Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Mar 2020 00:00

CISF has received the first batch of ARM5 rifles from Bulgaria. Order for 50,000 rifles has been given.

mody · Post by **mody** » 03 Mar 2020 15:23

Vips wrote:CISF has received the first batch of ARM5 rifles from Bulgaria. Order for 50,000 rifles has been given.

Don't understand these type of purchases. CISF can very well use the Excalibur or Ghatak or any other domestically manufactured rifle.
I think the central government should explicitly ban or at least mandate a written central government approval for import of any kind of small arms by state governements and state controlled police forces. Even amongst the paramilitary forces, the central government should have a policy that restricts the forces that can import weapons from abroad. CISF does not need imported weapons. It can very well be armaed with domestically manufactured weapons.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 03 Mar 2020 17:29

For the sake of argument, assume import is ok. India is buying CAR 816 Carbine from UAE, Sig Saur 716 rifle from USA and the AK203 rifle from Russia. Why on earth did CISF not buy more of these? ARM5 from Bulgaria?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 03 Mar 2020 17:33

IIRC, it was earlier decided that Excalibur and later TAR and JVPC would be used by the Paramailitary forces. But situation is otherwise with each department within the MHA and in different state governments operating in silos and importing rifles/guns from all over the world. Hell even the Anti Terrorist Force/Rapid Action Force in different cities have joined the circus. The Babus are hardly going to let go an opportunity to indulge in a foreign jaunt and earn from kickbacks.

I hope the recent decision to replace all the .303 rifles with difference State police forces with Army retired/retiring INSAS will be followed upon.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 04 Mar 2020 13:42

Past event
International Conference on Small Arms: From Current Paradigm on Small Arms to Next Level
Feb 20, 2020, FICCI, New Delhi

http://www.ficci.in/past-event-page.asp?evid=24612

The above pdf can be downloaded after entering the details.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 04 Mar 2020 15:35

Gerard wrote:For the sake of argument, assume import is ok. India is buying CAR 816 Carbine from UAE, Sig Saur 716 rifle from USA and the AK203 rifle from Russia. Why on earth did CISF not buy more of these? ARM5 from Bulgaria?

What's the cost of each? Not sure but I think the Sig 716 and the CAR 816 are the costliest, followed by the AK203. The Arsenal ARM5 reportedly costs about half of the others.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Mar 2020 02:30

Thakur_B, The 0.22 cartridge made by OFB is it whats called 0.22 Long Rifle?

https://ofb.gov.in/product/products/pro ... -fire-ball

mody · Post by **mody** » 05 Mar 2020 15:52

Gerard wrote:For the sake of argument, assume import is ok. India is buying CAR 816 Carbine from UAE, Sig Saur 716 rifle from USA and the AK203 rifle from Russia. Why on earth did CISF not buy more of these? ARM5 from Bulgaria?

Gerard, if you ask me, import of any kind small arms is not OK. Throw open the small arms sector competely to all companies foreign or Indian, but buy made in India products only. We are one of the largest markets in the world and there is no reason we cannot design and manufacture ourselves.
The recent strides by the likes of SSS defence is a case in point. A relatively small company making big strides in a very short period of time. Also, free up the OFBs to design and manufacture themselves and sell.

But, since we do not have ARs with the right kind of quality, for the frontline troops, we can import, like the import of Sig Saur 716 rifles.
I am dead against the caribe import from UAE. The price is higher then the Sig Saur 716 and indigenous solutions for the carbine are showing promise. The big problem has been the lack of clarity on the caliber of the bullets to be used. We keep oscilatting between 7.62x51 to 7.62x39, to 5.56x45 etc. Even the 6.8 mm bullets.
The specific remark was with regards to the import by CISF and the recent news of Nagaland state anti-terror units importing the Tevor rifles and manu other police and state forces, importing a variety of different small arms. We should try to standardize and buy made in India small arms only for all state and central police forces and paramilitary forces.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Mar 2020 04:42

I agree. Standardization is needed and the Indian market is huge enough that foreign manufacturers (if their products are necessary) will set up local production.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Mar 2020 07:00

ramana wrote:Thakur_B, The 0.22 cartridge made by OFB is it whats called 0.22 Long Rifle?

https://ofb.gov.in/product/products/pro ... -fire-ball

Looks like it. 22 LR is non PB cartridge.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 06 Mar 2020 07:10

Manish_P wrote:What's the cost of each? Not sure but I think the Sig 716 and the CAR 816 are the costliest, followed by the AK203. The Arsenal ARM5 reportedly costs about half of the others.

A good point. How does it compare capability/quality wise?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 06 Mar 2020 07:19

Manish_P wrote:
Gerard wrote:For the sake of argument, assume import is ok. India is buying CAR 816 Carbine from UAE, Sig Saur 716 rifle from USA and the AK203 rifle from Russia. Why on earth did CISF not buy more of these? ARM5 from Bulgaria?
What's the cost of each? Not sure but I think the Sig 716 and the CAR 816 are the costliest, followed by the AK203. The Arsenal ARM5 reportedly costs about half of the others.

SiG 716 bid was around $950.
Caracal bid was around $1100.
AK dead is around $1200 (including local manufacturing)

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 06 Mar 2020 10:34

I was looking at the local prices on forums and found them in roughly the same ballpark. Except for the ARM5. Didn't expect the AK203 bid to be much higher than the other though. Is that for the fabled TOT

?

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 08 Mar 2020 12:26

Livefist has photos of the sig with our troops. Looks like we got the tread variant? this is the lower cost direct impingement variant. I hope it performs well.edit: ballistic magazine had a recent article on a so called sig 716i based on what they sold to us. The article was appears to be removed but is available on cache.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2020 02:03

Bharadwaj wrote:Livefist has photos of the sig with our troops. Looks like we got the tread variant? this is the lower cost direct impingement variant. I hope it performs well.edit: ballistic magazine had a recent article on a so called sig 716i based on what they sold to us. The article was appears to be removed but is available on cache.

Link please

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 09 Mar 2020 07:22

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=in
Here you go

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2020 11:25

https://www.monch.com/mpg/ebooks/milita ... kd4v1n/48/

New ammo developments

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2020 11:27

Bharadwaj Thanks!

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 14 Mar 2020 01:32

CRPF has received the first batch (500 units) of TAR (Trichy Assault Rifles).Till date nearly 10,000 riles have been supplied to various para military and state government forces. Carbine and 40 MM UBGL versions of TAR are under development.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 15 Mar 2020 16:38

What is the Army thinking?!

The Indian military will get an obsolescent VSHORADS that will be almost two decades old by the time it enters service, and almost fifty years old at the end of its service life cycle.

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/03 ... y.html?m=1

I am not too keen on the Ka226T as well but this system is absurdly old.Might as well keep the Igla in operation.
Edit:This is my problem with L1 nonsense.I believe all the 3 systems passed the trials so it came down to the number of beans.And this was L1!
Shook Law is uber gora is known here but I want too see a proper counter to his argument for me to believe the ministry is right in choosing this.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Mar 2020 20:22

MeshaVishwas wrote:What is the Army thinking?!

The army or... our babudom

from the article

Russian industry sources say that, when the Indian tender was floated in 2010, they had only the Igla-S to offer since the Verba was not ready. In 2014, when the Russian military introduced the fourth-generation Verba, Rosoboronexport offered to replace the Igla-S with the new missile. But the MoD said the DPP did not permit this change.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Mar 2020 23:09

The question is what is the "percentage threat". If IA defined its requirements according to the percentage threat and Igla cleared it then, how does its vintage matter.

For me, I don't understand why is there no desi VSHORADS program? This is a low-hanging fruit. It is low handing to the point that DRDO doesn't need to get involved. DPSUs and private sector manufacturing units can build this today!

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 16 Mar 2020 12:34

About a soldier and his love for his gun.. well it's an interview with a serving soldier. Good read.

Tavor for FIBUA—Gun for Indian urban set-up

Some of the several points mentioned by the soldier

"Tavor lets you hold it tightly. The weapon is such that it is easy to hold, and when it’s held, it feels like a part of your body—the weapon merges with you."

"With a reduced weight and shorter length, Tavor is easier to maneuver. Guns are usually pointed in a downward direction when not in use and during an ambush i.e when you are not expecting an attack, your reduced reaction time to bring the gun to your shoulder and to fire it, works as a life saver."

"Most of the time in places like Kashmir, it’s a FIBUA like situation. It’s an acronym for Fighting in built-up area. Commonly known as urban warfare.A lot of times during CASO (cordon and search operation), we have to fight terrorists in places surrounded by buildings for a long duration, sometimes for as long as 18hours. Under such circumstances, we have to keep our hands stretched for hours at length, and while the operation is on, any fatigue can cause death. This is when one realizes the importance of having a powerful yet lighter gun like Tavor. In places like the valley, we are on constant move, we prefer having a gun which is easy to store in the vehicles we travel while commuting from one place to another."

"in urban warfare not just the chances of a CQB are high but also of a casualty. The casualty ratio in FIBUA is 3.57:1, which means for every 3-4 terrorists killed, we have a casualty on our side too. this why it is of paramount importance to conceal the weapon. A lot of times, we are not in our uniform while patrolling in the valley and we do not like to alarm the civilians living in an area. If our gun is spotted then it also alerts the terrorists."

"We do use 7.62mm. Just that we may not use it as often in FIBUA. There are many reasons, and one of the most practical reason is– that for the same amount of weight, we can carry 3 times more 5.56mm bullets than the 7.62mm bullets."

kit · Post by **kit** » 16 Mar 2020 12:41

Indranil wrote:The question is what is the "percentage threat". If IA defined its requirements according to the percentage threat and Igla cleared it then, how does its vintage matter.

For me, I don't understand why is there no desi VSHORADS program? This is a low-hanging fruit. It is low handing to the point that DRDO doesn't need to get involved. DPSUs and private sector manufacturing units can build this today!

It does look stupid and idiotic to buy an older generation system when a newer one is offered , but yes the petinent question is why buy foreign, this doesnt look uber sophisticated !! .. someone should raise the issue with the Def Minister herself !! .. looks like someone in bureaucracy is out to get something with their bureaucratic nonsense !!

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 16 Mar 2020 18:08

The current defence minister is a gentleman

but I do agree with your sentiments.

More and more our babudom seems to be of the type depicted in the 'Yes, Minister' TV series. Entirely self serving and self sustaining.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 19 Mar 2020 20:44

India signs Rs 880 crore deal with Israel's IWI for 16,479 NEGEV 7.62x51mm light machine guns.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/124 ... 30657?s=19

FIREARMS PUSH: India Orders >16,000 Israeli Negev Light Machineguns

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/03 ... eguns.html

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 19 Mar 2020 22:48

Will these negevs be imports? Or will they be manufactured here at adani(formerly punj llyod) facility in collaboration with IWI? That is the question.

mody · Post by **mody** » 20 Mar 2020 15:40

The report mentions that many more LMGs are required and will be part of 'Make In India'. This would imply that the initial lot will be import and there maybe a separate contract for license production in India.
I hope we can come with an indigenous LMG in the meantime and not opt for ToT screwdrivergiri.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2020 16:15

Indranil wrote:The question is what is the "percentage threat". If IA defined its requirements according to the percentage threat and Igla cleared it then, how does its vintage matter.

For me, I don't understand why is there no desi VSHORADS program? This is a low-hanging fruit. It is low handing to the point that DRDO doesn't need to get involved. DPSUs and private sector manufacturing units can build this today!

I dont understand this percentage threat stuff. Fact is the Igla-S itself didn't meet trials requirements per several media reports (which MOD never countered) and the Russians offered Verba, which in a display of mind-boggling obtuseness we refused because it would mean cancelling the process. The DPP does not allow significant change midway through the process even if it meets India's defence requirements. Its a stupid process and needs fixing. But as usual MOD is focused on CYA vs corruption charges as versus getting India the best outcome. The combination of a badly framed DPP, avoiding single vendor situations and the L1 gimmickry has made a mockery out of our procurement.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr
https://theprint.in/defence/swedens-saa ... ct/196508/

Threats are ever increasing, and Igla-S is so old even the Russians are moving on. What is our fascination with buying Tier-2 stuff in mass quantities and patting ourselves on the back. The Igla-S seeker, technology is clearly behind state of the art per Russians themselves otherwise why would they move to the Verba from 2015 onwards.

srin · Post by **srin** » 20 Mar 2020 16:34

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Mar 2020 18:32

What we missed
https://www.kbm.ru/en/production/pzrk/803.html

- the new Verba MANPADS outperforms earlier-generation systems by 1.5 to 2 times, particularly at distances in excess of 3km;

- the counter-countermeasure capability against powerful pyrotechnical decoys is 10 times as high;

- the engagement envelope for targets with a low thermal emission is expanded by 2.5 times due to increased sensitivity of the missile's seeker;

- the new Verba MANPADS can be used more effectively in the air defence system to counter UAVs and other IR-low-signature targets;

- the ground-based IFF interrogator is re-established as the system component;

- the operational temperature range is extended to minus 50° C;

- the combat equipment weight is reduced as compared to the predecessor, Igla-S MANPADS;

- the Verba MANPADS missile can be used not only for firing from shoulder but also as a standardized interservice weapon system to engage air targets from various ground-, air-, and sea-based platforms.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 20 Mar 2020 18:39

darshhan wrote:Will these negevs be imports? Or will they be manufactured here at adani(formerly punj llyod) facility in collaboration with IWI? That is the question.

mody wrote:The report mentions that many more LMGs are required and will be part of 'Make In India'. This would imply that the initial lot will be import and there maybe a separate contract for license production in India.
I hope we can come with an indigenous LMG in the meantime and not opt for ToT screwdrivergiri.

These will likely be manufactured at IWI Adani JV smalls arms unit in Gwalior.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 24 Mar 2020 05:14

After LMGs, Indian Army will soon get close-quarter-battle carbines.

With the deal for the Light Machine Guns (LMG) in place, the Indian Army is now waiting for the close-quarter-battle carbines (CQB). “A decision is expected by later this month. It is now close to fifteen months since the UAE based Caracal Company was declared L1 after extensive trials for a $ 553.33 million. The Oversight Committee has already submitted its report the Ministry of Defence (MoD),” confirmed a senior officer on condition of anonymity.

Despite meeting all the specifications as well as the requirements mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP), and giving detailed responses to the MoD, final decision has not been taken yet.

After being declared as L1, UAE based Caracal has already been through the Commercial Negotiating Committee (CNC), and has completed the Acceptance Test Procedure report, along with other documents has been submitted to the MoD.

The Company is NATO compliant and has been supplying these CQBs to other armed forces across the globe. The trials for the India market were extensive in nature and had been carried out in India as well the home country of the companies who had bid for this order. The tests were carried out with Indian ammunition in different terrain.

Since the deal will be under the FTP, within one year of the inking of the contract he deliveries will start. There is an urgent requirement for seven lakh CQBs, which is why these will come through the FTP.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Mar 2020 13:43

ashishvikas wrote:India signs Rs 880 crore deal with Israel's IWI for 16,479 NEGEV 7.62x51mm light machine guns.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/124 ... 30657?s=19

FIREARMS PUSH: India Orders >16,000 Israeli Negev Light Machineguns

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/03 ... eguns.html

https://iwi.us/product/negev-ng7-lmg/

Full details of Negev NG7

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Mar 2020 13:45

It looks like modernised Bren with belt feed and auto selector.

Wish ARDE had tried to upgrade the BREN over the many decades and IA had some officers with vision.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 25 Mar 2020 01:17

No TOT or local manufacture for Sig Rifle or Negev. Also it's likely that 50% option for additional quantities will be exercised, in next couple of months.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Mar 2020 02:23

The IWI page says Negev N7 TOT is with Punj Lloyd.

I was told that the muzzle break suppresses the recoil to almost negligible levels.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 25 Mar 2020 03:58

ramana wrote:The IWI page says Negev N7 TOT is with Punj Lloyd.

I was told that the muzzle break suppresses the recoil to almost negligible levels.

Negev has significant recoil. Too bad that back in the day ST Kinetics got blacklisted. Their "constant recoil" design Ultimax LMG is what sets the benchmark for low recoil.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 25 Mar 2020 13:15

^ Thakur ji, what do you think about the Knights Light Assault Machine Gun?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 25 Mar 2020 14:00

Punj Lloyd if I remember correctly went bankrupt. Anyway, NO ToT, no indigenous manufacturing and no offsets for Negev N7 and Sig. Even the packing will come from abroad.