Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 18 Sep 2020 02:26

srin wrote:I didn't get the spec for AK 203, so I'm using AK 103 specs.

Brochure comparison tells me that AK is only slightly longer than the Caracal with stock fully extended (37" vs 36.3"). I didn't get the stock retracted length (only the folded length on wiki) for the AK (27") whereas for Caracal, I got only the stock retracted length ("33").

Neither are bullpups, so what makes Caracal superior to AK for CQB ?

CAR816 A2 11.5" SBR Specs:
Caliber: 5.56 x 45mm NATO
Operating principle: Gas Operated, Piston
Modes of fire: Safe and Semi, or optional Select Fire
Overall Length (stock extended): 31.5″ (800mm)
Overall Length (stock collapsed): 28.2″ (716mm)
Barrel Length: 11.5″ (406mm)
Barrel Contour: Modified M4
Barrel Material: 4150 CMV, QPQ Black Nitride
Rifling Twist: 1:7” (1:178mm)

For AK203
Barrel Length: 415mm
Length:
940mm (stock extended)
880mm (stock retracted)
705mm (stock folded)

A Carbine is not just advantageous for shorter barrel length but also another big goal is low recoil. In close combat, many shots are fired from the hip, and with a high recoil AK type rifle it creates poor shot grouping. If you have ever shot a 5.56NATO round you would realize how low recoil that round has compared to a 7.62NATO, in fact a carbine with 5.56NATO will have a recoil / jerk is lower than a 45ACP/50cal round from a pistol.

Carbines are a good weapon to have when you could have a mix of urban/close proximity as well as mid-ranged shots (<200m) - for example if IA is going through an enemy town/village etc. Rifles are good for regions like Ladakh/Thar etc where chances of urban warfare is remote. Machine pistols are great if the only situation is close combat warfare like the scenarios faced by NSGs.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Sep 2020 05:49

ramana wrote:Glad you said that.

I commpared the energy.
A lot of difference.

OK 5.56x45 for carbine is right decision.

So I guess it will be prinicipal side arm for the second line troops.

I personally think energy isnt the right metric to measure. Momentum is. Momentum of the bullet defines stopping power/killing power/incapacitating power.

Converting the energy to momentum is important. A round with high energy going clean through isnt useful.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Sep 2020 05:52

putnanja wrote:Looks like the AD guns contract has been cancelled too ...

Carbines, Anti Air Systems for Indian Army to be made in India after MoD cancels import

In a special meeting held on Tuesday, chaired by the Defence Secretary, it has been decided that plans to procure close quarter carbines from a UAE based company and a program to import Self Propelled Air Defence systems from South Korea are being scrapped.
...

The Russians had protested the AD Gun Purchase. Shows their influence in our procurement system.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Sep 2020 05:57

Question to firearm enthusiasts, especially in US.

How close groupings have they been able to achieve in burst mode and full auto mode. Whether 7.62x51 or 5.56x45

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Sep 2020 06:11

Dont we have such carbine fro OFB the Amough carbine?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 18 Sep 2020 09:36

Yagnasri wrote:Dont we have such carbine fro OFB the Amough carbine?

Haha

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 18 Sep 2020 10:47

Yagnasri wrote:Dont we have such carbine fro OFB the Amough carbine?

New carbine by ARDE displayed in Defexpo.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7736&start=160#p2411753

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Sep 2020 23:21

A very good video explaining the issues with Drum magazines and why various countries which adopted drums on different firearms later on switched back to box mags.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 19 Sep 2020 08:10

srin wrote:I didn't get the spec for AK 203, so I'm using AK 103 specs.

It is 880-940 and 705 (folded ) mm for AK-203 https://modernfirearms.net/ru/avtomaty- ... ki/ak-200/ . If they really want the CC variant, they would have chosen AK 204 with 775-835
590 mm respectively. If caracal deal really dead, the last can be realized as well I think.

As about the new variants of 5.56x45 mm cartridge with more penetrating capability, the lack of fragmenting ability ruins the initial idea for a big stop power with low impulse.

To note: the old AK-47 storage can be upgraded up to (almost) AK-203 level with a special kit.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Sep 2020 05:00

Carcal is dead and no Lazarus.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Sep 2020 05:09

ramana wrote:Carcal is dead and no Lazarus.

Sir fantastic.
When will Hermes deliver the message to Middle kingdom?

No Christian equivalent so bringing in the Greeks

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Sep 2020 05:11

ThakurB now that we have the Sig has a comparison been done on the recoil between that and the Insas 7.62x51?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 Sep 2020 06:25

ks_sachin wrote:ThakurB now that we have the Sig has a comparison been done on the recoil between that and the Insas 7.62x51?

There was a clip of of an IA senior officer of medium stature firing R2 rifle from the hip. Compare that clip to one of the first clips of SiG in service where a 6ft tall IA soldier was firing it from proper stance.

You will get the idea.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Sep 2020 07:19

Thakur_B wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:ThakurB now that we have the Sig has a comparison been done on the recoil between that and the Insas 7.62x51?
There was a clip of of an IA senior officer of medium stature firing R2 rifle from the hip. Compare that clip to one of the first clips of SiG in service where a 6ft tall IA soldier was firing it from proper stance.

You will get the idea.

Question sir for you is can something be done to reduce the recoil?

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Sep 2020 07:28

NSG & ITBP allow foreign bidders for sniper rifles, months before embargo kicks in

From ThePrint

New Delhi: The elite National Security Group (NSG) and the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) have come out with open tenders for 7.62x51mm sniper rifles that allow foreign purchases, despite the item figuring in the negative import list put out by the Modi government last month.

The negative import list sets December 2020 as the cut-off date for the rifle, which means its foreign-manufactured versions should not be bought after that date.

The NSG came out with a tender for six sniper rifles on 15 September, also seeking accessories. The NSG tender does not allow direct participation of foreign Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEM). “However, the Indian agent can participate in the tender and import the rifles and supply to the NSG,” an industry source said.

The ITBP tender was issued on 10 August, a day after the negative import list came out, and seeks 358 sniper rifles of the 7.62x51mm variant.

No corrigendum has been issued by the ITBP for this tender except for an extension of the dates to close the bid. A source said foreign OEMs can’t directly apply, but any Indian company that serves as their agent/representative can import the item.
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Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 Sep 2020 08:02

ks_sachin wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
There was a clip of of an IA senior officer of medium stature firing R2 rifle from the hip. Compare that clip to one of the first clips of SiG in service where a 6ft tall IA soldier was firing it from proper stance.

You will get the idea.
Question sir for you is can something be done to reduce the recoil?

Very aggressive muzzle brake like Scar H. Would require ear protection and safe distance from fellow soldier. Or add a suppressor which defeats the advantage of length and weight that a rifle chambered in 7.62x51 with 16 inch barrel has over likes of G3 and FAL.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 20 Sep 2020 08:09

Thakur_B wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
Question sir for you is can something be done to reduce the recoil?
Very aggressive muzzle brake like Scar H. Would require ear protection and safe distance from fellow soldier. Or add a suppressor which defeats the advantage of length and weight that a rifle chambered in 7.62x51 with 16 inch barrel has over likes of G3 and FAL.

How does the Sig do it?

John · Post by **John** » 20 Sep 2020 11:13

tsarkar wrote:
putnanja wrote:Looks like the AD guns contract has been cancelled too ...

Carbines, Anti Air Systems for Indian Army to be made in India after MoD cancels import

The Russians had protested the AD Gun Purchase. Shows their influence in our procurement system.

In this case I think it hurt them we are likely to go for domestic Self propelled AD gun which can eventually replace Tunguskas as well (Russia would have Panstyr for that).

mody · Post by **mody** » 21 Sep 2020 21:30

Caracal now making a pitch for make in India.
If the ARDE carbine is good enough, then that's what we ought to opt for.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 21 Sep 2020 21:46

Hope the same happens for Negev MG, especially since they already have a local partner.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 22 Sep 2020 02:12

All the foreign OEM's who set up production units in India will be treated as and will be able to take advantage of being "Indian Manufacturers" for bidding to supply items in the negative list that comes into a scheduled effect.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Sep 2020 02:40

ks_sachin or anyone else who knows, what is the section LMG for the paki army? The counterpart to our Bren/INSAS LMG? I know they use the MG-3 but that has a weight of 11.5kg without tripod, not too different from our FN-MAG which is a company level weapon in IA. Do they use any magazine fed LMGs or does each section actually carry an MG-3?

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Sep 2020 05:43

nachiket wrote:ks_sachin or anyone else who knows, what is the section LMG for the paki army? The counterpart to our Bren/INSAS LMG? I know they use the MG-3 but that has a weight of 11.5kg without tripod, not too different from our FN-MAG which is a company level weapon in IA. Do they use any magazine fed LMGs or does each section actually carry an MG-3?

Nachiket I have read of the use of the FN Minimi.

But remember our Bren LMG also weight about 9 or 10 Kgs.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 22 Sep 2020 06:10

ks_sachin wrote:
nachiket wrote:ks_sachin or anyone else who knows, what is the section LMG for the paki army? The counterpart to our Bren/INSAS LMG? I know they use the MG-3 but that has a weight of 11.5kg without tripod, not too different from our FN-MAG which is a company level weapon in IA. Do they use any magazine fed LMGs or does each section actually carry an MG-3?

Nachiket I have read of the use of the FN Minimi.

From what I know they have small numbers of the Minimi Para version for their paratroopers. It is not their standard section LMG.

But remember our Bren LMG also weight about 9 or 10 Kgs.

The Bren Mk3 and 4 version weigh less right? I thought our 7.62x51mm conversions (or new builds) were all based on the Bren Mk.3/4. They should be lighter. If they are not then it begs the question as to why we did not replace it with the belt-fed FN-MAG. The British replaced theirs with the L7 which is a license built FN-MAG. That is their section level LMG.

I remember complaints from Kargil timeframe about the paki MG's being all belt fed (MG-3's presumably) and being able to outgun our mag fed INSAS and Brens.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 22 Sep 2020 06:39

Been mk3 and 4 both weigh close to 9 kg AFAIK.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 22 Sep 2020 14:37

tsarkar wrote:Question to firearm enthusiasts, especially in US.

How close groupings have they been able to achieve in burst mode and full auto mode. Whether 7.62x51 or 5.56x45

It is not possible to achieve meaningful accuracy in 7.62x51 in full auto unless you are in prone or using a bipod. 5.56x45 has so less recoil that you can retain a decent grouping as long as you are holding the gun firm.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Sep 2020 19:50

first time India is leveraging the inherent power of its weapon's buying program and the negative imports list

Livefist@livefist

BREAKING: After Indian Army's decision to abort deal, UAE's Caracal course-corrects, says will build the 93,895 carbines FULLY in India, says it has identified land, facility & local partners to begin production immediately https://bit.ly/2ZT2mqo

3:22 PM · Sep 21, 2020

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 23 Sep 2020 18:35

Webley & Scott, the iconic British gun manufacturing firm, to set up new unit in UP’s Hardoi.

Webley & Scott (W&S), the iconic British firearms manufacturing company, will soon set up its gun production unit in Uttar Pradesh. According to reports, Webley & Scott’s new unit will be set up in the Hardoi district and it will become functional from November. This will also be the first foreign company to manufacture firearms in India.

Webley & Scott, which armed the Allied forces during the two World Wars and produced weapons for at least 15 countries, will now mark its presence in the Indian subcontinent with the new unit in Sandila (Hardoi), barely 30 km from Lucknow. The handgun manufacturing giant has joined hands with Lucknow-based Sial Manufacturers Pvt Ltd for the project and will begin operations with the production of revolvers. The new unit will manufacture its .32 revolver in the first phase.

Joginder Pal Singh Sial of Sial Manufacturers, the all-India distributor of W&S products, said, "The government`s support and the Centre`s ‘Make in India’ policy helped the project take final shape." He further said, "The cost of the .32 revolver will be Rs 1.6 lakh. We will give stiff competition to the arms manufactured by ordnance factories. People will now get world-class weapons at their doorsteps."

According to the government spokesman, John Bright, the co-owner of Webley & Scott has said that they would later manufacture pistols, airguns, shotgun and ammunition as well.

"We decided to invest in India and in the state of Uttar Pradesh keeping in view the vast market potential. The idea to expand our business got shape after discussions with the Sial family in 2018. We entered a new joint venture for the manufacture of firearms and airguns in India for the Indian domestic market. We got the licence to manufacture firearms in India in 2019," said Bright in a statement.

He said the original design of the Mark IV .32 pistol of 1899 would be used to cater to the Indian market in the first phase.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Sep 2020 01:04

^^^^^^^

so, no more देसी कट्टा then

all UP gansters will now have to upgrade and carry the Indian made W&S Mark IV onlee

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Sep 2020 01:27

Price is still too high for the amount of usage.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 24 Sep 2020 01:33

ramana wrote:Price is still too high for the amount of usage.

saar, the ustads will be soon rolling out desi copies of this W&S model in every local gun foundry and workshop in UP.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Sep 2020 03:43

we have been neglecting other foirepower like UBGL and AGL.

Features of Grenade Launchers

OFB UBGL 40 mm

40MM MGL

AGS-30 AGL

So basically they have two types of grenades 40x46mm low velocity for rifle use and 30x29 mm high velocity.

I knnow 40x46mm is being made in a new factory.
Most likely the 30x29 mm is imported from Russia?

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 25 Sep 2020 08:10

There is 40x46 high velocity grenade too but it is not in use in Indian Service.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 28 Sep 2020 02:24

An interesting development: the Americans began to actively switch to the new 6.8 mm cartridge, which in its characteristics is much closer to 7.62x39 mm than NATO 5.56. The video clearly shows that the recoil when fired does not differ much from the recoil when fired from the AK 7.52 mm (AK-203, etc.). Nevertheless, according to the Americans, this caliber is more effective in close combat than 5.56 mm. Unlike the USA, India and Russia have never completely removed the intermediate cartridge 7.62x39 mm from service. This caliber, among other things, provides the ability to create a subsonic cartridge to minimize the sound of a shot in special operations. This is something that you never can do with 5.56 mm NATO. After all, the GoI decision for AK-203 production in India has sense.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 28 Sep 2020 17:21

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1310534556311724033

JUST IN: Indian MoD clears deal for 72,000 more @SigSauerInc SIG 716 assault rifles

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 28 Sep 2020 17:24

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1645092

Under the Buy Indian (IDDM) category, the DAC approved procurement of Static HF Tans-receiver sets....The HF radio sets will enable seamless communication for the field units of Army and Air Force and are being procured at an approx. cost of Rs. 540 crore....Further, to equip the Frontline Troops of the Army the DAC also accorded approval for procurement of SIG SAUER Assault Rifles at a cost of approx. Rs.780 crore.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 28 Sep 2020 18:46

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1310534556311724033
JUST IN: Indian MoD clears deal for 72,000 more @SigSauerInc SIG 716 assault rifles

I suppose as long as the Jawan on the ground is happy with the performance its worth paying the price of not proceeding with the OFB 7.62x51mm

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 28 Sep 2020 23:04

What about the spares, consumables, magazines for the Sig in the long term - whats our plan for that?

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 29 Sep 2020 15:05

The sig reaches LAC

https://theprint.in/defence/indian-army ... kh/512735/

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Sep 2020 03:01

Bharadwaj wrote:The sig reaches LAC

https://theprint.in/defence/indian-army ... kh/512735/

So they posted the news. Good.
Now compare the PLA 5.45mm range and muzzle energy.