Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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mody
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by mody »

The army has ordered 300 upgrade kits for the Ak-47s from SSS Defense. Note that earlier they had bought just a small token amount of kits for evaluation. This seems to be a follow on order for another small batch to maybe check the consistency. Hopefully a larger bulk order should follow. This is how the MoD usually places the orders.

Don't understant though, with the SSS defense upgrade kit and the trichy assault rifle, we preety much have the Ak-203 available in house. Why exactly did we need to go to the Russians?
RoyG
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by RoyG »

mody wrote:The army has ordered 300 upgrade kits for the Ak-47s from SSS Defense. Note that earlier they had bought just a small token amount of kits for evaluation. This seems to be a follow on order for another small batch to maybe check the consistency. Hopefully a larger bulk order should follow. This is how the MoD usually places the orders.

Don't understant though, with the SSS defense upgrade kit and the trichy assault rifle, we preety much have the Ak-203 available in house. Why exactly did we need to go to the Russians?
A whole industry of middlemen, IAS, senior defence guys make $. Small orders and consistency are compromises to to give the appearance of change in the system. Perhaps Modi should come up with another political gimmick - 'Design in India". Of course this will only lead to design in India by foreign companies and the same cycle starts again.

This bureaucratic collusive and parasitic apparatus is more powerful than the PMO. It remains the same even after so many decades. If you want meaningful change with large orders pull out civil services from procurement, stop this emergency route for most items, and sell off most of the PSU to private players.
Vips
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

PLR Systems has completed the delivery of 500 Masada 9 MM pistols ordered by Navy for the Marcos commandos.

It takes the armed forces 16 months to procure this piddly number of hand guns under a "fast track order" using the emergecy funds provision. God save us.
mody
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Wonder how much actual manufacturing does PLR systems do in India and how much is just screwdrivergiri? All the designs are Israeli and I am sure none of the knowhow will ever get passed on.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

There is nothing to know how in small arms. It's just mechanical engineering and good manufacturing.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thakur, Did OFB make a telescope sight for the Lee-Enfields?
Thanks in advance.
Cyrano
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

A whole industry of middlemen, IAS, senior defence guys make $. Small orders and consistency are compromises to to give the appearance of change in the system
I think the retd officers who are joining Bharat Jodo Yatra might be the tip of this iceberg. Would be nice if someone could do OSint research on the published names for their involvement in evaluations, trials, decision committees and order placement.

I have a feeling this can lead somewhere...
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

ramana wrote:Thakur, Did OFB make a telescope sight for the Lee-Enfields?
Thanks in advance.
To the best of my knowledge, no. We continued on SMLE Mk III pattern while the Brits, Canadians and Australians moved to Mk IV pattern which was further evolved to accept scopes. The SMLE's Enfield action was never a very precise action to begin with unlike the Mauser action whic is what is found in 99% of precision bolt action nowadays.
nachiket
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Thakur_B wrote: Let the circus carry on :lol:
Well we have come full circle after all. We dumped the SLR for the 5.56 INSAS because the rifle was too big and unwieldy, the ammo was heavy and it was uncontrollable in full-auto (and hence disabled). Now we have a shiny new import with the same heavy ammo with most of the same issues with recoil etc. A decade or two down the line someone will again come up with the bright new idea of switching to lighter ammunition with a flatter trajectory in a smaller/lighter select-fire rifle which can actually be used on full-auto in a pinch. Then we will again import whatever catches our fancy in the latest brochures of the time. I'm sure any budding local firms like SSS Defence etc. attempting to get into small arms design and manufacturing would have closed down or moved on to other things by then.

Now that the Americans are switching to the SIG MCX Spear in 6.8x51mm I can only imagine what will happen when some of our potential GSQR writers get their hands on one of them during some future bilateral exercise.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thakur_B wrote:
ramana wrote:Thakur, Did OFB make a telescope sight for the Lee-Enfields?
Thanks in advance.
To the best of my knowledge, no. We continued on SMLE Mk III pattern while the Brits, Canadians and Australians moved to Mk IV pattern which was further evolved to accept scopes. The SMLE's Enfield action was never a very precise action to begin with unlike the Mauser action which is what is found in 99% of precision bolt action nowadays.

Thakur, Thanks for the clear reply.

Hence SLR and Insas are being issued to VDC in Kashmir.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

nachiket, The opponent is PLA now and not rag tag terrorists.
So need a rifle round that kills them dead and does not sting them.
So it has to be a heavy round and if it's common to LMG it helps.
The INSAS selection was a mistake and no one questioned it.
Folks got carried away by US hype about the M-16 and 5.56 rounds.
The Sig Sauers were emergency import. The vast majority of the force needs a good rifle.
With Ukraine War going on Russia will be in no position to support the AK 203 factory.
Now there are private players who can compete with RIF.
sanjayc
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

INSAS can be a good police / para-military rifle, and the surplus from the army should be assigned to that role. INSAS rifle should be developed further for law-enforcement use. There was a 1C version planned that was shelved. This needs to be taken up again, till we have a very reliable, lightweight rifle that is 100% indigenous. Private sector can be roped in for its production / further designs
ernest
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ernest »

sanjayc wrote:INSAS can be a good police / para-military rifle, and the surplus from the army should be assigned to that role. INSAS rifle should be developed further for law-enforcement use. There was a 1C version planned that was shelved. This needs to be taken up again, till we have a very reliable, lightweight rifle that is 100% indigenous. Private sector can be roped in for its production / further designs
Good point. The variety of roles and regions where our armed forces and L&O units are deployed, standardizing on one cartridge will be counterproductive. We need at least 2 cartridges, and 2 families of small arms with full IP and supply chain in India. One intermediate cartridge (5.56x45 or 7.62x39) for urban, CI, police force like situations. Another full battle rifle cartridge (7.62x51, or newer cartridges like 6.5 Creedmoor) for use by army on border and beyond, capable of defeating body armor at distances.

In short term, we can continue with INSAS designs or local AK designs for first category, while we develop and finalize on which one to standardize in next decade. From there, phase out the other cartridge and firearms family. Involvement of domestic private players during this process will be important, so that we don't get back to OFB fiasco with INSAS.

For battle rifle, we have imported SIG716, and there are similar domestic designs. We have to spend the next decade planning and creating the ecosystem to have an Indian family of 7.62(or similar) to standardize on.
pravula
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by pravula »

300 Blackout and 6.8 are options if we want to emulate US.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »



Insas UBGL video made by NSG armourer. The channel has details of all weapons used by NSG including Franchi SPAS shotguns, SiG 551, Glocks and SiG MPX.
nachiket
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Thakur_B wrote: Insas UBGL video made by NSG armourer. The channel has details of all weapons used by NSG including Franchi SPAS shotguns, SiG 551, Glocks and SiG MPX.
Thanks for that. I remember some years back H&K had refused to sell weapons to the BSF because of "human rights" reasons. I had wondered if they would do the same with the NSG who were using the MP5 as their main weapon. Looks like the NSG has moved on to the SIG MPX now. These have been seen in newer NSG pics for a while but in my my mind I had been thinking it was just a modernized variant of the MP5 with picatinny rails and new optics because of the similar weapon profile :lol:
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Looks like VayuSena got them for the DSC personnel.

Img source: here

Image
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

The Russian component of Ak-203 were supplied. Its the factory setup that is lagging.
We had that news on these pages only.
Cyrano
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

One more for Rajnath Singh ji.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Sandeep Unnithan has started a video documentary series on Guns of India. The first two episodes are on the JVPC and ARDE CQB carbine. They are available on the TV9 plus app. The production quality of the documentary is top notch.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

https://www.news9live.com/india/why-the ... 05-2048897

The ARDE CQB carbine has passed MHAs trials. Story by Sandeep Unnithan.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thakur, I notice that 23-2 AA guns are being given to BSF for anti-drone operations.
Does OFB's successor company make the 23x 152 mm shell?
If they are imported then from whom and where does India get the shells?

Also, do they get spare barrels to replace?
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

ramana wrote:Thakur, I notice that 23-2 AA guns are being given to BSF for anti-drone operations.
Does OFB's successor company make the 23x 152 mm shell?
If they are imported then from whom and where does India get the shells?

Also, do they get spare barrels to replace?
Saar, OF Ambernath makes the cases
https://ddpdoo.gov.in/unit/pages/OFA/ca ... mm-schilka
https://www.yantraindia.co.in/ofa_home.php

But sadly even as of 2018 we were importing the Gun powder.
Image
From this pdf: https://makeinindiadefence.gov.in/admin ... zation.pdf
Could not find anything more recent about this.
Also nothing on the barrels.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thanks a lot for digging this up.
Yes powder is very crucial to give the proper burn rate.
Lots of magic and masala in it.
See those pellets that ensure the proper burn rate.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

MeshaVishwas can you find what fuzes are integrated for the 23mm shell?
Looks like the steel case, and powder (OFK-5 and OFK-6) are available.
These have to be integrated by the shell-filling facility.

After Ukraine War disruption all of this becomes important.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

BTW you are awesome in your search capability!!!
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

ramana wrote:MeshaVishwas can you find what fuzes are integrated for the 23mm shell?
Looks like the steel case, and powder (OFK-5 and OFK-6) are available.
These have to be integrated by the shell-filling facility.

After Ukraine War disruption all of this becomes important.
Thanks Saar,
Lineage of ToT for the Schilka ammunition is a Bulgarian company called Kintex
Fuze model number : MG-25
Image
Frome here: https://cag.gov.in/webroot/uploads/down ... 5_2010.pdf
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Perfect. Thanks
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

J-K police gets made-in-India corner-shot pistols among new weapons.

The Jammu and Kashmir police has for the first time inducted three state-of-the-art weapon systems, including the made-in-India 'Zen ShootEdge' corner shot pistol, to strengthen its arsenal as it counters various security and counter-terror challenges in the Union Territory.

Personnel of the force are undergoing training with the newly inducted Tavor X-95 and MP-5 rifles and the 'Zen ShootEdge' pistol, officials said, adding the corner shot pistol facilitates shooting around corners and over the top of walls without exposing the user.

"Recently, three new weapons were inducted into the force. The (police) force got these three weapons in which there is a corner shot weapon. There was a dearth of such weapons in the force," senior superintendent of police Kulbir Singh told PTI in Jammu.

He said it is necessary to modernise the force's arsenal to meet and combat greater security and counter-terrorism challenges. "It is always expected that we upgrade our weapons. It has taken place in the past too," Singh said. "With these weapons the efficiency and accuracy is very high and pinpoint. You can achieve your target within a few shots (in anti-terror operations)," the SSP said.

The corner shot weapon will protect members of anti-terror operation parties from coming in line of direct fire from terrorists in close-combat situations, which mostly take place in congested and populated areas of Kashmir, he said.

"When you have to go for a shot in a room (in a close-combat situation in anti-terror operations), you have to save yourself and neutralise or shoot (terrorist). There was a great need for this type of weapon," the officer said.

The officials said training on these weapon systems have started for the police personnel in some districts and weapons are being provided to the force in all districts and battalions. "Shortly, these weapons will be provided to all districts and battalions of the force," the SSP said.

The corner shot weapon system also helps to fire accurately in dark and low-light conditions and facilitates firing from standing, kneeling, hip as well as lying positions. It can be fitted with a pistol such as a Glock 17, Glock 19 or a 9mm Browning for close-combat or covert operations, the officials said. It is mounted with a high-resolution low-light infrared camera, infrared illumination, a red dot laser and a tactical torch.

The SSP said the efficiency of the Tavor X-95 weapon is very high.

"We have also got modified AK rifles. Their firepower has been enhanced and they have faster firing speed. They have pinpoint efficiency and will help and strengthen our forces," Singh added.

The Tavor X95, also called Micro-Tavor, MTAR, and MTAR-21, is an assault rifle, designed and produced by Israel Weapon Industries as part of the Tavor rifle family, along with the TAR-21 and the Tavor 7.

The MP5, which is manufactured by the German Heckler and Koch company, is one of the most widely used submachine guns in the world and having been adopted by over 40 nations.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Turns out that there was a second US Government program for small arms sponsored by Irregular Warfare Technical Support Division (IWTSD) for whom Fn Herstal developed a far more practical rifle than the NGSW program and SiG.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/202 ... on-system/



The rifle is pretty much Similar to NGSW SiG M7 rifle but the round it fires is derived from 6.5 Grendel but with steel cased cartridge.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

AK-203 rifles in manufacturing, testing stage: Govt on Korwa plant
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 607456.cms
13 March 2023
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »


Just a fun video in English of the AK-203.
Museum was really well done.
Edit: Just out of curiosity, explored his channel and found another video justifying the AK-203 as the INSAS replacement.
Felt a lot of cringe.
I wonder if this presenter was ex SthalSena?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Rakesh wrote:AK-203 rifles in manufacturing, testing stage: Govt on Korwa plant
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 607456.cms
13 March 2023
Now with the AK 203 production coming on line, time for the brass and government to dust off thick layers of dirt off many other replacement programs.

Second LMG order after Negev.
5.56x45 carbine procurement.
7.62x51 rifle procurement (still lacs to go as second batch of SiG 716 has not been ordered)
0.338 Lapua Magnum Sniper rifles (only about a quarter or third of requirement was ordered)
0.50 cal HMG
7.62x51 sniper rifles
Optics for rifles needed in Lacs.
Thermal Imaging sights, needed in several thousands.
Next procurement of bullet proof jackets as the SMPP deliveries would have completed by now or close to completion.
Next procurement of helmets.
NVGs, lots of NVGs.
Anti Material rifles (only about a quarter to third of required quantity ordered)
Mine resistant boots.
Backpacks (whatever happened to Wildcraft order)
SDRs, neck mics and Comtacs.
9mm pistols.

Top brass and MoD seem to be in deep slumber.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Thakur_B wrote: Second LMG order after Negev.
5.56x45 carbine procurement.
7.62x51 rifle procurement (still lacs to go as second batch of SiG 716 has not been ordered)
0.338 Lapua Magnum Sniper rifles (only about a quarter or third of requirement was ordered)
0.50 cal HMG
7.62x51 sniper rifles
Optics for rifles needed in Lacs.
Thermal Imaging sights, needed in several thousands.
Next procurement of bullet proof jackets as the SMPP deliveries would have completed by now or close to completion.
Next procurement of helmets.
NVGs, lots of NVGs.
Anti Material rifles (only about a quarter to third of required quantity ordered)
Mine resistant boots.
Backpacks (whatever happened to Wildcraft order)
SDRs, neck mics and Comtacs.
9mm pistols.
Top brass and MoD seem to be in deep slumber.
Pardon my ignorance

0.338 Lapua Magnum Sniper rifles (only about a quarter or third of requirement was ordered)
AND
7.62x51 sniper rifles
Why 2 different sniper rifles ? What's the difference ?


7.62x51 rifle procurement (still lacs to go as second batch of SiG 716 has not been ordered)
AND
AK 203
Why 2 different rifles ? What's the difference ?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Sniper rifles,

.338 is a longer ranged sniper weapon, with ranges upto 1600 meters.

7.62*51 sniper, is a comparatively shorter ranged weapon, with ranges upto 800 to 1000 meters.

Battle Rifles.

7.62*51 Sig716 effective range of upto 800 meters. For areas where longer ranged engagements is possible.

7.62.39, Ak203, effective range upto 500 meters. More controllable full auto fire. For areas where infantry engagement are going to be in 300 to 500 meter ranges.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by RoyG »

Pratyush wrote:Sniper rifles,

.338 is a longer ranged sniper weapon, with ranges upto 1600 meters.

7.62*51 sniper, is a comparatively shorter ranged weapon, with ranges upto 800 to 1000 meters.

Battle Rifles.

7.62*51 Sig716 effective range of upto 800 meters. For areas where longer ranged engagements is possible.

7.62.39, Ak203, effective range upto 500 meters. More controllable full auto fire. For areas where infantry engagement are going to be in 300 to 500 meter ranges.
For ak it's really 200 or less.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

An absolute cluster f…

Getting the right equipment in the hands of the jawans!!!
Aditya_V
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

But there is no silver bullet, in many cases where engagements are less than 200m soldiers need an AK type rifle, in Thar desert, LAC, Drass, Kargil batali's etc, where there is very little cover, soldiers need a rifle which can engage the enemy at long engagement ranges. The 5.56*45 is a compromise in any of these. We wasted time with multi barrel rifles etc.
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