Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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Vips
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 09 Oct 2020 01:19

Srutayus wrote:The "OFB carbine" was actually designed by ARDE. Concerns about the manufacturing quality by OFB and product ownership between ARDE & OFB are still very pertinent, especially due to the INSAS experience.


Do we want a INSAS Redux in the Carbine program? For god sake please do not opt for OFB product. All the iterations of Insas (Excaliburs, Ghatak etc) and its latest development Amogh is just not upto the mark. If OFB is being given so many chances to prove its product then why not trial the P72 carbine from SSS?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 09 Oct 2020 01:53

All the iterations of Insas (Excaliburs, Ghatak etc) and its latest development Amogh is just not upto the mark.

Ghatak was the AKM copy not an INSAS variant.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Oct 2020 13:31

Vips wrote:
Srutayus wrote:The "OFB carbine" was actually designed by ARDE. Concerns about the manufacturing quality by OFB and product ownership between ARDE & OFB are still very pertinent, especially due to the INSAS experience.


Do we want a INSAS Redux in the Carbine program? For god sake please do not opt for OFB product. All the iterations of Insas (Excaliburs, Ghatak etc) and its latest development Amogh is just not upto the mark. If OFB is being given so many chances to prove its product then why not trial the P72 carbine from SSS?


VIPS ji, I agree with you that P72 RECR should be given a chance.

However, Excalibur was a significant improvement over INSAS and I remember reading that it fell short on only o e evaluation criteria among several. Insas Mk1C which superseded Excalibur almost got selected as the next service rifle, but by that time IA's love affair with 5.56x45 was over.

Amogh OTOH was a decent but niche product that got stymied due to OFBs issues with proprietary ammunition. OFB developed Amogh by themselves and sold a bunch of them to Coast Guard while the JVPC developed jointly with ARDE went through development purgatory.

Before Excalibur there was an attempt in the form of Kalantak carbine which tried to fix the Insas carbine design by addition of an expansion chamber attached to barrel. It was an innovative attempt which allowed the longer burn of 5.56x45 INSAS round by giving a longer burn time for gases inside the carbine to reduce to flash due to unburnt powder in shirt barrel. This was an alternative approach to how Russians mitigated flash on AK74U.

The new carbine looks promising and deserves a fair chance. Add a STANAG magazine compatible magwell and bolt catch open device and it might even snag a few export orders.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 09 Oct 2020 13:49

Give a chance to Indian private sector. People like SSS has some decent products including a carbine IIRC.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Rs_singh » 10 Oct 2020 12:04

So y’all have a 800yd rifle kitted out with a holosun sight good for 50yd at best and used for cqc ? Noice. Speaks volumes. On the flip side you have a white light on before the muzzle which makes a lot of sense. But no nods or n enabled eqpt. Still living in the good ole nam era.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Oct 2020 13:09

Rs_singh wrote:So y’all have a 800yd rifle kitted out with a holosun sight good for 50yd at best and used for cqc ?


16 inch barrel rifle with a practical accuracy of 400 meters will do well with a 4x add-on magnification scope.

Noice. Speaks volumes.


Stop being facetious. Very few militaries have standardized on holographic/red dot optics as standard issue, let alone with magnifiers. These are the first batch of rifles properly capable of mounting optics in IA service. Rifles are here, optics shall follow. RR units have been issued holographic, PNS and magnifier sights for a good while now.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 10 Oct 2020 13:28

Rs_singh wrote:So y’all have a 800yd rifle kitted out with a holosun sight good for 50yd at best and used for cqc ? Noice. Speaks volumes. On the flip side you have a white light on before the muzzle which makes a lot of sense. But no nods or n enabled eqpt. Still living in the good ole nam era.


Rs_singh: I see a snooty attitude of yours in the last couple of posts. Looks like you served with the U.S Army (based on your posts). Doesn't give you 2 horns and a pedestal to preach to others.

Its all fine & dandy for you guys to barge in and shoot civilians, call in reapers to blow up women & children, when you guys are in a hostile country. Try doing the same when you have White Americans, supported by a hostile local population blowing shit up and sniping you in Boise, Idaho. Lets see you bring in the reapers to bomb your own people.

Our forces take casualties because we are fighting terrorists who look like us & are mingled with our own people, many of whom are hostile. Yet, we do the decent thing of not blowing up innocents, even if it means we lose our braves.

So, pipe-down a bit, will you?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 10 Oct 2020 16:22

nachiket wrote:
All the iterations of Insas (Excaliburs, Ghatak etc) and its latest development Amogh is just not upto the mark.

Ghatak was the AKM copy not an INSAS variant.


Indeed and neither have I heard or read any criticism of Ghatak assault rifles till date. The same goes for Trichy assault rifle(TAR) as well. OFB has many flaws without doubt, but there are somethings where they are doing alright.

Anyways messing up a kalashnikov copy requires a special kind of incompetence which is probably beyond even OFB.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Paul » 10 Oct 2020 17:49

Prem Kumar wrote:.
.
.

Its all fine & dandy for you guys to barge in and shoot civilians, call in reapers to blow up women & children, when you guys are in a hostile country. Try doing the same when you have White Americans, supported by a hostile local population blowing shit up and sniping you in Boise, Idaho. Lets see you bring in the reapers to bomb your own people.
.
.
.
.

So, pipe-down a bit, will you?


They had the Waco, TX siege.....fine mess they made out of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Rs_singh » 10 Oct 2020 19:52

Thakur_B,

What magnification are you talking about with a holosun sight? A fixed or variable? To give you an example, we’ve had acgs/acog depending on service with the aurora reticle for near twenty years, tritium powered. Fixed 4X mag and reticle with red dot, windage and elevation. Pretty sure brits have a had a standard issue sight as you say it for near about same.

If I was to go about working on this rifle, I would pick a 8X-10x scope, minimal weight penalties. I would put an off set red dot. Pick one from vortex or something similar. Add a fore grip. Front mount IR/white light setup cause you never know when you would need a white light. Issue a suppressor to your SOF as sop. Those that have operated at night know how huge the muzzle flash is and how quickly it gives away your pos. I would issue pvs3s and go to work. Oh and reduced that barrel length to maybe 12-13in.

Prem kumar, relax. Don’t get your undies in a bundle. Collateral happens and folks are prosecuted and spend time in prison, some for life, I’m sure it’s the same there. As for domestic, the army doesn’t get involved. And will not get involved. Anyway, nothing in your post has anything to do with small arms.

In full disclosure, my dad, his before him, his before him and his before him were all IA. From a nobody risaldar in 2cav ww1, to jak li, to l scouts. When I make fun of the IA, lets say it’s a family affair and it’s all in good fun. Without them I would be nothing.
Last edited by Rs_singh on 10 Oct 2020 20:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby m_saini » 10 Oct 2020 20:21

From what I've seen in some of the videos, collateral was a bunch of isis guys :mrgreen:

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Rs_singh » 10 Oct 2020 20:44

M_saini,

Mistakes always happen and are regretted. We go out of our way to do our best within reason. That being said, we absolutely decimated those savages in under a year. Now let’s see where the hydra rears it’s head next.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby souravB » 10 Oct 2020 20:47

darshhan wrote:Anyways messing up a kalashnikov copy requires a special kind of incompetence which is probably beyond even OFB.

There are miriad of ways AK clones can be messed up. Some of which are not outside the ambit of OFB. It could be overweight, rattling due to poor form-fitting, highly particular bullet feed mechanism, metallurgy etc. There is a reason PA doesn't buy their AKs from DAK.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 10 Oct 2020 21:08

SSS defence has offered an upgrade for Dragunov rifles:
-Will bring down recoil with a new tactical butt stock and adjustable cheek rest
-New muzzle break for reduced flash
-A new bipod for more stability
-Full length picatinny rail to equip thermal sight and laser range finder

Indian Army has issued a RFP for first upgrading 90 units. Total number of Dragunov's with Indian army is 7000.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 11 Oct 2020 11:40

==== post edited out ====
Last edited by suryag on 11 Oct 2020 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: needless post deleted

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Bharadwaj » 11 Oct 2020 13:12

Any progress for the ARDE 6.8 * 43 AR? The import of the SIG in larger numbers probably kills any future for this rifle with the IA.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Rs_singh » 11 Oct 2020 18:49

=== post edited out ===
Last edited by suryag on 11 Oct 2020 19:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: RS singh banned for a week

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 12 Oct 2020 07:25

Bharadwaj wrote:Any progress for the ARDE 6.8 * 43 AR? The import of the SIG in larger numbers probably kills any future for this rifle with the IA.

IA has expressed its preference for the full power .308 cartridge with the SIG 716 order and the 7.62x39 with the AK deal. Any new firearm chambered in 6.8mm Remington is DoA in the IA now. I would have said the same thing about 5.56 but the Carbines they were looking for were 5.56 so what do I know.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 12 Oct 2020 08:04

Bharadwaj wrote:Any progress for the ARDE 6.8 * 43 AR? The import of the SIG in larger numbers probably kills any future for this rifle with the IA.


IA will wait for massa to pick a 6.8 crtridge first. Massa is not going for regular 6.8 cartridge, but rather thay have asked arm makers to come up with both a new cartridge and a gun. SiG is leading the race as their cartridge type is closest to conventional brass case ammunition and can be made over existing ammunition production lines. Instead of using just Brass, SiG 6.8 mm ammunition uses combination of brass and steel allowing increase in pressure by a factor of 25%. That is a big deal as it will make the newer 6.8 cartridge more powerful than 7.62x51.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Bharadwaj » 12 Oct 2020 18:17

Thakur_B wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:Any progress for the ARDE 6.8 * 43 AR? The import of the SIG in larger numbers probably kills any future for this rifle with the IA.


IA will wait for massa to pick a 6.8 crtridge first. Massa is not going for regular 6.8 cartridge, but rather thay have asked arm makers to come up with both a new cartridge and a gun. SiG is leading the race as their cartridge type is closest to conventional brass case ammunition and can be made over existing ammunition production lines. Instead of using just Brass, SiG 6.8 mm ammunition uses combination of brass and steel allowing increase in pressure by a factor of 25%. That is a big deal as it will make the newer 6.8 cartridge more powerful than 7.62x51.


ARDE needs to innovate around any patent that SIG has and develop a round and rifle with similar performance before the IA wants a piece of the newest and bestest. When IA decide they want a piece of the 6.8 action a design that meets every super duper criteria needs to be ready to pass all tests. Note I am not in any way advocating for OFB to produce such a weapon. Perhaps a Pinaka like arrangement. Oh well I need to stop dreaming.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Oct 2020 02:19

Can anyone please tell me the standard issue optics for rifles in the US army?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Oct 2020 06:28


ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Oct 2020 07:20

ramana wrote:You should be able to google that.

https://taskandpurpose.com/military-tec ... ast%20week.


Ramana garu I am not interested in snpiers. What scope does the average GI with a M4 get?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby k prasad » 13 Oct 2020 08:35

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:You should be able to google that.

https://taskandpurpose.com/military-tec ... ast%20week.


Ramana garu I am not interested in snpiers. What scope does the average GI with a M4 get?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimpoint_CompM2

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Oct 2020 09:01

Currently US forces use Trijicon ACOG sight with 4x magnification as standard issue.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Oct 2020 10:21

How do they compare to the BEL sight?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Oct 2020 22:53

Thakur_B wrote:Image
Dragunov Retrofit by SSS Defence.


Video of Dragunov upgrade package.
https://twitter.com/sssdefence/status/1 ... 7660731394

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Oct 2020 08:48

Thakur_B wrote:https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/09/14/breaking-c-g-haenel-wins-tender-for-the-german-g36-successor/

CG Haenel Mk556 (short stroke piston AR) has apparently emerged as a winner of German G36 replacement program.

HK participated with HK416 and HK433 (Ar180 derivative). Rheinmetall and Steyr participated with RS556 (another HK416 style short stroke piston AR).

CG Haenel is owned by the same parent company which own Caracal.

This is the first time Bundeswehr has chosen any other firm than HK. This is a very sobering loss of HK who have established themselves as a high cost high end manufacturer.


Bundeswehr has withdrawn the order to CG Haenel over patent infringement complaint by HK.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby wig » 14 Oct 2020 10:28

https://thewire.in/security/indian-army ... oc-feature
Snipers Only Shoot to Kill
Indian forces have traditionally neglected the sophisticated weapons, but the Army, ITBP and NSG are seeking to swiftly acquire them before the end-December deadline foreclosing the import of sniper rifles kicks in.

excerpts
All four overseas vendors declined to bid on the grounds that transferring technology for the ammunition for a mere 4.6 million rounds was ‘commercially unviable’. The proposed delivery schedule of the rifles – 5,507 for the Army and 212 for the IAF’s Garud Commando force – stipulated by the MoD too posed glitches. The tender had required the shortlisted manufacturer to deliver the first lot of 707 rifles within six months of the contract being signed, and the remaining 4,472 supplied in batches of 1,200 units each over the next 30 months, unaware that such distinct weapons are not bulk-produced.

“The RfP was badly conceived, particularly with regard to the ammunition component, leaving the MoD no choice but to withdraw it,” said Brigadier Rahul Bhonsle (retd), director of Security Risks Asia, a New Delhi-based defence management consultancy. A follow-on RfP is likely to be issued sometime soon, he added.

A previous sniper rifle tender in 2009-2010 was similarly terminated due to the Army’s laughable and amateurish qualitative requirements (QRs) drawn up for them, that failed in mandating accuracy standards at a minimum range of 800 metres and absurdly required them to be fitted with a bayonet.

It was incomprehensible to the handful of vendors to determine why the rifle, purposed for employment at a distance of over 800 metres, needed a bayonet that is normally used by infantry soldiers in close combat. The unclear RfP also failed to differentiate between a bolt action or semi-automatic sniper rifle model, a critical QR determinant

training
They lack adequate training, suitable weaponry and specialised supplementary paraphernalia like accurate imported Match ammunition, hand-held laser range finders, night sights and related hardware, essential to accomplish this highly skilled and deathly mission. Army shooters were routinely issued inefficient OFB-produced ammunition, which experts dismissed as ‘wholly inaccurate’ and one that defeated the very purpose of sniping.

All that is required of the army’s Non-Commissioned Officer (NCO) snipers is merely good marksmanship, and one that gets them temporarily tasked with sniping in careers spanning variegated assignments. Not for them the kudos, fearful glamour or mystique attached to snipers in foreign armies or the espirit d corps of belonging to an elite band.

‘No attempt at building up the ethos’

A special badge to boost the snipers’ image, similar to what prevailed in other world armies, was introduced in the late 1990s by army chief General S. Padmanabhan, but was withdrawn soon after, as it proved unworkable. Earning the prestigious badge required three confirmed sniper kills. But senior officers said non-snipers or part-time snipers, using assault and other rifles, frequently claimed the designated scalps, thereby becoming eligible for the insignia, which was considered improper.

And with the insignia’s abandonment went whatever fleeting support there had been from the Army Headquarters in promoting the tactical efficaciousness of snipers and establishing a dedicated corps of military ‘hit men’ who potentially can alter, not only the course of battles and politics, but also history with their kills.

“There has been no attempt at building up the ethos of sniping in the army or any of the other security agencies barring some Special Forces units, the NSGs Special Action Group (SAG) and the Special Group (SG) of the shadowy Special Frontier Force (SFF),” lamented a retired three-star special forces officer. Training of infantry snipers remains rudimentary, he declared, adding that their skilful employment can impose caution, cause attrition and demoralise the enemy.

more training issues
The Indian Army treats sniping training cursorily. Two man sniper teams – the shooter and his interchangeable buddy or spotter – attend 4-6 weeks elementary and inadequate training capsules at the Infantry School at Mhow in Madhya Pradesh. Unlike in India, the latter in foreign armies is an equally skilled marksman but one who specialises in target and atmospheric observation, handling location security and communications and, in some instances even directing artillery fire and close air support from forward positions.

This instruction at Mhow includes a combination of firing practice and rudimentary attempts to mentally attune the marksman and his buddy to patiently await their quarry through aerobic and yoga lessons and breathing exercises to enhance concentration. Professional snipers abroad, however, are tutored, amongst other rigours, in the art of camouflage and deception, trained to stop breathing and reduce their heartbeats to the barest minimum whilst firing, as even the minutest unsynchronised twitch or movement can prove calamitous in securing their target. They are also trained to control their bladders and Pakistan’s Pathan tribesmen, who were considered by the British as the world’s most patient and competent snipers, use leaves to urinate so as not to make a noise or leave any tell-tale sign of their presence.

Despite a tradition of mythological marksmen like Dronacharya and Arjuna, the Army also had no nucleus of sniper instructors, as none had been nurtured as no foreign, friendly military was willing to instruct Indian soldiers in this speciality. The handful of NSG shooters who, some years ago had undergone sniping instruction abroad in countries like Israel, were too few in number to institutionally amplify this expertise in any meaningful manner. And the first two special forces officers who, after much negotiation and persuasion, attended a snipers intervention course in France in the late 1970s, with the intent of returning home on specialised appointment, were soon diverted to other assignments that did not require their newly acquired skills.



Bolt-action vs semi-automatic-recoil rifles
Meanwhile, in professional sniping circles, the rivalry between a bolt-action and a semi-automatic-recoil or gas operated-sniper rifle has never been satisfactorily resolved, and it’s unlikely it ever will. Experts maintain both types had operational advantages and disadvantages and that large numbers of each kind had been inducted for military and law enforcement tasks around the world.

Users claim that the bolt-action sniper rifle, considered by many shooters as the ‘purist’s’ weapon, is easier to maintain, more reliable, accurate and lighter and with fewer moving parts in its mechanism, is easy to assemble. Whilst firing, its only moving parts were the pin and spring, greatly mitigating any chance of either a malfunction, or any of its rounds being thrown off target.

But some Western, particularly US Army snipers aver that semi-automatic sniping rifles had a definite tactical advantage over the bolt action model. They reason that fundamentally with a semi-automatic rifle, the shooter can keep his eye on the target through his telescope, if a second shot is needed, which he could immediately take.

In contrast, the bolt-action rifle shooter can do one of two things when he misses: chamber a new round into the breech, taking his eye off his objective, thus temporarily losing sight of it; or alternately, continue to observe his target and then cycle the bolt later, but once again crucially losing sight of it. Either way, the bolt-action rifle marksman is unable to take a follow-up shot instantly with the necessary sight correction, by which time his quarry – in all probability, alerted to the danger – shifts or worse, disappears.

Specialists claimed that because of this drawback, many militaries and law enforcement agencies worldwide have switched to semi-automatic sniper rifles, due largely to the rapidity of firing additional, follow-up rounds without reloading. A police semi-automatic sniper rifle, for instance, can be used in situations requiring a single shooter to engage multiple targets in quick succession; his military equivalent can be equally effective using this model in a target-rich environment.


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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Oct 2020 21:31

https://theprint.in/defence/indian-army ... de/520538/

Why is the Army looking at upgrading DSRs?
According to sources, the barrel of a DSR can easily fire up to 7,000 rounds and most have not done more than 3,000 each.

“This means that the rifle still has a long life ahead. It may not be a sniper weapon in the present day, but it is still a decent squad ‘Designated Marksman Rifle’ or DMR. The Army will easily take a few years to acquire and induct a more lethal sniper weapon with effective ranges of 1.2 km and above,” a second source said.
:eek:

Merely 3000 rounds for rifles that have been decades into service. Sniper training obviously isn't getting the attention it deserves.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 15 Oct 2020 03:23

Lots of whines. Basically they want counter insurgency needs to dominate battle filed requirements. And so many anonymous sources!

And since 2019 most terrorists are shot with head wounds from pictures posted.

So tell me the DSR is not good enough.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Oct 2020 04:14

ramana wrote:Lots of whines. Basically they want counter insurgency needs to dominate battle filed requirements. And so many anonymous sources!

And since 2019 most terrorists are shot with head wounds from pictures posted.

So tell me the DSR is not good enough.


Sirji. I don't think that is a whine. The DSR is due an update and the SSS defence update is a good one. TErrorist pictures may show headwounds but I would not say all of these are because of an engagement with a Dragunov. In any case at distance are you going to be aiming at the head or at the torso. The experts can correct me.
The battlefield requirements are different and we need to consider this as separate sniper dedicated rifle with the attendant focus on creating a sniping speciality in the army. At the LoC, there are definitely areas where a longer range weapon would be great.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 15 Oct 2020 04:25

The SSS initiative is good.
Adds more usability to the rifles as they still have atleast 2/5 life left.

It's a whine still when our soldiers are taught yoga but Western instructors teach breathing techniques.

Any way I wrote what I felt.
Thanks.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Oct 2020 05:23

ramana wrote:The SSS initiative is good.
Adds more usability to the rifles as they still have atleast 2/5 life left.

It's a whine still when our soldiers are taught yoga but Western instructors teach breathing techniques.

Any way I wrote what I felt.
Thanks.

Apologies sir. I thought you were referencing the print article....

I have yet to take exception to what you have posted - that continues then.

However we do need a dedicated sniping competency.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 15 Oct 2020 08:08

ks_sachin wrote:How do they compare to the BEL sight?

BEL sight is a holographic sight with no magnification. It will be easier to aim with and use in CQB but worse at long range than the ACOG. The BEL sight is suboptimal for a rifle with a long barrel firing a 7.62x51mm round but still, magnification or not it is much better than using flip up iron sights.

If RR gets the new AK-203, they would benefit immensely if it comes with the BEL sight. The new AK's have standard picatinny rails on top so it shouldn't be much of a problem. The MoD will have to shell out the money for the sights though, which knowing the MoD....

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 18 Oct 2020 19:30

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 724797.cms

With over 380 infantry and 63 Rashtriya Rifles battalions, the Army requires around 9.5 lakh assault rifles, 4.6 lakh CQB carbines and over 57,000 light machine guns (LMGs).


The door for any OFB 7.62x51 rifle is shut. 4.3 lakh carbines and AK203 for everyone else.

I still believe AK308 would have been a better choice than 203 being based on newer AK15 platform and sharing ammunition with Sig716.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 19 Oct 2020 02:52

Army pushes ahead with plan to equip infantry soldiers with modern weapons.

The Army is now firmly pushing ahead with its long-delayed roadmap to induct new assault ries, close-quarter battle carbines and light machine guns to arm infantry soldiers after several setbacks over the last decade. The overall requirement for these basic weapons for foot-soldiers, who are often forgotten in the race to acquire howitzers, tanks, missiles, helicopters and the like, is huge for the over 12-lakh strong force.

With over 380 infantry and 63 Rashtriya Ries battalions, the Army requires around 9.5 lakh assault rifles, 4.6 lakh CQB carbines and over 57,000 light machine guns (LMGs).

“Some emergency procurements from abroad as a critical operational necessity are already underway. Bulk of the requirements will be met by `Make in India’ projects with foreign collaboration,” said a senior officer.

For starters, amidst the ongoing military confrontation with China, the contract for the second lot of 72,000 SiG Sauer assault rifles from the US is set to be inked by December.

The Army has already inducted 72,400 SiG Sauer rifles, which are 7.62x51 mm caliber guns with an effective “kill” range of 500-meter, for frontline troops under a Rs 647 crore fast-track procurement (FTP) deal inked in February last year.

Simultaneously, the Army wants the stalled ‘Make in India’ project to manufacture over seven lakh Kalashnikov AK-203 rifles, at the Korwa ordnance factory in Uttar Pradesh with Russian collaboration, to take ffo as soon as possible.

“The requirement for longer range assault rifles has been met through the over 1.4 lakh SiG Sauer rifles. We do not require the 7.62x51mm rifle prototype developed by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which has time, quality and pricing issues,” said another officer.

“The 7.62x39 mm caliber AK-203 rflies (with an effective range of 300-meter) will take care of the remaining requirement,” he added.

The deliveries of 16,479 Israeli Negev 7.62X51 mm LMGs, in turn, will begin from January under a Rs 880 crore deal inked in March this year. “Four to five companies have already been shortlisted for the subsequent project to manufacture the rest of the LMGs here. The trials will begin early next year,” he said. It is also learnt that the OFB has also shown interest in this project (bloody jokers).

The RFP (request for proposal) to manufacture 4.6 lakh CQB carbines in India will also be issued early next year. This comes after an earlier FTP procurement to buy 93,895 such carbines from UAE firm Caracal was scrapped recently. “Four to five foreign companies, including Caracal, have expressed interest. They can tie-up with OFB or private companies here,” he said. (WTF-OFB?)

All this, of course, will take a lot of doing. The contract to manufacture the AK-203 rifles through the JV between OFB and Rosoboronexport-Kalashnikov, which was set up in February 2019, for instance, is still stuck due to costing issues, as was reported by TOI earlier.

The Army had first asked for new assault rifles and CQB carbines way back in 2005, while the case for LMGs was initiated in 2009. But the long-drawn procurement projects were repeatedly scrapped due to graft allegations or unrealistic technical parameters as well as the lack of indigenous options for well over a decade.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby mody » 20 Oct 2020 16:18

Would like to see the Carbine order going to OFB. The ARDE design is supposed to be good and giving this order to OFB, will keep them quite. Strict quality control should be followed and OFB should be held accountable if they screw up.

Hope the LMG order for additional 40K odd guns goes to the likes of SSS defense for a belt fed 7.62x51 LMG.
The AK-203 will equip the RR and the remaining infantry battalions. Additional 72K odd 7.62x51 rifles would be required. Either get the Indian private sector to come up with a product or simply place an additional order with Sig.

CRPF can be equipped with TAR. It is supposed to be better than Ghatak and a decent copy of AK. No major complaints have been received about TAR as yet. BSF can be equipped with Excalibur, 5.56x45 rifles along with a mix of AK-203 and TAR.
Dragunov should be upgraded with the SSS defense solution and once IA gets new sniper rifles, the Dragunov's can be offered to the various police forces around the country. Alternatively the Police can opt for OFB Ishapore 7.62x51 sniper rifles.
The Police forces can also opt for the ARDE carbine for higher firepower.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 20 Oct 2020 23:21

SSS Defence has no belt fed LMG design yet. It has several Assault Rifle, Carbine and Sniper Rifle designs. The LMG order should go to the Negev NG-7. There is already an initial order for it: https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/03 ... eguns.html.

Only 16k out of 40k, but it makes sense to order the same gun for the entire order to simplify logistics and training and perhaps license produce it in India like the FN-MAG. Like the article says, Punj Lloyd once had plans to produce IWI weapons at its factory near Gwalior. That could be revived.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 21 Oct 2020 03:32

Punj Lloyd (PLR) has been taken over by Adani so good chances they will bag the order for the remaining 40K LMG's.


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