Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

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Bharadwaj
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Bharadwaj »

My completely untrained eye likes the compromise between aero and stealth. What a beauty. I would happily pay any amca surcharge if thats what it took to fund this bird.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by fanne »

Hey since I am the smartest person in this universe, can I offer some criticism?
Hoping more informed people will answer this -

This looks like not a true LO platform in the league of F-35/F-22 or even J-XX of chinese. It 'looks' slightly better than Rafale, if that, (with an internal weapon bay that would keep its low RCS intact).
The wings are not canted enough and are very large. Is that because of lack of a Thrust vectoring engine? (These engines maybe providing additional control). There are too many protruding surfaces (engine starter intake in the end).
Since we have Rafale (and hopefully can get more), should we not go for a significantly more stealthy bird?
Will this be capable enough chinese J-XXs? If yes then we have met our goal, if it is not, we have missed it. This question only comes because, from the look of it (and I am applying my super duper brain) it does not look very stealthy.

Please go easy, my doubts do not come from the same intent as it comes from Field Marshal Praveen S or from shooklaw. The intent is benign. I hope the real model is more stealthy. Maybe this is what we are capable of and mk2 will be a step up from that.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Avinandan »

Could some of the expert(s) please throw some light on the non-aligned tail sweeps, they start off flat before they taper off.
kit
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by kit »

Image


https://mobile.twitter.com/DefenceDecod ... 9498476544

AMCA seems to follow the Korean way of building stealth fighter, expect iterative improvements with successive versions., the initial one would not be a true American style 5th generation stealth but Indian stealth fighter mark 1.,
Last edited by kit on 07 Aug 2022 12:50, edited 1 time in total.
Zynda
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Zynda »

Avinandan wrote:Could some of the expert(s) please throw some light on the non-aligned tail sweeps, they start off flat before they taper off.
If you are referring to what seems like a curve at the base of the tail, its just the reflection of tail on the curved contour of the fuselage. The tail LE sweep is straight onlee i.e. single angle

Interesting that they are testing this at Calspan and it seems like a fairly good sized model.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by kit »

Posting some pics for reference !

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

source : https://defencehub.live/threads/india%E ... amca.6470/
Avinandan
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Avinandan »

Zynda wrote:
Avinandan wrote:Could some of the expert(s) please throw some light on the non-aligned tail sweeps, they start off flat before they taper off.
If you are referring to what seems like a curve at the base of the tail, its just the reflection of tail on the curved contour of the fuselage. The tail LE sweep is straight onlee i.e. single angle
Zynda Sir, I beg to differ on that. By tail sweeps, I meant the LEs of horizontal stabilizers which are not aligned with LEs of the wings.
Apologies for any confusion.

Refer the horizonal stabilizers in below images to what I mean and the Plan form aligned design which was planned earlier but now it is not.
I dare say I have not seen such peculiar horizonal stabilizer shaping for any 5Gen designed plane yet.
The most simple explanation could be that there was no enough space to continue the same angle as it might have interfered with movement of wing trailing edges/flaps. However if you check the top view of the AMCA in the 2nd image below, it is probably not really the case.
kit wrote: Earlier Design
Image

Current Frozen Design
Image

Image



source : https://defencehub.live/threads/india%E ... amca.6470/
hnair
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by hnair »

We need to wait for better analysis than Carlo Kopp type (“f22 has superior stealth than f35 because of inferior exhaust geometry”) of feature by feature comparisons. But why not :D

- If we go with stealth design choices based on leading-trailing edge alignments, AMCA’s engine inlet leading top edge could be reason for the small cutoff of the horizontal stabilisers. But then it should be inward canted due to DSI design. So would need to see why that is so.

- there are no “engine starters” in a DSI inlet as pioneered by F35. Those are the immovable and stealthier “DSI bumps” that replace the less stealthier splitter plate (F22, Tejas, j10, Su30, f16, eurocanards etc), the movable upper lips of F15/f14 inlets and the movable “Souris” of the mirage types. Right now, F35, j20, Su75 and of course bandhar sports these
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Cyrano »

What engines will power AMCA? GE 404IN or GE 414s or any Kaveri derivative? Checked page 1 but couldn't spot this info
Thanks.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Cyrano wrote:What engines will power AMCA? GE 404IN or GE 414s or any Kaveri derivative? Checked page 1 but couldn't spot this info
Thanks.
The first two AMCA Mk1 squadrons will feature a pair of GE F414 turbofans, each producing 98kN of wet thrust. The next lot of AMCA Mk2s are planned to have a set of indigenous turbofans with a maximum wet thrust of 110kN. Other media reports have gone as high as 125kN, but no official info exists.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Pratyush »

So IAF is doing a Tejas on AMCA.

Design an inferior product day one. Order token numbers of it.

From day one day say that we are going to build a mk2 with the actual characteristics of the item that we want. Which will add years of delay to the production of the final product. Once the Mk1 has flown. As we will be asking for a redesigned internal weapons bay.

But we will make sure not to take any measures to make sure that we reach the final product in one shot by designing the platform for higher capacity engine's and making sure that those engine's are available on day one. Or even design the final product in such a way that the higher thrust engine can be fitted at a later date.

Inspite of being aware of such a requirement for over 15 years in 2029 by the time the Mk1 is deemed to be acceptable by the IAF. 20 to 25 years by the time the Mk2 comes along and makes the first flight.

Why is the IAF so incapable of taking logical decisions?
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Now now. Don't get despondent.
This is India and the Chalta Hai Raj.
Chalta Hai is in our genes. If MBAs in India don't think that they have done anything wrong by parking on the wrong side of the road then it is a bit of a stretch to expect things from others. The armed forces are a reflection of our society and as our society has stood by in making the forces a less and less attractive occupation then one gets what one deserves.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by dkhare »

She looks absolutely gorgeous! What a beauty!

I am really curious about the shape of the horizontal stabilizers.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Kartik »

Looks like Prashant Bhadoria got into some official trouble after putting out that AMCA WTT pic. His twitter handle is not loading anymore..:(
kit
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by kit »

There seems to be a huge campaign underway against the AMCA program., anyone noticing this in open media ?
basant
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by basant »

Nope. I won't be surprised though if someone believes that the wind tunnel models are more secretive than numerous tenders with designs and specifications that come for the making of the fighters.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ldev »

Kartik wrote:Looks like Prashant Bhadoria got into some official trouble after putting out that AMCA WTT pic. His twitter handle is not loading anymore..:(
Isn't this the second transgression? There was that photograph of the Rafale hardened shelters which would enable somebody to figure out from the thickness as to what kind of PGM would penetrate that.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by vijayk »

India to join China, US, Russia with AMCA Gen 5 advanced fighter jet, design revealed
https://zeenews.india.com/aviation/indi ... 97270.html
16 Aug 2022
The Indian Air Force is one of the most advanced defence forces in the world with a fleet that can put any country to shame. IAF has the most advanced fighter jet fleet in the region and also in the world. However, India still lacks a 5th Gen fighter jet, which is considered the most advanced fighter jet in the world and only a few countries in the world has this type of aircraft. To give an insight, the United States has Lockheed Martin's F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II, while China has Chengdu J-20 and Russia has Sukhoi Su-57. These are the only three countries with the advanced 5th generation fighter jet. On the other hand, India is readying its Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme to rival these nations.

Former Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Rakesh Kumar Singh Bhadauria announced that the development of 5th Generation advanced multi-role combat aircraft has been launched. Recently a tweet revealed the wind tunnel model of the AMCA, highlighting the design of the fighter jet. As seen in the image, the jet will get a dual engine configuration.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

ldev wrote:Isn't this the second transgression? There was that photograph of the Rafale hardened shelters which would enable somebody to figure out from the thickness as to what kind of PGM would penetrate that.
That was the son of Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria, not Prashant Bhadoria. And nothing came out of it.

And Prashant Bhadoria's twitter account is back up ---> https://twitter.com/htt40prashant

The last names of both sound similar, so a mix up could occur.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> Rolls Royce offering upgraded version of EJ200 engines with 110-120 kN for AMCA Mk2, along with IP rights with Indian govt: Report
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> Rolls Royce offering upgraded version of EJ200 engines with 110-120 kN for AMCA Mk2, along with IP rights with Indian govt: Report
Better to stick with Safran.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by A Deshmukh »

Can we buy Roll Royce? I mean the company with all its IP assets and not just the engine.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Pratyush »

A Deshmukh wrote:Can we buy Roll Royce? I mean the company with all its IP assets and not just the engine.
No. The sale to a European or an Asian country will be blocked. By the UK government.

1) Because the UK even though it has its own flag has not had any indipendent foreign policy since the signing of the US - UK strategic treaty in the late 50s.

2) no serious player ever sells it's crown jewels to another nation. It will do everything in it's power to preserve it. The best that can be done is a joint venture with it.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> Rolls Royce offering upgraded version of EJ200 engines with 110-120 kN for AMCA Mk2, along with IP rights with Indian govt: Report
Very interesting about what the UK is offering as a part of the joint venture.

Even today they are not prepared for a leading edge JV partnership. The next generation aircrafts are going to require a massive amount of electrical power for various applications.

The proposed tempest power plant, if and when realised is projected to generate over 10 times the electrical power. When compared to the EJ200.

This project will lock India with a product that is going to at least one generation behind the bleeding edge.

With a projected R&D expense of upto 6 billion euros. This is going to be very expensive. Along with ineffective project for the Indian defence establishment.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Prasad »

A Deshmukh wrote:Can we buy Roll Royce? I mean the company with all its IP assets and not just the engine.
EJ200 compressor blisks are made by MTU Germany. There are other work-share spread-around headaches like that because of the way the Eurofighter program was setup. So no, better to deal with the french and pay through our nose than deal with foreign policy related string pulling of the other oiros.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by bharathp »

Pratyush ji,
I do not see any other player willing to partner with India to develop cutting edge/bleeding edge tech. I would say, even if its one gen behind, but works for our AMCA, take it and then use the knowledge to go up in Gen ourselves.
the longer we wait to get "cutting edge tech onlee" the farther the tech goes and the more expensive it gets -and much more importantly the longer we are without our own power plant
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Safran offer is realistic and workable, this is smiles and mirrors.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Vips »

Make no mistake we will have to do with something which is one gen behind, this dog and pony show with RR /UK is being done so that French do not act all haughty and offer us the same kind of deal for lot more $$$$ Euros.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

Saar, do you see a deal like HAL-Safran for ALH engine make sense ?
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by KSingh »

Pratyush wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> Rolls Royce offering upgraded version of EJ200 engines with 110-120 kN for AMCA Mk2, along with IP rights with Indian govt: Report
Very interesting about what the UK is offering as a part of the joint venture.

Even today they are not prepared for a leading edge JV partnership. The next generation aircrafts are going to require a massive amount of electrical power for various applications.

The proposed tempest power plant, if and when realised is projected to generate over 10 times the electrical power. When compared to the EJ200.

This project will lock India with a product that is going to at least one generation behind the bleeding edge.

With a projected R&D expense of upto 6 billion euros. This is going to be very expensive. Along with ineffective project for the Indian defence establishment.
At some point some strategic thinking has to apply, they already botched it once by allowing the LCA, TEDBF and AMCA (MK.1) projects become reliant on arguably India’s least reliable defence supplier.

The U.K. is barely an upgrade on that front. The French are really the only truly autonomous nation that has the means to offer such tech to india, if the babudom blow this opportunity yet again then some purges need to take place. Equally I can only hope the PMO is taking this seriously as they should be. This is no less strategically relevant than the SSBNs
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by V_Raman »

How long are we going to be stuck with this 1-generation behind mindset for aircraft engine when we dont even have 1 working engine!!

Get that 1-generation behind engine first. No one is going to give you the bleeding edge anyway!!
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Aldonkar »

Aditya_V wrote:Safran offer is realistic and workable, this is smiles and mirrors.
Wasn't Safran supposed to provide support to enhance Kaveri as part of the Rafale offsets? What became of that?
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ramana »

Kaveri afterburner section couldn't be resolved.
It would be pouring lot of money for an engine without growth potential.
So those offsets are being used for this new engine I think.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ramana »

Also most experts are not privy to the RR offer. It's a live or die situation for them wrt military jet engines.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by KSingh »

ramana wrote:Also most experts are not privy to the RR offer. It's a live or die situation for them wrt military jet engines.
Anyone with some sense knows that RR won’t be offering up their Crown Jewels to a non-NATO, non-allied, technological inferior junior partner.

They are going to offer their now legacy tech as they have long since been working on their future gen engines.

This is fine because a 125KN engine is more than sufficient for AMCA and if its MRO and major sections are made/owned in india via a SPV that is a huge bonus already.

Just don’t pretend like RR is coming to save the day here.

Safran’s success with the Shakti should give them the edge in india and France can be trusted for india more than the UK
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by bala »

France also gave India/ISRO the Vikas engine design and tested the rocket at their facilities.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by ramana »

K Singh Who are you referring to when you say "Don't pretend..."
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by RoyG »

ramana wrote:K Singh Who are you referring to when you say "Don't pretend..."
He's referring to you.
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by basant »

ramana wrote:K Singh Who are you referring to when you say "Don't pretend..."
Ramana garu, RR is Rolls-Royce (Turbomeca Adour).
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Re: Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Post by Rakesh »

basant wrote:Ramana garu, RR is Rolls-Royce (Turbomeca Adour).
Hate to nitpick, but that is not correct Saar.

The Adour is a turbofan that was jointly developed by Rolls Royce and Turbomeca for the SEPECAT Jaguar. Rolls Royce is British and Turbomeca (now known as Safran Helicopter Engines) is French. The Adour program was the first of many joint ventures between the two companies.

Go here for more info ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Roy ... meca_Adour
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