Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

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Barath
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussio

Post by Barath »

Rs_singh wrote: Replacement of standard issue steel jackets with hollow points overcomes this perceived lack of lethality in 5.56. I’ll even go on to say that each target is on average engaged by a huge number of rounds at which point 1 rd or 2rd of this or that caliber barely matters.
Aren't hollow point bullets banned in international warfare by the 1899 Hague Convention (more or less intended to outlaw Dum-Dum bullets from the Calcutta arsenal ? I assumed India would inherit that ratification )

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/hollow ... n-us-army/

While it's legal for police (thus crpf) and civilians, would it be really practical for an army who may have to face both opponents across the border and terror within ? Would it not create legal/diplomatic issues ?
Last edited by Barath on 07 Jul 2020 21:37, edited 1 time in total.
nachiket
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Rs_singh wrote: 2. Metallurgy. Barrel and magazine, both.
Not sure what you were responding to concerning barrel metallurgy. The INSAS mags are plastic. The old ones had a problem cracking at lower temps but that was irrespective of the size of the magazine I think.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rs_singh »

Nachiket,

Brevity is the devil at times. I was implying material fatigue for both barrel and mag. Longer plastic mags and sustained barrel use to be specific.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rs_singh »

Bharath, big difference between ammo from last century and current hollow points. not sure on the legality perspective (acceding to a treaty, ratifying it, etc) but Vienna convention also states that a human tgt can not be engaged by anything more than a 7.62mm and we all know that is not the case, ever. Further I would be very skeptical of a law from 1899 in current ops. The face of warfare has completely changed. CT ops and conventional ops are different things governed by different laws. I have never heard of us being obligated to any international treaty when fighting on own soil.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

nachiket wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:Not to add fuel to the fire, but our long range engagement suffers from acute shortages of both rifles and training. I’m now referring solely to sniper and counter sniper W&T for everyone to look at this holistically. We bought dragunovs in bulk but never setup dedicated schools for sniper trg, though we inherited the same at CIJWS and MHOW. SF runs courses at variety of schools focused on operators. Regular infantry has shorter courses run at btn level. Nothing dedicated, no standardization.
The new acquisitions for Sniper rifles were supposed to help remedy this problem. But the last update was that the numbers were reduced from 5700 to only 1800 because of budgetary restrictions and the manufacturers failing to satisfy the ToT clause in the original tender.
For such low numbers what TOT they want transferred? its another excuse

Why can the FN FAL be converted to sniper rifle mode? The UK did that.
Or make a rifle from scratch with modern features.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by srin »

Rs_singh wrote:Bharath, big difference between ammo from last century and current hollow points. not sure on the legality perspective (acceding to a treaty, ratifying it, etc) but Vienna convention also states that a human tgt can not be engaged by anything more than a 7.62mm and we all know that is not the case, ever. Further I would be very skeptical of a law from 1899 in current ops. The face of warfare has completely changed. CT ops and conventional ops are different things governed by different laws. I have never heard of us being obligated to any international treaty when fighting on own soil.
I thought that was 14.5mm, not 7.62mm.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

ramana wrote: Why can the FN FAL be converted to sniper rifle mode? The UK did that.
Or make a rifle from scratch with modern features.
Would an FN-FAL based sniper rifle be be better than the Dragunov? I doubt it. Closest analogue I can think of is the H&K PSG-1 which the NSG used to have, not sure if they still do. But that is primarily for Police SWAT teams and CT forces, not the battlefield. There was a need for real sniper rifles using a high powered cartridge like the .338 Lapua Magnum. The pakis already had modern sniper rifles at the LoC and they outranged us.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Barath »

The treaty is binding between those who signed it. While the 1899 is the origin, I believe it might be carried forward through other conventions and case law also.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... 9_and_1907

The last column shows that India, Pakistan have acceded to it in 1950 and China has in 1904.

While the face of modern warfare and technology has indeed changed, nations still by and large adhere to treaties that they accede to. Which often creates quixotic effects (eg completely legal to bomb, shell, harpoon, knife or shoot enemy soldiers with a non-expansive bullet, it isn't legal to do so with a expanding bullet. A civilian or a policeman can use it blithely, while or an army can use it legally against terrorists or non-state actors/LeT/Hizb/isis etc but not against another signee (China, Pakistan). Germany complained about Britain and had it upheld. Another irony - Ardagh (of the Ardagh-Johnson line fame in Ladakh ) argued to keep the Dum-Dum legal to use against the natives (ie Indians) but was overruled, while independent India acceded to it). Legality is not about where it is used (inside the territory or out) or how (in defense or in offense) but by who and against whom.

The previous comment 2nd link talks about element in the US army arguing to use hollow points (the US did not sign that section of the treaty, but still chose to follow it ; there is an international case cited also) and also arguing the age of the treaty, but AFAIK, it hasn't followed through.

Apparently hollow points can be theoretically created which do not expand (thus legal !) however one source said that these aren't seen as useful as damage inflicted is less (there's lots of similar nato studies on yaw/tumbling etc) and as increased penetrating power (eg against body armor) would push to use a different bullet. (penetration vs tumbling in the body are somewhat cross-purposes for a given caliber)

While you may be right that India may be willing to contravene legality in operation and heat of war, this would be much more detectable from the point of manufacture/issue, far before war; I wonder if India would choose to do so.

Having researched up a bit on the legality above, though, I'm still interested in your thoughts.

I know there was also discussion about using the same formations against terror and war (eg kargil) and that this was not preffered for various reasons.

Also, there could be other ways to get to more lethality in the same caliber (eg US moving to M855A1 from M855A https://www.americanrifleman.org/articl ... cartridge/), but this may also require much more data and doctrine on how they are meant to be used, distances of typical engagement (eg ~300 m), training, volume of fire etc. I know you touched briefly on some of them. Was wondering if it was permissible for you to elaborate in Indian context
Last edited by Barath on 07 Jul 2020 23:02, edited 1 time in total.
Barath
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Barath »

srin wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:human tgt can not be engaged by anything more than a 7.62mm [/b]and we all know that is not the case, ever.
I thought that was 14.5mm, not 7.62mm.
Can you elaborate (eg source hint or context) - I thought It's legal to use a 0.50 caliber or a 23 mm or a 20 mm cannon or more ...

The Saint Petersburg Declaration of 1868 deemed rounds less than 400 grams which are explosive,fulminating or incendiary to be inhumne; yet teh same can be used in anti-material (eg vehicle, bunker) or artillery can be used. And no one is going to worry about legality of an anti-material round that happens to intercept a human first

Looks like you are talking of something else ?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rs_singh »

Bharath,

I am not advocating illegal use of ammunition. I am saying, there are no international treaties prohibiting use of any ammo in CT ops on own soil, which is where I made the comment about hollow points in 5.56. CT ops and conventional ops are very distinct things.

Vienna conventionn should be easy to look up. pretty sure its 7.62 not, 14.5 (wow! )
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rs_singh »

nachiket wrote:
ramana wrote: Why can the FN FAL be converted to sniper rifle mode? The UK did that.
Or make a rifle from scratch with modern features.
Would an FN-FAL based sniper rifle be be better than the Dragunov? I doubt it. Closest analogue I can think of is the H&K PSG-1 which the NSG used to have, not sure if they still do. But that is primarily for Police SWAT teams and CT forces, not the battlefield. There was a need for real sniper rifles using a high powered cartridge like the .338 Lapua Magnum. The pakis already had modern sniper rifles at the LoC and they outranged us.
Couple of things here, the Soviet doctrine relied on self loading sniper rifles like dragunovs whereas western doctrine relies exclusively on bolt action. Each has its positives and negatives. SL allows more shots on target and quicker with less accuracy, bolt action needs more time with higher accuracy. IN actual use, both USA and USMC - both with dedicated sniper section, use bolt action. Our own exp also points to this, much more so in CT ops.
ramana
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

And FN/FAL is available to India.

In fact would take a few FN/FAL and change the barrel to a heavier one to reduce vibrations.

If we had done that we would have the eco system to convert rifles.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Click on first link below for VIDEO

https://twitter.com/Amansin40578878/sta ... 19429?s=20 ----> INSAS LMG Malfunctioning in Combat.

His very next tweet says....

https://twitter.com/Amansin40578878/sta ... 52961?s=20 ---> Not malfunctioning. My bad. Sorry.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO

https://twitter.com/JaidevJamwal/status ... 13761?s=20 ---> A CRPF soldier firing 31 rounds in a minute with a Lee Enfield 303 rifle
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

ThakurB

Does OFB make 5.56mm ammo to NATO standard?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

ramana wrote:ThakurB

Does OFB make 5.56mm ammo to NATO standard?
Saar I believe they do, Google maataji threw up this from 2011:
https://pib.gov.in/newsite/PrintRelease ... elid=78946
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Reddy »

Rs_singh wrote: Couple of things here, the Soviet doctrine relied on self loading sniper rifles like dragunovs whereas western doctrine relies exclusively on bolt action. Each has its positives and negatives. SL allows more shots on target and quicker with less accuracy, bolt action needs more time with higher accuracy. IN actual use, both USA and USMC - both with dedicated sniper section, use bolt action. Our own exp also points to this, much more so in CT ops.
One more issue with SL is - it is cumbersome to check if the camber is loaded correctly. You don't want a dud when you wait for hours for a shot. With bolt action - easier to check if there is a bullet before closing the breech completely.
(PS. Not 100% sure if SL sniper rifles have a way around this though)
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

ramana wrote:ThakurB

Does OFB make 5.56mm ammo to NATO standard?
Yes they do. Both M193 and SS109 equivalents which used to be displayed on their website. Their website update has removed a lot of listings. Have they produced them ever in any meaningful numbers, decent quality or price remains doubtful. What is known that IA buys a lot of ammunition for Tavors and M4s by import route.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Thakur_B wrote:
ramana wrote:ThakurB

Does OFB make 5.56mm ammo to NATO standard?
What is known that IA buys a lot of ammunition for Tavors and M4s by import route.
That is so depressing....And we want to take be a serious power!!!
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Rs_singh »

ks_sachin wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
What is known that IA buys a lot of ammunition for Tavors and M4s by import route.
That is so depressing....And we want to take be a serious power!!!
What’s so surprising? OFB products are too thin to get someone pregnant and too thick to jam a breach. Totally expected.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Rs_singh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
That is so depressing....And we want to take be a serious power!!!
What’s so surprising? OFB products are too thin to get someone pregnant and too thick to jam a breach. Totally expected.
Still depressing
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

For stuff like Ammo, I think we should remove the OFB monopoly and give it to a Private sector undertaking. Law and order can always tackle in case such ammo is sold illegally.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Aditya_V wrote:For stuff like Ammo, I think we should remove the OFB monopoly and give it to a Private sector undertaking. Law and order can always tackle in case such ammo is sold illegally.
And how long have we been talking about it?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thanks Mesha Vishwas and ThakhurB.

So OFB does make the cartridge but unknown numbers and quality.


It helps to know this.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by pankajs »

https://twitter.com/danielocarmon/statu ... 5054497793
Daniel Carmon @danielocarmon {former Ambassador to India and SriLanka}

Interesting report on a #MakeInIndia partnership btwn Indian #PLR Systems & #IsraelWeaponIndustries (IWI):2 new assault rifles developed in #Israel to be manufactured in #India.Proud to have participated in the inauguration of manufacturing plant in #MP
https://www.raksha-anirveda.com/iwis-ne ... ndia-soon/
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Post by MeshaVishwas »

Here is AP Police testing out the IWI/PLR small arms:

https://twitter.com/RKSharm15849483/sta ... 54880?s=19
Still very thankful for MHA/State Police forces for the orders(MSMC,Excalibur,OFB Sniper Rifle etc), hope more procurement from the Pvt sector follows.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

Aditya_V wrote:For stuff like Ammo, I think we should remove the OFB monopoly and give it to a Private sector undertaking. Law and order can always tackle in case such ammo is sold illegally.
I doubt if "the assumed leakage by private players" is the reason for not giving them orders for ammo production. Besides the criminal elements have absolutely no issues getting their ammo from elsewhere.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by veejey »

Army is making follow up order of 72000 more SIG 726 rifles.
In a major boost, Indian Army to place order for 72,000 more Sig716 assault rifles from US. Army has already recieved the first batch of rifles in december, last year.
https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 21152?s=19
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by sankum »

For 400 Battalions it will come to 360 sig rifles per Battalion or 90 rifles per company.
Rest weapons will be 11 Negev LMG and 35 Caracal Carbines per company of 136 men. The full infantry will be equipped with state of art weapons.
Last edited by sankum on 13 Jul 2020 03:30, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

But why couldn't we develop basic infantry weapons, what about sights, spare parts for these guns and NATO standard 7.62x51mm ammo. Will these atleast be made in India?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by abhik »

This is just sad, why can't this be manufactured for some private player at least?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by srin »

I'm highly confused. Irrespective of vendor, I want to focus on the respective calibers.

What is the official IA doctrine for use of 7.62x51 (Sig 716), 7.62x39 (Ak 203) and 5.56x45 (INSAS / Caracal ?)
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

RANT ALERT
Although incredibly happy with Inf modernisation, I wish DMA/MoD avoids step motherly treatment to swadeshi suppliers.
Image
It was tough to swallow the news of irresponsible delays towards payments for contracts executed by HAL but I calmed myself down as I knew the entire MoD ecosystem was with HAL but here it is just not dharma.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Manish_Sharma »

TWITTER

@KSingh1469 wrote:
All valid points but it’s also true the 716 is being inducted in good numbers and it makes sense for at least frontline units to standardise on one weapon system- this is the case the world over.716 is also pretty cheap and very high quality

Now ditch AK203 and go to @sssdefence
https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 65376?s=19
_________________________

@BrigMahalingam:
Indo-Russia Rifles Private Limited (IRRPL) a Indian Ordnance Factory Board & Russian Rosoboronexport and Kalashnikov Co JV to manufacture AK-203 has run into pricing problems. Took 13 months to submit techno-commercial bid. Wasn’t the cost of the weapon approved by the Govt then?
https://twitter.com/BrigMahalingam/stat ... 15616?s=19
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

sankum wrote:For 400 Battalions it will come to 360 sig rifles per Battalion or 90 rifles per company.
Rest weapons will be 11 Negev LMG and 35 Caracal Carbines per company of 136 men. The full infantry will be equipped with state of art weapons.
Where is 400 battalions from? Infantry frontline?

Where do RR fit in?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:
sankum wrote:For 400 Battalions it will come to 360 sig rifles per Battalion or 90 rifles per company.
Rest weapons will be 11 Negev LMG and 35 Caracal Carbines per company of 136 men. The full infantry will be equipped with state of art weapons.
Where is 400 battalions from? Infantry frontline?

Where do RR fit in?
RR is not Infantry Ramana. They have a diff ToE and training. They should get AK. Their engagements are diff to inf.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

sankum wrote:For 400 Battalions it will come to 360 sig rifles per Battalion or 90 rifles per company.
Rest weapons will be 11 Negev LMG and 35 Caracal Carbines per company of 136 men. The full infantry will be equipped with state of art weapons.
Sankum are you sure 400 inf bns.

Unless there have been a spate of new raisings then the no I came up with was 360 odd.

We remove Para and SF from that eq and perhaps even Mech Inf then it becomes less for 7.62 conversion.

Do you see Para and SF converting to 7.62?
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by sankum »

No, it was just a ballpark figure to see that 600 state of art personnel weapons have been bought for frontline infantry per battalion. Rest would most probably will be AK203.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by Khalsa »

I am so happy for this to happen (Sig purchase). This should hopefully kill the AK 203 JV.
I just hope we have a clear desi rifle contender like the Light Utility Helicopter against the the Russian JV.
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Re: Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

Post by srin »

If I look at the different usecases, there is COIN, mechanized infantry, regular/plains infantry and mountain infantry.

And here are my hypothesis:
- For COIN, where you need a round to punch through body armour of insurgents but at close range, an AK203 would be ok.
- For mechanized infantry, where the soldier can be resupplied from the IFV, and engagements could be at long ranges, a full power 7.62x51 round is needed. So, Sig 716 or alternatives.
- For mountain or regular infantry, where carrying very heavy rounds could be a problem, either the 5.56x45 or 7.262x39. Since we are looking a humongous 700K AK203s, I presume that we'd just retire the 5.56x45.
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