Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4819
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby srai » 08 Feb 2021 06:35

rajsunder wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/status/1358271196387753984?s=20 ---> Report: India's 5th generation stealth fighter AMCA will be manufactured at HAL Nashik, once it is ready for production.

was this not supposed to be built by a consortium of private players and government?
Making a 5th gen would need new manufacturing techniques to attain the low panel gaps that are required for maintaining stealth, why throw good money at makeup for a old horse?

Costs a lot of resources to have a novice setup an aerospace ecosystem.

What is lower risk and works in the Indian context is the approach with LCA production where more and more components and subassemblies are outsourced to private Tier-1-3 companies. Eventually, some of these private players will go on to become their own full-fledged vertical integrator over the next decade.

Image

It’s already happening: “built by a consortium of private players and government” :wink:

Image

Avinandan
BRFite
Posts: 228
Joined: 12 Jun 2005 12:29
Location: Pune

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Avinandan » 11 Feb 2021 20:48

Noob pooch,

Question 1 :
I was comparing Air intakes
Type 1 : Backward sloping diagonal cross section - as in F22 Raptor and KFX
Type 2 : Forward sloping rectangular cross section - as in F35 and AMCA

Ignoring the DSI aspect in Type 2 examples, could gurus provide the Pros and Cons of the shaping of both the Types ?


Question 2 :
What is the merit in having crooked tail fins (leading edges) of AMCA ?

Question 3:
many moons ago, the AMCA renderings were heavily inflenced from F23 Black Widow, especially the near perfect Diamond shaped Wings. At that time brfites were very happy. The diamond shaped wing is gone now. Wanted to get the feedback on the current wing shaping of AMCA

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8293
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Feb 2021 03:27

Q1. You can't ignore the DSI. DSI intakes would always have the outer lip ahead. The opposite is true for splitter plates. Can't go into the details.
Q2. Not ideal for RCS. Must have been an aerodynamic need.
Q3. That wing is ideal for RCS, not ideal for aerodynamics. In this compromise between stealth and aerodynamics, ADA has chosen a point of balance that they are comfortable with.

Rishi_Tri
BRFite
Posts: 505
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Rishi_Tri » 12 Feb 2021 15:24

Shekhar Singh wrote:India Is Building 6th Generation Unmanned Fighter Jet



Thanks for posting this video.

Per Dr Deodhare in this interview, AMCA fabrication has already started with four parts already manufactured. Target date for AMCA to fly is 2024.

Rsatchi
BRFite
Posts: 982
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 22:03

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Rsatchi » 12 Feb 2021 16:43

^^^If that is the case is there a need for MWF
Should not all resources be pooled into AMCA for speedy trials
And if the IAF is happy with LCA Mrk1 and then jump to AMCA do we have to jump through the hoops of Mrk-II and MCF???, except for product testing and maturity of the assembly line/deliveries etc

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8207
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby nachiket » 12 Feb 2021 19:45

Rsatchi wrote:^^^If that is the case is there a need for MWF
Should not all resources be pooled into AMCA for speedy trials
And if the IAF is happy with LCA Mrk1 and then jump to AMCA do we have to jump through the hoops of Mrk-II and MCF???, except for product testing and maturity of the assembly line/deliveries etc

A program of AMCA's complexity will require at least 10-12 years after the first flight to reach a stage where full fledged induction into the IAF can begin. Look at how long it has taken the Su-57 to mature for example (despite the Russians having decades of experience in designing and building fighter jets of every possible size and class).

In the case of the MWF, the ADA is relying on the commonality with the Tejas Mk1 and Mk1A combined with the expertise they have gained during the Tejas testing and certification to reduce that timeline by quite a bit. If things go according to plan the MWF should be in serial production by 2030. It will take till the latter half of the 2030's if not more for the AMCA to reach a similar stage.


Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21231
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Philip » 15 Feb 2021 13:01

A vanilla AMCA ,LSP for at least one sqd. should be the immediate goal,if possible before 2030. While we've done well achieving considerable tech. gained with the LCA programme,we will have to import some components like the engines,etc. In order to get the aircraft in service asap,trying to reinvent the wheel all by ourselves will end up in another LCA tale of delay.Key components and tech,with deadlines for them and plan B imports/ JV if needed must be established. The goal should be to produce the fighter ready for combat asap. At the same time the UCAV RMA is taking place and we may soon see a demand for hundreds of UCAVs more urgently reqd. ( CATS) than v.expensive manned fighters. Even legacy Jags are being looked at as being drone carriers as well as transports. Deadlines for the AMCA programme must be met.

sooraj
BRFite
Posts: 1522
Joined: 06 May 2011 15:45

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby sooraj » 16 Feb 2021 11:48

Defence Decode®
@DefenceDecode
·
18h
1:1 Cockpit model of India's 5th Generation Fighter #AMCA.
#AeroIndia2021

Image

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2750
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby darshhan » 16 Feb 2021 11:49

nachiket wrote:A program of AMCA's complexity will require at least 10-12 years after the first flight to reach a stage where full fledged induction into the IAF can begin.


How does Spacex manage to induct its systems on such a short time frame. It will be worthwhile to study their efforts. These 2-3 decade programs are good for countries like US, France, Sweden etc who have no major external threats to worry about and just have to take care of their Military Industrial Complex and its various stakeholders.

In contrast it is a life and death situation for us with the Chinese wolf looking to devour us at the earliest available opportunity and it will do so if we do not pull up our socks. Our very survival is at stake. We should be testing and inducting systems extremely aggressively i.e testing on steroids. Just like Americans and Russians were doing in WW2.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4819
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby srai » 16 Feb 2021 14:28

^^^
Good luck

WW2 technology (Spitfire) vs today’s/future technology (LCA/AMCA) ... can’t compare!

Shekhar Singh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 33
Joined: 16 Sep 2018 14:55

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Shekhar Singh » 16 Feb 2021 15:36

A naive question to experts...
Can't we make stealth missiles( shaping, ram coating etc) so that weapons on external hardpoints do not increase RCS?

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4819
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby srai » 16 Feb 2021 18:17

^^^
Like this F-18 external stealthy enclosed weapons pod

Image
Image

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9633
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby brar_w » 16 Feb 2021 20:47

Shekhar Singh wrote:A naive question to experts...
Can't we make stealth missiles( shaping, ram coating etc) so that weapons on external hardpoints do not increase RCS?


Making something Low observable involves shaping, and materials and being able to integrate with the overall design so that any design decision you make either builds on, or does no harm to decisions taken elsewhere. So hanging a stealthy missile off of a stealthy aircraft won't mean that it will retain its LO characteristics to the same degree as if it didn't have a weapon in the first place. The individual items may be stealthy, but what matters is how the missile, pylon and the aircraft perform when attached so it is those interactions that you have to measure not the individual signatures of each components independently. The enclosed pod that Srai posted helps with that in that you design the pod for best (possible) RCS when it is coupled with the aircraft shape and carriage. The weapons inside don't need modifications. But even then you are constantly trading one thing for another (the pod still has to factor payload, drag, maintainability, weapon loading/unloading requirements etc and so just can't be a pure RCS play).

Your clean 5GFA or 6GFA will be the best RCS you can get with that aircraft. When you start hanging stuff externally, even if it is via these pod like applications you deviate from what was originally designed though you can most certainly do your best to make those impacts as minimal as possible. In the end it all comes down to what the requirements are, and what you need for specific missions assuming that we are talking about multi-role/mission aircraft. On the F-35 for example, the Marines only required a gun for Close Air Support, which doesn't need stealth so they built it into a pod instead. Even though the pod does have shaping and materials for signature management (it is a multi-mission pod so has future applications beyond a gun) it will, in the net, adversely impact the aircraft's overall signature so it is a question of for what missions is this degradation acceptable and for what it is not. Same for the new external pylon they developed for the AIM-9X on the F-35. It uses shaping and materials but only mitigates the RCS degradation and not prevent it, but since AIM-9 on the F-35 is a "transition" capability, it is consider an acceptable interim solution. So these things are operator driven with missions in mind. You can definitely do things externally to reduce impact but you will never be as capable as you are when you are clean.

Shekhar Singh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 33
Joined: 16 Sep 2018 14:55

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Shekhar Singh » 16 Feb 2021 23:49

Thanks a lot. Now many things are clear.

brar_w wrote:
Shekhar Singh wrote:A naive question to experts...
Can't we make stealth missiles( shaping, ram coating etc) so that weapons on external hardpoints do not increase RCS?

Making something Low observable involves shaping.....

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7575
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Prasad » 22 Feb 2021 13:48

A very short chat with Dr Ghosh, PD AMCA


souravB
BRFite
Posts: 584
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby souravB » 23 Feb 2021 05:44

Prasad wrote:A very short chat with Dr Ghosh, PD AMCA

Prasad, as usual, great interview.
Dr. Ghosh reminded me of the quintessential Bengali uncle who'd become defensive while keeping a secret. I started laughing when he was stopping himself from mentioning Radar absorbing composites :rotfl:
So all in all we can infer
  • DAS is coming but whether it is MWIR or LWIR to be seen
  • Radar absorbant skin to reduce maintainance(meta material?)
  • IVHM would take care of the monitoring part (logistics part traditional?)
  • 4 BVRAAMs in IWB
am I missing anything else?

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 10635
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Rakesh » 23 Feb 2021 23:03

Prasad wrote:A very short chat with Dr Ghosh, PD AMCA

you rock boss! added to page 1

rajsunder
BRFite
Posts: 688
Joined: 01 Jul 2006 02:38
Location: MASA Land

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby rajsunder » 25 Feb 2021 12:15

I was looking at the videos made by #AKM on the LCA Manufacturing at HAL series, the ones that he released before Aero India 2021. Saw some of the screw jacks where they has rods with sharp edges protruding from the screw jacks. I do not think that we can use the same manufacturing techniques for making AMCA. I am saying this because to build AMCA to the fault tolerances that are required for stealth planes would need a new generation of assembly techniques.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5422
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Postby Kartik » 26 Feb 2021 16:43



2 new nuggets from this interview with Dr Girish Deodhare

1- The cockpit will be coated with radar absorbent material (indium tin oxide?) which has been developed within India.

2- The Internal Weapons Bay (IWB) has already been realised and the technology proven at R&D Engineers, Pune. Dr Deodhare mentions this at 3:05 in the interview.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bart S, Rakesh and 61 guests