Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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Aditya_V
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

jamwal wrote:

Take a look at LoC terrain, it mostly hilly and mountainous. Troops deployed on border usually need high accuracy over long distances.
This was obvious from Kargil days, only thing is extra weight of 7.62*51mm ammo vs 5.56*45 ammo.
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Thakur_B wrote:The northern command had a few months back floated rfp for procurement of ammunition from private sector. SSS defence has tied up with Brazilian ammunition maker for setting up ammunition manufacturing line in India.

Change is on the way at a glacial pace.
May the pace quicken fast real soon, well before our forces are made to face the crunch moment - and that may be not many years away..
Pratyush wrote:The issue with ammunition has to be solved within India. Because in the event of a conflict we cannot be going to partner nations hat in had
Absolutely. I can understand us shopping abroad for the latest tech in products like Aircrafts/Subs but bullets, BP vests ?!?

BTW a very silly question - are bullets on the no-imports list which is going to go into effect shortly?
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Anshuman.Kumar wrote:So High Recoil is because of ammunition and not because of the rifle for Sig 716,but for OFB version of 7.62*51 assault rifle..the recoil was due to the weapon itself and hence not worth even considering.
But the okayish 5.56*45 mm ammo of OFB is good for repeat orders by US
It's pretty obvious where actually the problem lies..and it's certainly not the OFB
Please educate yourself a bit.
VinodTK
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

News on Sig 716 starting @3:23



Indian Defence Updates : Project-75I RFP Issued,Su-75 vs Rafale MRFA,Modified SiG-716,AWACS By TVS
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

^ Armour piercing?

As in penetration of lightly armoured personnel carriers?

Useful bit of kit.
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Manish_P wrote:^ Armour piercing?

As in penetration of lightly armoured personnel carriers?

Useful bit of kit.
The shrapnel from the blast penetrates.

The grenade does not. A UBGL will not have that kind of velocity unless perhaps you are very close to the vehicle target
Pratyush
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Does the grenade have a shaped charge?

If yes, then it's armoured piercing.
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

The cross section shown didn't look like the traditional shaped charge, hence my query.

As the other poster has said, it is probably the high explosive which makes the fragments pierce armour (of thin skinned personnel carriers, light tanks :wink: ), provided the explosion is close enough
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

It would be tough to penetrate anything rated for .50 cal ammunition protection with 40 mm grenade. It doesn't have the velocity and the charge is too small.
jamwal
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

I suppose they meant armour of soldiers, not vehicles.
Anshuman.Kumar
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Anshuman.Kumar »

ks_sachin wrote:
Anshuman.Kumar wrote:So High Recoil is because of ammunition and not because of the rifle for Sig 716,but for OFB version of 7.62*51 assault rifle..the recoil was due to the weapon itself and hence not worth even considering.
But the okayish 5.56*45 mm ammo of OFB is good for repeat orders by US
It's pretty obvious where actually the problem lies..and it's certainly not the OFB
Please educate yourself a bit.

Hilarious..... :D
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Pratyush wrote:Does the grenade have a shaped charge?

If yes, then it's armoured piercing.

You got it. It comes in four variants
Link: https://pib.gov.in/Pressreleaseshare.aspx?PRID=1645370
There are four varieties of this ammunition:-

a) 40 mm UBGL (Practice)

b) 40 mm UBGL (HEAP)

c) 40 mm UBGL (HEDP

d) 40 mm UBGL (RP)
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

So Ramana you are saying that the HEAP round will actually penetrate a vehicle before exploding?
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

HEDP one
HEAP the jet penetrates.
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Nice.

Fingers crossed for the quick local solution of the 7.62 x 51 mm bullets for the Sig 716 issue.
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Manish_P wrote:Nice.

Fingers crossed for the quick local solution of the 7.62 x 51 mm bullets for the Sig 716 issue.
Saar,

You will sprain your fingers waiting.

Yeh hai hamara MoD.

MoD mane to Ministry of Dereliction.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Manish_P,

7.62x51 is made by OFB.
https://www.ofb.gov.in/product/products ... 62-mm-ball
It is the old SLR bullet.
Its made in five categories.
In fact, that was a point for choosing the calibre.
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Yes, Ramana ji. Was aware of that.

Was referring to the recent concerns, of non suitability (reason said to be quality issues) for the Sig 716, which led to (or is it might lead to) importing of this ammo from abroad.

IMHO if the root cause is indeed quality issue, then it is surely a in-house solvable problem. Tighter manufacturing tolerances and stricter QC at OFB and also giving a percentage of orders to the private sector would alleviate the problem to a large extent or indeed even eliminate it entirely.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

What recent concern? Its from Print a usual naysayer.
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Oh damn . I didn't see the source :oops: Serves me right.
mody
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Please point out any reports of complaints about OFB 7.62x51 ammo over the years. These rounds have been manufactured for a long time by OFB for the Ishapore SLR rifles and the LMGs. They are currently being used extensively for the LMGs. I have never seen any report that categorically says that the OFB 7.62x51 mm ammo is bad or that it has a lot of quality issues.
It was only the article referred to on the last page that alluded that the high recoil of the Sig rifles was maybe due to the local 7.62x51 ammo. This too the author tried to conclude by pointing out that the same ammo is used for our LMGs also and hence might be more powerful then imported rounds of same caliber. This is pure stupidity. The same round was also used with the FN-FAL SLR rifles, along with the LMGs and recoil issue was always there for these round.
Also note that the recoil is unacceptably high when used in full auto mode and not in single round fire. We never developed the full auto mode for the SLRs and most NATO countries using the same rifles also rarely used the full auto mode.
Back when INSAS was being developed one of the reasons sited for opting for the 5.56x45 mm rounds was the high recoil of the 7.62x51mm rounds.
Nothing has changed on that front and I would love to see the internal test reports of IA, before they opted to go back to the 7.62x51mm rounds.
Any tests of the Sig-71 in full auto mode would have shown the high recoil of the rifles, whether used with imported ammo or OFB produced one.

I would still prefer to see the Excalibur being adopted for the eastern front against China, as the weight penalty of the larger rounds can be avoided and the Excalibur actually is more accurate over medium ranges as compared to the AK-series. However penetration of the rounds against bullet proof jackets might be important. The little Chinese emperor's are expected to have BPJs, unlike the uniformed and un-uniformed pigs on the western front.
Pratyush
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The 7.62 is well understood to be a munition with very high recoil. The Indian army having used the SLR will be well aware of this fact.

Having said all that. I have not been able to find out if the weapon has a fully automatic fire capacity. Because if it does and the Indian army goes on to fit it with bipods. Along with optical sights already available.

The firepower of the infantry units will be taken to a whole new level of lethality.

It will be a genuine change in the way the Indian army does business.

Can anyone confirm if the fire selector switch has full auto position or not.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

It has.
SIG Sauer could not yet comment on the exact configuration of the Indian 716i but noted that while they are very similar to the commercial 716i Tread they are capable of fully automatic fire and have an additional 6 o’clock Picatinny rail on the handguard to meet Indian requirements. An MLOK bayonet mount is also rumoured to have been procured for the rifles, although not seen in any of the images released by the Indian Army.
Manish_P the recoil story is a mix-up.
The normal IA soldier is used to INSAS (5.56) and the AK-47(7.62x39) which both have less recoil due to smaller cartridges than the Sig Sauer (7.62x51).
That is what the source told and it got written as you read.
Sig Sauer has more recoil than those two.
Rest is understood. No need for imported sights etc
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Yes, sir. The moment I realised the source was 'the print', the objective behind the article became clearer :)
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Speaking of sights

Tonbo Imaging Arjun Sight with NSG on SiG552

Image
Image

Tata Electronics Rajak on Sig 716
Image
Image
Image
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Cz Bren 807 with Andhra Police Octopus commandoes.

Image
Image

CMT is the indian partner for import of Cz Bren. They also have a tie up for local manufacturing of Glock pistols.
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Thakur_B wrote:Cz Bren 807 with Andhra Police Octopus
Had no idea the CZ Bren was imported. Is this the Mk2 version?

On a lighter note - hope our different state Police forces don't get into competition for importing of different brands from different countries :)
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

I dont care if what they get kills the enemy dead.

Thakur, Thanks for the sights pictures.
Any idea who makes the bipod attachment for the Sig-Sauer in India? Or world?
Pratyush
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2019/02 ... t.html?m=1

The RFI for 56000 night sights has be issued by the Indian Army. But I have not been able to find out if this is complete.

Of these 40000 are image intensifier type and the remainder are light weight thermal types.

Tonbo has both types on offer.

WRT, Bipods I have learnt that they use picatiny rail mount for it. Harris was the best known entity producing Bipods for picatiny rail in the past.

https://www.harrisbipods.com/. US army used them for M 16 during the war on terror.

But having said that, making Bipods in India for the rifle in India should not really be a major challange. As the INSAS and LMG both have Bipods and we have been making them for decades. Ought to be relatively simple to adapt them for picatiny rail mount. But who is the subcontractor for this purpose. I haven't found out. :((
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Will the INSAS Bipod fit these Sig Sauer 716i?
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Why would one want to do that Ramana ji? Pic rail bipods are a dime a dozen. Even OFB makes one for their 7.62x51 sniper.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

Trichy Carbine TriCa

Image

OFB made scope developed by OLF Dehradun on SiG 716
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thakur_B wrote:Why would one want to do that Ramana ji? Pic rail bipods are a dime a dozen. Even OFB makes one for their 7.62x51 sniper.
Perfect.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKZHRYDj3Qy/
https://www.cmtpl.com/

CMT appears to have a tie up with CZ to manufacture their products in India. They have listed Cz scorpion and CZ Bren on their website in products list. Another IWI-PLR in the making?
Thakur_B wrote:
Updated list
1. OFB
Insas Mk1C 5.56x45
Excalibur Mk1 5.46x45
Ishapore Carbine 5.56x45
Ghatak 7.62x39
TAR 7.62x39
TAR carbine 7.62x39
R2 7.62x51
Unnamed ARDE OFB carbine 5.56x45
Modified FnMag under development with ARDE 7.62x51
Sniper 7.62x51.Mk1
Sniper 8.6 x 70 mm (most likely ToT from IWI)
Ak203 (through IRRPL)
JVPC 5.56x30
Browning .50 cal HMG
Vidhwansak 14.5./ 12.7 / 20 mm

2. PLR Systems
Galil ACE 52N 7.62x51
Galil ACE 32 7.62x39
Galil ACE 21/22N 5.56x45
ARAD 5.56x45
Carmel 5.56x45
Galatz DMR 7.62x51
Negev LMG 7.62x51
Negev LMG 5.56x45
Tavor 21 5.56x45
Tavor 7 7.62x51
X95 5.56x45 / 9x19
Jericho Pistols 9x19
Masada Pistols 9x19
Uzi smg 9x19
Micro Uzi 9x19

3. Kalyani /Bharat Forge small arms
ARMF1 (Arsenal) 7.62x39
F90 (Thales) 5.56x45
MG (Arsenal) belt fed lmg 7.62x51
ORSIS F17 sniper 7.62x51 / 8.6x70

4. MKU
Caracal 817 7.62x51
Caracal 816 5.56x45
Thales F90 5.56x45

5. BEL (lol :rotfl: )
ARX 160 5.56x45 / 7.62x39

6. SSS Defence
P72 7.62x51
P72 7.62x39
P72 5.56x45
Viper sniper 7.62x51
Saber sniper 8.6x70

7. Reliance Defence
K2C carbine (ST Motiv Korea) 5.56×45

8. Jindal Group (in partnership with Brazilian Taurus Group)
TS9 pistol 9x19 parabellum
T4 Carbine (M4 clone) 5.56x45

9. CMT Pvt. Ltd. In partnership with Glock and CZ
CZ Bren 2 BR (7.62x51)
CZ Bren 2 (7.62x39, 5.56x45 in various barrel length)
Vips
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Trica presentation video PSU ishtyle!!!!



How come there was a big flash on the firing of second bullet and none on the other ones? This gun is supposed to be equipped with a muzzle/flash suppressant.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ It's just the flash coincided with camera frame.

----

Image

LVPO makes an appearance on SiG716i

----
Image

OFT is offering Russian OSV 96 AMR.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Summary: Average rifle, not good, not bad. Little under gassed, magazine is fragile, UBGL is a loose fit, stoppages are an issue. Accurate, easy to handle, small learning curve.
Edit: burst mode is also problematic.
Last edited by Thakur_B on 05 Aug 2021 09:51, edited 1 time in total.
Karan M
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

I wonder how many of those stoppages are due to OFBs rounds as versus issues caused by the rifle itself.

Overall with a bit of TLC and a design review /production fix by someone like H&K, this gun can serve for many more years with non front line troops.
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Karan M wrote:I wonder how many of those stoppages are due to OFBs rounds as versus issues caused by the rifle itself.

Overall with a bit of TLC and a design review /production fix by someone like H&K, this gun can serve for many more years with non front line troops.
Sirji the IC was an evolution and I think was a qualitative improvement on this. As you can see in this image this particular piece is stamped versus the 1C that has a machined receiver....

The 1c also addressed some problems that were identified in the previous versions..

We just threw out the baby with the bath water.....
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