Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

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kit
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by kit »

LakshmanPST wrote: AMCA Mk1is pure 5th Gen jet...
AMCA Mk2 is being called 5.5 Gen jet... It will have some 6 Gen capabilities viz. Optionally Manned, Direct Energy Weapons, Manned Unmanned team up etc.... These systems along with ability to super cruise require more powerful engines...
Difficult to believe.. but then so was the situation regarding the AMCA mk1 5 years back !
Haridas
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Haridas »

Manish_Sharma wrote:On AMCA intakes, sorry it's in Hindi:
Bharat ki dur-dasha hai, jab Hindi kay video kay liyey "sorry" kehna padey. :evil:

After all Engligh gives legitimacy to be recognized as brown sahib, and some substance. :rotfl:

Just saying.

Moi only a Inglis sepeaking succesfool Silicon Valley Kali-poornian, massaland. Epitome of successful brown yindian licking whitemen cash.

-Arun_S
Haridas
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Haridas »

Pratyush wrote:The plan for the AMCA has always included 40 mk1 and rest being Mk2. The mk1 is primarily on account of the GE414.

Though it has never been specifically stated what the Mk2 will have different other than indigenous engine's.

But it's quite strange that the IAF is so certain that we will not have indigenous engine's for the first 40 aircrafts. Even though the need was identified around 2014-15.

For an aircraft that will first fly around 2026-28.
Defense minister Menon was at helm (err. Saint AK Anthony) and treasury and economic institutions were destroyed by loot of Shri R Chi-dumb-rum via Mauritius (and other means).

Show me the "will" that is backed by greenback. Till then get the best educated finance minister become the prime minister to take national defense & honor to glory.

Chai pio bhai, and give dates written on sky board..
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by nachiket »

Pratyush wrote: But it's quite strange that the IAF is so certain that we will not have indigenous engine's for the first 40 aircrafts. Even though the need was identified around 2014-15.
That is a reasonable assumption. Doesn't matter when the need was identified, it only matter what has actually been done so far. The program to build this new engine has not even started yet. They have talked about foreign collaboration but no plan is finalized or a deal signed with RR/Safran or anyone else. Building a fifth-gen engine with our very limited experience will be a long, challenging and expensive process. Meanwhile the first prototype of the AMCA may be out by 2024-25 and serial production might start by mid-2030's if all goes well. I am happy that IAF is willing to consider procuring at least some aircraft powered by the F414 and is not holding out for a 100% complete solution that will take time.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by YashG »

Haridas wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:On AMCA intakes, sorry it's in Hindi:
Bharat ki dur-dasha hai, jab Hindi kay video kay liyey "sorry" kehna padey. :evil:

After all Engligh gives legitimacy to be recognized as brown sahib, and some substance. :rotfl:

Just saying.

Moi only a Inglis sepeaking succesfool Silicon Valley Kali-poornian, massaland. Epitome of successful brown yindian licking whitemen cash.

-Arun_S
Haridasji India has over 100 languages and many, many Indians who do not come from Hindi-belt - do not know Hindi. Indeed brahmos & arjun are manufactured at a place where not many people would not know Hindi. I also expect (& I hope) many posters here are not from hindi-belt. I'm from hindi-belt but India transcends identity of any one individual. its a large and diverse country. So 'sorry' could also be in interest of maybe non-hindi speakers ?
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

I doubt Arun S is from the hindi belt
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 97348?s=20 ---> Report: AMCA Mk1 may not have super-cruising capability as F414 engines are not powerful enough, AMCA Mk2 will get made-in-India engines capable of super cruise. Series production of AMCA Mk1 will begin in 2028-29.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Pratyush »

I am seeing that the internal weapons bay will have the capacity to carry 1.5 tons of weight.

How confident is the IAF that it is not falling yet again in the trap of lightest and smallest and lightest 5.5 Generation combat aircraft.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Or I think it might work a specialized fighter with limited strike capability. It might actually easier to develop at a cost compared to heavy Class of stealth fighters we have today
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by SidSoma »

I am afraid that we may be going down the LCA road again wrt the Engines. At this stage it may be better off to design the AMCA around a 120KN class engine (say AL-31FP of which we have tons of experience using and maintaining), than to go in for a completely new developed engine. The new engine can be used for AMCA upgrades.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Barath »

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 090271.ece

Has a few titbits on AMCA. Not very surprising or new. But still good .

"It will be a 25 tonne aircraft with internal carriage of 1,500 kg of payload and 5,500 kg external payload with 6,500 kg of internal fuel.
Speaking at an event last week, Girish S. Deodhare, Director General, ADA, said the [AMCA] configuration has been frozen, Preliminary Service Quality Requirements (PSQR) are finalised and the preliminary design review is complete. The Critical Design Review (CDR) is expected later this year with the roll out planned in 2024 and first flight planned in 2025, Dr. Deodhare stated.

The AMCA will have stealth and non-stealth configurations, and would be developed in two phases — an AMCA MK1 with existing GE414 engine, and an AMCA Mk2 with an advanced, more powerful engine planned to be jointly developed"


@SidSoma - GE 414 engine can be uprated via GE 414 Advanced/Enhanced to at least 115 kn. https://www.geaviation.com/sites/defaul ... hanced.pdf. May cost some money and a bit of time to do so, but there are fallback options. And GE 414 has commonality , gets away from Russia (which is becoming more of a problem), will likely have greater life and reliability. GE 414 Advanced some work was done and pitched for SH upgrades but was not accepted AFAIK. The core issue is that GE 414 enhanced will not provide India IP or capability. So there would be some de-risking options there already.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by dkhare »

MeshaVishwas wrote:
Required viewing for all Rakshaks. It shows how much we have learned, how iterative development and proper phases are the keys before jumping to newer more modern platforms.

Thank you @MeshaVishwas for sharing this lecture.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by sankum »

Data points from above lecture.
TEDBF will have 5500kg internal fuel.

AMCA data is dated. The length is 18.1 m as per latest model tender and external paylioad is 5500 kg instead of 5000 kg as per latest news reports.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Cybaru »

Pratyush wrote:I am seeing that the internal weapons bay will have the capacity to carry 1.5 tons of weight.

How confident is the IAF that it is not falling yet again in the trap of lightest and smallest and lightest 5.5 Generation combat aircraft.
They are designing a fighter which is optimal for the available power plants.

They have committed to Mk2, and have taken the same page out of LCA series to do a different power plant on Mk2.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Cybaru »

Barath wrote:https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 090271.ece

Has a few titbits on AMCA. Not very surprising or new. But still good .

"It will be a 25 tonne aircraft with internal carriage of 1,500 kg of payload and 5,500 kg external payload with 6,500 kg of internal fuel.


Thats great! even though Medium category, it has enough fuel (internal + external) to do all missions MKI can do. It can quite easily be configured to carry 10 tons fuel and about 3-4.5 tons of payload. Sure it may not be able to do beast truck mode of MKI, but should be able to do all other missions well and exceed in the stealth department. The cats warrior program will extend its legs and sensors to what we can do today.

Great stuff!
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by nachiket »

SidSoma wrote:I am afraid that we may be going down the LCA road again wrt the Engines. At this stage it may be better off to design the AMCA around a 120KN class engine (say AL-31FP of which we have tons of experience using and maintaining), than to go in for a completely new developed engine. The new engine can be used for AMCA upgrades.
You cannot use an AL-31 to power a 5th generation jet. Stealth aircraft incur aerodynamic and weight compromises due to the need for stealth shaping combined with greater internal volume for fuel and the weapons bay. You need engines with a much greater T:W ratio to compensate especially if you need supercruise capability which the IAF seems to want in the AMCA. This is why the Russians consider the current Su-57 engine (AL-41F1) to be a stopgap despite it being a lot more powerful than the AL-31 on the Su-30. They are still struggling with the definitive engine for the Su-57 (izdeliye 30) which as per projected specs needs to produce a lot more thrust despite being in a similar size/weight class. If we want the AMCA to be larger and carry as much fuel/ordnance internally as the F-22 or the Su-57 we'll need engines of similar performance.

Even the latest specs being talked about for the indigenous engine to be developed for the AMCA talks about 120kN wet thrust which is not too far from what the AL-31 produces. And this is needed for the current size of the AMCA. Also, this needs to be obtained from a much smaller and lighter engine. That is where the difficulties arise.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by SidSoma »

nachiket wrote: You cannot use an AL-31 to power a 5th generation jet. Stealth aircraft incur aerodynamic and weight compromises due to the need for stealth shaping combined with greater internal volume for fuel and the weapons bay. You need engines with a much greater T:W ratio to compensate especially if you need supercruise capability which the IAF seems to want in the AMCA. This is why the Russians consider the current Su-57 engine (AL-41F1) to be a stopgap despite it being a lot more powerful than the AL-31 on the Su-30. They are still struggling with the definitive engine for the Su-57 (izdeliye 30) which as per projected specs needs to produce a lot more thrust despite being in a similar size/weight class. If we want the AMCA to be larger and carry as much fuel/ordnance internally as the F-22 or the Su-57 we'll need engines of similar performance.

Even the latest specs being talked about for the indigenous engine to be developed for the AMCA talks about 120kN wet thrust which is not too far from what the AL-31 produces. And this is needed for the current size of the AMCA. Also, this needs to be obtained from a much smaller and lighter engine. That is where the difficulties arise.
Thank you for the response. Yes, if the engine for AMCA is changed to AL-31 it would mean a 1000 Kg increase in Empty weight and thus would make super cruise even harder/eat into the useful payload. Most engines around seem to be around that 9:1 thrust to weight ratio mark. Iz 30 is aiming to hit higher than 10. That would be an interesting achievement. M-88 says 8.5 (all wiki numbers for probably the basic engine).

I understand that 414 itself can be uprated (either for better performance or better life). Am not sure which way IAF and ADA will go. It does seem like we are all out of options and hence the ideal way would be to develop a new engine.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Nachiket: which brings up the question that's been nagging me from the beginning of the AMCA program. Are we falling into the Light/Medium self-inflicted trap again? If we want a powerful engine + large internal weapons storage, why didn't we design a heavy stealth fighter to begin with?

Too much water under the bridge now. But still, I can't help but wonder.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by AkshaySG »

Prem Kumar wrote:Nachiket: which brings up the question that's been nagging me from the beginning of the AMCA program. Are we falling into the Light/Medium self-inflicted trap again? If we want a powerful engine + large internal weapons storage, why didn't we design a heavy stealth fighter to begin with?

Too much water under the bridge now. But still, I can't help but wonder.
Maybe IAF still sees the Su-30 as being enough for its Heavy Fighter capabilities.. A well upgraded Su-30MKI could serve us well into the 2040's and beyond.

We have 250+ of them and they form the backbone of our fleet.

While the other developments/acquisitions will bring up the Light and Medium category be it LCA, MWF, AMCA, Raffy etc.

Once we build up the capacity to develop, build and operate light-medium fighters over the next decade or so we can start thinking about a heavy stealth/6th Gen fighter to replace the Su-30s
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by nachiket »

Prem Kumar wrote:Nachiket: which brings up the question that's been nagging me from the beginning of the AMCA program. Are we falling into the Light/Medium self-inflicted trap again? If we want a powerful engine + large internal weapons storage, why didn't we design a heavy stealth fighter to begin with?

Too much water under the bridge now. But still, I can't help but wonder.
There is the question of design capability. AMCA design and systems have to leverage our efforts from Tejas Mk1 and Mk2. That is the only way to complete the project in a reasonable amount of time. If you start designing a Su-30 sized aircraft that is a different beast and would take longer. Not to mention how expensive such an aircraft might be. The Americans stopped at 182 F-22's and switched to the smaller F-35. I am sure there were discussions with the IAF about what exactly they were looking for in terms of performance along with an appraisal of our design and production capabilities before arriving at the current AMCA specs.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Neilz »

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/150 ... W7xFl1g2bQ
HAL in association with ADA has started manufacturing activities of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
@SpokespersonMoD @drajaykumar_ias @DefProdnIndia @IAF_MCC @gopalsutar
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by KSingh »

SidSoma wrote:I am afraid that we may be going down the LCA road again wrt the Engines. At this stage it may be better off to design the AMCA around a 120KN class engine (say AL-31FP of which we have tons of experience using and maintaining), than to go in for a completely new developed engine. The new engine can be used for AMCA upgrades.
Actually no they have at least learned this lesson- AMCA MK.1 is de-risked from the engine dramas as it’ll use F414, MK.2 will get the new JV engine

Russian engines are a big no
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by KSingh »

Prem Kumar wrote:Nachiket: which brings up the question that's been nagging me from the beginning of the AMCA program. Are we falling into the Light/Medium self-inflicted trap again? If we want a powerful engine + large internal weapons storage, why didn't we design a heavy stealth fighter to begin with?

Too much water under the bridge now. But still, I can't help but wonder.
I actually don’t think so, a 25-28 ton heavy/medium size fighter seems to be the sweet spot. J-20 and SU-30 are unwieldy beasts and outliers. Remember the name of the game is VLO, a larger airframe is inherently putting you at a disadvantage in terms of RCS and there’s only so much you can do to mitigate that, no matter how stealthy you made an A380 it’s still going to give a bigger RCS than a A320 with similar RCS mitigation. Also heavier/larger means even more powerful engines required and it’s just a vicious cycle there.

25-28 seems to be the sweet spot that France, Korea, Japan and India are aiming for their next gen platforms. Rafale has shown that this size aircraft is by no means at a disadvantage to a heavier fighter (other than in raw weapons carriage but how often is that needed?)

They started from a clean sheet and came to the most optimised solution IMO- totally different to the ridiculous own goals of fhe LIGHT combat aircraft/combat helicopter/utility helicopter.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by brar_w »

KSingh wrote: Remember the name of the game is VLO, a larger airframe is inherently putting you at a disadvantage in terms of RCS and there’s only so much you can do to mitigate that
This generalization cannot be further from the truth.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Cybaru »

What role will the AMCA not be able to do that the MKI does today? Share configs please.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by bala »

"HAL in association with ADA has started manufacturing activities of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). "
This is good. We need to hasten things and get the bird in flight soon. Once the engine tech collaboration is in-place, the craft would be more than sufficient for India's immediate needs. We can declare independence from foreign maal for good.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Cybaru wrote:What role will the AMCA not be able to do that the MKI does today? Share configs please.
Having a much smaller RCS and sensor fusion will make it a better fighter and more difficult for adversy to detect its ingress and engage it.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Manish_Sharma »

KSingh wrote: .....a larger airframe is inherently putting you at a disadvantage in terms of RCS and there’s only so much you can do to mitigate that, no matter how stealthy you made an A380 it’s still going to give a bigger RCS than a A320 with similar RCS mitigation...
For sure huge B2 bomber is bigger than j20 and pakfa but with lesser RCS
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by hnair »

Cybaru wrote:What role will the AMCA not be able to do that the MKI does today? Share configs please.

The air battles of tomorrow would be over vast oceans or vast Tibet. There is limited point in waiting for Chinese to attack and then defend against them in our own skies. The Su30MKI and it’s sensor fit seem designed to fight over paki airspace and hence the PAF’a frantic attempts to bag one for self reassurance. We should follow the same definition logic in AMCA too. Might be a good idea to increase the dimensions of AMCA right now instead of starting a HWF program off the AMCA design in 2040. Kind of like the LCA upscale to MWF.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Ganesh_S »

A redesigned/upscaled airforce variant of tebdf with 120kn AMCA mk2 engines could well be our hwf. No point in having a heavy stealth fighter with its payload hanging on external pylons. AMCAs could well be the escorts and interceptors of our future air battles.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Ganesh_S »

Only problem here could be issues with the uprated engines designed for AMCA having to carry heavy payloads.

Assuming stealth fighter engines need to be uprated to provide space for IWB.
Last edited by Ganesh_S on 10 Mar 2022 23:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Ganesh_S »

Think of it this way, design/development cost of 1000 plus engines (AMCA, TEHWF) @15 million a pop (future prices)can easily amortize the investment it calls for today.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Ganesh_S »

If wishes and reality could coincide an entire ecosystem worth a trillion dollars (GOI investment/grants leading to multiplier effect) could be realized by 2050.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Ganesh_S »

Cybaru wrote:What role will the AMCA not be able to do that the MKI does today? Share configs please.
What would be the point of stealth if AMCA had to carry payloads on external pylons?

AMCA has to be an air superiority deterence and hence it's role has to be limited as in escorts or interceptors. A stealth bomb truck would be an entirely different concept.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by rajsunder »

Neilz wrote:https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/150 ... W7xFl1g2bQ
HAL in association with ADA has started manufacturing activities of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
@SpokespersonMoD @drajaykumar_ias @DefProdnIndia @IAF_MCC @gopalsutar
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read that these are for the leading edge of the fighter jet.
Are they not supposed to have a L-band radar elements to track missiles on their leading wing edges? And how is having them made from metal going to help?
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by vinod »

Ganesh_S wrote:
What would be the point of stealth if AMCA had to carry payloads on external pylons?.
When the mission requires stealth, it won't carry anything on pylons.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

And like F-22, in some missions fuel tanks, Cruise missile - the pylons will be dropped after release of weapon fuel to retain stealth
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Cyrano »

Vijaya praapti rastu to our intrepid AMCA team on this exciting adventure !
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Ganesh_S »

vinod wrote:
Ganesh_S wrote:
What would be the point of stealth if AMCA had to carry payloads on external pylons?.
When the mission requires stealth, it won't carry anything on pylons.[/quot


Eggjactly
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