Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

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Ganesh_S
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Ganesh_S »

Aditya_V wrote:And like F-22, in some missions fuel tanks, Cruise missile - the pylons will brandom e dropped after release of weapon fuel to retain stealth
Atleast not on our western front. If standoffs had to be launched why not from a land based based platform? Or a non stealth platform?. Are we assuming these kind of a2g missions to be burdened on a stealth platform. Not effective imo. One wouldn't compromise the effectiveness of stealth platform on these grounds. Stealth will not be multirole it will be specific in nature in current times and India specific
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Ganesh_S »

Aditya_V wrote:And like F-22, in some missions fuel tanks, Cruise missile - the pylons will be dropped after release of weapon fuel to retain stealth
When one fights in his neighborhood especially in the times of standoff, stealth would be a joke for ground attack. For Americans yes f22 s could launch from American soil all the way to airan, drop its weapon and external fuel tanks and fight its way back.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by wig »

Do read the complete article. Excerpts below.

How India finalised the design for its indigenous stealth fighter jet
https://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/20 ... r-jet.html
24 April 2022
A single-seater, twin-engine fighter, the AMCA will be 17.6m long, with a wingspan of 11.13m and a maximum takeoff weight of 25 tonnes. While the AMCA Mark-1 will be a fifth-generation fighter, the Mark-2 is likely to be sixth-generation. The Mark-2 will also have indigenously manufactured engines instead of the Mark-1’s US made engines (F414 from GE Aviation). Deodhare said that several countries had expressed interest in collaborating on engine development for the Mark-2.

The project’s initial development cost is estimated to be close to Rs15,000 crore. Experts estimate that the US’s fifth-generation stealth fighters—the F-22 Raptor and the F-35 Lightning II—would have cost around Rs1,86,150 crore and Rs1,06,875 crore, respectively, from the design to development stage. Both were developed by Lockheed Martin. The F-22, the first fifth-generation fighter, was developed in 20 years (1983-2003) and the F-35 in 16 years (1995-2011). As things stand, the first AMCA might roll out by around 2026. It was in 2005, when the F-22 was launched, that the ADA formed a small study group to understand the capabilities of a fifth-generation fighter.

Ashish Kumar Ghosh Project director, AMCA BTech (aeronautics engineering), IIT Kharagpur; MTech and PhD, IISc Bangalore Joined the ADA in 1987 From West Bengal | Bhanu Prakash ChandraAshish Kumar Ghosh Project director, AMCA BTech (aeronautics engineering), IIT Kharagpur; MTech and PhD, IISc Bangalore Joined the ADA in 1987 From West Bengal | Bhanu Prakash Chandra
The core group to develop the stealth fighter was formed in 2009 with five defence scientists—Ashish Kumar Ghosh, Krishna Rajendra Neeli, M.B. Angadi, A.K. Vinayagam and Fairoza Naushad. The then deputy chief of the Indian Air Force, N.A.K. Browne, gave them the operational requirements of the IAF. The confidence to attempt the design of a stealth aircraft came from the experience the ADA had gained while designing the LCA Tejas.

Ghosh, also known as “Mr AMCA Man”, is the project director. Neeli, the group director, liaises with the ministry of defence and other stakeholders. Vinayagam handles system engineering, Angadi is in charge of configuration (giving shape to the aircraft, and arranging systems and equipment inside), while Fairoza is responsible for avionics.

When the ADA’s attempt began in earnest in 2009, the F-22 was the only fifth-generation stealth fighter in service. It was highly manoeuvrable and could achieve supersonic cruise speeds (at Mach 1.8) without the use of afterburners. “From its technology to capability and its look, a feasibility study was initiated under me with a budget of 090 crore,” said Ghosh. He said that from the outset, the team has been interacting with IAF officers to understand the requirements. He added that the LCA programme had taught the ADA that the development of technologies had to start at the very beginning. “So, we started developing the technologies even while the feasibility study was on,” he said.

The AMCA team’s initial plan was for an all-weather, swing-role fighter jet capable of aerial fights, ground strikes, enemy air defence suppression and electronic warfare. After four years, in 2013, the first feasible configuration was worked out, which was accepted by the IAF.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ramana »

Very good status report.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ramana »

Wig, How much money was spent on the Russian program as IAF contribution?

The young lady will be the future Tessy Thomas of aeronautics.

Amazing ability to join the agency in 2005 and be selected to head the AMCA avionics in 2009.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Manish_Sharma »

ramana wrote:Wig, How much money was spent on the Russian program as IAF contribution?

The young lady will be the future Tessy Thomas of aeronautics.

Amazing ability to join the agency in 2005 and be selected to head the AMCA avionics in 2009.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr
Nearly Rs 1500 crore spent on preliminary design of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft project: Government
SECTIONS

Date: July 11, 2018
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by kit »

ramana wrote:Wig, How much money was spent on the Russian program as IAF contribution?

The young lady will be the future Tessy Thomas of aeronautics.

Amazing ability to join the agency in 2005 and be selected to head the AMCA avionics in 2009.
i think more than 295 million .. and net result 0

To avoid Sukhoi 'mistake', India to go for Russian 5th-generation fighter only on complete-tech transfer pact
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 551801.cms
11 July 2018
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Anujan »

Big sticking point was that Russies did not allow (or provide software code/blue prints) for upgrading the Russian FGFA domestically in India. Clever way of ensuring future fund flows to Mother Russia.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

Didn't even embed Indian test pilots or engineers into the program and testing so probably a good thing to walk out and wait for it to be mature and fielded in numbers closer to 2030 and use as a backup 5GFA.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ramana »

In 2007, the amount was $295 million. And nothing came out of it. No demotions or carrier mishaps in IAF.

Still the same old story and import games.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by VickyAvinash »

ramana wrote: And nothing came out of it.

Still the same old story and import games.
Import lobbies are deeply entrenched in Indian Armed forces. Decades of systemic rot cannot be set right quickly. No Government can afford to stir the pot too fast or too vigorously. It has to be set right in a slow but steady steps. We have come far and will see things speed up only if this Government gets another term. Till then, you win some and lose some.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Its not just the $295 Million. We wasted 5 valuable years dilly-dallying about FGFA. If we had been laser focused on our own AMCA, we would have had a prototype flying today instead of 2026!
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... a3r-sPK-qw ---> This neat graphic shows the capabilities of AMCA. Seems quite similar to the heavier-weight stealth fighters. Is there any advantage of being in the heavy-weight category that AMCA is losing out on?

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by SinghS »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... a3r-sPK-qw ---> This neat graphic shows the capabilities of AMCA. Seems quite similar to the heavier-weight stealth fighters. Is there any advantage of being in the heavy-weight category that AMCA is losing out on?
Constrained Internal weapon carrying volume and weight capacity. Not even half of Tejas Mk-1.
Last edited by SinghS on 28 Apr 2022 21:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

Comments like that make no sense. How much payload can th Tejas MK1 carry in its internal bays? What’s it range and Payload in a high-low-low profile? This is a completely different mission. If it were executing the Tejas missions it would sling external payload and fuel and would out range and out carry it. Just look at how much the F-35 can carry in that configuration via-a-via the two types it is replacing (F-16 and F-18).
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

SinghS wrote:Constrained Internal weapon carrying volume and weight capacity.
First attempt Sirjee. Follow on variants (AMCA Mk2) will have increased internal capacity + increased internal weapon volume and hopefully a certified indigenous 110kN turbofan.

First attempt (AMCA Mk1) will be to prove the concepts introduced i.e. VLO, sensors, radar, internal weapon volume, etc.

Just like how the Tejas Mk2 will be better than the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by kit »

The KF 21 ROADMAP would be interesting in this context of iterative improvements

https://i0.wp.com/www.aviacionline.com/ ... .jpg?ssl=1

Image
Last edited by kit on 28 Apr 2022 21:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

kit wrote:The KF 21 ROADMAP would be interesting in this context of iterative improvements
Good graphic. Thank You.

Please provide link to image.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by SinghS »

brar_w wrote:Comments like that make no sense. How much payload can th Tejas MK1 carry in its internal bays? What’s it range and Payload in a high-low-low profile? This is a completely different mission. If it were executing the Tejas missions it would sling external payload and fuel and would out range and out carry it. Just look at how much the F-35 can carry in that configuration via-a-via the two types it is replacing (F-16 and F-18).
With due respect, it just my opinion. Yet I believe that it is not a question of mission profile, but a matter of being able to adept to changing mission situations. In future warfare mission profile may become redundant and swing role may take an entirely new meaning. A mission kill may happen easily for a stealth asset and it may require bigger and longer legged firepower to remain relevant over its lifespan.

One set of strategists theorize that as stealth reduces range of engagement, you don't need bigger and longer AAM.

On the other hand, advances are happening in the Radar tech and sensor networking between assets at a rapid pace. So it is very much possible that in future detection of stealth may happen at same distances as it happens today for LCA. AAM too are going to get bigger and better with midcourse guidance with AI. One can expect AAM of 300-400 km range being guided midcourse by a stealth drone and threatening AMCA.

This would dictate that the stealth would require to carry a much longer range AAM. Therefore some margin for expansion of internal weapon space should be ideally planned for.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by SinghS »

Rakesh wrote:
SinghS wrote:Constrained Internal weapon carrying volume and weight capacity.
First attempt Sirjee. Follow on variants (AMCA Mk2) will have increased internal capacity + increased internal weapon volume and hopefully a certified indigenous 110kN turbofan.
Even in this avatar with GE-414 AMCA will be a very interesting bird to watch. The most exciting areas to watch for are Stealth cross section achieved, kind of stealth materials used, how is the maintainability of stealth, super-cruise performance, level of sensor fusion achieved and situational awareness for the pilot and how does its IRST compares to DAS. IRST and DAS would be everywhere in the airspace in future and would be of longer range, so the level of IR suppression is also an area worth watching.

Its an entirely new era and a brave new world for India.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Avinandan »

Rakesh wrote:Follow on variants (AMCA Mk2) will have increased internal capacity + increased internal weapon volume and hopefully a certified indigenous 110kN turbofan.
Rakesh Saar,
Any reference w.r.t increased internal weapon ?

I assumed the basic structure and empennage will remain the same for both AMCA Mk1 and Mk2, Just the 110 to 125 KT engine will be swapped for super cruise and better MTOW.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

SinghS wrote: Yet I believe that it is not a question of mission profile, but a matter of being able to adept to changing mission situations.
No matter which way you look at it, it’s actually way more flexible then the Tejas or another fourth gen platform from that stand point. It can be configured for penetrating attack or counter air and as things change tactically, execute another mission with a larger payload or stand off weapons and fuel carried external while still retaining the payload in its internal bays. It’s a lot more flexible in they sense.
A mission kill may happen easily for a stealth asset and it may require bigger and longer legged firepower to remain relevant over its lifespan.
Which is why you have more payload possibilities than previous gen aircraft. You do realize they the IWB is dictated by thermal, size and propulsion constraints but the larger internally carried fuel actually allows a greater overall payload because of additional hardpoints available for weapons.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Barath »

kit wrote:The KF 21 ROADMAP would be interesting in this context of iterative improvements...
https://i0.wp.com/www.aviacionline.com/ ... .jpg?ssl=1
AFAIK, these are vendor proposals which have not got official sanction yet.

The real block 1 is A2A and real block 2 is A2G with increased precision weapons listed
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... us-fighter

Compare this to Tejas, which started out of the gate with A2A and A2G, and then went for a round of additional weapons (+ radar) integration and what seems like incremental weapons integration now (eg JDAM etc).

There's no info to say how AMCA blocks would evolve, but given the small numbers planned, I would assume that they might follow the LCA pattern of coming up with A2A and A2G weapons from the outset...
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

I doubt if adequate lessons have been learnt from the "smallest & lightest" episode. If I look at AMCA, I see the same being repeated.

Instead of a larger/heavy category fighter, we have opted for a medium fighter, with very limited internal weapons bay storage. I don't know if the powerplant was an issue or something else, but I can't understand why we didn't go for an F-22 or J-20 sized fighter
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by kit »

Prem Kumar wrote:I doubt if adequate lessons have been learnt from the "smallest & lightest" episode. If I look at AMCA, I see the same being repeated.

Instead of a larger/heavy category fighter, we have opted for a medium fighter, with very limited internal weapons bay storage. I don't know if the powerplant was an issue or something else, but I can't understand why we didn't go for an F-22 or J-20 sized fighter
Its AMCA not Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft (AHCA), not a direct replacement for Su-30 class fighter bombers.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Does that mean that the SU30 will be retired without any replacement?

Or there will be a follow up program for its replacement.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »

Pratyush wrote:Does that mean that the SU30 will be retired without any replacement?

Or there will be a follow up program for its replacement.
I guess we will know the answer to this question post 2030...
-
Based on the numbers projected for AMCA and the timelines, AMCA will take us to 42 squadrons exactly by the time Su30s start to retire... That is sometime in mid-2040s...
So, IAF will probably reevaluate their squadron composition and decide about Su30 replacement sometime in late 2020s... If there is no major change in Air warfare, I foresee a HCA program started at ARDE after Tejas Mk2 enters production in 2026...
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

More improved and larger variants of AMCA will follow the first pair of AMCA Mk1 units. The second batch (AMCA Mk2) will have indigenous turbofans, longer range precision strike weaponry, more powerful sensors and radar. All of this will negate a direct one to one replacement of the Su-30MKI squadrons. The internal fuel capacity of the AMCA Mk2 will also be greater.

In addition to the above, drone programs (like CATS and others) will negate manned strike into enemy territory. What we currently know as air warfare, will be different 2 to 3 decades from now.

The IAF will not hit 42 manned squadrons at any point. It will hover somewhere in the 30s.

In the short term though, the IAF will (no longer a matter of choice, but that of necessity) transition a good chunk of the Rambha's current kit into Indian. Expect scaled up Uttam AESA, Indian precision guided weaponry, Astra Mk2 and SFDR, MAWS and EW from one of the DRDO labs, etc.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Avinandan wrote:Rakesh Saar,
Any reference w.r.t increased internal weapon ?

I assumed the basic structure and empennage will remain the same for both AMCA Mk1 and Mk2, Just the 110 to 125 KT engine will be swapped for super cruise and better MTOW.
My sincere apologies for not replying to your post earlier.

To answer your question, I have no reference...but just my inference based on the Tejas Mk1/Mk1A to Tejas Mk2 transition.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/154 ... sforL9AmKA ---> BEL joins ADA and ADE to develop next-generation Digital Flight Control Computers (DFCC) for the AMCA program. Picture Credits - Kunal Biswas

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/154 ... sforL9AmKA ---> BEL joins ADA and ADE to develop next-generation Digital Flight Control Computers (DFCC) for the AMCA program. Picture Credits - Kunal Biswas
gurus, is this a way to bring production n scaleup considerations right at the design/dev stage?
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Prasad »

BEL does the hardware design for the DFCC. Not just the electronics but the housing also. They've done it for the LCA too. So it is a natural progression that Mk2 and AMCA and TEDBF also work this way.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Dilbu »

French Safran to set-up engine MRO in India, offers to partner AMCA project
French aircraft engine major Safran is all set to announce a maintenance repair and overhaul (MRO) facility for leading edge aviation propulsion (LEAP) commercial aircraft engines in India as part of its offset commitments. The MRO facility, said to be based either in Hyderabad or Bengaluru, will apparently be announced tomorrow when Safran CEO Olivier Andres meets Indian Civil Aviation Minister Jyotiraditya Scindia.

The MRO state-of-the-art facility will be set up through a 100 per cent Indian subsidiary route that will not only service some 330 engines used by Indian commercial carriers but also Safran-GE joint venture engines from other countries in South Asia, West Asia, and Africa. For the facility, SAFRAN is bringing in USD 150 million foreign direct investment with plans of moving into MRO of military engines used in Indian Air Force Rafale and Mirage 2000 fighters in the future to push the “Atmanirbhar Bharat” initiative. The French company is the supplier of M88 engines for IAF’s recently acquired 26 Rafale multi-role fighters and is also the number one helicopter engine supplier to India.

Apart from the MRO facility, the French company has also submitted a proposal to the Indian government to co-develop with DRDO’s Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) a new state-of-the-art 110 kilo newton thrust engine for India’s futuristic advanced medium combat aircraft twin-engine AMCA fighter project. The cost per engine for 400 engines will work out to 10-12 million euros, which is what we pay for engines today, said a defence expert. That will be for 400 engines, which is what we would need for twin engine AMCAs if we have 6-7 squadrons. Will probably need more, the expert added.
The Safran offer is not subject to International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), a US regulatory regime to restrict and control the export of defence and military-related technologies to safeguard US national security and further US foreign policy objectives. This means that the proposed Safran-GTRE joint venture will be exporting military engines to third countries without being subjected to restrictive regimes. The French company believes that the new 110 KN engine could be certified by 2035, provided the co-development process gets a green signal this year. The full cost of co-development of the 110 KN engine will be around five to six billion euros.

While the DRDO is also looking at GE-414 engine to power the AMCA project as an alternative, the Safran offer contains performance guarantee, and transfer all required technology for design, development, production and support besides creating a robust industrial aero-engine ecosystem in India.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

To the left of Safran's CEO (Olivier Andries) is Safran is Alexandre Ziegler, the Senior Executive Vice President, International and Public Affairs of Safran. Mr Ziegler served as the former French Ambassador to India.

https://twitter.com/ajaynewsman/status/ ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh invites engine maker Safran CEO Olivier Andries to join in co-development & co-production. Background: Safran and India are in talks to make a new 110Kn engine.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... qHoGxHa6Cw ---> HAL has launched the ‘Metal Cutting for Titanium Bulkhead of the 5th generation fighter Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA)’ as part of technology development at Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Nashik.

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/154 ... qHoGxHa6Cw ---> HAL CMD, Mr R Madhavan launched the ‘Metal Cutting for Titanium Bulkhead of AMCA aircraft’ as part of technology development at Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Nashik in the presence of Dr. A K Ghosh, PD(AMCA) ADA, senior officers from DMRL, ADA and other Government agencies.

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... qHoGxHa6Cw ---> Bulkheads are structural members in the aircraft airframe typically built using Titanium and Aluminium alloys. Titanium alloys for AMCA airframe are produced by @MidhaniLtd.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... qHoGxHa6Cw ---> Titanium bulkheads of fighter aircraft are typically forged from a single piece of alloy blanks. India currently doesn't have a forge press of the capacity required to do so. Image: ALCOA

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Hmmm, things just got real!

Yippee.

First flight by this time in 2024?

Entry into service by 2029?
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

First flight will be a bit later than 2024.

Entry into service (FOC) will happen only in the 2030s.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by SidSoma »

https://twitter.com/HTT40PRASHANT/statu ... 6757106688

The latest Wind tunnel model of AMCA... What a beauty!!

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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Absolutely gorgeous. Wow.
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