Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

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Cybaru
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Cybaru » 13 Nov 2019 03:06

I think the MTOW will be closer to what it is for FA-18G that is approximately around 30 tons. Designing something around 25 tons and then adding bigger engines doesn't make sense.

If they ensure that AMCA can carry 8-10 tons of fuel and only 2 tons of internal bombs, the need for heavyweight category almost diminishes. It might require two AMCA to do the job of one AHeavyCA (AHCA), but we won't need two different types.

IMO, the internal fuel is going to be the key for further requirements. Even if it is a pig at take-off and reaches better/ideal operating capabilities after burning away 2-3 tons of fuel, by the time it reaches enemy airspace, that is the approach we should take. Look at the Rafale interview - All aircraft in bomb truck mode suffer.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby VikramA » 13 Nov 2019 07:40

For a f-35 b with 6 ton fuel and single engine but a powerful one the CR is 935 km clean. For f-35 a,c with 8 ton fuel CR is 1200 km. So for AMCA with 6.5 ton and twin engine we might end up with 1000 km range. GE engines are supposed to be more fuel efficient than Russian one

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby chola » 13 Nov 2019 08:15

Indranil wrote:Bhai, Indranil is just an observer. Take what he says with a huge bag of salt 8)

By the way, what a great article by Saurav. Clean, with new information and without judgements. When I was growing up, parents used to ask kids to read the newspaper to learn the language and know what is happening. Today, I would try to keep my son away from the opinion moulding that happens in the name of journalism these days.

AMCA is being designed to IAF's requirement specification based on roles that they do today. So range and capability of the aircraft is tailored to that. The support for the iterative development of AMCA is so heartening to see. AMCA Mk1 will not have supercruise, but Mk2 will. This tells you what IAF is thinking.

Saurav has let a few cats out of the bag:
1. AMCA will have DSIs. Will MWF have it too?
2. Specfications of Ghatak. A 13 ton UAV is a serious deal.
3. Navy is asking ADA for a twin-engined fighter even before Naval AMCA.


Yes, I am encouraged by the very realistic expectations and planning. I'd like to hear our plans for the Mk2 engine. That 110kN engine is supposed to be an upgrade of the F414 with about 10% more thrust or something else?

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby brar_w » 13 Nov 2019 09:26

VikramA wrote:For a f-35 b with 6 ton fuel and single engine but a powerful one the CR is 935 km clean. For f-35 a,c with 8 ton fuel CR is 1200 km. So for AMCA with 6.5 ton and twin engine we might end up with 1000 km range. GE engines are supposed to be more fuel efficient than Russian one


That’s not a very logical way of analyzing it as it does not account for design trades, mission profiles and variant specific constraints...better to focus on what the IAF demands and go from there. The end result may be better or worst than what you are comparing but it will be more realistic.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Indranil » 13 Nov 2019 10:05

Actually, it is clear that IAF is deeply onboard with the AMCA program and the AMCA design goals are kind of laying out IAF's vision of the plane.

It's primary role is air superiority. You can see that from the fineness ratio, targeted and TWR. They have traded payload and range to gain this performance.

But, I love the this idea of carrying fuel tanks in the weapons bay if required. Adds to mission flexibility. You can trade stealth with hang time and performance.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Raghunathgb » 13 Nov 2019 10:38

Indranil wrote:
But, I love the this idea of carrying fuel tanks in the weapons bay if required. Adds to mission flexibility. You can trade stealth with hang time and performance.


Does f35 have this feature or is this unique to AMCA?

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Prasad » 13 Nov 2019 11:29

Indranil wrote:Actually, it is clear that IAF is deeply onboard with the AMCA program and the AMCA design goals are kind of laying out IAF's vision of the plane.

It's primary role is air superiority. You can see that from the fineness ratio, targeted and TWR. They have traded payload and range to gain this performance.

But, I love the this idea of carrying fuel tanks in the weapons bay if required. Adds to mission flexibility. You can trade stealth with hang time and performance.

In a non-stealth configuration, you carry extra fuel in the IWB and only weapons in external hardpoints.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby sankum » 13 Nov 2019 11:42

From Sjha article
its next generation carrier-based fighter slated to be developed under the Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) programme.

I will hazard a guess that it is a iterative twin engine variant of Naval LCA mk2 with MTOW of 23 to 25T and also a variant is offerred to IAF for ground strike role.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby kit » 13 Nov 2019 14:01

When are we having the naming ceremony for all the fighter kids coming off the block ?

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby JayS » 13 Nov 2019 17:30

Please do not start a naming contest now in this thread. AMCA has time for that. Go to HTT-40 thread instead. LOL

sankum wrote:From Sjha article
its next generation carrier-based fighter slated to be developed under the Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) programme.

I will hazard a guess that it is a iterative twin engine variant of Naval LCA mk2 with MTOW of 23 to 25T and also a variant is offerred to IAF for ground strike role.


Its a replacement to existing NLCA MK2. But lets take that discussion in NLCA thread.



New PSQR for AMCA expected soon from the Article. Given PAKFA is cancelled (and Sjha uses FGFA term for AMCA :D), its only logical to assume some of the earlier FGFA requirements would have been assimilated in this recent PSQR. I expect some more changes to the current AMCA config, beyond just addition of DSI.

If only we had no limitation of engine. We are getting screwed for not investing enough in engines in last 30yrs, when we had chance. Now we will be paying a much higher price.

Ideally, we should have had a 8T MTOW AMCA, 22T clean TOW, close to 8T internal fuel, 2T internal weapons load, close to 5-6T external load and 90/120kN engines. Even with a 75/110kN engine we would be restricted to 25-26T MTOW.

But lets not forget that the bottom-line is that the IAF is fully onboard and as long as IAF is happy with AMCA, we are OK.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Karan M » 13 Nov 2019 22:08

More important than the engine driven kinematics IMHO are the stealth characteristics and avionics, plus the aero of the bird itself. If it performs decently in its Mk1 form, I can see the IAF picking up 2 more squadrons to form a core to punch up against advanced air defenses and do counter air ops.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Indranil » 14 Nov 2019 01:54

The avionics will be top notch Karan. Don't worry about that. We have good suppliers for that.

Frankly I am not too worried about the 25 ton MTOW. Everything comes with a price. 30+ tonners cost more to keep in the air.Chinese aircrafts have to fly long distances to fight the US and US has to travel to long distances to fight the Chinese. For us, the Chinese and the Pakis are next door.

I was actually thinking of a stealthier version of MWF. 8)

1. Powered by 110 kN engine
2. DSI + canted fins
3. Retractable IFR probe and stealthier IRST housing.
4. Small internal weapons bay for 4 WVR A2A missiles only. This will come at the cost of internal fuel capacity. When stealth is not required, fuel tanks will be plugged into the weapons bay.

So MWF will only be used in stealth mode in point defense roles only. Will be very effective, I will tell you. Small, fast birds are not easy to fight.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby fanne » 14 Nov 2019 02:38

you want stealth to defend, given limited money and option, If I can make stealth, I would make it for offense (no wonder, F-117 and B-2 came years before F-22). What if TSPAF decides not to launch any offense against India (because they are perhaps busy just defending, or maybe we are too strong with just non stealthy planes that it is stupid of them to cross border), then we will have a plane which is like a dulah with no barat or dulhan.
If I have stealth, even say 20 planes, there would be too many TSP targets (including planes protecting them). A point defense stealth plane doesn't make sense (also because being point defense they are too small to carry any meaningful load in the inside bomb bay. That doesn't mean on LCA we should not try LO tech - maybe spectra kind of approach will help more, stealth through active cancellation.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Indranil » 14 Nov 2019 04:42

Spectra is overrated.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby venkat_r » 14 Nov 2019 09:55

Yes would like to think of that as MK3 version around 2032 to 2035 with the same 110 KN engine, easier to maintain and possibly having all the gadgets and tech from AMCA and also potentially an unmanned, it is a bit too far for now but definitely a possibility for having 5-6 squadrons to fill up the numbers.

As it will not be the first stealth plane, ok to have the single engine fighter to make up the numbers.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby raghuk » 14 Nov 2019 19:12

Indranil wrote:Spectra is overrated.

+100

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Karan M » 14 Nov 2019 19:19

Its a high-band SPJ/ESM + MAWS/LWS tailored to the Rafale + weapons RCS. Not a magic bullet against all threats.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby nachiket » 15 Nov 2019 04:25

Karan M wrote:Its a high-band SPJ/ESM + MAWS/LWS tailored to the Rafale + weapons RCS. Not a magic bullet against all threats.

That is still far more self-protection capability than any other aircraft in IAF service at this point. Every other aircraft lacks one or more of those elements.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Karan M » 15 Nov 2019 05:04

For the IAF yes, but by worldwide standards, Spectra is just a standard suite albeit with some (possibly) nifty modes. There is nothing to indicate its some magic trick per se. But time will tell. The IAF would have classified briefings and its very plausible Spectra is particularly effective against the threats IAF will face.

The interesting part is it also has a towed decoy + low band jammer. As part of the ISEs. Again, the first is unique to it in the IAF.

The Su-30 has a similar SPJ + LB suite, but the SPJ has interface issues with the desi RWR.

The Su-30 upgrade should add a MAWS + desi SPJ to address the issue but a towed decoy, LWS and a SAP-14 equivalent/interface will still need to be there.

The Mirage 2000 will have the high-band ICMS Mk3, but its unsure whether it has the DDM MAWS.
The MiG-29s have the DARE developed Tarang Mk2 and the D-29 SPJ (high band), no MAWS, no TD.
The LCA has the Tarang Mk2 and a TBD SPJ podded for the Mk1 and likely an ELISRA one for the Mk1A to go along with the Israeli AESA.
The DARIN-2 Jaguars have the EL/L-8222 and the DARIN-3s will get the D-JAG system (still in prototyping).

We also operate some more EW kit but lets leave that aside.

The DARE DCMAWS can be mass deployed only once its pylon fit gets cleared for suitable (medium-large sized) platforms.

A towed decoy is also essential but IAF is yet to standardize on a single design.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Karan M » 15 Nov 2019 05:26

One thing is for sure, the 50 odd Mirage 2000s and the 36 odd Rafales will be heavily interoperable and will have a very high degree of cockpit automation making them ideal for strike and A2A both. Truly multirole. The main aim will be to re-qualify all the weapons we have qualified on the base Mirage 2000 H/TH on the upgrades first and foremost. The 36 Rafales A2S weapons package is yet to be detailed, apart from SCALP.

The Su-30s will also approach the same level of automation with large displays, post their upgrade and will likely play the role of the F-15E in the Israeli AF.

The weapons we are integrating on the Su-30s point to the same: SAAW (120km), NGARM (100km), SPICE-2000 (70km), Brahmos (300-450km), Astra (90+km), Nirbhay (planned), Gaurav/Gautam glide bombs (30/100km).....these confer huge flexibility above and beyond the existing Kh-29 L/T, KAB-500/1500 and the Kh-59ME, Kh-31 A/P missiles which are also in service.

Once we have the IAF ODL activated, I fully anticipate the Su-30s to act as long range mission controllers tasking strike packages &/or comprising the core of heavy duty strike packages. If we add the Russian weapons fit, i.e. new gen Kh-58s, Kh-31s, Kh-38s, Glonass bombs, RVV-BD... we are looking at a very dangerous force which can tear the heart out of the PAF today, double-quick.

The PAF in turn will likely induct PRC AESA, warts and all (they really have no other option) and the PL-15 LRAAMs as a counter. European radars are really not an option as they wont give them the integration with Chinese weapons, despite their superior performance and ECCM capability.

However, with all the above, the IAF will have breathing space to wait for the AMCA. Especially if it keeps inducting long range low-band, radars either AWACS or ground based to pick up very low RCS targets at range (beyond J-20).

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby sivab » 18 Nov 2019 11:48

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 101751.cms

How is the progress of the Light Combat Aircraft and AMCA projects?
DRDO Chief: An advanced version, the LCA MK II, is the next aero platform. LCA MK II configuration is frozen and qualitative requirements are finalised. It is our endeavor to develop the fifth-generation advanced multi-role combat aircraft (AMCA) as per the project schedule to meet the Air Force’s requirements. We should be in a position to roll out the first AMCA within five years of project approval. We are not comparing AMCA with other aircraft, but are trying to meet the specifications given to us by IAF.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby JayS » 21 Nov 2019 19:52

There. Thread cleaned up. Now please stick to the point.


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