Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 28 Jan 2021 09:57

7.62x39 carbines aren't particularly successful. The cartridge doesn't lend itself well to short barrels. The range and accuracy are heavily compromised. The recoil jump is severe as well.

The less is said about Army's choice of ammunition the better it is. The only consensus is that there is no perfect round for all roles. Regardless of current procurement, Army will make the jump to 6.8 mm at the first chance it gets when the logistics pains bite. I give it 10 years tops.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Jan 2021 10:27

Thanks.

Meanwhile a US base installs an ultrasonic cleaning system for rifles and saves time and effort.

https://www.stripes.com/news/europe/spa ... y-1.659153


The custom-made machines and cleaning solvent supplies used at Spangdahlem cost $47,500. They’re projected to save some 15,000 personnel hours by the time all the rifles have been cleaned once — about $945,000 in reduced labor costs.

More than 400 weapons have been cleaned since the tanks arrived in September, Deconnick said last month.

“It’s literally shaking … the Cosmoline out of every single crevice,” he said. “Every single one of them has passed the combat arms inspection. Every single one.”

A four-person crew can run 12 rifles through every two hours. They're expected to finish cleaning all the rifles early this year.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 28 Jan 2021 10:32

Thakur_B wrote:7.62x39 carbines aren't particularly successful. The cartridge doesn't lend itself well to short barrels. The range and accuracy are heavily compromised. The recoil jump is severe as well.

The less is said about Army's choice of ammunition the better it is. The only consensus is that there is no perfect round for all roles. Regardless of current procurement, Army will make the jump to 6.8 mm at the first chance it gets when the logistics pains bite. I give it 10 years tops.


So Baby TAR is good enough carbine for RR regiments.

Wish they give up hankering for some catalog product.if the bought a 3rd tranche early on don't have to worry.
Now with regime change in US who knows.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 28 Jan 2021 11:16

AK200 family can be made on the same production line with common parts. There is a carbine variant in 200 family as well.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 28 Jan 2021 12:34

This thing has a shorter barrel than the JVPC while firing a much more powerful round. I don't even want to imagine the accuracy and recoil. What is the use case for RR to be using such a weapon? The only use I can imagine for this is a sidearm for Vehicle crews doing the job the Sterling used to do once. I don't think OFB was looking at the carbine requirement of RR or regular IA inf battalions. If they did, they would not have cut the barrel all the way down to 8.3 inches.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 29 Jan 2021 04:25

Thakur_B wrote:7.62x39 carbines aren't particularly successful. The cartridge doesn't lend itself well to short barrels. The range and accuracy are heavily compromised. The recoil jump is severe as well.

The less is said about Army's choice of ammunition the better it is. The only consensus is that there is no perfect round for all roles. Regardless of current procurement, Army will make the jump to 6.8 mm at the first chance it gets when the logistics pains bite. I give it 10 years tops.


What a fiasco......

On another note and news about the SSS defence weapons Thakur sahab?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ashishvikas » 29 Jan 2021 10:43

Indian Army gets 6,000 new Israeli Light Machine Guns

The Indian Army received the first consignment of 6,000 Israeli Negev Light Machine Guns out of the 16,000 ordered last year under the Fast Track Procedure.

The remaining guns are expected to be delivered by March, sources added.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2021-01-29

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 29 Jan 2021 11:31

16,000 Negev's were ordered before things heated up at the LAC. Plus the original requirement was for 40,000 LMG's. So would more be ordered?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 29 Jan 2021 13:30

Army can do a SiG like move and order same quantity at same rates thus closing any move by OFB. With 2/3rd of quantity met, they can order piecemeal from commander funds to make up the remaining quantity justifying commonality with existing setup as per GFR.

Besides PLR makes them locally, so if forced to go through RFP, PLR stands a good chance at winning.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 29 Jan 2021 23:24

No chances of getting the additional LMG's anytime soon.

Under government's 'Make in India' initiative, rest of the requirement of the Indian Army is being met by Indian industry and currently is at pre-trial stage."Field Evaluation Trial (FET) scheduled this month," sources said. :roll:

So pre trials then post trials then summer trials then winter trials -----> modifications suggested --->Repeat.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 29 Jan 2021 23:57

You have it wrong!

1. Pre-trials
2. Trials
3. Post trials
4. High altitude trials
5. Desert trials
6. Trials just for the heck of trials
7. Trials because we can ask for as many as we want.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Uttam » 30 Jan 2021 00:34

Novice alert:

Why do they schedule these trails in a sequence. Why not in parallel? Do they have try the same weapon in desert and then on glaciers?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby vimal » 30 Jan 2021 01:02

For completeness sake:

1. Pre-trials
2. Trials
3. Spring trials
4. Summer trials
5. Monsoon trials
6. Autumn trials
7. Winter trials
8. High altitude trials
9. Desert trials
10. Swamp trials
11. Trials just for the heck of trials
12. Trials because we can ask for as many as we want.

And soon to be introduced after ISRO mission's recent successes:

13. Space trials
14. Moon trials
15. Mars trials

After all these the most important one

17. Post trials

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jan 2021 05:52

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 45416?s=20 ---> Indian Army has received the first consignment of 6,000 Israeli IWI Negev NG7 Light Machine Guns. Another 10,000 to be delivered in coming months. Initial ones likely going to Army Northern Command.

Image

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jan 2021 05:54

https://twitter.com/RKSharm15849483/sta ... 78563?s=20 --->

It's right time to reshare these pics....

7.62x51mm LMG NEGEVs are stacked and ready to be delivered to our frontline soldiers...

Image

Image

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby sooraj » 04 Feb 2021 22:07

Image

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 06 Feb 2021 06:33

Russia’s state arms seller to ink deal on delivering latest AK-203 assault rifles to India

BANGALORE /India/, February 4. /TASS/. Russia’s state arms seller Rosoboronexport (part of the state tech corporation Rostec) has prepared a contract for signing with India on the delivery of the latest 7.62mm AK-203 assault rifles, Rosoboronexport told TASS at the Aero India 2021 international aerospace show on Thursday.

"The contract for the delivery of Kalashnikov AK-203 assault rifles to the Defense Ministry of India by the Russian-Indian joint venture Indo-Russian Private Rifles Limited has been worked out and is ready for signing," the state arms exporter said.

The contract may be signed in the immediate future, Rosoboronexport said. "We hope this will happen in the near future," the company said.

Russia is demonstrating the external outlook of the AK-203 assault rifle designated for the Indian Army for the first time at the Aero India 2021 exhibition. Compared to the baseline AK-203 version, the assault rifle designated for the Indian Army has a fixed side-folding butt. The empty assault rifle weighs 3.8 kg, has a rate of fire of 700 rounds per minute and an accuracy range of 800 m. The AK-203 assault rifle intended for the Indian Amy is equipped with a Picatinny rail and has a barrel length of 415 mm.
:
:
:

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 06 Feb 2021 07:00

Still

The contract may be signed in the immediate future, Rosoboronexport said. "We hope this will happen in the near future," the company said.

Maybe signed in immediate future.

Russian delay even products made in India!!!

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 08 Feb 2021 09:39

https://www.deccanherald.com/amp/state/ ... 48750.html

BEL has tied up with Beretta for manufacture of CQB carbines.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 08 Feb 2021 22:24

Thakur_B wrote:https://www.deccanherald.com/amp/state/bel-signs-mou-with-beretta-italy-948750.html

BEL has tied up with Beretta for manufacture of CQB carbines.


How is an ELECTRONICS company an appropriate partner for Beretta to manufacture small arms? :-? Shouln't Beretta have partnered with the OFB instead?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Feb 2021 11:16

Image

Ishapore 5.56x45 carbine. This is different from arde ofb carbine which has a distinct upper / lower receiver configuration.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby jamwal » 12 Feb 2021 17:25

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-02-12

Indian Army embarks on a new hunt for carbines
The Indian Army has issued a fresh Request for Information (RFI) for a fast-track procurement of 93,895 carbines. This comes five months after the defence ministry revoked the case for procuring a similar number of carbines under the Fast-Track Procedure (FTP).

The RFIs were issued on February 10 to multiple Indian and global manufacturers, including Caracal, Colt, SiG Sauer, Beretta, Thales and Adani Defence. In 2018, UAE gun maker Caracal’s CAR 816 carbine had emerged as the lowest bidder in the FTP initiated by the Indian Army for a new compact weapon to replace its World War 2 vintage 9 mm 1A1 ‘Sterling’ carbine. As before, the army wants the new carbine chambered for the 5.56x45 mm cartridge. At just a single page, the army’s new RFI is far simpler compared to its three-page RFI in 2018. The service aims to procure the weapons within a year of the contract signing. The size of this deal is not yet known, but if one were to make estimation from Caracal’s 2018 bid, then it would likely be upwards of $110 million (over Rs 800 crore).


:rotfl:

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 13 Feb 2021 05:18

Bloody Jokers. Just when you think the bureaucracy will stop and common sense will prevail. What do you get - Face Palm

But then what do we know? Old babus are retiring and the new batch of incoming nincompoops needs to be trained in the fine art of:
-Notating remarks on proposal file on page 16, para 12, sub para iv, line number 6 citing policy provision amendment # 72.
-Gulping Chai, Biskut & Samosa's.
-Creating excuse for doing Videsh yatra's.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 13 Feb 2021 05:27

Maybe the only fix for this is to put more funds directly in the control of the Army leadership in the form of emergency purchase funds.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby AkshaySG » 13 Feb 2021 07:40

Bart S wrote:Maybe the only fix for this is to put more funds directly in the control of the Army leadership in the form of emergency purchase funds.


In terms of small arms army leadership itself is quite confused tbh ... They still can't decide on a specific ammunition , They still can't finalize which particular weapon system they prefer , What the future Indian infantry soldier should be equipped with , There is rarely any constructive feedback on the variety of carbine and assault rifle designs that OFB and private players have come up with , just a variety of hold cold, high ,low etc tests and nothing goes anywhere , emergency purchase funds will get us a few more tranches of Sigs and Negevs but this time next year we'll be back on the same old

RFP-> Bids->evaluation->Negotiation->Delay->New RFP cycle

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 13 Feb 2021 09:21

If the Army's leadership is unable to come up with a specific set of requirements for the next decade. Perhaps a better way could be to standardise the weapons operations principles and then tailor the system to different ammunition types.

It would atleast simplify the training of men.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Feb 2021 10:03

Still going for emergency procurement and not the entire deal. PLR, MKU, OFB, SSSD, BEL are tying up with manufacturers or coming up with new designs. This is sad.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 13 Feb 2021 11:11

Given terrain, Coin requirements we cannot standardize we would need 2 3 typesof ammo based on open area fighting or close quarter combat. The odd one out seems to special forces using 5.45 ×45.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby srin » 13 Feb 2021 11:52

Vips wrote:Bloody Jokers. Just when you think the bureaucracy will stop and common sense will prevail. What do you get - Face Palm

But then what do we know? Old babus are retiring and the new batch of incoming nincompoops needs to be trained in the fine art of:
-Notating remarks on proposal file on page 16, para 12, sub para iv, line number 6 citing policy provision amendment # 72.
-Gulping Chai, Biskut & Samosa's.
-Creating excuse for doing Videsh yatra's.


Why is this a babu problem ?

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby AkshaySG » 13 Feb 2021 11:52

Aditya_V wrote:Given terrain, Coin requirements we cannot standardize we would need 2 3 typesof ammo based on open area fighting or close quarter combat. The odd one out seems to special forces using 5.45 ×45.


Standardize doesn't necessarily mean using just one ammo all throughout... It just means deciding and prescribing and set of rules which would govern the purchasing and use of those materials

They could very well have one set ammo for COIN, Another type for regular infantry and 3rd type for some other situation but these "standards" then need to be clearly laid out and followed so that procurement can be streamlined

Right now if you go ask Army leadership which ammo they'd prefer for COIN operation I don't think you get a consensus answer...

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 13 Feb 2021 13:58

srin wrote:Why is this a babu problem ?

Whether we agree with it or not, the Caracal carbine had been selected as per established procedure when they emerged the lowest bidder. Yet the babus managed to scuttle the deal starting the whole process again. One has to wonder if they do it just to create work for themselves and increase their own importance.

When it comes to Small Arms procurment it is truly a "Is hamam me sab nange hai" scenario. Army, OFB, MoD, DRDO all have contributed to creating this mess in their own way.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby mody » 13 Feb 2021 15:28

As the report about the new RFP states, the Caracal though the lowest bidder, turned out to be more expensive than the Sig 716i. Also no ToT or offsets or local content. Hence, going forward was difficult. Now caracal has offered ToT and local production with upto 70% indigenization. The prices ought to come down. The report does not mention the RFP having gone to OFB or SSS defence. For Indian vendors only mentions Adani. Thats odd.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Feb 2021 16:13

Adani small arms business was taken over by PLR.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Bart S » 13 Feb 2021 18:02

Thakur_B wrote:Adani small arms business was taken over by PLR.

Other way around I think. Adani owns a controlling stake in PLR. PLR license manufacture IWI small arms.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Feb 2021 19:14

mody wrote:As the report about the new RFP states, the Caracal though the lowest bidder, turned out to be more expensive than the Sig 716i. Also no ToT or offsets or local content. Hence, going forward was difficult. Now caracal has offered ToT and local production with upto 70% indigenization. The prices ought to come down. The report does not mention the RFP having gone to OFB or SSS defence. For Indian vendors only mentions Adani. Thats odd.


The SiG 716 deal was really a once in a lifetime deal. High quality AR pattern rifles like that sell at almost double the price in US civilian market at which we purchased SiG 716.

SiG may be offering MCX for the carbine tender, which if they price aggressively will be a wonderful addition.

SiG is also offering a variant of MCX for NGSW program of US army in 6.8 mm.


Bart S wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Adani small arms business was taken over by PLR.

Other way around I think. Adani owns a controlling stake in PLR. PLR license manufacture IWI small arms.


I believe you are right.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby jamwal » 13 Feb 2021 19:37

Good article
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/spec ... 2021-02-13

The firearms trap
India's armed forces suffer due to crippling dependence on whimsical global weapons manufacturers. Behind the crisis is the country's flawed firearms production-acquisition policy and low R&D.

IN June 2020, as India’s special forces were planning a countermove against China’s heavy military mobilisation in Ladakh, one of their units was facing a critical weapons shortage. Belgian small arms manufacturer FN Herstal (FNH) walked out of a contract to supply some 1,500 small arms to the Special Frontier Force (SFF), a covert paramilitary unit under the cabinet secretariat. The estimated Rs 70 crore contract for P90 carbines and SCAR assault rifles had been under negotiations for three years before being signed in 2019 for delivery within a year.

In late August, the SFF were deployed against the PLA (People’s Liberation Army) in a massive ‘area denial operation’ on the southern banks of the Pangong Lake, without the imported weapons they were supposed to get. An FNH spokesperson declined comment on the failed contract, citing confidentiality.

The incident illustrates the pitfalls of India’s crippling dependence on imported small arms in the face of tensions with both its adversaries, China and Pakistan. What complicates matters is that foreign arms firms are likely to pull the plug on contracts, even in the midst of a national security crisis in the importing country, due to various factors, ranging from their own countries refusing export clearances to human rights issues in the country of sale.

The reasons for FNH’s withdrawal are not known but need to be seen in the light of a similar instance last August, when it suspended small arms deliveries to Saudi Arabia, its biggest client. Saudi Arabia, according to an Al Jazeera report, ‘accounted for 225 million euros (about Rs 1,988 crore) in a 950 million euro (about Rs 8,396 crore) industry in 2018’. The suspension, the report stated, was prompted by a complaint from a human rights group over the Saudi military intervention in Yemen.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Feb 2021 20:12

Image
Various 40 mm grenades by OFB.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Feb 2021 21:11

I have compiled a list of Indian small arms manufacturers (current and potential) and products they can supply for replacement of existing systems i.e, INSAS, Fn MAG, Hi Power pistols, Sterling carbines and other requirements:

1. OFB
Insas Mk1C 5.56x45
Excalibur Mk1 5.46x45
Ishapore Carbine 5.56x45
Ghatak 7.62x39
TAR 7.62x39
TAR carbine 7.62x39
R2 7.62x51
Unnamed ARDE OFB carbine 5.56x45
Modified FnMag under development with ARDE 7.62x51
Sniper 7.62x51.Mk1
Sniper 8.6 x 70 mm (most likely ToT from IWI)
Ak203 (through IRRPL)
JVPC 5.56x30
Browning .50 cal HMG
Vidhwansak 14.5./ 12.7 / 20 mm

2. PLR Systems
Galil ACE 52N 7.62x51
Galil ACE 32 7.62x39
Galil ACE 21/22N 5.56x45
ARAD 5.56x45
Carmel 5.56x45
Galatz DMR 7.62x51
Negev LMG 7.62x51
Negev LMG 5.56x45
Tavor 21 5.56x45
Tavor 7 7.62x51
X95 5.56x45 / 9x19
Jericho Pistols 9x19
Masada Pistols 9x19
Uzi smg 9x19
Micro Uzi 9x19

3. Kalyani small arms
ARMF1 (Arsenal) 7.62x39
F90 (Thales) 5.56x45
MG (Arsenal) belt fed lmg 7.62x51
ORSIS F17 sniper 7.62x51 / 8.6x70

4. MKU
Caracal 817 7.62x51
Caracal 816 5.56x45
Thales F90 5.56x45

5. BEL (lol :rotfl: )
ARX 160 5.56x45 / 7.62x39

6. SSS Defence
P72 7.62x51
P72 7.62x39
P72 5.56x45
Viper sniper 7.62x51
Saber sniper 8.6x70

Interest shown by IA in above? Zero.

Other Jingos can chime in with any company / product I may have missed.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Feb 2021 04:44

jamwal wrote:Good article
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/spec ... 2021-02-13

The firearms trap
India's armed forces suffer due to crippling dependence on whimsical global weapons manufacturers. Behind the crisis is the country's flawed firearms production-acquisition policy and low R&D.

IN June 2020, as India’s special forces were planning a countermove against China’s heavy military mobilisation in Ladakh, one of their units was facing a critical weapons shortage. Belgian small arms manufacturer FN Herstal (FNH) walked out of a contract to supply some 1,500 small arms to the Special Frontier Force (SFF), a covert paramilitary unit under the cabinet secretariat. The estimated Rs 70 crore contract for P90 carbines and SCAR assault rifles had been under negotiations for three years before being signed in 2019 for delivery within a year.

In late August, the SFF were deployed against the PLA (People’s Liberation Army) in a massive ‘area denial operation’ on the southern banks of the Pangong Lake, without the imported weapons they were supposed to get. An FNH spokesperson declined comment on the failed contract, citing confidentiality.

The incident illustrates the pitfalls of India’s crippling dependence on imported small arms in the face of tensions with both its adversaries, China and Pakistan. What complicates matters is that foreign arms firms are likely to pull the plug on contracts, even in the midst of a national security crisis in the importing country, due to various factors, ranging from their own countries refusing export clearances to human rights issues in the country of sale.

The reasons for FNH’s withdrawal are not known but need to be seen in the light of a similar instance last August, when it suspended small arms deliveries to Saudi Arabia, its biggest client. Saudi Arabia, according to an Al Jazeera report, ‘accounted for 225 million euros (about Rs 1,988 crore) in a 950 million euro (about Rs 8,396 crore) industry in 2018’. The suspension, the report stated, was prompted by a complaint from a human rights group over the Saudi military intervention in Yemen.


Real problem is the stupid 3 years to negotiate such a small requirement. Sandeep glosses over that. The rascals hoped NaMo won't come to power in 2019 and stalled the purchase for.
And mendacity if the supply selection officials who repeatedly put the country to such risks.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 14 Feb 2021 10:52

Time to prioritize SiG and IWI over Fn and HK. IWI is in position to make their entire small arms portfolio locally. Government has been trying to get L&T Godrej etc. in small arms business. A swift whip on euro rifle businesses' musharraf should be order of the day. Get SiG USA and SAN Swiss Arms to partner wil local companies although the latter would be problematic as they have a lot of production in Germany.

Pakis comparatively are in a better position as they still retain G3 tooling and production line. Although FAL got adopted more, G3 was the more accurate rifle and more controllable in full auto. G3 was also far more modular and they just need to slap on some rails on it to make it modern. Lots of countries like Sweden and Norway have kept their G3 with modern upgrades for reserve troops.


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