Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 20 Aug 2020 12:45

ks_sachin wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Doesn't direct impingement lead to more heating and require more cleaning for fouling? Both cases are frequent in sustained combat.

For example, Jaffna University
tsarkar I am sure the IA has thought of that..

What happened WRT weapons malfunction in Jaffna university?

I have the same doubts but SIG recently told a blog(link up thread) that additional testing was done by the Army AFTER the first order was won. I really hope the DI choice does not prove costly in the heat of combat.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Aug 2020 13:06

Bhardwaj it is not that bad.
DI is using the gas to push the bolt back where in pistons the gas pushes the piston which pushes the bolt back. So exposure of the bolt directly to the gases as the rifle is cycling through will create more cleaning requirements. However if the SOPs are well laid out and followed then the issue cn be minimised. The US Army also uses a DI M16A4.
The AK has the issue of a loss of zero when upper receiver cover is opened and that has to be opened whenever cleaning is required.
The SCAR has a reciprocating bolt which I believe is a pain and injure users if they are not careful.

It is all about trade offs. I think that this is a good tradeoff.

WE have a better weapon which is more reliable and better built than the INSAS with better range and lethality owing to the 7.62X51 round.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Aug 2020 13:10

Guys another question - what UBGL will be used with the 716i?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Aug 2020 13:23

ks_sachin wrote:tsarkar I am sure the IA has thought of that..

I hope so. Reading the INSAS story on twitter made me realize the move to 5.56 was not based on field experience but a HQ decision based on theories of flatter trajectory and a desire to follow NATO.

ks_sachin wrote:What happened WRT weapons malfunction in Jaffna university?

No weapons malfunction there. I gave it as an example of a long firefight where the weapons performed admirably.

On the other hand the German G36 that was supposed to be the best rifle ever on the internet heated up in Afghanistan and at the least became inaccurate
https://www.dw.com/en/heckler-koch-g36- ... a-18402772

All it takes is two magazines (60 rounds of ammunition) to heat up the barrel to an extent that "serious accuracy degradation" occurs, the researchers found. At this point, the accuracy degradation can be as severe as 50 centimeters at a range of 200 meters, and a full 6 meters at a range of 500 meters.

BTW those who think criticizing poor performance own weaponry is terribly anti-national, this report is from Deutsche Welle (DW), that is German equivalent of All India Radio / Akashwani. It shows the level of Intellectual Honesty of mature citizens who make their nations mature.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Aug 2020 13:27

tsarkar ji - there is an interesting video on forgottenweapons re the g36.
It appears that the heating leading to accuracy degrading had many facets to the debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfPHZFsw40M

Appreciate your opinion.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Aug 2020 13:29

tsarkar wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:tsarkar I am sure the IA has thought of that..
I hope so. Reading the INSAS story on twitter made me realize the move to 5.56 was not based on field experience but a HQ decision based on theories of flatter trajectory and a desire to follow NATO.

Can we now state that decision to go 7.62 is based on field experience and practice and a desire to do our own thing?

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 20 Aug 2020 14:25

That insas story on twitter makes for a very disturbing read. One begins to understand the desperation that caused the eventual import.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 20 Aug 2020 14:57

tsarkar wrote:Doesn't direct impingement lead to more heating and require more cleaning for fouling? Both cases are frequent in sustained combat.

Tsarkar ji, The effects of gunk accumulating on the BCG(Bolt carrier group) due to its direct exposure to the gas is somewhat mitigated in the modern rifles by coating it with an alloy.
It can be chemical deposit of NiB(Nickel Boron) or Electrolytic deposit of nitrides. Both can reduce the effect of heating by efficiently dissipating heat and the major advantage is reduction in fouling by reducing the need to use oil in the system.
FYI the ARDE JVPC uses a coating of NiB nitride on not only the BCG but the whole lower.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Aug 2020 15:13

souravB wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Doesn't direct impingement lead to more heating and require more cleaning for fouling? Both cases are frequent in sustained combat.
Tsarkar ji, The effects of gunk accumulating on the BCG due to its direct exposure to the gas is somewhat mitigated in the modern rifles by coating it with an alloy.
It can be chemical deposit of NiB or PVD of nitrides. Both can reduce the effect of heating by efficiently dissipating heat and the major advantage is reduction in fouling by reducing the need to use oil in the system.
FYI the ARDE JVPC uses a coating of NiB nitride on not only the BCG but the whole lower.

SouravB please be to use no acronym for Sam janta who is not necessarily into small arms.

Was JVPC tested with other calibres?

Have U seen the butt of the 761i.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 20 Aug 2020 15:48

ks_sachin wrote:
Was JVPC tested with other calibres?

AFAIK no. But one thing I realized while watching the Sandeep Unnithan video of JVPC a few days back, the BEL sight on it is along the right direction. They integrated a laser into the sight.
For the next iterations, I'd like them to make it a bit bigger, put a telescopic sight, use the laser as Laser range finder with a ballistic computer and you have a solution for the jawans in the sangar to lay accurate MMG fire towards the Paki sangars.

Have U seen the butt of the 761i.

seems a generic magpul telescopic furniture.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 Aug 2020 16:11

tsarkar wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:After all this do we really need the AK203 production line?
No. No one pays royalty for AK design. Even USD 200. I would rather go with Munger made AK's that are quite reliable. The makers are all ex IA/OFB fitters.

Both Trichy and SSS AK designs use milled receivers. Doesn't it affect cost of acquisition and cost of part replacement?

ParGha and ThakurB can you share your assessment of the SSS weapons?

Their enhancement/upgrade kits are popular with field commanders who buy using their discretionary budget and I think that's what keeps generating revenue for them.

The RECR platform is promising but is exactly where MCIWS was. Using a common chassis for all variants is a risky but smart move, if you look at the bigger picture.

They have gone back to long stroke piston from short stroke and probably sacrificed free floating barrel for their new AK203 alternative.

The advantage of Ak100 (other than 107, 108, 109 balanced recoil weapons) family was use of 80% common components for all rifles, i.e., dust cover, gas tubes, piston rods, springs, stock, furniture and trigger assembly. The only components that change are barrel, bolt and receiver. Advantageous when building multiple types from same family, useless for others.

BTW SSS defence has been an OFB subcomponents supplier for decades. So this is not their first tryst with small arms.

Now it is painfully obvious to almost all major militaries that 7.62 NATO fits the bill for most effective cartridge right now, but places logistical constraints. 7.62x39 is the right size but horrible accuracy beyond 200 meters. 6.8 SPC hits the sweet spot for rifles and LMGs and 6.5 grendel for carbines. 6.5 creedmoor is incredibly accurate with competition shooters calling it boring to shoot even for targets beyond 1000 yards.

If I was IA, I'd ask ARDE to develop MCIWS/AAR in 7.62 NATO, then throw open the design to all small arms makers to determine who can come up with the most reliable and cost effective implementation in 4 out the 6 cartridge types with minimum passing marks for reliability in the other 2:

7.62x51 NATO
6.80x43 Remington SPC
6.50x48 Creedmoor
6.50x39 Grendel
7.62x39
5.56x45

The only changes to be permitted between configuration would be bolt, barrel and lower receiver.

AK family (available in 5.45x39, 5.56x45, 7.62x39, 7.62x51), AR-15 family (available in all kinds of fancy ammunition) and SCAR family (5.56x45, 7.62x51, 6.8x43) have shown it is possible to manage multiple calibers with high commonality of parts. It's time IA does an ATAGS of small arms.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Aug 2020 17:05

Do you really need all those versions honestly? Assume CAPF/state police forces will be happy with the 5.56x45, why not standardise the Army versions with one single caliber for assault rifles and carbines and pick one for the LMG if the same doesn't work out?

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 20 Aug 2020 19:31

Thakur_B wrote:If I was IA, I'd ask ARDE to develop MCIWS/AAR in 7.62 NATO, then throw open the design to all small arms makers to determine who can come up with the most reliable and cost effective implementation...

Splitting design and build to two different entities is a terrible idea. It will only lead to endless finger-pointing and shirking of responsibility when things go wrong, instead of a single entity working as a united team to fix and deliver results. Even in best-case scenarios, there is no learning loop (insights from manufacturing floor going back to the engineers, and better designs coming down to the manufacturing). It is better to contract for design-build-and-deliver.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 21 Aug 2020 05:16

ParGha wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:If I was IA, I'd ask ARDE to develop MCIWS/AAR in 7.62 NATO, then throw open the design to all small arms makers to determine who can come up with the most reliable and cost effective implementation...
Splitting design and build to two different entities is a terrible idea. It will only lead to endless finger-pointing and shirking of responsibility when things go wrong, instead of a single entity working as a united team to fix and deliver results. Even in best-case scenarios, there is no learning loop (insights from manufacturing floor going back to the engineers, and better designs coming down to the manufacturing). It is better to contract for design-build-and-deliver.

100%

The loop did not work with INSAS.

USER - MANUFACTURER - DESIGNER

Designer - washed their hands off after initial design

Manufactured - Did not manufacture to standards (perhaps or fu--uped)

User - Did not take more ownership of the product and drive change and improvement aggressively...

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Aug 2020 19:43

Punj lloyd is offering Galil ACE family of rifles and Masada pistol to the indian armed forces.
ACE52 with standard STANAG compatible magazine (making interchange of magazines easier with SiG 716)
ACE31 in 7.62x39 (uses standard AK magazine)
ACE21N in 5.56x45 (uses stanag magazine)

IWI Masada is a striker fired pistol very similar to Glock.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 31 Aug 2020 07:44

Looks like IA is xperimenting with a new multi cam pattern camouflage and new combat uniform pattern.
C1 getup - existing camouflage and dress pattern.
C2 getup - existing camouflage and new dress pattern.
C3 getup - new camouflage and existing dress pattern.
C4 getup - new camouflage and new dress pattern.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 01 Sep 2020 00:41

India and Russia set to close deal for over 6 lakh AK 203 rifles, production to start soon.

The long-pending AK 203 rifles deal with Russia, under Make in India, has been finalised and a final contract is being legally vetted by both sides before the signing process, ThePrint has learnt.

Sources in the defence and security establishment said the production of the over 6 lakh rifles would begin by the end of this year, and that they have export potential as well.

Under the deal, the first 20,000 AK 203 rifles, which will be the mainstay of the armed forces for years to come, will be imported from Russia at a cost of about $1,100 Cr (or Rs 80,000) a piece depending on the conversion rate.

The rest of the guns are to be manufactured in India as part of a joint venture — Indo-Russia Rifles Private Limited — established between the Indian Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), Kalashnikov Concern, and Rosoboronexport, the Russian state agency for military exports. While OFB has a 50.5 per cent stake in the joint venture, Kalashnikov has 42 per cent and Rosoboronexport 7.5 per cent.

The cost of these Make in India rifles would be a “little less” than what the imported ones will cost, the sources said, refusing to get into specifics.

The deal was first announced in 2018 amid tremendous excitement, but hit a roadblock over price negotiations, with the OFB quoting a higher price than the Russian product because of the extra man hours it would take and other issues. The defence ministry had even constituted a committee to break this logjam.

The delay had forced the Army to order SiG 716 rifles from the US under a fast-tracked process to arm its frontline troops. With 72,000 SiG rifles already delivered, the Army is now pursuing emergency procurement of another 72,000.

“The contract for AK 203 is undergoing legal vetting and would be inked very soon,” a source said.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Sep 2020 04:52

I would expect a Third tranche of Sig Sauer

mody · Post by **mody** » 01 Sep 2020 15:35

20,000 AK 203 to be imported for $1,100 each. That's more than the Sig 716i!!
The locally manufactured units will be cheaper, but not specified by how much. This still seems too expensive for a AK.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 01 Sep 2020 21:24

Vips wrote:
The cost of these Make in India rifles would be a “little less” than what the imported ones will cost, the sources said, refusing to get into specifics.

The deal was first announced in 2018 amid tremendous excitement, but hit a roadblock over price negotiations, with the OFB quoting a higher price than the Russian product because of the extra man hours it would take and other issues. The defence ministry had even constituted a committee to break this logjam.

Vips, how can it be less than the imported ones when OFB quoted a higher price ? Does it mean OFB was able to come down by increasing productivity ? Or was the "imported" price some other benchmark instead ?

The delay had forced the Army to order SiG 716 rifles from the US under a fast-tracked process to arm its frontline troops. With 72,000 SiG rifles already delivered, the Army is now pursuing emergency procurement of another 72,000.

This "delay forced" part seems BS - the army wanted a 7.62x51 caliber rifle and got it a an emergency procurement. If they wanted the same product, then you can talk bout delay, or explore alternatives like using emergency procurement for Ak-203 built in Russia etc instead of Sig

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 02 Sep 2020 06:27

Barath wrote: Vips, how can it be less than the imported ones when OFB quoted a higher price ? Does it mean OFB was able to come down by increasing productivity ? Or was the "imported" price some other benchmark instead ?

No idea. We do not know what was the original price being asked for the rifles by the Russians. I think we have buckled under the pressure of Russians and are paying a much higher upfront price for the initial imported AK 203 so as to enable and show a subsequent lower one for the locally manufactured (assembled rifles) in India.

IIRC, the Russians were asking for a high royalty and were not ready to allow indeginization beyond 50% of the rifle when the OFB wanted it at 80%. Seems the Russians have extracted more then their pound of flesh to arrive at a compromise (if at all).

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 02 Sep 2020 06:37

Per an AV the features touted for the Indian AK 203 are:

-Collapsible stock that can be adjusted according to the soldier

-Safety mechanism to help the soldier not to loose contact with the grip when changing firing modes during an operation

-A new flash hider which will allow avoid hampering of visibility when the rifle is sued with Night Vision
-It will come with a new type of barell
-Interchangeable magazine with the standard 30 rounds and also of 50 rounds.
-Will also be able to use the magazines used in the AK47 rifles

morem · Post by **morem** » 02 Sep 2020 09:02

the collapsible stock is not a feature for indian version of AK203

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Sep 2020 06:32

morem wrote:the collapsible stock is not a feature for indian version of AK203

Yes the version displayed during Defexpo had the regular fixed stock. Not sure if it was because of cost reasons or the IA wanted to give the OFB one less thing to screw up during production.

Another curious thing was that our version skipped the new easy-to-use fire selector switch on the AK-203 and stuck with the old AK style switch on the right.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Sep 2020 06:59

nachiket wrote:
morem wrote:the collapsible stock is not a feature for indian version of AK203
Yes the version displayed during Defexpo had the regular fixed stock. Not sure if it was because of cost reasons or the IA wanted to give the OFB one less thing to screw up during production.

Another curious thing was that our version skipped the new easy-to-use fire selector switch on the AK-203 and stuck with the old AK style switch on the right.

It will be hilarious to see new build AK203s after induction with SSS Defence AK mods. This is happening now with our older AKs many of which sport all manner of interesting things.

morem · Post by **morem** » 03 Sep 2020 08:28

nachiket wrote:
morem wrote:the collapsible stock is not a feature for indian version of AK203
Yes the version displayed during Defexpo had the regular fixed stock. Not sure if it was because of cost reasons or the IA wanted to give the OFB one less thing to screw up during production.

Another curious thing was that our version skipped the new easy-to-use fire selector switch on the AK-203 and stuck with the old AK style switch on the right.

Agree, the collapsible stock i get could be more expensive but the fire selector enhancement is literally a small curved metal tab on the selector. Not sure how much they saved on that

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Sep 2020 08:33

morem wrote:
nachiket wrote: Yes the version displayed during Defexpo had the regular fixed stock. Not sure if it was because of cost reasons or the IA wanted to give the OFB one less thing to screw up during production.

Another curious thing was that our version skipped the new easy-to-use fire selector switch on the AK-203 and stuck with the old AK style switch on the right.
Agree, the collapsible stock i get could be more expensive but the fire selector enhancement is literally a small curved metal tab on the selector. Not sure how much they saved on that

May be the OFB was not in a capacity to manufacture a cured metal tab!!!

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 04 Sep 2020 11:54

mody wrote:20,000 AK 203 to be imported for $1,100 each. That's more than the Sig 716i!!
The locally manufactured units will be cheaper, but not specified by how much. This still seems too expensive for a AK.

Hi, mody! They said yesterday it is "including the costs of technology transfer and creation of a production unit". So may be not so high price after all.

mody · Post by **mody** » 04 Sep 2020 15:25

Igorr wrote:
mody wrote:20,000 AK 203 to be imported for $1,100 each. That's more than the Sig 716i!!
The locally manufactured units will be cheaper, but not specified by how much. This still seems too expensive for a AK.
Hi, mody! They said yesterday it is "including the costs of technology transfer and creation of a production unit". So may be not so high price after all.

Igorr good to see you after a long time on the forum.
The Transfer of Technology bit is basically licensing fees that Russia will be charging. Creating production unit, should not cost that much, especially if the cost is to be amortized over more than 6,00,000 units. The price will also ensure that no AK-203 produced at this plant, can ever be exported to any third country, as the cost will be higher than that offered by Russia for the same or similar product and also by most other manufacturers, that offer a similar competing product.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 04 Sep 2020 15:37

mody wrote: Igorr good to see you after a long time on the forum.
The Transfer of Technology bit is basically licensing fees that Russia will be charging. Creating production unit, should not cost that much, especially if the cost is to be amortized over more than 6,00,000 units. The price will also ensure that no AK-203 produced at this plant, can ever be exported to any third country, as the cost will be higher than that offered by Russia for the same or similar product and also by most other manufacturers, that offer a similar competing product.

I glad to see the old friends here too.

You are right, creating production unit should not cost that much/ But if accounted it including the transfer of technology and some needed equipment for production itself in India, even all $22,000,000 is a ridiculous sum.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Sep 2020 19:38

Igorr wrote:
mody wrote:20,000 AK 203 to be imported for $1,100 each. That's more than the Sig 716i!!
The locally manufactured units will be cheaper, but not specified by how much. This still seems too expensive for a AK.
Hi, mody! They said yesterday it is "including the costs of technology transfer and creation of a production unit". So may be not so high price after all.

Why are they pricing the sunk costs like factory and tot into every rifle for a govt enterprise? Is this to jack up costs so future exports are pricy?
The Production factory unit costs are being passed to every rifle.

How much is a Sig Sauer rifle priced at?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Sep 2020 19:53

The 72,400 rifles came at INR 700 Cr that works out to INR 96,685 per rifle or USD 1316.87 at today's spot rate of 73.42

A user I spoke to is delighted despite the price as ergonomics are excellent and firepower packs a punch. They say its the Rafale of the Infantry despite the cost.

Apparently it sells in the US at USD 1500 (BR members there can confirm).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Sep 2020 20:02

Igorr wrote:
mody wrote:20,000 AK 203 to be imported for $1,100 each. That's more than the Sig 716i!!
The locally manufactured units will be cheaper, but not specified by how much. This still seems too expensive for a AK.
Hi, mody! They said yesterday it is "including the costs of technology transfer and creation of a production unit". So may be not so high price after all.

Welcome back. Hope all is well.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Sep 2020 20:13

tsarkar wrote:The 72,400 rifles came at INR 700 Cr that works out to INR 96,685 per rifle or USD 1316.87 at today's spot rate of 73.42

A user I spoke to is delighted despite the price as ergonomics are excellent and firepower packs a punch. They say its the Rafale of the Infantry despite the cost.

Apparently it sells in the US at USD 1500 (BR members there can confirm).

So for $200 more, we get a more capable rifle.
Maybe should have let Sig Sauer set up the plant in India as wholly-owned subsidiary and the hell with the 7.62mmx39 genre.
It was chosen as INDAS 5.56 was not good enough for the jihadis armed with the same 7.62mmx39.
I blame the OFB and Forces for this fiasco.

OFB for incometence and forces for commitiing to this caliber as if its some Indra's Vajra.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 09 Sep 2020 22:51

If the current pace of negotiations and delevery schedules continue for AK203, IA will put in one more emergency order Sig Saure for 72K taking the count to 216K and all frontline troops from Kashmir to AP would be equipped with Sig's and the Western side can be covered by AK203's.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 10 Sep 2020 00:04

tsarkar wrote:The 72,400 rifles came at INR 700 Cr that works out to INR 96,685 per rifle or USD 1316.87 at today's spot rate of 73.42

A user I spoke to is delighted despite the price as ergonomics are excellent and firepower packs a punch. They say its the Rafale of the Infantry despite the cost.

Apparently it sells in the US at USD 1500 (BR members there can confirm).

The thing is the firepower packing a punch part was known since the time of 1A1 SLR. The shift to 5.56 was due to other perceived advantages. We always knew the stopping power was going to be much lower.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2020 01:14

I wish those who made that 5.56mm decision are asked or named for posterity.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2020 01:17

VinodTK wrote:If the current pace of negotiations and delevery schedules continue for AK203, IA will put in one more emergency order Sig Saure for 72K taking the count to 216K and all frontline troops from Kashmir to AP would be equipped with Sig's and the Western side can be covered by AK203's.

I hope a third tranche of Sig Sauer Rifles is ordered so all frontline troops plus extra are covered.

Many terrorists are getting shot with enough standoff. That's what the Sig Sauer brought to the field.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 01:30

tsarkar wrote:The 72,400 rifles came at INR 700 Cr that works out to INR 96,685 per rifle or USD 1316.87 at today's spot rate of 73.42

A user I spoke to is delighted despite the price as ergonomics are excellent and firepower packs a punch. They say its the Rafale of the Infantry despite the cost.

Apparently it sells in the US at USD 1500 (BR members there can confirm).

$1300-1500 USD is a lot of money for an automatic or semi-automatic rifle. They should be well under $1000 USD in large numbers as India is getting them.

The AK-203 is an improvement over the AK-103, but is harder to find in the US. In the US, the newer AK series is not as common, but still available. By common I mean, if I walked into a shop today, I may not be able to find the AK-103 readily, but could order it, and the equivalent Sig Saur or an American semi-automatic is on the shelf.

The KR-103, the US equivalent to the AK-103 is available in the US by order for under $1100 USD.
https://kalashnikov-usa.com/firearms/kr-103-rifle/
https://atlanticfirearms.com/products/k ... hnikov-usa

In the US, sporting goods shops will sell a nice Sig Sauer equivalent to the AK-12 or AK-203 for $1500 USD. Due to COVID-19, these shops will do curbside delivery to your car. US law prohibits the internet sale of small arms, but you can have it shipped to a local dealer by express courier.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 10 Sep 2020 02:03

tsarkar wrote:The 72,400 rifles came at INR 700 Cr that works out to INR 96,685 per rifle or USD 1316.87 at today's spot rate of 73.42

A user I spoke to is delighted despite the price as ergonomics are excellent and firepower packs a punch. They say its the Rafale of the Infantry despite the cost.

Apparently it sells in the US at USD 1500 (BR members there can confirm).

Optics included in deal ? Or we need to order separate ?

I saw few pictures on twitter - IA carrying it without optics.. Its like a Fighter without BVR.