Modi Appoints Chief of Defence Staff (CDS): News and Discussions

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby jaysimha » 26 Dec 2019 12:49

Cabinet approves creation of the post of Chief of Defence Staff in the rank of four star General

In a landmark decision with tremendous reform in higher defence management in the country, the Union Cabinet chaired by Prime Minister Narendra Modi has approved to create the post of Chief of Defence Staff in the rank of a four-star General with salary and perquisites equivalent to a Service Chief. The Chief of Defence Staff will also head the Department of Military Affairs (DMA), to be created within the Ministry of Defence and function as its Secretary.



The following areas will be dealt by the Department of Military Affairs headed by CDS:

The Armed Forces of the Union, namely, the Army, the Navy and the Air Force.
Integrated Headquarters of the Ministry of Defence comprising Army Headquarters, Naval Headquarters, Air Headquarters and Defence Staff Headquarters.
The Territorial Army.
Works relating to the Army, the Navy and the Air Force.
Procurement exclusive to the Services except capital acquisitions, as per prevalent rules and procedures.


Apart from the above, the mandate of the Department of Military Affairs will include the following areas:

Promoting jointness in procurement, training and staffing for the Services through joint planning and integration of their requirements.
Facilitation of restructuring of Military Commands for optimal utilisation of resources by bringing about jointness in operations, including through establishment of joint/theatre commands.
Promoting use of indigenous equipment by the Services.


The Chief of Defence Staff, apart from being the head of the Department of Military Affairs, will also be the Permanent Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee. He will act as the Principal Military Adviser to Raksha Mantri on all tri-Services matters. The three Chiefs will continue to advise RM on matters exclusively concerning their respective Services. CDS will not exercise any military command, including over the three Service Chiefs, so as to be able to provide impartial advice to the political leadership.



As the Permanent Chairman of Chiefs of Staff Committee, CDS will perform the following functions:

CDS will administer tri-services organisations. Tri-service agencies/organisations/commands related to Cyber and Space will be under the command of the CDS.
· CDS will be member of Defence Acquisition Council chaired by Raksha Mantri and Defence Planning Committee chaired by NSA.

· Function as the Military Adviser to the Nuclear Command Authority.

· Bring about jointness in operation, logistics, transport, training, support services, communications, repairs and maintenance, etc of the three Services, within three years of the first CDS assuming office.

· Ensure optimal utilisation of infrastructure and rationalise it through jointness among the services.

· Implement Five-Year Defence Capital Acquisition Plan (DCAP), and Two-Year roll-on Annual Acquisition Plans (AAP), as a follow up of Integrated Capability Development Plan (ICDP).

· Assign inter-Services prioritisation to capital acquisition proposals based on the anticipated budget.

Bring about reforms in the functioning of three Services aimed at augmenting combat capabilities of the Armed Forces by reducing wasteful expenditure.
It is expected that this reform in the Higher Defence Management would enable the Armed Forces to implement coordinated defence doctrines and procedures and go a long way in fostering jointmanship among the three Services. The country would be benefitted by coordinated action on greater jointmanship in training, logistics and operations as well as for prioritisation of procurements.

Background

This follows the announcement made by the Prime Minister on 15th August 2019, in his address to the nation, inter alia, "India should not have a fragmented approach. Our entire military power will have to work in unison and move forward. All the three (Services) should move simultaneously at the same pace. There should be good coordination and it should be relevant to the hope and aspirations of our people. It should be in line with the changing war and security environment with the world. After formation of this post (CDS), all the three forces will get effective leadership at the top level."



****

VRRK/SC/SH


(Release ID :196102)
https://pib.gov.in/newsite/pmreleases.aspx?mincode=33

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby LakshmanPST » 26 Dec 2019 15:55

ramana wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:Is there a separate thread for discussion on jointness and Theater commands...??? I'm not able to find one...



Yes look in the later pages.


Couldn't search before 1 year on the site... Then tried Google and found only one inactive thread--->
viewtopic.php?t=6657

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby MeshaVishwas » 27 Dec 2019 09:53


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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ArjunPandit » 27 Dec 2019 15:40

wonder why is there so much delay in announcing the name of CDS...if it was Gen Rawat, would have been easier...

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Rakesh » 27 Dec 2019 20:19

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 4133494784 ---> So @BJP4UK has declared General Bipin Rawat the first CDS, before any announcement by the GOI.

That tweet by @BJP4UK has now been deleted.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Rakesh » 27 Dec 2019 22:10

Click on the link below to read the twitter feed....

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/12 ... 1287802880 ---> In yet another indication the government is all set to announce the name of the country’s first-ever Chief of Defence Staff, a pre-scheduled ceremony for the ceremonial transfer of the baton of Chairman of Chiefs of Staff Committee was deferred at the last minute on Friday.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby VinodTK » 29 Dec 2019 20:57

Government Amends Rules, Service Chiefs to Now Retire at 65 if Chosen as CDS
New Delhi: The country on Sunday moved a step closer to getting its first-ever Chief of Defence Staff (CDS), with the government amending the service rules of the three arms of the Indian Armed Forces, extending the retirement age of the service chiefs to 65 years if he is appointed as the CDS.

The CDS, a position for which the outgoing Army chief General Bipin Rawat is the front runner, will also be a member of the Nuclear Command Authority, headed by the Prime Minister.
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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 30 Dec 2019 12:18

Vidur, Still doubts on CDS roles and responsibilities esponsibilities?

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby sivab » 30 Dec 2019 15:10

https://twitter.com/MeghaSPrasad/status ... 8753312769

Megha Prasad
@MeghaSPrasad

Breaking : General Bipin Rawat named as Chief of Defence Staff

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby jaysimha » 30 Dec 2019 15:27

( earlier link posted is not correct ) So re-posting,

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Cabinet
24-December-2019 17:44 IST
Cabinet approves creation of the post of Chief of Defence Staff in the rank of four star General
https://pib.gov.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=196101

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Vidur » 30 Dec 2019 15:28

ramana wrote:Vidur, Still doubts on CDS roles and responsibilities esponsibilities?



I saw the evolution of the decision and am very clear :) My endeavour was to encourage forum members to understand the structure and the issues.

Will give detailed views in the evening but will state now that this a downgrading of service chiefs and CDS vis a vis bureaucrats. Key lies in CDS being first among equals and yet just Secy of 1 Dept of RM.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 30 Dec 2019 15:40

Thanks. I too saw it from afar.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby nandakumar » 30 Dec 2019 15:47

I submit that not too much be read into the arrangement where the CDX is only one of four secretaries who report to the DM. The more important thing is Defence Secretary is no longer responsible for military affairs which was the arrangement earlier. The second thing to note is that in whichever ministry there is more than one Secretary rank officer, the senior most person in the ministry is named as Secretary of the Ministry. For instance, in the Finance Ministry, there is Revenue Secretary, Expenditure Secretary, Dept of Economic Affairs Secretary, Department of Financial Services. The senior most is designated as Finance Secretary. Same is the case with Defence. I visualise a situation where if not now, in the future at least, the CDS in his capacity as Secretary Military Affairs, may well end up as the senior most of serving Secretaries in the Defence Ministry.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby g.sarkar » 30 Dec 2019 16:21

https://www.ibtimes.co.in/outgoing-army ... aff-810999
Outgoing Army chief General Bipin Rawat named India's first Chief of Defence Staff
Chief of Defence Staff will be the principal military advisor to the defence minister and head the new Department of Military Affairs to ensure jointness in training, logistics and procurement of the three services.
By : IBT News DeskDec 30, 2019

In a major move, Indian Army chief General Bipin Rawat has been named as India's first Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) – a four-star position being created as part of a defence management overhaul.
The CDS will also be the principal military advisor to the defence minister and head the new Department of Military Affairs to ensure jointness in training, logistics and procurement of the three services between the Indian Army, Indian Air Force and the Indian Navy.
Bipin Rawat was named the CDS just a day before he was to retire from service after completing a full three-year term as the Chief of Indian Army Staff.
The announcement for the creation of the top military post has been a long-pending recommendation of various defence panels.
Union Human Resource Development Minister Prakash Javadekar had announced a few days back, "CDS will have all powers of a secretary-level officer. The files need not go through defence secretary and the CDS will be empowered to send to it directly to the defence minister."
.....
Gautam

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Philip » 30 Dec 2019 22:19

Congrats to Gen.Rawat. He has an onerous task before him.Greater integration of the military and the MOD to better and faster functioning and also integrating the 3 services into more efficient fighting forces in theatre operatins in future conflicts.
We wish him the very best of luck!

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Vidur » 30 Dec 2019 23:22

As promised here are my views on CDS

A. Why it is a degradation of Service Chiefs :

1. Defence Secy is head of all Policy and Administrative matters for the entire Raksha Mantralaya. He is mandated to ensure Defence of the country. He is responsible to Parliament PAC for the budgets and finances of the defence ministry. He coordinates all the other departments. Though he is De Jure First Among Equals of all secretaries, he is De Facto the head of the defence ministry

2. He is de jure equal to VCOAS/VCAS/VCNS but is De Facto senior to them and chairs meetings when he and they are present. COAS/CNS/CAS do not attend meetings which Defence Secretary is chairing. In order of precedence Def Secy is 23 with all Secy's Govt of India and VCOAS. Service Chiefs are 12 (Below Cabinet Secy, UPSC Chairman, CEC, Supreme Court Judges and many others). De Facto Def Secy has more power than Service Chiefs.

3. This system is convoluted and is a result of decades of degradation of Armed Forces vis a vis bureaucracy both De Jure and De Facto. This has accellerated in the last few years and has severe imapct on operations and national defence.

4. Ideally Lt Gens should be equal to Secys GOI, VCOAS equal to Cabinet Secy and COAS/CNS/CAS equal to Ministers of State.

5. It was hoped that CDS will be an opportunity for comprehensive reform of the system. Comprehensive proposals on restructuring were made including equivalence on lines of A.4. These were shot down by the bureaucracy.

6. As a compromise it was agreed that a Dep of Mil Affairs would be created. It would be headed by VCDS who according to current equivalence would head that department. CDS would be equal to Service Chiefs as per current equivalence. This was also shot down and it was decided that CDS would be Secy Dept of Military Affairs.

7. So, moving from current position where VCOAS = Def Secy, CDS who first amongst equals of Service Chiefs is now equal to their Vice Chiefs ! This is a definite degradation of the position of Service Chiefs, CDS and of Vice Chiefs. Instead of addressing the degradation we have taken it further. I fear this will have consequences in the future.

B. Why CDS in current form will not solve critical issues with defence :

1. Defence Secy mandate does not change -pls refer to A.1.

2. Capital procurement remains with Dept of Defence

3. Budgets remain with Dept of Defence

4. Severe problem areas like OFB, DPSUs, discrimination against pvt industry remain.

C. Does any good come out of it at all :

1. 80% of India's defence problem is bureaucratic control and 20% is jointness between services.

2. We have spent all our effort addressing 20% of the problem. But we have addressed it. This will lead to better jointness.


I end by saying that having seen the process closely, PM was right when he said to the bureaucracy 'Aapne mere 5 saal barbad kiye hain'. In my opinion we the bureaucracy have done it again.

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Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Peregrine » 30 Dec 2019 23:26

General Bipin Rawat becomes India's first tri-service chief - Rajat Pandit

NEW DELHI: The government on Monday night finally declared that General Bipin Rawat will take over as the country’s first-ever Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) or tri-Service chief, an announcement that came barely a few hours before he completes his three-year-tenure as the Army chief on December 31.

The government said Gen Rawat, who turns 62 in March next year, will take over as the CDS “with effect from Tuesday until further orders and extension in service”, without specifying how long his tenure will be. As per the latest amended military rules , a CDS can serve till the age of 65, while the three Service chiefs will continue to have a tenure till 62 or for three years, whichever is earlier.

Sources said the government believes Gen Rawat – who will be the country’s fourth four star general after the Army, Navy and IAF chiefs- fits the bill for the new CDS post because “he can push the boundaries to drive the desperately-needed integration among the three Services”.

“He was not a status-quoist as the Army chief. He pushed issues ranging from slashing non-operational flab to the proposed setting up of integrated battle groups for greater combat capability. As the CDS, permanent chairman of the chiefs of staff committee and head of the new department of military affairs (DMA) in the defence ministry, he will need to push the three Services even more to truly integrate in planning, procurements, logistics, doctrines and training to begin with, ” said a source.

Gen Rawat, who was appointed Army chief by the NDA government after superseding two Lt-Generals in December 2016, will now have to work towards establishing tri-Service commands to handle the critical new warfare domains of space and cyberspace as well as theatre commands. “The government, in fact, wants the first new theatre command to come up in four to five years,” said the source.

Added a senior official, “The charter for the CDS, as approved by the Union Cabinet on December 24, is quite vast. If implemented properly, it can lead to genuine integration and synergy among the three Services, who often have bitter turf wars and fight for a bigger share of the limited budget. There will, of course, be teething problems and institutional/bureaucratic resistance.”

Another major problem will be that though the CDS will decide the inter-Service prioritization of arms procurements “based on the anticipated budget” and bring about reforms to augment combat capabilities, the actual capital acquisitions and the purse strings will still be controlled by the defence secretary.

The CDS, of course, will also provide “single-point military advice” to the government as well as function as the military advisor to the PM-led Nuclear Command Authority. Though the three Service chiefs will retain full operational control over their forces, the CDS will clearly be the “first among equals” in the hierarchy.

In that role, he must be the prime driver for India to have theatre commands, which will place all Army, Navy and IAF assets and manpower under one operational commander in each geographical region to build an integrated land-air-sea war-fighting machinery geared for the wars of the future. Such commands will also be more cost-effective, given that the 1.5-million armed forces are grappling with inadequate funds for modernization in the face of the ballooning pay and pension bills.

At present, India has as many as 17 single-Service commands (Army 7, IAF 7 and Navy 3), with each force reluctant to give up its fiefdoms. The Eastern Commands of Army, IAF and Navy, for instance, are headquartered separately at Kolkata, Shillong and Visakhapatnam. India’s only theatre command is the Andaman and Nicobar Command till now, with the other tri-Service one being the Strategic Forces Command to handle the nuclear arsenal.

The US, of course, has had unified combatant commands to handle different parts of the globe for long. In early-2016, even China re-organized its 2.3-million People’s Liberation Army into five theatre commands to boost offensive capabilities and establish better command-and-control structures.

China’s Western Theatre Command handles the entire Line of Actual Control with India, from eastern Ladakh to Arunachal Pradesh. India, in contrast, has four Army three IAF commands for the “northern borders” with China.

Cheers Image

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby LakshmanPST » 30 Dec 2019 23:39

A video (bordering rant) by Major Gaurav Arya about CDS post... More or less shares the same concerns pointed out by Vidur above...
https://youtu.be/mOeSouTCxU0

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby nam » 31 Dec 2019 00:25

Atleast we have a CDS.. a first step. It required a direct order from the PM to do it. Till yesterday IAF was horrified at the fact a IA chief could overload over their assets!

I wonder what will be happen to those new AH64...

I hope the new CDS merges some of the bases in to a single entity and reduce overall expenditure of maintaining these. Specially peace locations. The money saved can be better utilized as capital budget. And prevent nonsense like AH64 for IAF and a seperate 6 for IA.

The CDS should ask for deeper involvement of IAF in the LC attrition war. They should provide in depth recon of PA position across the LC, allowing us to target in depth.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby JayS » 31 Dec 2019 01:02

Vidur wrote:As promised here are my views on CDS

A. Why it is a degradation of Service Chiefs :

1. Defence Secy is head of all Policy and Administrative matters for the entire Raksha Mantralaya. He is mandated to ensure Defence of the country. He is responsible to Parliament PAC for the budgets and finances of the defence ministry. He coordinates all the other departments. Though he is De Jure First Among Equals of all secretaries, he is De Facto the head of the defence ministry

2. He is de jure equal to VCOAS/VCAS/VCNS but is De Facto senior to them and chairs meetings when he and they are present. COAS/CNS/CAS do not attend meetings which Defence Secretary is chairing. In order of precedence Def Secy is 23 with all Secy's Govt of India and VCOAS. Service Chiefs are 12 (Below Cabinet Secy, UPSC Chairman, CEC, Supreme Court Judges and many others). De Facto Def Secy has more power than Service Chiefs.

3. This system is convoluted and is a result of decades of degradation of Armed Forces vis a vis bureaucracy both De Jure and De Facto. This has accellerated in the last few years and has severe imapct on operations and national defence.

4. Ideally Lt Gens should be equal to Secys GOI, VCOAS equal to Cabinet Secy and COAS/CNS/CAS equal to Ministers of State.

5. It was hoped that CDS will be an opportunity for comprehensive reform of the system. Comprehensive proposals on restructuring were made including equivalence on lines of A.4. These were shot down by the bureaucracy.

6. As a compromise it was agreed that a Dep of Mil Affairs would be created. It would be headed by VCDS who according to current equivalence would head that department. CDS would be equal to Service Chiefs as per current equivalence. This was also shot down and it was decided that CDS would be Secy Dept of Military Affairs.

7. So, moving from current position where VCOAS = Def Secy, CDS who first amongst equals of Service Chiefs is now equal to their Vice Chiefs ! This is a definite degradation of the position of Service Chiefs, CDS and of Vice Chiefs. Instead of addressing the degradation we have taken it further. I fear this will have consequences in the future.

B. Why CDS in current form will not solve critical issues with defence :

1. Defence Secy mandate does not change -pls refer to A.1.

2. Capital procurement remains with Dept of Defence

3. Budgets remain with Dept of Defence

4. Severe problem areas like OFB, DPSUs, discrimination against pvt industry remain.

C. Does any good come out of it at all :

1. 80% of India's defence problem is bureaucratic control and 20% is jointness between services.

2. We have spent all our effort addressing 20% of the problem. But we have addressed it. This will lead to better jointness.


I end by saying that having seen the process closely, PM was right when he said to the bureaucracy 'Aapne mere 5 saal barbad kiye hain'. In my opinion we the bureaucracy have done it again.


Thank you for that post. GIves a good perspective on the matter. My head starts spinning when I see the convolute bureaucratic system that we have.

Some questions in my mind. Pardon me if this sounds too naive. Being used to a rather flat organisation, I never really had to care about such formalities in my professional life.

1. Won't the Order of Precedence be modified to include CDS at level 12..?? Its only logical that it should.
2. What practical importance 'Order of Precedence' has in this case, as far as the functioning of CDS is concerned..? Even now, higher Order of Precedence to the Chiefs do not give them any power over the Def Secy and the later has de facto more power as you said already. CDS will still remain at level 12 (assuming the Order of Precedence will be modified to include CDS at level 12), and Def Secy will still have de facto power, despite being at level 23. Practically speaking the power equation remains the same in real terms. So how is this a degradation from existing situation..? (I understand the situation from the perspective of Order of Precedence, but I don't quite understand the practical importance of it).

3. The point 4 you made, what's the practical use of making that change..?? Would that give any real power to the Chiefs/CDS.?

Agree on B & C. I have always supported full control of Capital Acquisition programs to the respective Services and the idea of roll-on budget so thy stays with them once allocated. But frankly, I was not expecting CDS to get any control over this from the discussions prior to CDS declaration. In fact formation of DMA itself is a bonus from what I was expecting.

We are not even talking about the operational control in the hands of CDS so far.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Atmavik » 31 Dec 2019 01:05

Thanks for the clear explanation.

Vidur wrote:As promised here are my views on CDS



3. This system is convoluted and is a result of decades of degradation of Armed Forces vis a vis bureaucracy both De Jure and De Facto. This has accellerated in the last few years and has severe imapct on operations and national defence.



if this is the case when we have a supposedly nationalist gov then we are a cursed tribe.

Vidur wrote:
I end by saying that having seen the process closely, PM was right when he said to the bureaucracy 'Aapne mere 5 saal barbad kiye hain'. In my opinion we the bureaucracy have done it again.



all failures are leadership failures. I know the system is heavily rigged but we seem to be moving backward which is the most disappointing part.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 05:24

Vidur thanks for giving the bureaucratic POV.
The military POV was finally settled with this appointment. And Gen. Rawat has 3 + years to make his mark.

The civilian setup will also be fixed. Trust MAD. Especially D.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 05:30

JayS, Warrant.of precedence is very important in banks on.
For 5 years the NSA was kept out of loop by saying his rank was equivalent to MoS.
Hence the upgradation to Cabinet rank in NaMo 2.0

Vidur gave us a deep insight into inner workings.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 05:54

Vidur Are you on Telegram?

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Vidur » 31 Dec 2019 12:23

ramana wrote:Vidur thanks for giving the bureaucratic POV.
The military POV was finally settled with this appointment. And Gen. Rawat has 3 + years to make his mark.

The civilian setup will also be fixed. Trust MAD. Especially D.


My view is not the bureaucratic POV. Its is contrary to the bureaucratic POV from a 'black sheep' of the bureaucratic family :wink:

Gen Rawat is too malleable. I must not say more :wink:

Re the political leadership, we have the best we have ever had since 1947. NSA is also very good. But I submit that bureaucratic reform is the thorniest issue in the country. The biggest hold back on the aspirations of the nation.

Let me share an incident from many years ago. It was my first posting to RM and I was invited to a party at a Additional Secy's house. A Lt Gen posted to AHQ was also invited. The discussion went to degradation of armed forces. The AS said to the Lt Gen 'Yes, we have degraded you. We will take whatever privileges are left from you in 15 -20 years and your own hierarchy will help us in that'. The officer was humiliated and left the party. I later asked why such a thing was said and was told 'They are inferior to us. We must always remind them of that and keep them under our foot'.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby nandakumar » 31 Dec 2019 12:34

The removal of the last of the privileges was the abolition of OROP in 1973. It came about like this. What happened was that in the aftermath of the victory in the Bangladesh liberation war, the armed forces were basking in the glow of public adulation that the military success brought. It was at this time the army Chief, General Manekshaw granted an interview to some newspaper (Times of India, I think) wherein he let slip a tactless remark. In the course of the interview he mentioned that at the time of partition he was sought out by the Pakistani Government to remain with the Pakistan army. Remember he was a recipient of the Victoria Cross, the highest military honour in the British Army, for his exploits during the second world war. Besides he was also a member of the minority Parsi community and thus untainted by the tag of Hindu majority in the eyes of the Muslim League leadership of Pakistan. He went on to add that he declined the offer and chose to serve in the Indian Army. He could have stopped with that. But in a typical bluff military humour, he joked that perhaps the Pakistani army would have won the war in 1971 had he done so and let out a loud guffaw of laughter! This was the handle that the civil service needed to spread the calumny that the military was eyeing a greater share of power in the political scheme of things. Remember, that by then while the civilian bureaucracy had acquired all the trappings of superiority, the differential treatment in the matter of pensions was a sore sticking point. They struck back. First it started as whispers and mentions in gossip columns of newspapers that Sam Manekshaw was an insufferable vain glorious man who thought no end of himself. It was even reported that Indira Gandhi privately ticked him off and so on. It is worth bearing in mind that although Indira Gandhi decisively won against the Congress old guards and followed it up by a victory in the 1971 elections, she was still assailed by self doubts about her hold on power. It was in this background that the 1973 order to bring military pension on par with civil servants came about.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 12:41

Thanks Vidur. You are very candid. And appreciate that.
Answer to my second question?

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Vidur » 31 Dec 2019 12:42

JayS wrote:
Vidur wrote:As promised here are my views on CDS

A. Why it is a degradation of Service Chiefs :

1. Defence Secy is head of all Policy and Administrative matters for the entire Raksha Mantralaya. He is mandated to ensure Defence of the country. He is responsible to Parliament PAC for the budgets and finances of the defence ministry. He coordinates all the other departments. Though he is De Jure First Among Equals of all secretaries, he is De Facto the head of the defence ministry

2. He is de jure equal to VCOAS/VCAS/VCNS but is De Facto senior to them and chairs meetings when he and they are present. COAS/CNS/CAS do not attend meetings which Defence Secretary is chairing. In order of precedence Def Secy is 23 with all Secy's Govt of India and VCOAS. Service Chiefs are 12 (Below Cabinet Secy, UPSC Chairman, CEC, Supreme Court Judges and many others). De Facto Def Secy has more power than Service Chiefs.

3. This system is convoluted and is a result of decades of degradation of Armed Forces vis a vis bureaucracy both De Jure and De Facto. This has accellerated in the last few years and has severe imapct on operations and national defence.

4. Ideally Lt Gens should be equal to Secys GOI, VCOAS equal to Cabinet Secy and COAS/CNS/CAS equal to Ministers of State.

5. It was hoped that CDS will be an opportunity for comprehensive reform of the system. Comprehensive proposals on restructuring were made including equivalence on lines of A.4. These were shot down by the bureaucracy.

6. As a compromise it was agreed that a Dep of Mil Affairs would be created. It would be headed by VCDS who according to current equivalence would head that department. CDS would be equal to Service Chiefs as per current equivalence. This was also shot down and it was decided that CDS would be Secy Dept of Military Affairs.

7. So, moving from current position where VCOAS = Def Secy, CDS who first amongst equals of Service Chiefs is now equal to their Vice Chiefs ! This is a definite degradation of the position of Service Chiefs, CDS and of Vice Chiefs. Instead of addressing the degradation we have taken it further. I fear this will have consequences in the future.

B. Why CDS in current form will not solve critical issues with defence :

1. Defence Secy mandate does not change -pls refer to A.1.

2. Capital procurement remains with Dept of Defence

3. Budgets remain with Dept of Defence

4. Severe problem areas like OFB, DPSUs, discrimination against pvt industry remain.

C. Does any good come out of it at all :

1. 80% of India's defence problem is bureaucratic control and 20% is jointness between services.

2. We have spent all our effort addressing 20% of the problem. But we have addressed it. This will lead to better jointness.


I end by saying that having seen the process closely, PM was right when he said to the bureaucracy 'Aapne mere 5 saal barbad kiye hain'. In my opinion we the bureaucracy have done it again.


Thank you for that post. GIves a good perspective on the matter. My head starts spinning when I see the convolute bureaucratic system that we have.

Some questions in my mind. Pardon me if this sounds too naive. Being used to a rather flat organisation, I never really had to care about such formalities in my professional life.

1. Won't the Order of Precedence be modified to include CDS at level 12..?? Its only logical that it should.
2. What practical importance 'Order of Precedence' has in this case, as far as the functioning of CDS is concerned..? Even now, higher Order of Precedence to the Chiefs do not give them any power over the Def Secy and the later has de facto more power as you said already. CDS will still remain at level 12 (assuming the Order of Precedence will be modified to include CDS at level 12), and Def Secy will still have de facto power, despite being at level 23. Practically speaking the power equation remains the same in real terms. So how is this a degradation from existing situation..? (I understand the situation from the perspective of Order of Precedence, but I don't quite understand the practical importance of it).

3. The point 4 you made, what's the practical use of making that change..?? Would that give any real power to the Chiefs/CDS.?

Agree on B & C. I have always supported full control of Capital Acquisition programs to the respective Services and the idea of roll-on budget so thy stays with them once allocated. But frankly, I was not expecting CDS to get any control over this from the discussions prior to CDS declaration. In fact formation of DMA itself is a bonus from what I was expecting.

We are not even talking about the operational control in the hands of CDS so far.


Good questions. My answers

1. Yes it will. CDS will be 12. Btw that itself is too low.
2. The warrant of precedence is indeed ceremonial and you very rightly point out that Def Secy still wields more power even though he is lower. I will say that it is only in civil mil relationships where this happens because control of all aspects related to mil is with civil. By exercising that control they assert power. A Jt Secy like me can make a noting on a file okayed by VCOAS and just say 'pls explain' and the whole process stops. The whole idea of a file is that as successive layers look at it and okay you should not need to revisit issues already decided at lower levels. Like a district court cannot over rule Supreme Court. This principle is followed across the govt except in Civil Mil issues. That is why the Def Secy stands next to service chiefs at Republic Day parade. Its a message like the one conveyed in the incident I posted above.

How is this degrading from existing - it is symbolic. When the CDS who is the first among equals of all chiefs is merely the Secy of a Dept of MOD it conveys a very strong message. That is why at the minimum VCDS should have been Secy DMA. This is what was proposed after the first set of proposals were shot down.

3. The imbalance between civil / mil goes right down to a Lt's level and conveys that mil is inferior to civil services. It has several manifestations like degradation vs the MES, degradation vs CPOs, degradation vs foreign militaries during exercises, degradation of officers in eyes of their troops etc. I will not dwell too much on these issues but suffice to say that this hurting the very fabric of the functioning of armed forces and it may manifest in ways that will be quite inimical to nation. It has already started.

I repeat - we have solved 20 % of the problem (jointness) with 100% of effort. 80% of the problem persists.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Vidur » 31 Dec 2019 12:47

ramana wrote:Thanks Vidur. You are very candid. And appreciate that.
Answer to my second question?


Telegram - no I am not on telegram.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 12:49

Nandakumar, He was awarded Military Cross.
Yes that interview was widely reported.
But I submit that Mrs Gandhi was determined to reduce his profile and didn't need any guidance from minions.
Not that they wouldn't carry tales!

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 12:50

Ok. Got it.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 12:51

Got the issue. Will see how that's tackled.

It effects other areas of national security too.

Check dhak.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Abhibhushan » 31 Dec 2019 14:06

Following the excellent explanations provided by Vidur, let me descend from the top level to the working floor.

About ten years ago I had published a satirical Story about civil military interactions at the HQ level (https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/07/ ... -recorder/) will the creation of the DMA and its placement under the CDS prevent the occurrences of Situations like that in the story ?

There are doubts. Hence the wait and see attitude amongst the older veterans.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Philip » 31 Dec 2019 17:26

The point I've also made that the status of the 3 chiefs should also not be degraded.Earlier, each chief could meet the PM directly on urgent/ important issues without having to get a babu visa. The phrase " first among equals" should be honoured to thf letter. What happens if there is a disagreement between the CDS and a chief on an issue? A CDS from one service cannot be insensitive to the needs of another. The CDS should be the tip of the spearpoint prodding and galvanising the govt. into taking swift decisions and meeting the requirements of the services without much ado, especially from non-technical babus with little military knowledge .

When crises occur, he should be like Eisenhower the supreme commander in prosecuting military operations at the theatre level in conjunction with his fellow chiefs who would brief him in detail of options,pros and cons,etc.

Equally important is the total revamp of the MOD's PR dept. There should be military spokesmen for each service, with excellent communicative skills,specially trained for the purpose.We do not need wooden stick figures who are inept at answering difficult Qs from journos at press conferences.Winning the propaganda battle is as important as winning the one on the battlefield.In fact, there should be wargaming for fighting the propaganda war.
The Balakot strikes and subsequent aerial spat with the PAF who made the ( usual for the habitual ,
for lying Pakis), the most outrageous claims ( 2 pilots captured, an MKI shot down,etc.,etc.), to confuse the international community, conceal the truth from their own people and sow doubt in the minds of Indians about the success of their mllitary's operations. This is one crucial aspect that the CDS can attenc to.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby LakshmanPST » 31 Dec 2019 17:42

I see appointment of current CDS as only the first step and lot of changes will come in coming years... CDS in the initial days is probably tasked to identify all shortfalls and start doing groundwork & prepare a roadmap for future...
We will probably see the changes in next few years...
-
My guess is GOI is planning a huge reorganization of Armed Forces on the lines of USA's Armed Forces... With Service Chiefs & CDS in advisory role, and military command with Combatant Commanders after creation of 3-4 Joint Theater Commands...

Or maybe I'm only dreaming... Let's hope for the best...

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Vidur » 31 Dec 2019 17:47

Abhibhushan wrote:Following the excellent explanations provided by Vidur, let me descend from the top level to the working floor.

About ten years ago I had published a satirical Story about civil military interactions at the HQ level (https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/07/ ... -recorder/) will the creation of the DMA and its placement under the CDS prevent the occurrences of Situations like that in the story ?

There are doubts. Hence the wait and see attitude amongst the older veterans.


Thoroughly enjoyed reading that, thank you. IDAS (defence accounts service) is on a different plane altogether. In their wisdom they recently issued orders that all TA/DA claims for officers proceeding on TD/TRG will not be entertained. Caused a lot of heart burn.

There are no less than 11 AIS - All India Services or in simple terms bureaucratic services in defence. That is not often appreciated.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Vips » 01 Jan 2020 01:17

CDS' olive green uniform to represent 3 services.

General Bipin Rawat, who will take charge as the country's first Chief of Defence Staff on Wednesday, will wear a new uniform specifically designed for the newly-created post. The colour of the uniform will remain olive green but it will have all components of the three services' uniforms.

"The colour of CDS uniform will represent the parent service," said a senior Ministry of Defence official. The insignia has two crossed swords, an eagle and an anchor and above it stands an Ashok symbol. The cap of the Chief of Defence Staff will be different with badges and accomplishments to represent the three services.

In place of baton on the shoulder to signify the ranks, there will be a maroon patch with anchor, sword and eagle representing all three services.The service ribbons on the chest will remain as it is but the uniform will not have a lanyard. The Chief of Defence Staff's residence would be at 3, Kamraj Marg.

Earlier on Tuesday, General Rawat relinquished the post of Army Chief and handed over charge to General MM Naravane. Before demitting office General Rawat said: "During my three years' tenure as Chief of Army Staff, I can say, we focused more on weapon modernisation, force restructuring and non-contact warfare."

On Sunday, the Ministry of Defence amended Indian Army, Indian Navy and Indian Air Force rules. As per amended rules, CDS or tri-service chief will be able to serve till the age of 65. As per existing government rules, the three service chiefs can serve up to the age of 62 or for three years, whichever is earlier.

The Union Cabinet on December 24 approved the Chief of Defence Staff's (CDS) post and its charter and duties. The CDS will be a 4-star general who will head the new Department of Military Affairs.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ManuJ » 01 Jan 2020 02:10

My understanding is that the new department, DMA, will be under the Ministry of Defense but not under Department of Defense.
Hence this is effectively creating a parallel hierarchy in MoD with two secretaries: one of them being the CDS heading the DMA and the other being the Defense Secretary heading the Department of Defense.

While on one hand we could see this is degrading the post of CDS by equating it with the Defense Secretary, it could also be seen as cutting the wings of the all-too-powerful Secretary by putting all the three arms of the military under the CDS and keeping all matters pertaining solely to the services within ambit of the DMA.

Although capital purchases have been kept with the Department of Defense, the creation of 5-year plans for capital purchases and ensuring jointness in purchases is kept with DMA. This means that the decisions of what and when to buy would be with DMA, and the Department of Defense would effectively be implementing the plan and doing the actual negotiations etc. Hopefully, DoD would be held responsible for implementing the plan in a time-bound manner.

The new DMA will for the first time see a mix of military + civil personnel. As Vidur mentioned, the real problem in India is jointness (or lack of) between the military and civil bureaucracy, so this is a big plus.

Overall, I am happy with the development because there is at least a decision after 20 years, and it seems to be a well thought-out and deliberated one. I wouldn't be surprised if in the coming years, especially if NDA stays in power, we see a gradual increase in size and responsibilities of the new DMA.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby ramana » 01 Jan 2020 02:52

ManuJ,

Thumbs up.

That's my understanding of the objectives.

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Re: Modi announces Chief of Defence Staff

Postby Vidur » 01 Jan 2020 11:58

From the Gazette of India (order 30-12-2019) on charter of Defence Secretary

“Defence of India and every part thereof including defence policy and all such acts as as may be conducive in times of war to its prosecution and after its termination to effective demobilization,”

Defence of India and all policy matters are the domain of Def Secy and it was incorrect of Hon Prakash Jhavdekar to say that files will not have to pass through Def Secy.

Research question for members - list all countries where charter of the civilian bureaucrat (not elected minister) is 'Defence of the Country'.


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