Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ Not to mention, this time there are NIJ Level IV jackets already certified.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Thakur_B wrote:Ballistic protection upgrade to Helmets. Modern patka equivalent as an add-on to standard helmets seen on CRPF QAT in the valley.

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Even Army units have begun to opt for ceramic Patka upgrades for standard helmets.

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Have any studies been done in India where they have quantified the benefits of BPJs & Patkas?

A before-vs-after analysis: lives saved, injuries minimized etc?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ParGha »

Prem Kumar wrote:Have any studies been done in India where they have quantified the benefits of BPJs & Patkas? A before-vs-after analysis: lives saved, injuries minimized etc?
It is very hard to do a before/after analysis because other variables also changes over time (for example, violence went up 93-96, 00-03, 16-20; dipped in intervening years). In the US, the way they quantify it is by tracking certain trauma and injuries -- unfortunately, more trauma and injuries coming in for care means that the protections are working; if the protections didn't exist, in old days the soldier would be dead.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Kakkaji »

AK 203 contract for Amethi Factory soon: Army Chief Gen MM Naravane
New Delhi: The Amethi factory to manufacture modern assault rifles for the Army is likely to get operationalised soon, with the Army chief saying that a final contract is expected shortly and all issues have been sorted out.

“Negotiations are at an advanced stage. There were some last-minute hitches and hiccups and those have been ironed out now. I hope the final contract will be signed soon,” Army Chief Gen MM Naravane said

Sources said that as per current discussions, the rifles – to be made by a joint venture between Kalashnikov and the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) – are expected to cost under Rs 70,000 a piece, significantly cheaper that US made rifles imported by the Army under an emergency order that cost the exchequer Rs 89,000 a piece.

Besides, India will get complete know how to manufacture modern assault rifles, given that the contract specifies that all of these need to be made completely in India from the first day. Sources said that there had been differences regarding the pricing of the deal, as OFB and Kalashnikov’s offer was deemed to be high but this is being sorted out.

A bulk of the cost for the rifles will go towards OFB which needs to absorb the technology. Sources said that the royalty per rifle to the Russian side will be just over Rs 6,000, against the rifle cost of Rs 70,000.
These numbers should set all speculations to rest.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Prem Kumar wrote:This came from the blue!!

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/drd ... 03962.html
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The reporter messes up stating that this will replace venerable Hi Power in service.
Edit: Also, just 300 rounds of testing so far :rotfl:
Last edited by Thakur_B on 14 Jan 2021 09:23, edited 1 time in total.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

https://mobile.twitter.com/SupratikSaum ... 3865552896
https://mobile.twitter.com/SupratikSaum ... 4788272128

RFI Ishapore small arms brochures. New Mk1 variant of OFB 7.62x51 sniper with improved range of 800 meters. The .338 lapua Magnum rifle looks definitely a result of ToT.

Rest is old wine in older bottles.
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Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Thakur_B wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:This came from the blue!!

https://www.livemint.com/news/india/drd ... 03962.html
Image

The reporter messes up stating that this will replace venerable Hi Power in service.
Edit: Also, just 300 rounds of testing so far :rotfl:
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2021/ ... eapon.html

More information from the week. This has been developed jointly by Army and ARDE. Uses 3D printed parts, has a 33 round magazine.

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The magazine looks like Glock magazine. This looks like a candidate for Sterling replacement more than JVPC.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Kakkaji wrote:AK 203 contract for Amethi Factory soon: Army Chief Gen MM Naravane
A bulk of the cost for the rifles will go towards OFB which needs to absorb the technology. Sources said that the royalty per rifle to the Russian side will be just over Rs 6,000, against the rifle cost of Rs 70,000.
These numbers should set all speculations to rest.
So if the total production run is 2,00,000 rifles then the license fee will be Rs 1,200,000,000/-. If the TAR from OFB was selected this amount would have been saved.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

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Shakti NIJ level IV flexible body armour and Asmi machine pistol, both designed by the Army.
Thakur_B
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

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Tonbo products being adopted by CRPF for QATs.
Manish_P
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Very TFTA.. the NVDs look like those used by the SEALs :D

Thanks for sharing, Thakur saab
Karan M
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Sadly ironic, to see CRPF buy sophisticated Indian which IA procedures wont allow. Hope Tonbo's QC is up to spec.
Karan M
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

The ASMI looks quite bulky. More of a prototype than an actual weapon IMHO.
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Post by Pratyush »

^^^
I assume that the weight would have been taken care by the designer in the design phase itself as he would be more conscious of the requirement of his fellow men.
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Post by Thakur_B »

Karan ji,

At under 2 Kgs it is quite light. Much lighter than HK MP7, Kriss Vector and Mini Uzi. It is bulkier and heavier than Micro Uzi though.

The JVPC lineage is apparent in the charging handle, ergonomics and the construction of the gun. If army is on board, it can be pushed into production in a couple of years after all refinements.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Is it 9mm? Then its Sterling replacement. Correct assessment.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ParGha »

ramana wrote:Is it 9mm? Then its Sterling replacement. Correct assessment.
But no one wants a Sterling replacement: carrying one during IPKF and early days of the Kashmir Insurgency was a "shoot me first -- I'm an officer or radio operator" advertisement for enemies. The 9x19mm bullets couldn't penetrate even the light cover. That (along with Sterling open-bolt action problems) was one of the big reasons most YOs hated SMGs, and took on captured or newly bought AKMs as soon as possible.

At best, this is an indigenous substitution to the limited number of B&T MP9s that Ghatak-platoon scouts use (usually with suppressors to kill enemy guards and dogs). AKM is still preferred. Outside of the army, of course, it has plenty of applications for police and paramilitary forces.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Would'nt it make sense for Tiruchirappalli and Ishapore rifle factories to join forces and come out with a common and better assault rifle rather then make competing or rehashed products and then struggle for orders?
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Post by ParGha »

The operational and obsolescence issues with Sterling aside, it was one of my favorite SMGs ever. The Sterling was the first real gun I was allowed to hold (unloaded, of course) as a 6-year old accompanying my grandpa to the canteen. It used to be a favorite for the point-man in a patrol; its high rate of automatic fire was much admired for breaking out of ambushes. It will live on, many many galaxies away, as the Imperial Stormtroopers' E11 blaster.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/134 ... 42503?s=20 ---> Final wrinkles ironed out, deal to manufacture 6,71,427 AK-203 assault rifles in UP's Amethi District to be concluded soon, say reports. Our recent video on the weapon and the deal.

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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

The Indian Army’s ‘General Kalashnikov’ gives it a new 9 mm sub-machine gun
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-01-14
14 Jan 2021
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/134 ... 42503?s=20 ---> Final wrinkles ironed out, deal to manufacture 6,71,427 AK-203 assault rifles in UP's Amethi District to be concluded soon, say reports. Our recent video on the weapon and the deal.
If the contract is going to be signed in June/July of 2021. I wonder if IA will push for one more round of emergency purchase of Sig 716 (74K numbers) like the first 2 rounds of emergency purchases with 2021-2022 budget.
If they do all the troops on the northern border would have Sig as the standard rifle, and troops on the western front can have AK 203.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

It would be good to get another tranche of Sig Sauer battle rifles especially for Ladakh situation.

But with new US administration could run into issues.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

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Had heard the story of a young ⁦@ADGPI⁩ officer who chopped up an ⁦@OFB_India ⁩ #INSAS into a compact bullpup...in a month...fired 1000 rounds (with 2 stoppages). Caught up with him yday. “I did it in my spare time” he smiled. Think what he could do full time..
https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 6022669312.
This INSAS bullpup designed by an army officer looks pretty TFTA for a rough prototype.
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Post by Pratyush »

2 stories in 2 days of the Indian army men taking initiatives to solve problems that they have experienced with equipment that they have. I hope that this results in the brass making this a part of the institutional process. Once they are successful the brass transfers the designs to a production agency and the product inducted into service.

That could be a beginning of a beautiful relationship.
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Post by Thakur_B »

Insas bullpup was made eons back but was never cleared. This was second attempt at making a bullpup Insas.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Pratyush wrote:2 stories in 2 days of the Indian army men taking initiatives to solve problems that they have experienced with equipment that they have. I hope that this results in the brass making this a part of the institutional process. Once they are successful the brass transfers the designs to a production agency and the product inducted into service.

That could be a beginning of a beautiful relationship.
Absolutely! Not just production agency, but also DRDO + Academia labs could be opened up for them to try out their designs. If it starts to look promising, they could be allowed to recruit a small team of specialists as a "skunkworks" team to bring the concept to reality rapidly.

Most great stuff get done this way: small group of passionate people with a little bit of resources
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Post by Vips »

Pratyush wrote:2 stories in 2 days of the Indian army men taking initiatives to solve problems that they have experienced with equipment that they have. I hope that this results in the brass making this a part of the institutional process. Once they are successful the brass transfers the designs to a production agency and the product inducted into service.

That could be a beginning of a beautiful relationship.
Isnt it the job of the design agency or DRDO or OFB to take feedback and make changes and improvements? What the heck are they doing if the army men themselves are solving the issues?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Indian small arms system is broken.
Army isn't sure what it wants. From 5.56x45 to Multi caliber to 5.56x45 again to 7.62x51 to a mix of 7.62x51, 7.62x39 and 5.56x45

Designers (Arde and OFB) are borderline clueless on what user wants and the design iterations are glacial. From INSAS to Excalibur to Mk1C took 15 years. MCIWS was a lose mish mash of Ar-15 and AR-18. R2 was half baked as well. JVPC is decent but the exotic non standard ammunition puts a spanner in the works.

Manufacturer (ofb) has a reverse midas touch for any design and needs to be dismantled and sold off to the highest bidder.

Now the Army is slowly adopting the Navy mode of in house design and the very first clean sheet design is more refined than anything OFB has come up in recent years. IMO this is a very welcome change in mindset and quite revolutionary in itself. Army leading the change will bring a quantum leap in small arms and infantry systems designs.
Last edited by Thakur_B on 15 Jan 2021 23:42, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thankur_B,
The rot can be traced to when DRDO was expanded by merging military test labs and establishments into DRDO to give it heft.
And then civilians were put in charge of those labs gradually.
Thus they lost the imperative to serve the military and took on a civil service approach.

Same with OFB when the IOFBS which is a civil service was created.

EEg. HAL had an Air Vice Marshal as IAF serving officer to monitor the LCA program. Usually, he was ignored.
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Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Thankur_B,
The rot can be traced to when DRDO was expanded by merging military test labs and establishments into DRDO to give it heft.
And then civilians were put in charge of those labs gradually.
Thus they lost the imperative to serve the military and took on a civil service approach.

Same with OFB when the IOFBS which is a civil service was created.

EEg. HAL had an Air Vice Marshal as IAF serving officer to monitor the LCA program. Usually, he was ignored.
This reminded me of a dialog from one of the Dune books. Paraphrasing:- If a bureaucracy cannot be removed by elections then it will expand it self to the limits of available energy of the system.

The ill effects of this are visible everywhere in the Indian system.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thats Parkinson second law.
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Post by Pratyush »

I didn't know about that, thanks will learn more about it now.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

ramana wrote:It would be good to get another tranche of Sig Sauer battle rifles especially for Ladakh situation.

But with new US administration could run into issues.
SiG is just one of may AR-10/15 pattern rifles and the design is no longer patented. Get an Indian firm to make AR-10 pattern rifle, piston or DI. Buy in bulk for commonality. Literally every component is available off the shelf. It is the Lego kit rifle.

MKU has an MoU with caracal for CAR817 and CAR816. We should use it to our advantage.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Baby TAR: India’s smallest assault rifle.

It’s laptop-sized, can be carried inside a coat and can spit AK-47 bullets out at the rate of roughly 700 rounds per minute. Meet the ‘Baby TAR’, India’s smallest assault rifle. Developed by the Indian Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappali, the weapon is a compact version of the legendary AK-47, which the factory has been mass-producing since 2017. This in-house OFB innovation :roll: comes soon after the Indian Army unveiled a 9x19mm carbine developed in-house.

The TAR-3, a compact, fully automatic version of the Trichy Assault Rifle (TAR), recently passed a series of trials at the Ordnance Factory Trichy (OF Trichy). A dozen prototypes have been produced during the lockdown. The weapon is currently undergoing ‘unofficial trials’ with the Indian Army, where three prototypes are believed to have fired over 2,000 rounds each without stoppages.

The ‘Baby TAR’ fires the same 7.62x39 mm cartridge as the AK-47—this ammunition is in widespread production and use, thereby easing logistics. It uses the AK-47’s distinctive 30-round curved box magazine and features a commonality of parts with existing weapons. Its designers chopped down the AK-47’s 16-inch barrel, producing a weapon with an 8.3-inch barrel and an effective range of 150 metres. The TAR-3 is 19.2 inches long with its stock folded, and at 2.7 kg (unloaded), is one kg lighter than the AK-47. It has a monoblock receiver, shockproof polymer lower parts and two Picatinny rails that can mount a variety of sights and scopes.

Its designers say it is ideal for users like special forces and counter-terrorist operators who want compact, concealable weapons but with the firepower of a full-sized AK-47. The assault rifle is also suitable for aircraft, tank and vehicle crews. Significantly, the weapon was developed as an unsolicited design—without waiting for army General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQRs), which usually is the start point for weapon development. To do so, the factory used the experience it gained from mass producing the Trichy Assault Rifle, a wholly indigenous copy of the AK-47.

Designers at OF Trichy appear to have solved a problem that stumped the gun designers of the DRDO’s now-discarded INSAS carbine variant in the 1990s—how to reduce the barrel heating and the excessive sound and flash produced when an assault rifle bullet is fired from a short barrel. The DRDO did it by switching over to a smaller bullet, the 5.56x30 round used in the JVPC carbine. The Baby TAR designers solved the problem by used internal metal reflectors to insulate the foregrip from the barrel and by designing, in-house, a compact flash hider at the barrel muzzle. The gun can presently fire four full magazines—around 120 rounds—without the barrel heating. This development is noteworthy because it means Indian designers now understand the ‘know-why’, rather than just the ‘know-how’ that they would have gained from a licensed production.

Compacting the AK

The Soviet Union began producing compact, stubbier versions of its AK-74 rifle (an AK-47 evolution firing the 5.45x39 mm cartridge) in the 1970s. Copies of this compact assault rifle have been famously attached to Osama bin Laden, ISIS chief Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi and more recently, Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko. Compact versions of the AK-47 believed to have been produced in the frontier regions of Pakistan, have been recovered by Indian security forces from terrorists in Jammu and Kashmir in recent months.

Trichy is one of two Indian ordnance factories already mass-producing Indian versions of the legendary Kalashnikov (the original weapon was never patented and is freely made by countries across the world). The ‘Ghatak’, a copy made by Rifle Factory Ishapore, did not find as much favour. The full-sized TAR is believed to be a copy of the Bulgarian AR-M1, itself a licensed copy of the Kalashnikov. Over 500,000 Bulgarian weapons have been imported by India’s central, state and paramilitary forces over the past decade—the TAR, which began bulk production in 2017, has also helped reducing imports from that east European country. OF Trichy has developed four variants of the rifle, with fixed, side-folding, under-folding and telescoping butts. Nearly 20,000 weapons have been delivered to the Indian police, paramilitary and central armed police forces. Interestingly, each TAR costs around Rs 55,000—far less than the licensed AK-203 to be produced by Indo-Russian Rifles, which will cost upwards of Rs 75,000. And the compact version could cost less than the full-length TAR.

The compact TAR’s arrival has added to growing numbers of indigenously designed small arms. From a virtual drought a few years back, there are now multiple indigenous designs available, chambered for various cartridges. Besides the Army’s 9x19mm carbine, the DRDO has developed a variant firing a 5.56x45 mm cartridge, for a different Army requirement. The JVPC, a DRDO-OFB carbine, passed Army and MHA development trials last year. Bengaluru-based small arms start up SSS Defence has its own designs for weapons, chambered for 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 cartridges, and an upgrade kit for existing AK-47 variants. All these designs, of course, are at the prototype stage and will need to fire several thousand rounds before they are fit for mass-production and induction.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Vips wrote:Baby TAR: India’s smallest assault rifle.

It’s laptop-sized, can be carried inside a coat and can spit AK-47 bullets out at the rate of roughly 700 rounds per minute. Meet the ‘Baby TAR’, India’s smallest assault rifle. Developed by the Indian Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappali, the weapon is a compact version of the legendary AK-47, which the factory has been mass-producing since 2017. This in-house OFB innovation :roll: comes soon after the Indian Army unveiled a 9x19mm carbine developed in-house.
The prototype was displayed last Defexpo.



OFT is much better than RFI.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Vips wrote:Baby TAR: India’s smallest assault rifle.
...
The TAR-3, a compact, fully automatic version of the Trichy Assault Rifle (TAR), recently passed a series of trials at the Ordnance Factory Trichy (OF Trichy). A dozen prototypes have been produced during the lockdown. The weapon is currently undergoing ‘unofficial trials’ with the Indian Army, where three prototypes are believed to have fired over 2,000 rounds each without stoppages.

The ‘Baby TAR’ fires the same 7.62x39 mm cartridge as the AK-47—this ammunition is in widespread production and use, thereby easing logistics. It uses the AK-47’s distinctive 30-round curved box magazine and features a commonality of parts with existing weapons. Its designers chopped down the AK-47’s 16-inch barrel, producing a weapon with an 8.3-inch barrel and an effective range of 150 metres. The TAR-3 is 19.2 inches long with its stock folded, and at 2.7 kg (unloaded), is one kg lighter than the AK-47. It has a monoblock receiver, shockproof polymer lower parts and two Picatinny rails that can mount a variety of sights and scopes.
..
Kind of like a shorter Zastava M92 isn't it?

Thakur ji, could you shed more light on the differences?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thakur, Can Baby TAR meet the carbine requirement in RR regiments so there is common bullet?

Also why so many calibres for carbines?
Army has not decided as usual?

Is this infantry responsibility?
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