Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

[ramana]

The muzzle loader Brown Bess won the empire for the British. The Lee Enfied has it's acolytes.


Only the Americans have confusion on rifle calibres and their accolytes.

Indian Army is also confused.

Common to Brown Bess, Enfield and 7.62x51 is the enemy is killed dead.
It's the US that wants to injure them so hospitals get swamped.

That doesn't work when facing fanatics.

[Manish_P]

...

That doesn't work when facing fanatics.

Nor does it work with improvements in BPJs and protection systems.

[ks_sachin]

The same leadership that cannot select a caliber is now implementing Agniveer.
From what I am hearing we may not need the rifles afterall!!

[Pratyush]

The issue is not calibre of rifle calibre. The major issue is lack of standardized of rifle control system and the consequent training issues.

What the army should have done is to develop the INSAS into the calibre it requires for different tasks.

Such as 5.56"45, 7.62*39 or 7.62*51 mm.

Instead we have 3 different firearms all with different control systems.

This system is going to be a training disaster. If a jawan is to be transferred from one fire arm to another today and has to be put in combat. It's possible that the jawan will be confused between the control system of the different weapons.

[Manish_P]

...

What the army should have done is to develop the INSAS into the calibre it requires for different tasks.

Such as 5.56"45, 7.62*39 or 7.62*51 mm.

...

Pratyush ji, if such common sense was prevalent then what would all the various committees do for samosa-chai sessions?

[Yagnasri]

Very true. The problem lies with MoD in a big way. Kick some ass in MoD and reform it rest of the things largely take care of themselves.

[Thakur_B]

Sad part is we have ample manufacturing capacity in OFB factories, MKU, SMMP, Tata, BEL, Astr, SSS, Adani-PLR, BEL, Reliance, CMT, Kalyani for any kind of Infantry equipment and yet our armed forces are the worst equipped in any of the G20 nations. Talk about surplus capacity, we are exporting ammunition and equipment. Yet no orders and the never ending circus of RFI, AoN, RPF, Moon and Mars Trials, CCS approvals.

[Thakur_B]

Second LMG order after Negev.
5.56x45 carbine procurement.
7.62x51 rifle procurement (still lacs to go as second batch of SiG 716 has not been ordered)
0.338 Lapua Magnum Sniper rifles (only about a quarter or third of requirement was ordered)
0.50 cal HMG
7.62x51 sniper rifles
Optics for rifles needed in Lacs.
Thermal Imaging sights, needed in several thousands.
Next procurement of bullet proof jackets as the SMPP deliveries would have completed by now or close to completion.
Next procurement of helmets.
NVGs, lots of NVGs.
Anti Material rifles (only about a quarter to third of required quantity ordered)
Mine resistant boots.
Backpacks (whatever happened to Wildcraft order)
SDRs, neck mics and Comtacs.
9mm pistols.
Top brass and MoD seem to be in deep slumber.

Pardon my ignorance

0.338 Lapua Magnum Sniper rifles (only about a quarter or third of requirement was ordered)
AND
7.62x51 sniper rifles
Why 2 different sniper rifles ? What's the difference ?


7.62x51 rifle procurement (still lacs to go as second batch of SiG 716 has not been ordered)
AND
AK 203
Why 2 different rifles ? What's the difference ?

The term sniper is a blanket term for any kind of sharpshooter for us. There's specialised requirements for long distance shooting (500-1500 m) for which 0.338 bolt action is required. Then there's DMRs and precision rifle requirements for scouts and infantry batallions (400-800 meters) which can be met with 7.62x51 semi auto / bolt action rifles. And then there are anti material rifles which are good enough for anti personnel role as well suitable for up to 1000 meters.

As far as Ak203 is concerned it was meant for rear echelon troops. For infantry there was always a requirement of 3-4 lac 7.62x51 rifles and around 4 lac 5.56x45 carbines.

[ks_sachin]

The issue is not calibre of rifle calibre. The major issue is lack of standardized of rifle control system and the consequent training issues.

What the army should have done is to develop the INSAS into the calibre it requires for different tasks.

Such as 5.56"45, 7.62*39 or 7.62*51 mm.

Instead we have 3 different firearms all with different control systems.

This system is going to be a training disaster. If a jawan is to be transferred from one fire arm to another today and has to be put in combat. It's possible that the jawan will be confused between the control system of the different weapons.

Sorry,

Training a jawan is not really an issue if SOPs are well laid out and we are not asking them to change by the hour or by the day which cannot happen. That is not how the Infantry works.
SF are anyway used to operating different types even withiin a squad/batallion


The INSAS basic design leaves things to be desired. Plus all the the design improvements cannot compensate for shoddy production quality. Is it not telling that all the small arms LMG MMG and SLR that we got including production tooling gave is great service. The first locally designed small arm suffered from bad GSQRs, design issues and prod issues.

Some of our small arms experts have already alluded to the design haps in the new 5.45 carbine.

[ks_sachin]

Pardon my ignorance

0.338 Lapua Magnum Sniper rifles (only about a quarter or third of requirement was ordered)
AND
7.62x51 sniper rifles
Why 2 different sniper rifles ? What's the difference ?


7.62x51 rifle procurement (still lacs to go as second batch of SiG 716 has not been ordered)
AND
AK 203
Why 2 different rifles ? What's the difference ?

The term sniper is a blanket term for any kind of sharpshooter for us. There's specialised requirements for long distance shooting (500-1500 m) for which 0.338 bolt action is required. Then there's DMRs and precision rifle requirements for scouts and infantry batallions (400-800 meters) which can be met with 7.62x51 semi auto / bolt action rifles. And then there are anti material rifles which are good enough for anti personnel role as well suitable for up to 1000 meters.

As far as Ak203 is concerned it was meant for rear echelon troops. For infantry there was always a requirement of 3-4 lac 7.62x51 rifles and around 4 lac 5.56x45 carbines.

There is no money for next tranche of 7.62x51.

[RoyG]

Pardon my ignorance

0.338 Lapua Magnum Sniper rifles (only about a quarter or third of requirement was ordered)
AND
7.62x51 sniper rifles
Why 2 different sniper rifles ? What's the difference ?


7.62x51 rifle procurement (still lacs to go as second batch of SiG 716 has not been ordered)
AND
AK 203
Why 2 different rifles ? What's the difference ?

The term sniper is a blanket term for any kind of sharpshooter for us. There's specialised requirements for long distance shooting (500-1500 m) for which 0.338 bolt action is required. Then there's DMRs and precision rifle requirements for scouts and infantry batallions (400-800 meters) which can be met with 7.62x51 semi auto / bolt action rifles. And then there are anti material rifles which are good enough for anti personnel role as well suitable for up to 1000 meters.

As far as Ak203 is concerned it was meant for rear echelon troops. For infantry there was always a requirement of 3-4 lac 7.62x51 rifles and around 4 lac 5.56x45 carbines.

Not in slumber. This is premeditated murder of domestic small arms industry. This is the nature of collusion and state capture. If nothing is done about it the tentacles spread everywhere.

[Kersi]

Except for sniper rifles, me thinks we should standardise on 7.62 mm calibre.
Let us equip our local law n order team with 5.56 mm INSAS
Let us develop a "new INSAS" of 7.62 mm which should the supplement / replace the present license built 7.62 like AK 203 etc

[Thakur_B]

Except for sniper rifles, me thinks we should standardise on 7.62 mm calibre.

Which 7.62?
7.62x39 - Various AKM and VZ58
7.62x51 - MAG 58, Negev NG7, SiG716 and bolt actions
7.62x54 - Dragunovs, PKM and PKT

As far as common platform is considered, ARDE has more or less developed a common platform for 5.56x45, 6.8x43 and 7.62x51 which is similar to SiG550 platform minus the adjustable gas block and bolt catch and release. They feature AK style rock and lock magazines so 7.62x39 version can be developed fairly quickly. I don't have high hopes for any of these to get selected.

They could have gone for AR-10 and stanag pattern magwells to retain some commonality but I guess that's expecting too much.

[Pratyush]

Was curious about the ARDE 6.8*43 design.

I found this tweet.

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/1274326239839305730

The fire arm is quite modern.

Other firearms are also TFTA.

[Thakur_B]

That is MCIWS chambered in 6.8x43.

This is the newer design, second from top on the left.

[nachiket]

Now with the AK 203 production coming on line, time for the brass and government to dust off thick layers of dirt off many other replacement programs.

Second LMG order after Negev.
5.56x45 carbine procurement.

Thakur saab why is a 5.56mm carbine needed now if all infantry rifles are to be replaced with either the AK-203 or the SIG-716? Why complicate logistics even further than we are already doing? The AK-203 comes with a folding stock by default I believe. That should suffice.

[sanjayc]

Small arms is one thing in which Indian govt. allows itself only two options: (i) OFB (ii) Foreign companies. The very capable Indian private firms are not allowed to enter the picture (remnants of deranged Nehruvian socialism). Does the Indian Govt. exist only to fund R&D programs of non-Indian companies? What is wrong with Bharat Forge?

[Pratyush]

viewtopic.php?t=7736&start=1480#p2543944

ARDE has floated a tender for development and manufacturing of 5.56x45 mm CQB carbine.

The body will be machined steel and furniture will be polymer.

I have been looking for the tender document referenced by Thakur above. But have not been able to locate the same.

Or any further process on same.

[RoyG]

Small arms is one thing in which Indian govt. allows itself only two options: (i) OFB (ii) Foreign companies. The very capable Indian private firms are not allowed to enter the picture (remnants of deranged Nehruvian socialism). Does the Indian Govt. exist only to fund R&D programs of non-Indian companies? What is wrong with Bharat Forge?

The problem is collusion for profit in procurement. You are asking questions for which you already know the answer.

[Thakur_B]

Now with the AK 203 production coming on line, time for the brass and government to dust off thick layers of dirt off many other replacement programs.

Second LMG order after Negev.
5.56x45 carbine procurement.

Thakur saab why is a 5.56mm carbine needed now if all infantry rifles are to be replaced with either the AK-203 or the SIG-716? Why complicate logistics even further than we are already doing? The AK-203 comes with a folding stock by default I believe. That should suffice.

7.62x39 has very little advantage over 5.56x45.

5.56x45 is
- more controllable
- lighter weapons and load
- more effective against bpj and helmets. In fact even more so than 7.62x51
- better suited for cqb
- shoots flatter and is more accurate

7.62x39
- is better against unarmoured combatants in lethality.
- better at not getting lost shooting through the foliage.
- goes through light cover better

7.62x39 would have been the perfect cartridge if it's ballistics were any better.

Ideally IA should have opted for 6.5 grendel or 6.8x43 which are closer to 7 62x39 in size and are pretty much advantageous to 5.56x45, 7.62x39 and 7.62x51. instead of opting for newer calibers, we opted for three conventional calibers

[Thakur_B]

Civilian variant of Astr Atal pistol in .32 cal. You can also see a peek at their carbine prototype on the table.

[Thakur_B]

Guess the rifle.

[Pratyush]

INSAS with magpul type folding stock and Picatanny rails

[MeshaVishwas]

FAB Defense/Star Aerospace Industries INSAS upgrade kit with Polymer Fore Rail handguard, TFL-QR vertical foregrip, PDC dust cover, AG-47 pistol grip and M4-AK P folding adjustable buttstock.

-@SupratikSaumya on Twitter

[Zynda]

Guess the rifle.

Is this INSAS Mk.1C?

[Thakur_B]

It's 1B1 with FAB kit.

[nachiket]

Thakur saab why is a 5.56mm carbine needed now if all infantry rifles are to be replaced with either the AK-203 or the SIG-716? Why complicate logistics even further than we are already doing? The AK-203 comes with a folding stock by default I believe. That should suffice.

7.62x39 has very little advantage over 5.56x45.

5.56x45 is
- more controllable
- lighter weapons and load
- more effective against bpj and helmets. In fact even more so than 7.62x51
- better suited for cqb
- shoots flatter and is more accurate

7.62x39
- is better against unarmoured combatants in lethality.
- better at not getting lost shooting through the foliage.
- goes through light cover better

7.62x39 would have been the perfect cartridge if it's ballistics were any better.

Thakur saab I missed this reply earlier. Are the advantages of 5.56 over 7.62x39 still valid if we are comparing the AK-203 with a 16" barrel to a 5.56mm carbine with smaller barrel length (and muzzle energy)? And are they enough to warrant an entirely new procurement? I'm not even sure which troops exactly would be using these carbines and in what scenarios.

[Thakur_B]

Nachiket ji, 5.56x45 with a 10.3 inch barrel loses only 25% velocity compared to a full 20 inch barrel. Just having a folding ir collapsible stock won't make AK203 into a cqb weapon. The IA CQB carbine requirement is modelled after Mk 18 program rather than the M4.

[sohamn]

If you have fired the 7.62x39 vs 5.56x45, you will realize the poor ballistics of the 7.62x39 round on ranges greater than 100m. At best the round is good for policing and close combat, but its a bad choice for long ranges. This is because the round is heavy and has lower muzzle velocity than the 5.56 round. I find Indian army's decision so convoluted on this front. If I would be the person choosing the next gen battle cartridge I would choose an intermediate round with higher velocity something like the 6.8mm round. so much better ballistics and at the same time manageable recoil.

[sohamn]

I wanted to give my perspective (based on my experience) on long range sniping where some members have indicated that a bolt action is better. First of all, let me tell you that this is not true. Bolt action rifles are not better in sniping compared to a semi-automatic. In fact a semi auto will have lower recoil and will take less time to reacquire the target after the first round.

Bolt action is chosen due to a) simplicity of the gun b) easy maintenance c) cheaper d) Lighter and very importantly that one can afford a longer reload time compared to a assault rifle.

[ramana]

How come China or Paksitnat doesnt have these bullet duvida?
Why only India has to go thru these pains?

[Pratyush]

Two distinct possibilities come to mind.

1) the logistics of a major conflict is not an important factor in deciding on the weapon system.

2) the Indian army doesn't have the capacity of analysis of bullet performance in the tactical engagements. Therefore, it's incapable of coming up with specific requirements for ammunition in order to deal with specific situation faced by it.

Because it's incapable of coming up with specific requirements. It's is forced to rely on what is available on the international market.

Nothing else makes any sense.

If the army was capable of analysing ballestic performance of the round. Then they would have come up with modern bullet with characteristics for our specific requirements.

The US military small arms procurement over the last 20 years has been quite interesting to learn from. It was also all over the place. But then the settled in on 6.5 creedmore and the 6.8 SPC.

The Russians, when they were facing challenges of putting down a bad guy for good in the aftermath of mass Chechen terrorism. They designed a bespoke heavy round. Along with a bullpup firearm for that round.

The US SOCOM did pretty much the same thing.

But within the Indian army you don't see similar efforts.

[Thakur_B]

I wanted to give my perspective (based on my experience) on long range sniping where some members have indicated that a bolt action is better. First of all, let me tell you that this is not true. Bolt action rifles are not better in sniping compared to a semi-automatic. In fact a semi auto will have lower recoil and will take less time to reacquire the target after the first round.

Bolt action is chosen due to a) simplicity of the gun b) easy maintenance c) cheaper d) Lighter and very importantly that one can afford a longer reload time compared to a assault rifle.

Hardly any semi auto precision rifle has MoA figure less than 1, much less 0.5. Semi auto precision rifles are good for DMR role i.e., up to 800 meters. Some examples of this class are SR-25, Sig716G2, LMT L129A1, HK PSG1, SCAR17, Dragunovs and others. For long range shooting, i.e. 1000 meters or more, bolt action resign supreme.

[Pratyush]

Thakur,

Have you had any opportunity to shoot the 6.5 creed more SASS.

Or have first hand account of that weapon.

Internet has a lot of positive things to say about the weapon. But you know exactly what internet gyan is worth.

[nachiket]

Nachiket ji, 5.56x45 with a 10.3 inch barrel loses only 25% velocity compared to a full 20 inch barrel. Just having a folding ir collapsible stock won't make AK203 into a cqb weapon. The IA CQB carbine requirement is modelled after Mk 18 program rather than the M4.

Thanks for the info.

[bala]

7.62x51 mm Ishapore Assault Rifle - a desi version of Sig Sauer 716

[nachiket]

7.62x51 mm Ishapore Assault Rifle - a desi version of Sig Sauer 716

How is this a desi version of Sig 716? This seems to use the INSAS long-stroke piston action (AK derived) adapted for 7.62x51mm. Absolutely no similarity to the Sig 716 except for the ammunition.

[nachiket]

The US military small arms procurement over the last 20 years has been quite interesting to learn from. It was also all over the place. But then the settled in on 6.5 creedmore and the 6.8 SPC.

But they didn't settle on either of those. They abandoned the 6.8 SPC (creedmoor is only used for some sniper rifles I think) and the new XM7 uses the all new 6.8x51mm (.277 Fury) round from SIG. Its very close to 7.62x51 in some parameters. Even now it is not guaranteed that the XM7 will be the definitive M4/M16 replacement. You already have US army vets on YT complaining about how heavy the rifle is and how it is not suited for all battlefield conditions.

[sohamn]

I wanted to give my perspective (based on my experience) on long range sniping where some members have indicated that a bolt action is better. First of all, let me tell you that this is not true. Bolt action rifles are not better in sniping compared to a semi-automatic. In fact a semi auto will have lower recoil and will take less time to reacquire the target after the first round.

Bolt action is chosen due to a) simplicity of the gun b) easy maintenance c) cheaper d) Lighter and very importantly that one can afford a longer reload time compared to a assault rifle.

Hardly any semi auto precision rifle has MoA figure less than 1, much less 0.5. Semi auto precision rifles are good for DMR role i.e., up to 800 meters. Some examples of this class are SR-25, Sig716G2, LMT L129A1, HK PSG1, SCAR17, Dragunovs and others. For long range shooting, i.e. 1000 meters or more, bolt action resign supreme.

The precision on a rifle is dependent on many things and one important thing being how tightly fit various parts are. Do they jiggle or more, are there gaps where gas can escape etc?. Because bolt action has few moving parts, their wear and tear remains low and hence accuracy is preserved for longer time. A semi auto will progressively go down in accuracy due to wear and tear over a period of time. And ofcourse there are semi autos like AK which was made with lower accuracy and higher tolerances in mind and they are not good snipers.

https://www.sdi.edu/bolt-action-or-semi ... mpetition/

[Pratyush]

Nachiket,

The US military has selected the 6.8. You are free to call it SPC or Fury.

The bullet will remain.

If you have paid attention to the new rifel competition.

You will see that the US army in 2016-17 had selected 6.8 bullet.

They had also specified a chamber pressure of 80,000 PSI for the fire arm.

What they left for the industry was to choose how to execute the requirements.

That is the reason why you had 3 seperate cartridge designs from the different industry teams.

That is also the reason why, regardless of what the veterans are saying on you tube. The US army will continue with the new firearm.

Because the US army had decided that this was the best way for them to keep the future rifelman effective on the battlefield.