Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
veejey
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 16
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 14:24

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby veejey » 05 Aug 2020 10:38

ramana wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Sir Kalyani had little experience of Arty before they went into it. I wish these guys get the support from a testing and knowledge share perspective. But alas...
I have been looking at their 5.56 carbine. I don't see why that could not come instead of the Caracal for support arms...After all we have the Sig for Frontline inf.



Kalyani bought the Austrian artillery maker Voest lock stock and barrel and moved the line ot India. Besides they make thousands of shell casings which are filled by OFB. So its not the same thing. And Kalyani makes the Top Gun fuze. Please searcch for that image.
BTW Voest gun was the chosen one by IA till Bofors came up with their scam.


This is a very good way of acquiring capabilities. We must encourage private companies for such acquisitions. With our non controversial standing in the international sphere, foreign governments will also not be averse to such takeovers.

Such companies must be rewarded with orders by our government.

VinodTK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2384
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 06 Aug 2020 03:47

At a time the Indian Army really needs it, comes more state-of-the-art military equipment
Times Now
ew Delhi: With the Ladakh face-off still on and no certainty about when it's likely to end, the Indian Army will get 73,000 Sig Sauer 716 assault rifles from the United States of America. This was today cleared by the Defence Ministry's Services Capital Acquisition Plan Categorisation Higher Committee (SCAPCHC), that includes top military officials and bureaucrats. The total cost for the rifles is about Rs 800 crore.

This is over and above the 72,400 assault rifles already purchased from Sig Sauer. As this Is a repeat order, there will be no need for trials and cost negotiation, which is often time-consuming.
:
:
:

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Aug 2020 03:24

Thakur_B wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Image

The OFB/ARDE carbine has been revealed. Would most certainly be visible during Defexpo 2020.
Image


Image

OFB-ARDE carbine.


Image

I wish best of luck to the designers. The carbine is machined instead of stamped sheet metal. My only gripe is that they should have gone for m4 style magazine well and stanag magazines with bolt catch open feature. Hoping to see at least one Indian weapon in IA frontline troops in future.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Aug 2020 03:32

Image
Sandeep Unnithan, India Today - Solar Industries have outbid OFB for production of Shivalik grenades.

Interestingly, this is the only small arm procurement where we are ahead of the curve against other major forces.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Aug 2020 03:56

The SSS Defence P-72 family of weapons looks very very promising. It seems to be built around a universal chassis and can be chambered for 5.56x45, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 with free floating barrels. Upper receiver is milled steel and bottom receiver is milled aluminium. Bravo !!

P-72 Recon Carbine (5.56x45 / 7.62x39) - 10" barrel length.
Image

P-72 DMR (7.62x39 / 7.62x51) 18"/20" Barrel length.
Image

P-72 RECR (Rapid Engagement Combat RIfle) (7.62x39 / 7.62x51) 16" Barrel length.
Image

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2934
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 07 Aug 2020 04:19

We will not buy small arms from the Private Sector for our defense forces. It is good that owners of all the small arms units being set up are all not counting on it and focusing on exports to other countries. They are hopeful though on getting some orders from the central and state police forces.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1505
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Aug 2020 04:56

Vips wrote:We will not buy small arms from the Private Sector for our defense forces. It is good that owners of all the small arms units being set up are all not counting on it and focusing on exports to other countries. They are hopeful though on getting some orders from the central and state police forces.

Vips - why will we not?
If the p-72 outperforms the the OFB CQB you are saying that the IA will choose the OFB product?

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 07 Aug 2020 04:58

ks_sachin wrote:
Vips wrote:We will not buy small arms from the Private Sector for our defense forces. It is good that owners of all the small arms units being set up are all not counting on it and focusing on exports to other countries. They are hopeful though on getting some orders from the central and state police forces.

Vips - why will we not?
If the p-72 outperforms the the OFB CQB you are saying that the IA will choose the OFB product?


That is rich considering IA's track record and assuming either of them even get invited to trials :rotfl:

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1505
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Aug 2020 06:18

Thakur_B wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Vips - why will we not?
If the p-72 outperforms the the OFB CQB you are saying that the IA will choose the OFB product?


That is rich considering IA's track record and assuming either of them even get invited to trials :rotfl:


Sirji I am an eternal optimist....

I actually quite like the p-72 family. Have spent the better part of last week trying to get more information on the family it definitely has better usability features than the OFB CQB which I fear is a rehash of the INSAS design.
I wish they could get the CQB more aesthetic looking....(I know I am shallow!!)

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 07 Aug 2020 06:36

IA has its sights set on the SIG-716 and the AK-203. The current border situation has even resulted in the order for the SIGs getting doubled it seems. These are straight imports, not even license manufacture. And I have seen no reports of SSS Defence weapons being tested by the Army, the publicity they have received notwithstanding.

If the government is serious about Atmanirbhar Bharat especially in the Defence arena, someone in the MoD needs to keep pace with what developments are occurring with private companies looking to invest in defence manufacturing, what are their challenges and how they can be helped by the government (providing testing facilities etc.) and getting them in for trials with the IA. None of this is happening or even being thought of. Are we actually any better today in this respect than the time when MoD refused Baba Kalyani permission to test his artillery gun on the IA's artillery range? I sincerely hope so.

Some laws and regulations will need to be changed to enable the MoD to help private companies out. Otherwise you end up in ridiculous situations like in the case of the APC procurement where since the Kestrel/WhAP is being built by a private company - Tata (even though it is in collaboration with the DRDO) we need a multi-vendor procurement with the American Stryker et al. involved instead of a straight up order for the WhAP. I am sure issues like these plague public-private cooperation in other areas of the defence industry as well and eventually result in our dream of self-reliance in defence remaining a dream.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Aug 2020 20:56

AFSOD gets new gear.

Image

dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 09 Aug 2020 21:31

^ looks like these 1000 rifles, 600 parachutes and 400 NVG sets will equip one batallion ( machine guns may be for the 5 Para SF battalions).

Also looks like other 16 para batallions will continue with AKs, Tavor and M4s.

Maybe the Commander is planning one US style batallion for whatever reasons.

amar_p
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby amar_p » 09 Aug 2020 22:46

Looks like IA wants to have as much variety in its stores as Walmart !

May be they want to get into the business of posting youtube review videos and make some money for the nation instead of wasting it.

dinesh_kimar
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 09 Aug 2020 22:56

No, what I meant was US style batallion wholly for Training and Doctrinal changes.

From hearsay, many of the Officers are US Ranger qualified, and some instructors are SEAL qualified, or have cross trained with SAS/ SEALS and Israel/ Russian/ French units .

So creation of a Red team/ opfor type unit , with rest of the paras rotated in for exercises with them to improve effectiveness.

This type of system is in the US Army, apparently enabled armoured units to perform exceedingly well in combat.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Aug 2020 00:35

amar_p wrote:Looks like IA wants to have as much variety in its stores as Walmart !

May be they want to get into the business of posting youtube review videos and make some money for the nation instead of wasting it.


Really ? Why is good equipment a heresy ? From all accounts these are all good equipment, being procured through g2g FMS deal. Indian SF is thoroughly lacking equipment wise. A few thousand tavors, a few thousand jacked up AKMs and a few thousand m4s are all that differentiate them from ordinary troops. We just have a few hundred PKMs in inventory. This is the status of our Special Forces.

Our SFs need to be tip of the spear. Currently our tier 1 forces, barring the NSG, are worse equipped than second rung forces from other major militaries. Even when equipment is available, it is throughly dated (previous general monocular NVGs compared to quad tube nvgs which are now commonplace in other tier 1 forces). One might ruminate that the SCAR is only marginally better than a modded AKM or that quad tube nvg is overkill, but we don't have enough equipment to equip all SF battalions, let alone Ghatak platoons. Any equipment purchase is good, no argument on that front. From the looks of it, this is just the first batch of equipment, hopefully more will follow as AFSOD gains momentum.

amar_p
BRFite
Posts: 507
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby amar_p » 10 Aug 2020 00:57

Good equipment is not the issue here. Endless hardware type multiplication.

more variety = more maintenance, training, supply chain and logistics challenges.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Aug 2020 01:07

Warning, 2019 video of piglets being sniped by Maratha LI, at least 3 dead.
https://twitter.com/YankieeKilo/status/ ... 8305265671
Can someone identify the rifle from the sound?

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Aug 2020 04:13

Osiris f17 being pitched by Kalyani group.

Image

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Aug 2020 08:01

SSS Defence P-72 RECR. Cannot figure out where the mag release mechanism is :-?

Image

Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2394
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 10 Aug 2020 17:44

Thakur_B wrote:Warning, 2019 video of piglets being sniped by Maratha LI, at least 3 dead.
https://twitter.com/YankieeKilo/status/ ... 8305265671
Can someone identify the rifle from the sound?


Doesn't seem like a dedicated bolt action rifle, or there are multiple shooters. Dragunov?

k prasad
BRFite
Posts: 785
Joined: 21 Oct 2007 17:38
Location: Somewhere over the Rainbow
Contact:

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby k prasad » 10 Aug 2020 19:54

Based on the distance, and the speed of shots, suggests a dragunov. You don't really hear the click-pull-reload-click of a bolt action rifle.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1505
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 10 Aug 2020 20:04

Thakur_B wrote:SSS Defence P-72 RECR. Cannot figure out where the mag release mechanism is :-?

Sir, I believe it is in the trigger guard at the bottom in front of the trigger.

pushkar.bhat
BRFite
Posts: 401
Joined: 29 Mar 2008 19:27
Location: prêt à monter dans le Arihant
Contact:

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby pushkar.bhat » 10 Aug 2020 20:10

Austrian artillery maker Voest was purchased by Kalyani's sometime in 2009 or 2010. They picked up the entire plant and shipped it to India. Took till about 2012-13 for it to be completely modernized from what I recollect.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Aug 2020 21:19

k prasad wrote:Based on the distance, and the speed of shots, suggests a dragunov. You don't really hear the click-pull-reload-click of a bolt action rifle.


I suspect the same. Volume of fire suggests 2 shooters. Could be accurate fire from Fn-Mag in semi auto too.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Aug 2020 21:31

ks_sachin wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:SSS Defence P-72 RECR. Cannot figure out where the mag release mechanism is :-?

Sir, I believe it is in the trigger guard at the bottom in front of the trigger.


That is an odd mag release paddle, difficult to get a finger on. This is an early prototype, hopefully it should change.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Aug 2020 21:33

Image

Insas production is not entirely dead. Latest INSAS Excalibur Mk1 with rails. If only they had introduced it back in early 2000s instead of late 2010s.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2934
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 11 Aug 2020 04:17

Insas are now good only (and that is the government plan) for replacing all the .303 with our ordinary policemen. The sooner it happens the better. It is a disgrace that the soldiers who put their lives on the line for the country have to wait for a replacement for more then 18 years after pointing out the glitches in this rifle.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 11 Aug 2020 04:39

Vips wrote:Insas are now good only (and that is the government plan) for replacing all the .303 with our ordinary policemen. The sooner it happens the better. It is a disgrace that the soldiers who put their lives on the line for the country have to wait for a replacement for more then 18 years after pointing out the glitches in this rifle.

Police depts. received a lot of 1A1 SLR's which the IA retired and which they used to replace many of the Lee-Enfields. All they have to do now is wait for the SIG's and AK's to start coming in and they will be able to mop up the IA's old stocks of the INSAS as they get replaced.

New build INSAS Excaliburs might be a good option for Paramilitary fores though. You already see some of them using those.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2934
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 11 Aug 2020 05:10

The SLR are no good in today's environment when you see ordinary criminals too using assault rifles in Mumbai, Punjab and in UP.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3137
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 11 Aug 2020 10:00

Thakur_B wrote:The SSS Defence P-72 family of weapons looks very very promising. It seems to be built around a universal chassis and can be chambered for 5.56x45, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 with free floating barrels. Upper receiver is milled steel and bottom receiver is milled aluminium. Bravo !!

I hope these guys get a fair trial and proper consideration. This actually meets the famous RFP that no one bid for. Anyways I hope they export instead of waiting for domestic orders

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3137
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 11 Aug 2020 10:09

Thakur_B wrote:AFSOD gets new gear.

Too little, max two Battalions. Not sure what benefits 5.56 SCAR-L brings over Tavor.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Aug 2020 10:33

tsarkar wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:AFSOD gets new gear.

Too little, max two Battalions. Not sure what benefits 5.56 SCAR-L brings over Tavor.


Marginal. But Scar-L will not replace Tavors, not right now. Having a conventional layout with similar ergonomics as M4, Scar-H, Sig-716 will marginally help in training.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1505
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 11 Aug 2020 11:57

Thakur_B wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Too little, max two Battalions. Not sure what benefits 5.56 SCAR-L brings over Tavor.


Marginal. But Scar-L will not replace Tavors, not right now. Having a conventional layout with similar ergonomics as M4, Scar-H, Sig-716 will marginally help in training.

Thakur sahab,

Thakur Sahab could it be that AFSOD core group of personnel drawn from SF / Marcos / Garuds others will standardise on this equipment while part of the AFSOD set up.

Which means that SF bns itself will not have an equipment change i.e. will continue with Tavors etc.

IF AFSOD is meant to be 3000 strong then I take it that there will be people on deputation here?


Sorry don't know enough so shooting in the dark...

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9507
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2020 18:45

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/129 ... 95426?s=20 ---> JUST IN: Indian MoD says it has accorded approvals that are “likely to speed up the procurement of AK-203”.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2934
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 11 Aug 2020 22:40

There has to be a signing ceremony/acquisition to add substance to Putin's visit to India in the last quarter of this Year. If not AK 203 then we will sign up for import of some other armaments from Russia.

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Aug 2020 22:53

At this point, I actually feel bad for ARDE/OFB. Just when they started innovating, they are being showed the door. the 7.62x51 AR-2 ws pretty decent attempt. The prototypes were shunned for high recoil issues. Looking at SiG716 and the old AR-2 videos, the recoil seems not that bad.


abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3061
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 11 Aug 2020 23:13

^^^
Is there a scientific way to qualify what "high recoil" is? Did they measure the value for the OFB design vs the Sig import?

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 11 Aug 2020 23:15

Thakur_B wrote:At this point, I actually feel bad for ARDE/OFB. Just when they started innovating, they are being showed the door. the 7.62x51 AR-2 ws pretty decent attempt. The prototypes were shunned for high recoil issues. Looking at SiG716 and the old AR-2 videos, the recoil seems not that bad.

I also feel sad for SSSDefence. Their products are unlikely to see service in the IA too. We haven't heard of them even being tested out.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54719
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Aug 2020 00:48

Looks like RNS is approving 14.5mm AMR.

Folks after a long time we are seeing even ARDE products being accepted.
These private folks will have their opportunity..

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1700
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Aug 2020 03:08

nachiket wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:At this point, I actually feel bad for ARDE/OFB. Just when they started innovating, they are being showed the door. the 7.62x51 AR-2 ws pretty decent attempt. The prototypes were shunned for high recoil issues. Looking at SiG716 and the old AR-2 videos, the recoil seems not that bad.

I also feel sad for SSSDefence. Their products are unlikely to see service in the IA too. We haven't heard of them even being tested out.


There is a recent stroy from THe Wire, which i am not linking here because I do not want to support their class of journalism, which informs that the Russians are asking for around $200 royalty for each AK203 rifle produced in India. ALso, the cost of AK203 manufactured in India is likely to be much higher than import from an already set up factory line in Russia.

ALso, it's been 2 years since Caracal downselect. 2 years was a sufficient enough timeline for IA to conduct round of procurement for remaining requirements of carbines. Now everybody in IA brass and MoD is running helter skelter because of cut off date of Dec 2021 for imprt of rifles/carbines.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ks_sachin, Vinod Ji and 52 guests