Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thakur_B wrote:Repeat order to SiG is common sense. How can we use common sense?

I also support the cancellation of Ak203 deal. Rest of the rifles can be PLR Systems Galil ACE 52N in 7.62x51. standardise the calibre. ACE 52N also comes with magazine commonality with SiG 716 and is made in India.
Maybe someone saw through the charade of the rifles being bad.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by mody »

The AK203 can be dropped in favour of Trichy Assault Rifle, with the SSS defense upgrade for the Ak series. This basically gets the rifle everything that the Ak-203 brings to the table.
The 7.62x39 or 5.56x45 caliber assault rifles are required for to provide heavier volume of fire. As some of the videos of the Sig-716 firing have shown, using the rilfe in full auto mode, is very difficult. The recoil is too high. Even a 3 round burst mode, if available, would still have a very high recoil.

The 7.62x39 Ak rounds, lack accuracy at longer ranges, but can provide higher firepower and short range engagements are really good.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

AK series is good for close-quarter battle (CQB) or combat.

Mody most likely that will be the way out.
The SIG was known to have fouling problems with the cartridge residue.
Its a matter of more cleaning.
Looks like the original report was a hit job.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by sohamn »

mody wrote:The AK203 can be dropped in favour of Trichy Assault Rifle, with the SSS defense upgrade for the Ak series. This basically gets the rifle everything that the Ak-203 brings to the table.
The 7.62x39 or 5.56x45 caliber assault rifles are required for to provide heavier volume of fire. As some of the videos of the Sig-716 firing have shown, using the rilfe in full auto mode, is very difficult. The recoil is too high. Even a 3 round burst mode, if available, would still have a very high recoil.

The 7.62x39 Ak rounds, lack accuracy at longer ranges, but can provide higher firepower and short range engagements are really good.

You don't use a full powered rifle in full auto mode without taking support or tripod. The same is also true for AK.

I believe the required rounds suited fort this rifle has lesser muzzle velocity than a mmg round. If one uses a mmg round then cleaning becomes more important. Also, a day sight is extremely important for a full power rifle because you want to utilize it's long range capability.

I wonder who initiated the hit job? Was it the Russians or the Sheikhs?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »



The mud test on the new M5 conducted by the in range tv guy.

Has multiple failures to feed and failure to fire. I don't know if this is a standard test condition for fire arms. But it's interesting to watch anyway.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Pratyush wrote:

The mud test on the new M5 conducted by the in range tv guy.

Has multiple failures to feed and failure to fire. I don't know if this is a standard test condition for fire arms. But it's interesting to watch anyway.
AKM are just as bad. Once grit enters the system, all guns are dead.

What AKMs are good at is dealing with talcum powder like dust that soaks up all lubrication and introduces friction in movement. Large moving surfaces, tolerance and default overgassed settings make the AKM reliable.

Another area where AKM excell at is freezing. The rock and lock magazine and the overgassing help.

AKM also gobble up dirty corrosive steel cased ammunition which chokes up.

Surprisingly the dust cover on AR pattern rifles protects it well from slush.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by mody »

ramana wrote:AK series is good for close-quarter battle (CQB) or combat.

Mody most likely that will be the way out.
The SIG was known to have fouling problems with the cartridge residue.
Its a matter of more cleaning.
Looks like the original report was a hit job.
From the above article that I posted, it seems that all the units will have a mix of both Sig-716i and Ak-series rifles. The logistics for the ammo will be more difficult, but then the Sig uses the same ammo as the belt fed LMG. All battalions are going to have LMGs as well and hence the ammo logistics might not be such a big problem. One way to fulfill the multi-caliber requirement.
The Sig with the right kind of optics and sight, can also be used as a sniper rifle, upto 600m range.

For use in the mountains, in Kargil type engagements, the AK would be better suited than the Sig. The ammo is slightly lighter and so for all things being equal, a soldier would be able to carry a few more rounds. Most engagements would be at shorter ranges and the AK would do just fine.
For longer range engagements, the guys with Sig can provide the firepower.

Mostly the second order for the Sig will go through, as per the reports and I guess that will be the end of it. The rest will be AK. Hopefully we will ditch the Russian offer and manufacture the local derivative on our own. Between the public and private sector, we have all the required capabilities to come up with a AK-203 equivalent rifle, with all the required optics and sights. No need to pay royalty to the Russians.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

Trichy assault rifle with SSS Defence upgrade kit can be a good bet. SSS Defence says they have some ideas on how to improve the operating mechanism of AK series that will be make it more formidable.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

mody wrote:
ramana wrote:AK series is good for close-quarter battle (CQB) or combat.

Mody most likely that will be the way out.
The SIG was known to have fouling problems with the cartridge residue.
Its a matter of more cleaning.
Looks like the original report was a hit job.
From the above article that I posted, it seems that all the units will have a mix of both Sig-716i and Ak-series rifles. The logistics for the ammo will be more difficult, but then the Sig uses the same ammo as the belt fed LMG. All battalions are going to have LMGs as well and hence the ammo logistics might not be such a big problem. One way to fulfill the multi-caliber requirement.
The Sig with the right kind of optics and sight, can also be used as a sniper rifle, upto 600m range.

For use in the mountains, in Kargil type engagements, the AK would be better suited than the Sig. The ammo is slightly lighter and so for all things being equal, a soldier would be able to carry a few more rounds. Most engagements would be at shorter ranges and the AK would do just fine.
For longer range engagements, the guys with Sig can provide the firepower.

Mostly the second order for the Sig will go through, as per the reports and I guess that will be the end of it. The rest will be AK. Hopefully we will ditch the Russian offer and manufacture the local derivative on our own. Between the public and private sector, we have all the required capabilities to come up with a AK-203 equivalent rifle, with all the required optics and sights. No need to pay royalty to the Russians.
Guys Akshay Sir very clearly stated where the Sigs were going etc. why this repeated bout of hypothesis?
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Err what did he say?

Can anyone dig up whats the production rate for the Trichy rifle?
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

It looks like Trichy OFB delivered 11500 rifles to CAPF in 2020-2021.
So rate is 11.5K/year

Also, the Trichy Minicarbine fires the same 7.62x39 cartridge and uses parts of the Trichy rifle.

So as the Amethi factory is in jeopardy might as well give the orders to Trichy.
At least all the mini carbine replacements for the 9mm.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

ramana wrote:It looks like Trichy OFB delivered 11500 rifles to CAPF in 2020-2021.
So rate is 11.5K/year

Also, the Trichy Minicarbine fires the same 7.62x39 cartridge and uses parts of the Trichy rifle.

So as the Amethi factory is in jeopardy might as well give the orders to Trichy.
At least all the mini carbine replacements for the 9mm.
CAPFs have been more practical in their approach. They have procured thousands of Arsenal rifles in small batches, but they have also supplemented them with RFI Ghatak and RFI TAR.

7.62x39 is the perfect round for CAPFs because they are unlikely to come up against body armour in policing and CT roles.

Whereas IA will be forced to enter into long-range engagement. Everyone is either buying newer rifles with 1913 rails or sticking rails on older rifles. The cost of basic optics is dropping rapidly. Very soon intermediate range engagements will become the norm with accurate firepower pinning down opponent troops at 300 meters (true for 5.56x45, 5.45x39, 7.62x51 and 5.8x42). This is the range where 7.62x39 becomes a liability, for it's velocity at 300 meters is less than the velocity of 5.56x45 at 500 meters. The low velocity renders is very susceptible to wind drift and body armour.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Thakur_B wrote:
ramana wrote:It looks like Trichy OFB delivered 11500 rifles to CAPF in 2020-2021.
So rate is 11.5K/year

Also, the Trichy Minicarbine fires the same 7.62x39 cartridge and uses parts of the Trichy rifle.

So as the Amethi factory is in jeopardy might as well give the orders to Trichy.
At least all the mini carbine replacements for the 9mm.
CAPFs have been more practical in their approach. They have procured thousands of Arsenal rifles in small batches, but they have also supplemented them with RFI Ghatak and RFT TAR.

7.62x39 is the perfect round for CAPFs because they are unlikely to come up against body armour in policing and CT roles.

Whereas IA will be forced to enter into long range engagement. Everyone is either buying newer rifles with 1913 rails or sticking rails on older rifles. The cost of basic optics is dropping rapidly. Very soon intermediate range engagements will become the norm with accurate fire power pinning down opponent troops at 300 meters (true for 5.56x45, 5.45x39, 7.62x51 and 5.8x42). This is the range where 7.62x39 becomes a liability, for it's velocity at 300 meters is less than the velocity of 5.56x45 at 500 meters. THe low velocity renders is very susceptible to wind drift and body armour.
Thakur ji. I think the next battles the IA will fight will be all hand to hand combat. Who needs a rifle then. A stick with a bayonet will do.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Updated list of small arms under manufacturng or tie ups for potential manufacture from various news articles, defence expos, press releases etc. The list is getting bigger and bigger.
1. OFB
Insas Mk1C 5.56x45
Excalibur Mk1 5.46x45
Ishapore Carbine 5.56x45
Ghatak 7.62x39
TAR 7.62x39
TAR carbine TriCa 7.62x39
R2 7.62x51
Unnamed ARDE OFB carbine manufactured at SAF Kanpur 5.56x45
Modified FnMag under development with ARDE 7.62x51
Sniper 7.62x51.Mk1
Sniper 8.6 x 70 mm (most likely ToT from IWI)
Ak203 (through IRRPL)
JVPC 5.56x30
Browning .50 cal HMG
Vidhwansak 14.5./ 12.7 / 20 mm

2. PLR Systems
Galil ACE 52N 7.62x51
Galil ACE 32 7.62x39
Galil ACE 21/22N 5.56x45
ARAD 5.56x45
Carmel 5.56x45
Galatz DMR 7.62x51
Negev LMG 7.62x51
Negev LMG 5.56x45
Tavor 21 5.56x45
Tavor 7 7.62x51
X95 5.56x45 / 9x19
Jericho Pistols 9x19
Masada Pistols 9x19
Uzi smg 9x19
Micro Uzi 9x19


3. Kalyani /Bharat Forge small arms
ARMF1 (Arsenal) 7.62x39
F90 (Thales) 5.56x45
MG (Arsenal) belt fed lmg 7.62x51
ORSIS F17 sniper 7.62x51 / 8.6x70
JVPC 5.56x30 (displayed at various events under Kalyani banner)
ARDE CQB Carbine 5.56x45 (displayed at various events under Kalyani banner)

4. MKU
Caracal 817 7.62x51
Caracal 816 5.56x45
Thales F90 5.56x45

5. BEL (lol :rotfl: )
ARX 160 5.56x45 / 7.62x39

6. SSS Defence
P72 7.62x51
P72 7.62x39
P72 5.56x45
Viper sniper 7.62x51
Saber sniper 8.6x70
Unnamed AR-15 derivatives in 5.56x45

7. Reliance Defence
K2C carbine (S&T Motiv Korea) 5.56×45
K12 LMG (S&T Motiv Korea) 7.62x51

8. Jindal Group (in partnership with Brazilian Taurus Group)
TS9 pistol 9x19 parabellum
T4 Carbine (M4 clone) 5.56x45

9. CMT Pvt. Ltd. In partnership with Glock for pistols, CZ for rifles and smg and Steelcore for snipers)
CZ Bren 2 BR (7.62x51)
CZ Bren 2 (7.62x39, 5.56x45 in various barrel length)
CZ Scorpion Evo SMG 9x19
Glock Pistols
CMT Cyclone HSR (Steelcore Design) bolt action rifle 0.50 CAL
CMT Thunderbolt (Steelcore design) bolt action rifle in 8.6x70 and 7.62x51
CMT Hurricane SF (Steelcore design) bolt action rifle in 7.62x51

10. Astr Defence
Atal Pistol 9x19
Indra Rifle - muticaliber

11. Nomad Defence Pvt. Ltd.
North-1 bolt action rifle in 0.50 Cal and 8.6x70
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by souravB »

ramana wrote:--snip--
The SIG was known to have fouling problems with the cartridge residue.
Its a matter of more cleaning.
--snip--
Not only SIGs, any standard 7.62NATO rifle with standard barrel length will face problem till they use OFV ammo unless both propellant & filling process change.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ Piston driven guns are more resilient to fouling.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by souravB »

^^More resilient but not safe. Unless gun powder is burned, it will stay in barrel, gas port etc.
How much residue is left depends on propellant, filling process and barrel length.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Ironically, OFB uses Belgian powder in export grade ammunition, one of the reasons for favourable reviews of their export ammunition.

What is surprising that IA did not ask for piston version of SiG716 knowing fully well about the status of Indian ammunition.

PLR went to the extant of certifying Indian made rifles of IWI to be compatible with OFB ammunition.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

Manpack SDR by BEL

Quad tube NVD by BEL and DRDO in bottom right corner.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

https://mobile.twitter.com/alpha_defens ... 1231315968

NSG to acquire 162 Nos 7.62x51 rifles from Indian OEM

PLR Galil?
OFB R2?
SSS P72?
CMT Bren ?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

SF with new L3 Harris Falcon 3 radios. From Left-Right, RF-7800V/7850M-V51X vehicular radio, RF-7800H-MP manpack radio,RF-7800M/7850M-HH handheld radio and RF-7850S SPR secure personal radio.
Image

https://mobile.twitter.com/SupratikSaum ... 5311528961
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

Ak103 recieved by IAF. Pic rails on dust cover and under handguard.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/202 ... rt-weapon/

Rheinmetall introduces 40 mm magazine fed grenade launcher.

I can't imagine the tedious process of loading that magazine with a massive stiff spring. Hard to imagine it beating the simplicity of Milkor adopted by Indian and American armed forces.

The Chinese solution seems far more elegant with a drum magazine.

http://rpdefense.over-blog.com/2015/06/ ... ation.html
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

If you remember the XM25 with its programmable ammunition. I had always wondered why the same concept could not be implimented for the standard 40 mm grenades.

Granted, the launchers would have to be redesigned. But would have been much more effective. When compared with the 25 mm shots.

PRC has done what I had been wondering about.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:If you remember the XM25 with its programmable ammunition. I had always wondered why the same concept could not be implemented for the standard 40 mm grenades.

Granted, the launchers would have to be redesigned. But would have been much more effective. When compared with the 25 mm shots.

PRC has done what I had been wondering about.
Gone are the days of hefty men hurling grenades....I wonder if Neeraj Chopra can hurl it further than these modern thingammajiggies!
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Thakur_B wrote:Image

Ak103 recieved by IAF. Pic rails on dust cover and under handguard.
Thakur_B is this from our new factory?

I hope someone does a proper comparison with the Trichy Assault Rifle!
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Part of 70k direct import order for IAF.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Pratyush wrote:
PRC has done what I had been wondering about.
Chinese semi auto grenade launcher can launch high velocity grenades. It's closer to an anti material rifle in usage.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

BIS level 5 and BIS Level 6 (NIJ Level III+ and Level IV+ respectively) jackets from DRDO
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by wig »

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... rmy-407803

MoD to procure 4,800 sniper rifles for Army
extracts
MoD has asked companies to respond in four weeks. It is looking at nearly 4,800 rifles that should be 8.6 calibre and fitted with a telescopic sight. It has also sought 78 lakh rounds of ammunition. The rifle will have to made locally and have a range of 1,200 m and have a “blot action” operating mechanism with the capacity to fire 100 rounds
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

It may appear that the Indian army is asking for a .338 laupa sniper for which SSS Defence may be front runner.

But by specifying 8.6 mm they could in fact asking for a sniper in 8.6 blackout by the company Q and Hornady.

Wikipedia description of the round is provided below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.6_Blackout
8.6 Blackout, also sometimes referred to as the 8.6 BLK or the 8.6 Creedmoor,[1] is a centerfire rifle cartridge developed by the weapons manufacturer Q.[2] It utilizes a shortened casing from the 6.5mm Creedmoor necked up to an 8.6mm (0.338 in) projectile and designed for use in bolt action rifles or as a caliber conversion for AR10 and AR308 rifles. 8.6 Blackout barrels use a 1:3 or 1:4 twist rate and bullet weights between 160 - 225 grain for supersonic, and 285 - 350 grain for subsonic.[3
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Pratyush wrote:It may appear that the Indian army is asking for a .338 laupa sniper for which SSS Defence may be front runner.

But by specifying 8.6 mm they could in fact asking for a sniper in 8.6 blackout by the company Q and Hornady.

Wikipedia description of the round is provided below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.6_Blackout
8.6 Blackout, also sometimes referred to as the 8.6 BLK or the 8.6 Creedmoor,[1] is a centerfire rifle cartridge developed by the weapons manufacturer Q.[2] It utilizes a shortened casing from the 6.5mm Creedmoor necked up to an 8.6mm (0.338 in) projectile and designed for use in bolt action rifles or as a caliber conversion for AR10 and AR308 rifles. 8.6 Blackout barrels use a 1:3 or 1:4 twist rate and bullet weights between 160 - 225 grain for supersonic, and 285 - 350 grain for subsonic.[3
8.6x70 is .338 in metric.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

Asmi prototype by Kalyani.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »



Small arms by PLR and MIL.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jaysimha »

https://newsonair.com/2022/07/14/exclus ... ne-pistol/
Exclusive: The story behind developing first made-in-India ‘9mm Machine Pistol’
Written by PBNS
July 14, 2022

Image
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

^^I actually thought it was about the design and development journey!!!!
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