Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
SRajesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2061
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 22:03

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by SRajesh »

https://youtu.be/bYjwgDdaMYg
Is this true???
Has such a JV formed!
Or this is all 'hot wind'! and time-pass videos for the Youtube
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Rsatchi wrote:https://youtu.be/bYjwgDdaMYg
Is this true???
Has such a JV formed!
Or this is all 'hot wind'! and time-pass videos for the Youtube

A lot of defence decode videos are hot air. As they can never be coroborated.

Do we know the weight class of the tempest??

Is it planed to be in the AMCA class or in the Su 57 class?
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

Tempest would most certainly be in the AMCA size/weight. I would say +/- 5% of the F-35A's specifications. One of the main drivers for the design is to be able to export it and sustain UK, Italian and Swedish industrial base over and above the organic demand within these three nations. To do this, they can't really make it any bigger than that. In fact, it may end up being slightly smaller to keep procurement costs reasonable.
sankum
BRFite
Posts: 1150
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by sankum »

Tempest is to be powered by adaptive cycle engine.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

sankum wrote:Tempest is to be powered by adaptive cycle engine.
Everything in the future will be powered by adaptive engines. Problem is that no substantial contracts have yet been awarded to Rolls Royce so they are probably a good 15 years or more away from fielding something like that in an operational capacity. US OEMs have about a decade of S&T/R&D (with core testing around 2011 for GEs earlier work) contracts behind them and they too are probably a solid decade from fielding these engines operationally.
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5350
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Cain Marko »

Pratyush wrote:
Rsatchi wrote:https://youtu.be/bYjwgDdaMYg
Is this true???
Has such a JV formed!
Or this is all 'hot wind'! and time-pass videos for the Youtube

A lot of defence decode videos are hot air. As they can never be coroborated.

Do we know the weight class of the tempest??

Is it planed to be in the AMCA class or in the Su 57 class?
I'm not sure this is hot air. RRs India chief, Louise danaghey is on record with nitin gokhake saying as much.
sankum
BRFite
Posts: 1150
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by sankum »

I think Tejas mk2 will be designed to accept 110 kn engine in mid life upgrade or as engine is available.
Same for TEDBF.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

This is from Group Captain HV Thakur (retd), HAL test pilot...

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12987 ... 13536?s=20 ---> Stole it from the pilot 8)

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/129 ... 57061?s=20 ---> With India's AMCA fifth generation fighter program all set to move forward as a historic public-private corporate venture, we've revived a rare interview the program's director gave to us last year.

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 850
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

India likely to produce next generation fighter jets in a private sector-led joint venture

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst
KSingh
BRFite
Posts: 504
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by KSingh »

ashishvikas wrote:India likely to produce next generation fighter jets in a private sector-led joint venture

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst
private partner will have a majority stake in the JV and will be given the option to utilise existing @HALHQBLR /govt facilities

An incredibly attractive offer for the major private entities


Some more interesting tidbits-

- as seen in case of LUH, prototypes will be made at @HALHQBLR BLR but production will take place in dedicated facilities
- HAL is offering their plant in Nasik where they are currently producing Su-30MKI
-HAL and IAF confirm AMCA will be 5.5gen
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

KSingh wrote: -HAL and IAF confirm AMCA will be 5.5gen
Has either mentioned what specific attributes make it half a generation ahead of the current crop of 5th generation fighter aircraft?
ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 850
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

KSingh wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:India likely to produce next generation fighter jets in a private sector-led joint venture

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst
private partner will have a majority stake in the JV and will be given the option to utilise existing @HALHQBLR /govt facilities

An incredibly attractive offer for the major private entities


Some more interesting tidbits-

- as seen in case of LUH, prototypes will be made at @HALHQBLR BLR but production will take place in dedicated facilities
- HAL is offering their plant in Nasik where they are currently producing Su-30MKI
-HAL and IAF confirm AMCA will be 5.5gen
Biggest question would be which Private Player have 2500Cr to invest in AMCA ?
SRajesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2061
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 22:03

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by SRajesh »

^^^Only Mota-Bhai under the present conditions!!
Anshuman.Kumar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 58
Joined: 08 Sep 2016 20:16

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Anshuman.Kumar »

Tatas can easily.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Pratyush »

A crazy idea might be for the Pvt sector company to raise funds from the capital markets with an assurance that the funds invested in developing such a plane can be recovered by production of the jet for the IAF and any potential export customer.

Let's see if this can work.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

Pratyush wrote:A crazy idea might be for the Pvt sector company to raise funds from the capital markets with an assurance that the funds invested in developing such a plane can be recovered by production of the jet for the IAF and any potential export customer.

Let's see if this can work.
This very rarely (if ever) works for the large western defense contractors who have access to many diverse sources of funding and who have a longer list of completed projects. It works better when you are self funding (by raising capital or contributing IR&D) a percentage of a project that is fully supported (financially) and backed by the primary customer. Even then this is not always smooth from a shareholder perspective. When Lockheed, and Northrop were taking charges after charges for their IR&D investment into the ATF, things got pretty tricky with shareholders back in the late 1980's and early 90s. Even Dassault, a monopoly player in its primary market, only took on a fraction of the Rafale development cost, with the remaining guaranteed by the French MOD on a cost-sharing basis. HAL being a state enterprise, should find funding from the GOI as the cheapest source of funding so by going into the financial markets, they only make the project more expensive, especially so if this is the first time they are doing it (markets will want terms that fully account for their financial risk).

Commercial markets also, historically, don't respond well to military system risks. Product success is contingent on the primary operator buying it, and that is contingent on a whole host of unrelated national security and political assumptions. Additionally, the operator buy-in is only guaranteed if the product meets desired specifications or if the national security needs do not fundamentally change over the time-frame. When this risk changes the market size does not fluctuate quite like a commercial product or venture. So if the product misses key KPPs the customer may not buy it at all or may force it into a multi-year remedial development. Commercial investors will have to price all this risk and uncertainty in and then layer on the usually long timelines of designing and fielding a 5GFA which is usually measured in the 15-20 year horizon. Finally, the challenge of "privately financing" a very expensive military system is that you can run into difficulties passing on the added cost (of financing) to the buyer as usually, Mil hardware comes with a cost plus contract where margins are usually capped.
Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5882
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Dileep »

There is behind the scenes campaign to harness all the 'pvt entities that can contribute something' into the push to build a strong MIC. My KB seeing a lot of 'feelers' coming our way.

This is NOT directly driven by govt, or anything organized as I can see. The business community is seeing the developing opportunity and responding organically. Which is excellent. Free Capitalism is always better for business growth than command economy.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5383
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Manish_P »

That would work best in a really free market, wherein the Customer is free to buy the product he wants, with his money. Here the Customer (the services) have to beg and get permission from their political masters with the babus controlling the purse strings, and more importantly, time.

Still one can hope...
KSingh
BRFite
Posts: 504
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by KSingh »

ashishvikas wrote:
KSingh wrote: private partner will have a majority stake in the JV and will be given the option to utilise existing @HALHQBLR /govt facilities

An incredibly attractive offer for the major private entities


Some more interesting tidbits-

- as seen in case of LUH, prototypes will be made at @HALHQBLR BLR but production will take place in dedicated facilities
- HAL is offering their plant in Nasik where they are currently producing Su-30MKI
-HAL and IAF confirm AMCA will be 5.5gen
Biggest question would be which Private Player have 2500Cr to invest in AMCA ?
Seriously? L&T, TATA, Kaylani, Mahindra just time name a few


The private sector has been begging to be allowed to take the next step (tier 1 and lead integrators), here the GoI has made perhaps the most attractive model I could imagine- ability to use existing govt facilities AND have a controlling stake in the JV


They’ll also have an assured order commitment so the risk to them is low and the gains abundantly clear


Now it’s time for them to put their money where their mouths are, no more snide remarks at FCCI conferences or on social media. If the private sector won’t step up and cease this opportunity then there really is no hope for India building an MIC but I am very confident there will be a clamour to take part in this project and I wouldn’t be surprised to see some unusual names putting their name in the ring too Although I would put my money on L&T
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Vips »

Rsatchi wrote:^^^Only Mota-Bhai under the present conditions!!
Mukesh Ambani is too shrewd a businessmen to loose such an opportunity. Imagine getting a ready made factory(HAL) and Trained workforce(HAL) and an assured market (IAF will buy all the AMCA's we can produce) for investing just 2,500 Crores. This is chump change for Reliance Industries.

With TATA, L&T, Bharat Forge, Mahindra, Godrej, Hinduja (Ashok Leyland) we made a beginning for Private Sector play in the defence space. Now with the entry of Adani's (already happened) and Mukesh Ambani (hopefully) - their deep pockets and most important their hunger for growth and tendency to dominate any field that they enter India just might have a very dynamic MIC soon.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by nam »

3k crores is around 400M! Hardly a massive amount for some of the private companies with multi billion revenue.

They could take bank loan, if required when it is confirmed order.

TASL may even have majority of the infra. They are already plan to build a transport from nothing.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by nam »

Dileep wrote:There is behind the scenes campaign to harness all the 'pvt entities that can contribute something' into the push to build a strong MIC. My KB seeing a lot of 'feelers' coming our way.

This is NOT directly driven by govt, or anything organized as I can see. The business community is seeing the developing opportunity and responding organically. Which is excellent. Free Capitalism is always better for business growth than command economy.
My personal opinion is that other than jet engine we now have most of tech required for indian MIC. The biggest stumbling block is not tech, but MOD obsession with protecting its DPSU empire. Give orders to private sector and you will see a MIC within few years.

Even for jet engine baba kalyani suggested GOI should form a joint venture with 6-7 major Indian private companies and we will have financial muscle and skills for the engine.

It is a simple case. Orders to the private companies.
SRajesh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2061
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 22:03

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by SRajesh »

nam wrote:
Dileep wrote:There is behind the scenes campaign to harness all the 'pvt entities that can contribute something' into the push to build a strong MIC. The biggest stumbling block is not tech, but MOD obsession with protecting its DPSU empire.

It is a simple case. Orders to the private companies.
Totally agree that between the baboons and labour unions the dream of MIC is being kept out of reach perpetually :roll:
Add to this the political parties directly or indirectly controlling the unions and the ‘phoren maal agint’s’ u have strong cabal which won’t accept any change
Modiji needs to be the proverbial Hercules cleaning the Augean Stables :rotfl:
Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5882
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Dileep »

Remember that the corporate entities have a lot more 'diverse ammunition' (no pun) to get things done at the NBF (Neta-Babu-Fauji) level compared to DPSUs. Actually, better than the ruski and yehudi 'ammunition' youknow.
souravB
BRFite
Posts: 630
Joined: 07 Jun 2018 13:52

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by souravB »

Wasn't there an EoI issued approx 2 years ago from ADA for private entities interested in forming a consortium along with the manufacture of full scale model? AFAIK there was also a rumor/casually issued statement of receiving good response from ADA chief in an interview.
kvraghav
BRFite
Posts: 1136
Joined: 17 Apr 2008 11:47
Location: Some where near the equator

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by kvraghav »

All said and done, which corporate entity will work on no cost, no commitment basis? Mukesh Ambani companies never invested in reasearch and never will. They are just service companies.
Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 457
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Bharadwaj »

A slide from a recent presentation showing amca with a yf23 like tail is doing the rounds.
basant
BRFite
Posts: 889
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by basant »

A must read article by Crd KP Sanjeev Kumar (R).
...
Notable features that make the AMCA a 5th generation fighter are summarised below:
  1. 5th generation twin-engine multirole fighter with “some 6th-gen technologies” (as wished by ACM Bhadauria)
  2. Advanced stealth features through design and materials
  3. Aircraft with Artificial Intelligence (AI)
  4. Multi-sensor data fusion (MSDF) and 3D audio for enhanced situational awareness
  5. Advanced cockpit with large area display (LAD), touchscreen and 3D display for excellent user interface
  6. Quadruplex digital fly-by-wire control system with HOTAS-configured side stick controller and unified throttle
  7. Automated takeoff and landing (ATOL), automated missions and auto air-to-air refueling (Auto AAR)
  8. Voice-activated commands
  9. Imported F414-GE-INS6 engines with 98 kN dry thrust for first two squadrons; indigenous 110 kN engine for next five.
  10. Supersonic cruise on dry thrust (only with 110 kN engines)
  11. Internal carriage of precision weapons (for stealth & supercruise)
  12. Super-manoeuvrability through thrust-vectoring (unlikely in initial batch with 98 kN engine)
...
To a keen observer, AMCA timelines (even considering project sanction and funding in 2021) sound overly optimistic, given concurrent programs like Twin-engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), LCA Mk 2, and Omni Role Combat Aircraft (ORCA) also vying for attention and resources. Though some osmosis / synergy between these projects is but expected, ADA and the lead integrator’s capacity will surely be tested with so many developmental projects running concurrently. The first casualty will be timeline.

This is an unfortunate ‘damned if you do; damned if you don’t’ scheme we have curated for ourselves. Projection of a realistic timeline is often untenable and may force user services to import. On the other hand, DRDO/DPSU holding services hostage to a constantly slipping timeline erodes operational readiness.
...
That degree of autonomy in finance & decision making was crucial for LCA, as it would be for the AMCA, Air Marshal Nambiar feels. While celebrating the many successes of LCA, he rued disappointments like LCA’s long list of deficiencies from ASR 2/85, shifting timelines of LCA Mk2, poor product support and under-developed supply chain management, lack of a robust ILS, maintenance issues and production quality of LCA, etc. Nambiar hopes these lessons will get the attention of our decision makers on AMCA and will result in selection of appropriate choices for making up the deep deficit in fighter squadrons (30 against 42 as of 2020).
...
As the AMCA evolves, it will face many hurdles, idiosyncrasies, pet-peeves and diverse — often contradictory — requirements. India needs its own Kelly Johnson — or a person with similar traits — to navigate the program through this minefield. Sadly, our past forays into indigenous design & development of aircraft and helicopters have violated almost all of Kelly’s 14 Rules & Practices. This leads us back to the original question — who is the headmaster of ‘Project AMCA’? Does he command respect from all stakeholders?
...
While on the subject, do also reflect on who the Indian Kelly Johnson should be. For AMCA to reach full operational clearance without four dozen concessions, another Kota Harinarayana must rise from the masses.
Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2223
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/VamsiVamy/status/13 ... 1645149187
I think it's TEDBF official design. This slide is from the presentation given by Dr. Satish Reddy ,today in Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre official YouTube channel
Image

https://twitter.com/VamsiVamy/status/13 ... 5534697474
Image
kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6278
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by kit »

Curious about the time lines though


https://kaypius.com/2020/10/24/thoughts ... raft-amca/
Shifting timelines

The preliminary design of AMCA is understood to be ready as on date. ADA is reportedly targeting 2025 for first flight of the prototype. HAL hopes to commence production by 2028 (though there’s not much under their control right now). LCA Tejas that first flew in 2001 was inducted into service 15 years later. Tejas took 15 years from preliminary design to first flight of prototype; but that can be ascribed to post-Pokhran sanctions, learning curve, etc.

To a keen observer, AMCA timelines (even considering project sanction and funding in 2021) sound overly optimistic, given concurrent programs like Twin-engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), LCA Mk 2, and Omni Role Combat Aircraft (ORCA) also vying for attention and resources. Though some osmosis / synergy between these projects is but expected, ADA and the lead integrator’s capacity will surely be tested with so many developmental projects running concurrently. The first casualty will be timeline.

This is an unfortunate ‘damned if you do; damned if you don’t’ scheme we have curated for ourselves. Projection of a realistic timeline is often untenable and may force user services to import. On the other hand, DRDO/DPSU holding services hostage to a constantly slipping timeline erodes operational readiness.

Notably, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria has publicly thrown his weight behind the AMCA saying “DRDO must deliver”. It will be interesting to see who will hold them to account after he retires.


If all goes well, metal cutting for AMCA may commence as early as 2021. This will pitchfork India into an exclusive group of 3-4 countries that design, develop and operate 5th generation fighters. This is certainly something every Indian can be be proud of. Presently, Lockheed Martin’s F-22 Raptor, F-35 Lightning II and Chinese Chengdu J-20 are the only combat-ready FGFA
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

It took the F-22 program around 8.5 years to go from first flight to IOC, and the the F-35 took roughly 10 years for the same. Both of these benefited from an X or Y plane demonstration program prior to formal program sanction and requirement and configuration freeze. These were periods where risk reduction on stealth, airframe, engines, and other 5th generation specific technologies occurred which both identified what needed more development and whether technology was mature enough to proceed with detail design and development. The F-22 had a roughly 10 year lead up (direct with more time for indirect investment in enabling technologies) and the F-35 had a 6 year phase between demonstrator flights and EMD aircraft #1 (prototype) first flight. F-35 also benefited from F-22 stealth development that did not make it into the F-22 program (it was planned for insertion into future variants that never materialized). Particularly the wide-band RAM that extends into some of the lower frequencies.

Russia took longer to actually design and build prototypes (post program sanction) but they delivered the first operational T-50 late last year which was about 10 years after the first prototype flew. Since we do not know what the J-20 status was along its development journey we don't know how long the Chinese took in comparison to the US or Russia.

I think an AMCA becoming operational in the Mid-Late 2030's is a good target to shoot for. It is achievable though obviously there is risk as is with any advanced technology development and testing. There was a reference to "6th generation technology" mentioned in some past postings and articles. Depending upon what those even are it could add further complexity that the F-22, F-35, SU-57 or J-20 programs did not have to encounter.
Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5350
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Cain Marko »

Wonder what happens to all this if CAATSA sanctions go through. This is going to be the litmus test for Indo-US relationship.
darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2937
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by darshhan »

brar_w wrote:
I think an AMCA becoming operational in the Mid-Late 2030's is a good target to shoot for. It is achievable though obviously there is risk as is with any advanced technology development and testing. There was a reference to "6th generation technology" mentioned in some past postings and articles. Depending upon what those even are it could add further complexity that the F-22, F-35, SU-57 or J-20 programs did not have to encounter.
I seriously wonder if a Runway dependent Manned aircraft will still be relevant by the timelines mentioned. Even if it is of the most advanced category
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

darshhan wrote:
brar_w wrote:
I think an AMCA becoming operational in the Mid-Late 2030's is a good target to shoot for. It is achievable though obviously there is risk as is with any advanced technology development and testing. There was a reference to "6th generation technology" mentioned in some past postings and articles. Depending upon what those even are it could add further complexity that the F-22, F-35, SU-57 or J-20 programs did not have to encounter.
I seriously wonder if a Runway dependent Manned aircraft will still be relevant by the timelines mentioned. Even if it is of the most advanced category

Everyone has made that call and is developing next-generation systems all of which are manned and need runways.
Cain Marko wrote:Wonder what happens to all this if CAATSA sanctions go through. This is going to be the litmus test for Indo-US relationship.
No material impact as they will not be applied to cases where US national security relations are hurt (that is not their point). The US and GE will continue to supply F404 and F414 engines to support HAL's programs. Eventually the AMCA will transition to a clean sheet engine (i think 3rd squadron onward).
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by nam »

There are quite a few skeptics on twitter regarding our aerospace plans to run MK2, Tedbf & AMCA at the same time. The matter of the fact is, this is the method what the Chinese adopted.But much earlier than us.

Chinese were running 2 fighter programs in 2001, when they were 1T GDP: J10 & J11 with AL31 engine. At the same time they were working on the design on J20 with AL31 engine!

Now compare that with us: MWF & TEDBF with F414. Then AMCA again with F414.

This is actually the cheapest way to do a tech leap. Use the same tech and engine and bring out variation across the board.

Uttam on TEDBF will cost the same as MWF! Your prototypes will be cheaper. In fact one TEDBF prototype be 1.5 times of MWF prototype. Not expensive at all.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

There is sufficient money and manpower to run all local programs i.e. Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA.

The reverse is true when you start investing money in licensing producing someone else's fighter aircraft under the guise of Make in India.

It is for this reason that Mk1A production *MUST* succeed. The GOI must leave no stone left unturned to help HAL reach its goal.
Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 634
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Ankit Desai »

AMCA + TEJAS MK2 | TEDBF design revealed

Hindi
====


AMCA 2021 (MK1 & MK2) - 5.5 Generation Fighter Jet

Hindi
=====



-Ankit
LakshmanPST
BRFite
Posts: 673
Joined: 05 Apr 2019 18:23

Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »



Regarding AMCA:-
> PDR complete recently... Detailed design has started...
> Lot of common LRUs with Tejas Mk2... Some LRUs will only require upgradation...
> PSQRs frozen...
> Roll Out by 2024...
> Full scale model for measuring stealth should come 'very soon'...
> Intakes changed to DSI...
> All future programs will have DSI, including TEDBF...
Post Reply