Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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Atmavik
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

Looks like AK 203 deal will be signed during Purim’s visit. So we are standardizing on Ak for CT + para military and SIG for frontline infantry? How many SIG did we get ? Is INSAS being phased out ?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

Better image of ARDE carbine and Asmi.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

Rahul Singh
@rahulsinghx
India green-lights Rs 5,100-crore project for the joint production of more than 500,000 AK-203 assault rifles with Russia at a facility in UP's Amethi, ahead of President Vladimir Putin’s two-day visit to India on December 6 for an annual summit with Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
chetak
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Atmavik wrote:Looks like AK 203 deal will be signed during Purim’s visit. So we are standardizing on Ak for CT + para military and SIG for frontline infantry? How many SIG did we get ? Is INSAS being phased out ?

Isn't this is a direct attack on the employment of our desi katta makers of UP/bihar, this decision is taken only to benifit ambani/adani

this could have provided employment to lakhs of poor farmers



Image
AK-203 assault rifle to be built at Korwa, Amethi UP
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image
Image

Older and newer prototype of ARDE CQB carbine on display.

https://www.gujaratheadline.com/nationa ... -security/

Looks like Lt.Col. Bansod, the designer for Asmi has been sent on deputation to ARDE.
Atmavik
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

This maybe common knowledge but still posting here. we were outgunned and outranged by LTTE who had ak 47.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-swuTThIQU @ 16:30

Atmavik
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

Atmavik wrote:This maybe common knowledge but still posting here. we were outgunned and outranged by LTTE who had ak 47.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-swuTThIQU @ 16:30


this has also happened to the Americans in Afghanistan. why does this happen to conventional armies ?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/1 ... -cartridge
Aditya_V
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

INSAS saga goes like this, In Sri Lanka our soldiers had SLR and LTTE AK 56- Yes Chinese's and Pakis supplied arms to the LTTE. The Army found SLR was unwieldy for close combat. Then the idea of adopting 5.56 was born, post Kargil and 2000-05 Coin and LOC conflicts it was found 5.56 was not a good caliber either for close combat and 7.62*39 was much better, but lousy for the Desert and High Altitude operations, hence the Multi barrel rifle Saga.

Now the Army has come to the logical conclusion which suggested years before

2 Rifles are required

1) 7.62*39 for COIN, Jungle other areas where close combat operations

2) &.62*51 Nato for areas where engagement ranges are greater.

In all this Squad automatic weapons and sniper weapons take a back seat.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Atmavik wrote:This maybe common knowledge but still posting here. we were outgunned and outranged by LTTE who had ak 47.
And that's the disgraceful part. We were outgunned not because we were poorer, but in spite of the fact that we were richer & bigger. Just like being out-ranged by AIM-120D post-Balakot or have a poorer AEW coverage than beggar Pakis.

Our wounds are self-inflicted. And they continue to be inflicted because there is no punishment for these kinds of mistakes.
Pratyush
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I think that the calibre saga is a case of competing requirements dictating the calibre to be chosen.

There are multiple parallels of this confusion in various armies during the last 100 to 120 years.

Nearly all major armies have had to deal with this.

And they have evolved from full power to intermediate power with experience.

The US army with 30-06 and the 30 calibre carbine.

The USSR the full power 7.62*54 and 7.62*39.

The Germans with 8mm full power and Kurtz during WW2.

The difference between these armies and the Indian army is that Indian army due to real or perceived inadequacy of domestic providers is looking for imported solution's to overcome these issues.

I hope that within the Indian army and the developing designer base, we will not need to import the next fire arm.
YashG
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

OT Alert:
chetak wrote: Isn't this is a direct attack on the employment of our desi katta makers of UP/bihar, this decision is taken only to benifit ambani/adani
this could have provided employment to lakhs of poor farmers
As long as selling airports at half price to adani & making textile/telecom policies specially suited to only benefit ambani etc. was concerned it was all going well. But by not giving this contract to some adani/ambani shell company, we are setting up a wrong example.
chetak
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

YashG wrote:OT Alert:
chetak wrote: Isn't this is a direct attack on the employment of our desi katta makers of UP/bihar, this decision is taken only to benifit ambani/adani
this could have provided employment to lakhs of poor farmers
As long as selling airports at half price to adani & making textile/telecom policies specially suited to only benefit ambani etc. was concerned it was all going well. But by not giving this contract to some adani/ambani shell company, we are setting up a wrong example.
YashG ji

airports haven't been sold but leased....

anyone could have bid, it was openly tendered.

adani has contracts to run airports in other countries too. It is a good business to be in. Bangalore and a big airport in UP have been won by a zurich airport consortium via open tender. The congis shut down the city airport in bangalore and put down a condition that no other airport can come up within (IIRC) 150 or so KMs of the new bangalore gora built airport, just as the zurich airport had demanded.

london, paris and many other cities in many countries have multiple airports. No one ever shuts down a perfectly efficient existing airport to accommodate some greedy white skinned punks, except the white skinned mafia run congi govts. IIRC, they did the same in hyderabad too when they shut down begumpet and someone built the new airport

the "on demand" making of favorable textile/telecom policies was a congi govt run scam that was exploited by those in the know. Not excusing but explaining onlee.

BTW, people just couldn't crash the party, they had to be "invited" to the exclusive club

the so called "famous" IT companies run by some wokes, including big name industrialists have all, without exceptions, exploited very similar loopholes that they paid to create or didn't you know.

None of these coolie companies have ever developed any "original" software of their own and became huge "conglomerates" merely by body shopping and labor arbitrage and employee exploitation.


If you couldn't make out the sarcasm, clue: "katta makers" and "poor farmers" were specifically mentioned, no one can help you.
chetak
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Aditya_V wrote:INSAS saga goes like this, In Sri Lanka our soldiers had SLR and LTTE AK 56- Yes Chinese's and Pakis supplied arms to the LTTE. The Army found SLR was unwieldy for close combat. Then the idea of adopting 5.56 was born, post Kargil and 2000-05 Coin and LOC conflicts it was found 5.56 was not a good caliber either for close combat and 7.62*39 was much better, but lousy for the Desert and High Altitude operations, hence the Multi barrel rifle Saga.

Now the Army has come to the logical conclusion which suggested years before

2 Rifles are required

1) 7.62*39 for COIN, Jungle other areas where close combat operations

2) &.62*51 Nato for areas where engagement ranges are greater.

In all this Squad automatic weapons and sniper weapons take a back seat.
Aditya_V ji

these are being handled separately as they should be.

INSAS was not the optimal weapon to be used in high intensity combat situations due to inherent design issues and performance shortcomings

especially difficult to use in an urban setting like cashmere where most units preferred to use captured AKs. Don't know the current preferences now
Then the idea of adopting 5.56 was born, post Kargil
the idea of adopting the 5.56 was originally NATO initiated and many countries revisited their requirements after the NATO studies were presented in some thinktanki seminars
YashG
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

chetak wrote:
YashG wrote:OT Alert:


As long as selling airports at half price to adani & making textile/telecom policies specially suited to only benefit ambani etc. was concerned it was all going well. But by not giving this contract to some adani/ambani shell company, we are setting up a wrong example.
YashG ji

airports haven't been sold but leased....

anyone could have bid, it was openly tendered.

............

None of these coolie companies have ever developed any "original" software of their own and became huge "conglomerates" merely by body shopping and labor arbitrage and employee exploitation.


If you couldn't make out the sarcasm, clue: "katta makers" and "poor farmers" were specifically mentioned, no one can help you.
Chetakji, I took the liberty of going OT once, but would not do it again. Lets bury this here. Indeed if possible for me, I'd go back and delete my post.
chetak
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

YashG wrote:
chetak wrote:
YashG ji

airports haven't been sold but leased....

anyone could have bid, it was openly tendered.

............

None of these coolie companies have ever developed any "original" software of their own and became huge "conglomerates" merely by body shopping and labor arbitrage and employee exploitation.


If you couldn't make out the sarcasm, clue: "katta makers" and "poor farmers" were specifically mentioned, no one can help you.
Chetakji, I took the liberty of going OT once, but would not do it again. Lets bury this here. Indeed if possible for me, I'd go back and delete my post.
nothing to bury here, YashG ji.

you are entitled to your say. Please do not delete.

wires got crossed is all. No big deal

I should have been more clear about the sarcasm bit

take care
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ParGha »

Atmavik wrote:This maybe common knowledge but still posting here. we were outgunned and outranged by LTTE who had ak 47.
With all due respect to the Brigadier, it was NOT the first time that Indian troops had encountered enemies with AK-47s / Type-56s. The first time that Indian troops encountered the Type-56 was during the 1967 Cho La Clashes with the Chinese. Plenty of Chinese Type-56s were also encountered with the Pakistani forces in 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War. See below for a picture of Pakistani troops surrendering their Type-56 assault rifles:
Image

The fact that IPKF troops had SLRs and some of the LTTE fighters had AK-47s/Type-56s was a small -- and IMHO, inconsequential -- symptom of a much larger problem. The larger problem was that there was no clear and cohesive political purpose to the Indian mission. You can have the best armed, best trained and best funded military in the world, but they will achieve nothing without a clear purpose against an ill-armed, ill-trained and poor enemy who has a clear purpose.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

ParGha wrote:
Atmavik wrote:This maybe common knowledge but still posting here. we were outgunned and outranged by LTTE who had ak 47.
With all due respect to the Brigadier, it was NOT the first time that Indian troops had encountered enemies with AK-47s / Type-56s. The first time that Indian troops encountered the Type-56 was during the 1967 Cho La Clashes with the Chinese. Plenty of Chinese Type-56s were also encountered with the Pakistani forces in 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War. See below for a picture of Pakistani troops surrendering their Type-56 assault rifles:
Image

The fact that IPKF troops had SLRs and some of the LTTE fighters had AK-47s/Type-56s was a small -- and IMHO, inconsequential -- symptom of a much larger problem. The larger problem was that there was no clear and cohesive political purpose to the Indian mission. You can have the best armed, best trained and best funded military in the world, but they will achieve nothing without a clear purpose against an ill-armed, ill-trained and poor enemy who has a clear purpose.
Well said ParGha.
The AKs were the least of our worries.
The men were cannon fodder for the fantasies of our senior political and military leadership.
The LTTE knew all our tactics.
They were trained by RAW.

Our men went in not knowing how bloody competent the LTTE was and even if they did there was no strategy to cater for things going south - which they did.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Srutayus »

This maybe common knowledge but still posting here. we were outgunned and outranged by LTTE who had ak 47.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-swuTThIQU @ 16:30
This panel discussion was incredibly revelatory for me. And I am not talking about the small arms part.

As a kid in school in Chennai (them Madras) in the late 80s one would hear the other boys pass on rumour's about the number of times that Prabhakaran was surrounded by the Indian Army, who then had to let him go on orders from the higher ups in Delhi. Never expected this to be literally true.
Atmavik
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

strat news global is doing an entire series on IPKF and will be uploading more videos. i agree with other members that small arms was not our main issue but for the infantry it is very important and the fact that we could not get the basics right is disturbing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnhVo7oeLv4&t=14s
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Atmavik wrote:This maybe common knowledge but still posting here. we were outgunned and outranged by LTTE who had ak 47.
I can understand our troops being encumbered in CQB because the SLR was heavy, unwieldy and could not fire on full-auto, but how does a 7.62x39mm rifle with a 16 inch barrel "outrange" a 7.62x51mm rifle with a 21.7 inch barrel?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

It will not, a normal human cannot hit a man size target at more 300mts, that's why Sig 7.62*51 ammo rifles. We clearly need 2 rifles , I for deserts, high altitude low vegetation areas and another for Jungles and Urban areas .
Atmavik
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

Aditya_V wrote:It will not, a normal human cannot hit a man size target at more 300mts, that's why Sig 7.62*51 ammo rifles. We clearly need 2 rifles , I for deserts, high altitude low vegetation areas and another for Jungles and Urban areas .

you probably meant AK for CI/CT/CQC and Sig for frontline infantry.

here is Nitin Gokhale with a sig in the jungles of Arunachal.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale?ref_sr ... r%5Eauthor


Image
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

7.62x39 is the worst performer amongst all standard rifle calibers against bullet proof jackets and other protection. It is inferior in terms of long range engagement as well. IA is stuck in CI mindset.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Thakur_B wrote:7.62x39 is the worst performer amongst all standard rifle calibers against bullet proof jackets and other protection. It is inferior in terms of long range engagement as well. IA is stuck in CI mindset.
Thakur_B the problem is that a whole generation of officers have done nothing but CI. A good CI tenure is a must for promo. Pakistan has bogged our training and mindset and achieved something..
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

It's quite interesting that in the last 50 or so years US army the USSR army and the Indian army all were involved in CI campaigns. US army in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. USSR in Afghanistan and Russia in Chechnya. Both the big power's were able to pivot away from the CI quite quickly.

Yet only the officers of the Indian army is stuck in a CI mindset. The Indian Army's counter insurgency forces are a fraction of the available manpower and combat power available to it.

Perhaps we are not seeing the full picture to figure out the institutional thinking of the Indian Army. When it comes to the small arms composition of the infantry forces.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush ji, could it be that unlike the other two global powers, the IA have fought insurgency within our borders and with a huge percentage of the insurgents being our own country men?

Sachin ji has pointed out that the Pakis have successfully bogged down our training and mindset, as they themselves regressed (virtue of the economic imbalance) but did we fail to acknowledge the ever lurking and steadily escalating Chinese threat on the other side, in the upper tier Officer Cadre training ?

Not that the Chinese have fought any major traditional open wars for a long time nor do they have any CI experience of the level which the IA has...

Or maybe this itself came to be the dominant part of thinking - that our wider CI experience and geography would keep the scales tilted in our favor - plus the skirmishes would mostly remain localized and end with small gains/losses or in stalemate (due to the nuclear overhang) .
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:
Yet only the officers of the Indian army is stuck in a CI mindset. The Indian Army's counter insurgency forces are a fraction of the available manpower and combat power available to it.

.
Sirji you will have to revisit this. Go through the affiliations of RR battalions.
How do inf / Armd/ eng Regts staff their RR bns when sanctioned strength on said regt does not go up?
Also see how other arms have been sucked into CI. Also see how troops not in the CI grid still are dual tasked.
What happens to training regimen of a bn deinducted from CI grid?
How does a bn posted into CI grid or NE prep?
If offers from all arms are thinking of CI when do they have time to think of conventional ops. A lot of them at least when I met them came out like zombies. It takes a while to mentally deinduct.
Can the hi tempo CI cauldron be then matched with a high tempo conventional doctrine training effectively?

Plus factor in organisational inertia and a lack of vision. Name the last visionary chief we had.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by souravB »

ks_sachin wrote: Also see how other arms have been sucked into CI. Also see how troops not in the CI grid still are dual tasked.
[--snip--]
Plus factor in organisational inertia and a lack of vision. Name the last visionary chief we had.
Nanha Mujahid here. Pondered on these points for long. Over time formed some thoughts on this which may construed as either be a reprisal of old thoughts or musings of an arm-chair marshal.
Thakur_B wrote:7.62x39 is the worst performer amongst all standard rifle calibers against bullet proof jackets and other protection. It is inferior in terms of long range engagement as well. IA is stuck in CI mindset.
I'd argue IA as an institution has never had a better rifle than AK (716i is quite new to form an opinion). Comparing to SLR, which is heavy, and INSAS, an AK will feel like an iPhone. IMO it is not the caliber they are hung up on but the platform. & in their mind 7.62x39 and AK is synonymous. IA wants the reliability of AK. Rest is all budgetary concerns & smokes.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

souravB wrote: Nanha Mujahid here. Pondered on these points for long. Over time formed some thoughts on this which may construed as either be a reprisal of old thoughts or musings of an arm-chair marshal.
Not sure I understand?
Are you saying that some thoughts on why the predominant CI mindset is wrong?
I am an arm chair warrior but I do validate my musings with non-arm chair types
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by souravB »

ks_sachin wrote: Not sure I understand?
Are you saying that some thoughts on why the predominant CI mindset is wrong?
I am an arm chair warrior but I do validate my musings with non-arm chair types
If I'm to expand on it, I'd say IA shouldn't do Counter Insurgency, especially inside the country. It is not a novel thought by a stretch I know, but validating with a few non-chairs have marked me as a heretic. I'd also be pleasantly surprised if I don't get an warning over this post. :)
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Bala Vignesh »

souravB wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: Not sure I understand?
Are you saying that some thoughts on why the predominant CI mindset is wrong?
I am an arm chair warrior but I do validate my musings with non-arm chair types
If I'm to expand on it, I'd say IA shouldn't do Counter Insurgency, especially inside the country. It is not a novel thought by a stretch I know, but validating with a few non-chairs have marked me as a heretic. I'd also be pleasantly surprised if I don't get an warning over this post. :)
Well technically IA doesn't do CI in the hinterland. It is dual tasked only on the frontlines. Its the RR and the AR that are tasked with CI ops in J&K and NE respectively, both of which are separate paramilitary forces. Their staffing is a different can of worms all together.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Bala Vignesh wrote:
souravB wrote: If I'm to expand on it, I'd say IA shouldn't do Counter Insurgency, especially inside the country. It is not a novel thought by a stretch I know, but validating with a few non-chairs have marked me as a heretic. I'd also be pleasantly surprised if I don't get an warning over this post. :)
Well technically IA doesn't do CI in the hinterland. It is dual tasked only on the frontlines. Its the RR and the AR that are tasked with CI ops in J&K and NE respectively, both of which are separate paramilitary forces. Their staffing is a different can of worms all together.
It’s the same men and officers.
You are speaking like our company lawyers.
Army should not be in CI period. But then who else??
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

souravB wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: Not sure I understand?
Are you saying that some thoughts on why the predominant CI mindset is wrong?
I am an arm chair warrior but I do validate my musings with non-arm chair types
If I'm to expand on it, I'd say IA shouldn't do Counter Insurgency, especially inside the country. It is not a novel thought by a stretch I know, but validating with a few non-chairs have marked me as a heretic. I'd also be pleasantly surprised if I don't get an warning over this post. :)
Why should you get a warning?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »



SiG MCX Raptor in 7.62x51. This was the development prototype for SiGs NGSW submission.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by souravB »

ks_sachin wrote:--snip--
Army should not be in CI period. But then who else??
CRPF. Use of NSG in should also be more liberalized in urban/semi-urban areas.
Moving IA from CI ops can also open up ways for more capex allocation.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Thakur_B wrote:.

https://www.gujaratheadline.com/nationa ... -security/

Looks like Lt.Col. Bansod, the designer for Asmi has been sent on deputation to ARDE.
Video of Asmi being fired.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SandeepUnnit ... 9771721729
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

sourav, IA's CI task is in border states where there is a high degree of foreign linkages.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by souravB »

ramana wrote:sourav, IA's CI task is in border states where there is a high degree of foreign linkages.
Ramana garu, I know. But that is my point that GoI couldn't stand a police force who can mount kinetic operations against foreign linkages in those areas.
It made sense when other institutions were not upto the task and IA was the only quick option for the political class. But in 2021, fiscally too, it doesn't make sense since it is a duplication of resources where CRPF use similar equipment &/or tactics in Forest belt.
Anyway since this thread is going OT, we can stop this discussion here or move to a more suitable place for it.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image
Image

Orsis 5000T multicaliber sniper rifle, Thales F90 (modernised Steyr Aug) and JVPC by Kalyani.
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