Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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Pratyush
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

In the US market fully automatic firearms are no longer available to civilian market post the automatic weapons ban in the 1980s. So none of the us market Sig weapons would actually be fully automatic. They might be using bump stock. But that's not automatic weapon.
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

That's true.

But you could see the recoil even in the single shot and the rapid fire single shot modes. And the recoil was approx the same with comparative rifles like the Scar 17.

In any case our boys who are drilled hard on precision firing will rarely be doing the pray-and-spray suppression fire with this platform.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Manish_P wrote:That's true.

But you could see the recoil even in the single shot and the rapid fire single shot modes. And the recoil was approx the same with comparative rifles like the Scar 17.

In any case our boys who are drilled hard on precision firing will rarely be doing the pray-and-spray suppression fire with this platform.
Sig is conventional infantry roles.
The AK is for CI roles.
You will less likely use burst semi or auto in normal inf role but because of our terrain the added range the Sig gives is useful.
AK works in CI as engagements are at closer ranges plus volume of fire needed could be greater.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

ramana wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:The dragunov upgrade boat has already passed. Army is in talks with Kalashnikov for OEM certified upgrades.

Vivek krishan was whinging about the situation on Twitter.
How many Dragunovs are there in IA for this upgrade?

The army seems to like to put its head in a lion's mouth and hope it doest bite!
Sad part is, Russian Special forces themselves use US Civilian market upgrades for their Dragunovs.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

^ that's interesting. Would Optics (specifically night enhancement kind) be the major component being bought?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Image

is the ammunition common or different for all gun types here?
Pratyush
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Only the PLA 6.8 mm is missing and all major present munitions will be is service with the Indian army.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

There is no 5.56, I think.
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

jamwal wrote:Image

is the ammunition common or different for all gun types here?
2 Sigs
1 CG
1 Dragunov
Rest AK some with upgraded furniture.

No problems per se. Don’t think they would all be from same unit.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Manish_P wrote:^ that's interesting. Would Optics (specifically night enhancement kind) be the major component being bought?
No
jamwal
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

ks_sachin wrote:
No problems per se. Don’t think they would all be from same unit.
I thought it was a single section. BTW, Isn't carrying 3 different ammunition types a strain on logistics? Lets ignore Dragunov, even then its 2 different types for just assault rifles.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

jamwal wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
No problems per se. Don’t think they would all be from same unit.
I thought it was a single section. BTW, Isn't carrying 3 different ammunition types a strain on logistics? Lets ignore Dragunov, even then its 2 different types for just assault rifles.
Well the Dragunov guy would be from a different company most likely much like the MMG platoon ParGha or Thakur_B can correct me.
So I correct myself could be same unit but depending on op different skills will be pulled together. In such engagements each carries his ammo with support weapons load divvied up. Not much chance of resupply or need it is going to be prolonged in which case there would be more people involved.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

One of the Sigs has a scope on it ?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Prasad wrote:One of the Sigs has a scope on it ?
Sir are you saying that the other one is "out of scope"....
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Manish_P wrote:^ that's interesting. Would Optics (specifically night enhancement kind) be the major component being bought?
Image

Surefire made chassis for Dragunov used by Russian SF. Essentially same thing is being pitched by SSS defence.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

^ Thanks for the info Thakur ji

Am quite surprised to know that chassis is the component.

A couple of years back there was a very informative post on this forum (perhaps by Brar_w, NRao or KaranM) about how the Russians had fallen behind, and were being sneakily kept behind (via tech denial), in optics tech. Though I think that article specifically referred to high end systems used in aircrafts, tanks etc.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Thakur_B wrote:
Manish_P wrote:^ that's interesting. Would Optics (specifically night enhancement kind) be the major component being bought?
Image

Surefire made chassis for Dragunov used by Russian SF. Essentially same thing is being pitched by SSS defence.
Blimey, those sharpshooters in the middle are women..
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

If Americans, they'd be civilians.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »





A video from print regarding the employment of SIG 716 for operations along with an exploration of the situation on the ground.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

https://theprint.in/defence/army-uses-j ... 98631/?amp

Army uses ‘jugaad’ to turn the American SiG 716 into a mean rifle for soldiers at LoC
The SiG 716 rifles lacked certain add-ons when first handed to soldiers at LoC in Dec 2019. However, minor tweaks to equip it with night sight, better grip & more cost-effective ammunition has made it formidable.
There was also the issue of the rifle sights — the optical device meant for the rifle was not bought to keep the cost down. This effectively made the rifle “almost blind” when operating the dark. :lol:

Ammunition was also a concern. While the Americans sold the rifle at a cheaper cost, the ammunition was expensive and hence this meant that a limited quantity was bought.

“A company might sell a rifle at a particular cost. But it makes better money through ammunition and servicing just like a car company does,” another source said. :rotfl:

The grip of the rifle was another stumbling block. Indian soldiers were used to the shorter barrel of the AK-47s for operations, which gave them better grip. In fact, troops had even fixed wooden handles beneath the barrel to improve the grip.

However, when it came to the SiG 716, the rifle did not come with any additional equipment than the standard issue.
T-90 like ***tiyapa everywhere.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

No. Everything except the ammo situation (maybe even that) makes absolute sense. We bought the gun and nothing else. We use our own equipment to fit them out. Calling it jugaad is just silly. Cuts down training time too.

Buying the rifle in the first place after making everyone run around for ten years is the big qtiyapa.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

What are the advantages of Sig 716 with Indian Ammo over the SLR, is it lighter, lesser recoil with 7.62*51 Ammo , has fully auto mode?

I think using 5.56*45 ammo which came out of the SL jungle experience in areas where engagements ranges were longer is stupid.

I think it is correct to use Ak family in Jungles, COIN, terrain where engagements ranges are shorter with smaller barrels and lesser recoil and 7.62*51 mm in areas where engagement ranges are longer.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Aditya_V wrote:What are the advantages of Sig 716 with Indian Ammo over the SLR, is it lighter, lesser recoil with 7.62*51 Ammo , has fully auto mode?

I think using 5.56*45 ammo which came out of the SL jungle experience in areas where engagements ranges were longer is stupid.

I think it is correct to use Ak family in Jungles, COIN, terrain where engagements ranges are shorter with smaller barrels and lesser recoil and 7.62*51 mm in areas where engagement ranges are longer.
Length, weight, reliability, recoil ti name a few.

You should fire the SLR. Don't hold it properly and goodbye shoulder for a few days.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

ks_sachin wrote: Length, weight, reliability, recoil ti name a few.

You should fire the SLR. Don't hold it properly and goodbye shoulder for a few days.
Won't the longer barrel of the SLR help reduce the recoil over the 716?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

The SLR was unwieldy. The Sig looks a lot more ergonomic.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Importing 7.62x51 ammunition after having it for close to 30 years as standard ammunition is the biggest travesty.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

^ sir, surely we can restart manufacturing the ammunition, can't we?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

There has to be a mistake somewhere in reporting. Because the money making model being discussed with relation to fire arms is not correct.

Nations even when fire arms from abroad still like to have independent sources of ammunition.

Especially when that ammunition is not a proprietary design. Nothing compelled India to buy this item from SIG.

But, if we are actually buying this ammunition from abroad. Then we have bigger problems than just not being able to produce this round.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Manish_P wrote:^ sir, surely we can restart manufacturing the ammunition, can't we?
Did we stop?
The MMG is 7.62X51 as is the LMG which was in use till the Negev replaced it.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

To tackle the ammunition issue, the Army replaced the original American make with locally manufactured and easily available rounds of the 7.62 light machine gun (LMG).

The drawback, though, is that these are high powered rounds which make the recoil higher than what the rifle would have if the original ammunition was used.
The sight systems meant for the SiG 716 has a pointer to tell the soldier where exactly the bullet will hit. In case of other sights being used, the pointer will vary but the difference is minimal.

So higher recoil as seen in some videos, sub-optimal sights which are not accurate. And these are meant for frontline troops.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

I don't think we stopped completely. Possibly reduced significantly since we shifted to other caliber for our assault rifles.

Hence my query that can't we re-tool our factories back to manufacturing of this caliber. It might take some time (a few months, a year?)

Or is there any clause in the deal which specifies that ammo also has to be procured from Sig and it's OEM partners.. else warranty is void :-?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

The issue is not manufacturing of ammunition, it is quality of ammunition. OFB made 7.62x51 ammunition is notoriously bad. The 5.56x45 INSAS ammunition is ok-ish. 5.56x45 SS109 and M193 equivalent again is bad. 7.62x39 is decent probably because most AKMs are overgassed and the brutish hammer in AKMs ensures that light primer strikes don't happen.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

jamwal wrote:
To tackle the ammunition issue, the Army replaced the original American make with locally manufactured and easily available rounds of the 7.62 light machine gun (LMG).

The drawback, though, is that these are high powered rounds which make the recoil higher than what the rifle would have if the original ammunition was used.
The sight systems meant for the SiG 716 has a pointer to tell the soldier where exactly the bullet will hit. In case of other sights being used, the pointer will vary but the difference is minimal.

So higher recoil as seen in some videos, sub-optimal sights which are not accurate. And these are meant for frontline troops.
SiG 716 deal is probably the best deal one could hope for for 7.62x51 rifles. It is barely costing more than US contract for M4 carbines. All accessories can be made in India, downright from grips to lasers, thermal imagers, optics, image intensifiers.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Ah that old OFB bug bear.. I suspected it might be partly QC but didn't imagine it would be to this extent :(

While it is a major problem, at least it is still a solvable one.

The government hopefully will eventually succeed in belling the lazy OFB cat, but maybe for now some private players may be given the opportunity to get into this ammo production business.

(Yes, I am acutely aware of the painfully slow movement and various obstacles put in the path of Make in India, Atma Nirbharta. Still keeping the faith)
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Thakur_B wrote:The issue is not manufacturing of ammunition, it is quality of ammunition. OFB made 7.62x51 ammunition is notoriously bad. The 5.56x45 INSAS ammunition is ok-ish. 5.56x45 SS109 and M193 equivalent again is bad. 7.62x39 is decent probably because most AKMs are overgassed and the brutish hammer in AKMs ensures that light primer strikes don't happen.
The OFB has been exporting its 5.56x45 ammo to the US lately and has been getting repeat orders. This would convey that the quality should be OK.
Any source to show that the OFB 7.62x51 ammo is bad? The same is used in our LMGs for a long time and I have never come across any complaints with regards to the same.

All that the article says is that maybe a first lot of ammo for the guns was procured along with the guns and this was expensive, as compared to domestic sources. This has since been replaced with OFB manufactured 7.62x51 rounds, same as used in the LMGs. The recoil for the guns is high and the article alludes the that OFB rounds have higher energy and hence the recoil is more as compared to when used with imported rounds. However, this would be strange as the caliber and size of the rounds is the same and there cannot be a significant difference in the energy of the rounds.

The recoil of these guns is more and they should be used as the more accurate rifles for engagement at higher ranges along the LoC. For all COIN ops the AK knockoffs are good enough.

For the eastern border and particularly for arms like the ITBP, SSB and Assam Rifles I would actually prefer if they went with Excalibur rifles. Most of the issues associated with the INSAS were sorted out in the Excalibur and trials for the same were also successful. Even for the China front, the lower weight of the ammo would be helpful, given the terrain and the altitude. Also, the rifles are more accurate as compared with AK derivatives over medium ranges.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Those OFB bullets are mostly for civilian market which is facing serious ammunition shortage lately. Americans have imported different types of ammunitions from various countries including Malaysia, Ethiopia and a few others.
Aditya_V wrote:What are the advantages of Sig 716 with Indian Ammo over the SLR, is it lighter, lesser recoil with 7.62*51 Ammo , has fully auto mode?

I think using 5.56*45 ammo which came out of the SL jungle experience in areas where engagements ranges were longer is stupid.

I think it is correct to use Ak family in Jungles, COIN, terrain where engagements ranges are shorter with smaller barrels and lesser recoil and 7.62*51 mm in areas where engagement ranges are longer.

Take a look at LoC terrain, it mostly hilly and mountainous. Troops deployed on border usually need high accuracy over long distances.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Anshuman.Kumar »

So High Recoil is because of ammunition and not because of the rifle for Sig 716,but for OFB version of 7.62*51 assault rifle..the recoil was due to the weapon itself and hence not worth even considering.
But the okayish 5.56*45 mm ammo of OFB is good for repeat orders by US
It's pretty obvious where actually the problem lies..and it's certainly not the OFB
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Anshuman ji, for over an year there has been an incredible shortage of Ammunition in US civilian market. They have been buying anything and everything under the sun. Ammunition prices have gone up 4-5 fold. Even 40 year old Soviet surplus steel cased ammunition is selling like hot cakes.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The issue with ammunition has to be solved within India. Because in the event of a conflict we cannot be going to partner nations hat in had saying "allah ke naam pe 100 millions 7.62 bullets de de re baba. Jodi salamat rakhe ga" :((
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

The northern command had a few months back floated rfp for procurement of ammunition from private sector. SSS defence has tied up with Brazilian ammunition maker for setting up ammunition manufacturing line in India.

Change is on the way at a glacial pace.
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