Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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YashG
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

Prasad wrote:All that prospect is only if these companies can enable the DPSU to produce worthwhile products on par with what private companies can. How would a small company get that to happen? That is a solid risk.
Definitely its a solid risk. So you concern of being able to empower a small company to pull that off is a worthwhile problem. That is where a board seat and equity participation might be useful. A private company doing constant lobbying/outreach/stakeholdership on solving these issues can tame the beast, given they are paid handsomely (equity valuation becoming 3X). But likely that SSS doesnt harbor these ideas and is a more research than management turnaround kind of company. That could be true reason this wont take off.
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

YashG wrote:
Prasad wrote:All that prospect is only if these companies can enable the DPSU to produce worthwhile products on par with what private companies can. How would a small company get that to happen? That is a solid risk.
Definitely its a solid risk. So you concern of being able to empower a small company to pull that off is a worthwhile problem. That is where a board seat and equity participation might be useful. A private company doing constant lobbying/outreach/stakeholdership on solving these issues can tame the beast, given they are paid handsomely (equity valuation becoming 3X). But likely that SSS doesnt harbor these ideas and is a more research than management turnaround kind of company. That could be true reason this wont take off.
SSS - Stump, Schule Somappa is not a small company.
YashG
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

ks_sachin wrote:
YashG wrote:
Definitely its a solid risk. So you concern of being able to empower a small company to pull that off is a worthwhile problem. That is where a board seat and equity participation might be useful. A private company doing constant lobbying/outreach/stakeholdership on solving these issues can tame the beast, given they are paid handsomely (equity valuation becoming 3X). But likely that SSS doesnt harbor these ideas and is a more research than management turnaround kind of company. That could be true reason this wont take off.
SSS - Stump, Schule Somappa is not a small company.
SSS's revenues in 2017 were 252 Cr, in 2018 302 Cr. Assuming a yoy increase of 20% in FY 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022 - They will be somewhere in 500-600 Cr revenues range where a majority is coming from non arms production.

When OFBs became DPSUs, 65000 Cr order were place across 41 factories. AWEIL which makes the rifles has 10 factories of these 41. Safe to assume their order book is upwards of 10000 cr, probably 15K Cr and all of it in arms production. Even owning a slice of the DPSU is a growth that takes them years ahead.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

What they need is support.
They developed an upgrade kit for the Dragunov and we went and ordered the same from the Russians.
They have developed some sniper rifles and we are still dilly-dallying on sniper rifle procurement or going foreign.
The IA in its WE Directorate should have a technology development wing where it works with enterprises and help them understand weapon systems requirements and the operational needs to the army. PRovide this consultancy to all so that private enterprises can tap into the institutional knowledge within the army.
If a design reaches a certain level of maturity then go from there.
We have to handhold if we want our industry to design and manufacture. Otherwise, we will manufacture with the IP in foreign hands or have half baked efforts from the DPSUs and ARDE.

I am not an expert in these things but some of the omissions in the OFB design makes me feel that we should shut down the entire OFB / ARDE small arms design and manufacture effort and fund these private companies. If after donkeys years these two organisations have not cottoned on to what makes a good weapon then there is no hope.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

That is Brig. MKK Iyer (Retd). He claims this helmet can stop 7.62x39 ammunition. This product seems to have been developed for IA RFI last year for 80K helmets.

Maybe we will see more in coming Defexpo.
YashG
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

ks_sachin wrote:What they need is support.
They developed an upgrade kit for the Dragunov and we went and ordered the same from the Russians.
They have developed some sniper rifles and we are still dilly-dallying on sniper rifle procurement or going foreign.
The IA in its WE Directorate should have a technology development wing where it works with enterprises and help them understand weapon systems requirements and the operational needs to the army. PRovide this consultancy to all so that private enterprises can tap into the institutional knowledge within the army.

I am not an expert in these things but some of the omissions in the OFB design makes me feel that we should shut down the entire OFB / ARDE small arms design and manufacture effort and fund these private companies. If after donkeys years these two organisations have not cottoned on to what makes a good weapon then there is no hope.
Yes quite correct. OFBs dont have proper design capabilities, nor they have good process control based production methodology. Shutting down OFBs is a good idea. But better would be salvage whats good in OFBs and spin off it to someone who can leverage whatever good is there.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image
Image

MKU stepping up the game along with Tonbo. When will IA bite?
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Thakur_B wrote:Image
Image

MKU stepping up the game along with Tonbo. When will IA bite?
Perhaps it is muzzled by the MoD!!!
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image
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Atal pistol, first IDDM striker fired polymer frame pistol by Astr Defence.
Available in 9x19 and 0.32 ACP.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by souravB »

It is a shame that DefExpo22 has been postponed. Was looking forward to the small arms being showcased.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Thakur_B wrote:Image
Image

Atal pistol, first IDDM striker fired polymer frame pistol by Astr Defence.
Available in 9x19 and 0.32 ACP.
The founder of Astr defence is literally a college passout who developed initial prototype using OFB facilities.

OFB with all its experience and manpower came up with this
Image
Zynda
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Zynda »

Just curiosity (perhaps a little skeptic one)...how are these college pass outs able to bring out slick weapons? Do these folks have immense help from ex-OFB engineers etc? In current age, with Youtube etc., large quantity of information can be amassed quickly but still it is surprising & honestly gratifying to see such slick products.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

The product lineup from Astr Defence from their website. They have expanded into optics as well.

Red Dot Sight
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6X scope
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Atal Pistol in 9x19
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Atal pistol in 0.32 ACP (Civilian use)
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Indra Multi caliber Rifle
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Image
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They are also working on a 9x19 mm PDW/SMG
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Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

From initial days of SSS Defence (2017-18), when they had a partnership with LMT USA. The partnership was given up because of ITAR issues.
Image
Image
Image
YashG
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

Zynda wrote:Just curiosity (perhaps a little skeptic one)...how are these college pass outs able to bring out slick weapons? Do these folks have immense help from ex-OFB engineers etc? In current age, with Youtube etc., large quantity of information can be amassed quickly but still it is surprising & honestly gratifying to see such slick products.
never underestimate what a few men with extraordinary sense of purpose can achieve.
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

That looks like a copy of the CZ805. The Astr defence rifle.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Zynda wrote:Just curiosity (perhaps a little skeptic one)...how are these college pass outs able to bring out slick weapons? Do these folks have immense help from ex-OFB engineers etc? In current age, with Youtube etc., large quantity of information can be amassed quickly but still it is surprising & honestly gratifying to see such slick products.
A few years back, 3D cad drawings of many firearms were released on the internet and quickly made way to the darknet after FBI and ATF got involved. For the enterprising, the drawings would not be that hard to find.
ks_sachin
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Thakur_B wrote:
Zynda wrote:Just curiosity (perhaps a little skeptic one)...how are these college pass outs able to bring out slick weapons? Do these folks have immense help from ex-OFB engineers etc? In current age, with Youtube etc., large quantity of information can be amassed quickly but still it is surprising & honestly gratifying to see such slick products.
A few years back, 3D cad drawings of many firearms were released on the internet and quickly made way to the darknet after FBI and ATF got involved. For the enterprising, the drawings would not be that hard to find.
That plus a college dropout with an extraordinary sense of purpose!
I wish small arms design was so simple!
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »



Sako TRG now in hands of regular infantry as well.
csaurabh
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by csaurabh »

Zynda wrote:Just curiosity (perhaps a little skeptic one)...how are these college pass outs able to bring out slick weapons? Do these folks have immense help from ex-OFB engineers etc? In current age, with Youtube etc., large quantity of information can be amassed quickly but still it is surprising & honestly gratifying to see such slick products.
A handgun is not a tank or a helicopter. It can conceivably done by 1 person with some support in consultancy and manufacturing (eg. from OFB). Samuel Colt designed and made his revolver by himself you know. As to why OFB didn't come up with it, it is because OFB babus are entitled govt babus. Not because 'handguns r difficult'.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

csaurabh wrote:
Zynda wrote:Just curiosity (perhaps a little skeptic one)...how are these college pass outs able to bring out slick weapons? Do these folks have immense help from ex-OFB engineers etc? In current age, with Youtube etc., large quantity of information can be amassed quickly but still it is surprising & honestly gratifying to see such slick products.
A handgun is not a tank or a helicopter. It can conceivably done by 1 person with some support in consultancy and manufacturing (eg. from OFB). Samuel Colt designed and made his revolver by himself you know. As to why OFB didn't come up with it, it is because OFB babus are entitled govt babus. Not because 'handguns r difficult'.
Saar a modern assault rifle is probably a bit more complicated. That said the narrative I find hard to believe is of a college drop out …….

OFB is part of MoD. They don’t just open their doors to help said college dropout. Or do they?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by srin »

What does one learn in college that will help in designing a gun ?

Btw, it is also quite possible that he may just be the business guy / money bags in this, and hired others to do the hard work.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 221831.ece

AK 203 delayed.
Second Tranche of SiG 716i likely to be dropped.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Thakur_B wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 221831.ece

AK 203 delayed.
Second Tranche of SiG 716i likely to be dropped.
Then Desi TAR and 7,62 variants please, may be split OFB which is exporting cartridges is much more capable now?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Aditya_V wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 221831.ece

AK 203 delayed.
Second Tranche of SiG 716i likely to be dropped.
Then Desi TAR and 7,62 variants please, may be split OFB which is exporting cartridges is much more capable now?
The lack of design nous WRT the 7.62 INSAS had no bearing on OFB capability to export ammo.

The Sig should be procured for the IA and all of the infantry and mech should be equipped with it. We r playing merry he’ll with our logistics with this smorgasbord of small arms.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Sachin we can dictate what we want but world situations determine outcomes.
The IA better work with OFB and get going with the IAR 2.0 and Trichy for the Ak 47 versions.
Enough fooling around.
And experts should focus on solutions and not just problems.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thakur_B wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 221831.ece

AK 203 delayed.
Second Tranche of SiG 716i likely to be dropped.
Any excuse to delay seems to be the modus operandi.
The rifles will be firing Indian ammo. So what is this nonsense?
As part of pre-production activities, retrials were scheduled to be done with ammunition from the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) in Russia in the first half of February, two defence sources independently said. But due to the current situation they have been delayed by at least 3-4 months, one of the sources stated.

While the production activities are on, manufacturing of rifles will start after the trials, it has been learnt.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by rajkumar »

[youtube]https://youtu.be/RoveJ1oNhSM[/youtube]

India Military Production 5.56x45mm - Quality Low Cost Training Ammo
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

rajkumar wrote:

India Military Production 5.56x45mm - Quality Low Cost Training Ammo
Fixed YouTube embed for you.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

https://mobile.twitter.com/Viv_Krishnan ... 3444365313

SSS Defence once more hinting at AR pattern rifles under development. Earlier they had displayed AR pattern rifles in collaboration with LMT.

This year's defexpo cancellation put a lot of domestic small arms unveilings on hold.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »



A deep dive into new Chinese standard issue rifle QBZ 191, DMR QBU 191 and carbine QBQ 192.

The rifles are very AR 15 ish in ergonomics with buffer spring in stock, bolt catch release. They however have retained rock and lock magazine from QBZ 95.

They are sticking to their 5.8x42 round which offers superior performance to 5.56x45 NATO.

The impetus is also on thermals and optics. Their newest thermal optic is supposed to be wifi enabled to beam info to HUD.

They have also started to introduce modern body armour to their troops, an area which they were reluctant to adopt till date.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

https://www.zentechnologies.com/zen-sho ... ulator.php

Shootage / Trikaal cornershot developed by ARDE and manufactured by Zen Technologies.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

ARDE has floated a tender for development and manufacturing of 5.56x45 mm CQB carbine.

The body will be machined steel and furniture will be polymer.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »



The AK 12 is just a makeup job on the AK74M. The rails on handguard are kinda wonky and have considerable flex, making it unsuitable for mounting optics.

The word on the street is that the new magazines lack the durability of older AKM magazines.

The handguard has been designed as such to fit the older UBGL.

In short AK74 with zenitco kit, which is used by Russian SF is better than AK 12.

AK 203 being essentially similar to Ak12 barring a few downgrades, the writing on the wall is a bit ominous .
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I have not seen this particular video. But in US you cannot get genuine Russian army arms for the last nearly 10 years. That being the case it is difficult to see how this particular firearm is a representative of the AK 12. Therefore, the conclusion of quality is not justified. IMO.

Having said that, given the quality of the earlier AK and the quantity it was produced by the FSU. Why do they need this new AK12 is beyond me. The upgrade should have been sufficient for the next few decades. Unless they needed to completely change the calibre.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

They have built it with parts kits.

Kalashnikov concern was about to go bankrupt in early 2010s. The earlier AK 12 was radical, had new internals, bolt hold open, improved ergonomics and every thing. The initial prototypes required a lot of rework, had reliability issues and would have required significant investment for mass adoption.

Hence the all new AK74 AK12. To be honest factory fitted Zenitco furniture should fix it.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:I have not seen this particular video. But in US you cannot get genuine Russian army arms for the last nearly 10 years. That being the case it is difficult to see how this particular firearm is a representative of the AK 12. Therefore, the conclusion of quality is not justified. IMO.

Having said that, given the quality of the earlier AK and the quantity it was produced by the FSU. Why do they need this new AK12 is beyond me. The upgrade should have been sufficient for the next few decades. Unless they needed to completely change the calibre.
The AK74 had limitations.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

ks_sachin wrote: The AK74 had limitations.
Nyet. Rifle is fine.

Although, SiG550 and Fn-FNC are the best AK 'inspired' rifles out there.
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