Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 05 Feb 2020 20:53

Just notice this...seems like AMCA will have an all moving HT. All control surfaces on the CAD rendering are shaded with lighter gray...HT is all grey only.

P.S: Just observed the 3D models pictures posted on the earlier page also have an all moving HT.

PPS: The CAD model from Tamrak's page seems to be an early configuration study one...seems a little rough around the edges. Still will serve the purpose.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Feb 2020 23:05

AMCA was supposed to have all moving horizontal stabilizers from day 1.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Feb 2020 03:55

brar_w wrote:The AMCA is going to be a 15+ year effort. It is a substantial design and industrial capability/capacity lift. To be completely non export reliant (besides additional Rafale's and MKI's) during that time-frame the MWF has to deliver by 2030 (In-service date for the first operational squadron) which a challenge though not an insurmountable one. I think if the MWF can be that 80% Rafale solution at half its cost the IAF will be more than willing to spend this entire decade investing in the AMCA. Otherwise, they may look at importing a 5FGA 5-8 years down the road (and comments like "we'll consider PAKFA later if required" point to that).

+1

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 06 Feb 2020 04:16

Rakesh wrote:That intake design is indeed different. Looks like F-35.

Anantha Krishnan is not one to make up stuff, so I will leave it to the Gurus to answer this one.

Yes, those are official images that Anantha Krishnan has released. First official ones of the new iteration with modified DSI intakes and with forward swept intakes, similar to the F-35. Overall, I really really like this iteration. IMO, this design looks a lot more refined and optimized. The shape has changed since Feb 2019 Aero India show

1) the wing span has increased for an increased aspect ratio.
2) The wing is now cropped differently than it was earlier
3) Also, the radome length and shape seems far more refined as well, although we'd need to see more images to confirm that
4) Vertical stabilizers have a compound sweep angle from the base to the top
5) larger horizontal stabilizers

Feb 2020 design

AMCA design revealed around Feb 2019

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Feb 2020 06:06

+ Single LE
+ flaps and aelirons have same chord

These show RCS reduction efforts. But, I still think this is not the latest variant.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Feb 2020 05:13

Indranil wrote:+ Single LE
+ flaps and aelirons have same chord

These show RCS reduction efforts. But, I still think this is not the latest variant.

Any particular reason why you think this isn't the latest variant? I have yet to see any AMCA model displayed at DefExpo to compare these couple of images to.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Feb 2020 10:17

Just gut-feeling.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Feb 2020 23:19

I also think its one of many study configs, we should take it with pinch of salt.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Feb 2020 21:26

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12268 ... 54336?s=20 ---> One of the greatest Indian scientists of our times. One of the few men behind the supremacy of LCA's impeccable Control Law (CLAW). CLAW had been an out & out winner from day one of Tejas - perhaps the only fly-by-wire fighter in the world with a perfect flight safety record.

^^^^ Above tweet in response to tweet below....

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 74144?s=20 ---> And, here's another Unsung and Inspiring hero of Def Expo India - Dr Girish Shantaram Deodhare, ADA, Director. Always away from the media glare, the 'CLAW Man' was there on Day-1 at the show, but remained silent & stealthy all through.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Feb 2020 19:59

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1230278535442358274 ----> So, what’s the shape & size of 6th gen fighters? The individual fighter of the 6th gen is indeed going to be a mid-sized asset which belongs to a larger team of assets & controllers. The aircraft would incorporate a stealthy shape, but the emphasis of the next gen is...

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 29 Feb 2020 21:40

Recent IAF statement that AMCA will field indigenous 110 KN powerplant ?

(Are they setting it up for Failure?)

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 03 Mar 2020 01:06

dinesh_kimar wrote:Recent IAF statement that AMCA will field indigenous 110 KN powerplant ?

(Are they setting it up for Failure?)

I think that the task would be greatly simplified if we managed to get the CMC technology licensed from Japan.

May be NaMo can use the next round of High Speed railway lines as a bargaining chip for licensing that technology from Japan.

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 03 Mar 2020 01:30

we couldnt purchase US 2i, couldnt convince them for Soryus for whatever reasons and we are expecting them for CNCs

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 06 Apr 2020 00:21

According to Defence AV on Youtube, post design finalization the first fill scale model of AMCA will be made by VEM Technologies and will be sent to DRDO chitradurga facility for RCS measurement.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Apr 2020 01:29

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12268 ... 54336?s=20 ---> One of the greatest Indian scientists of our times. One of the few men behind the supremacy of LCA's impeccable Control Law (CLAW). CLAW had been an out & out winner from day one of Tejas - perhaps the only fly-by-wire fighter in the world with a perfect flight safety record.

^^^^ Above tweet in response to tweet below....

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 74144?s=20 ---> And, here's another Unsung and Inspiring hero of Def Expo India - Dr Girish Shantaram Deodhare, ADA, Director. Always away from the media glare, the 'CLAW Man' was there on Day-1 at the show, but remained silent & stealthy all through.

BRF should select a scientist for pushing Indigenization annually. We should give that person something like $5,000 as a recognition for his effort and a lifetime "Super Member" status on BRF. I am willing to contribute for this.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 06 Apr 2020 01:31

Great idea !

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 06 Apr 2020 01:32

It can be a scientist or a service member (if rules permit).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Apr 2020 04:22

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 65856?s=20 ---> Coming soon . . . .

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 83968?s=20 ---> @hvtiaf sir, Please zoom the picture. There is something special for you.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12482 ... 42817?s=20 ---> We'll get a young & handsome pilot for AMCA.

kit · Post by **kit** » 10 Apr 2020 16:49

Vivek K wrote:BRF should select a scientist for pushing Indigenization annually. We should give that person something like $5,000 as a recognition for his effort and a lifetime "Super Member" status on BRF. I am willing to contribute for this.

Not quite sure this is a good idea. BRF is an open forum and there is very significant privacy concerns and risk in such a venture.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 12 Apr 2020 12:01

Privacy? Do you have something to hide?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Apr 2020 16:17

Vivek K wrote:Privacy? Do you have something to hide?

OT, but...

Privacy is a huge matter! In the eyes of some, there's very little difference between fan, jingo, nationalist, spy, terrorist! Overseas BRF meets were targeted in the old days, so they stopped getting advertised here.

nash · Post by **nash** » 14 Apr 2020 15:20

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 4571544576

Presenting you the #AMCA !.
And a Happy Pohela Baishakh (Bengali New year) to all of you !!

Those renders are looking awwwesome .

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 14 Apr 2020 20:02

All the renders are appreciated, but is there any actual news on AMCA and MWF?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Apr 2020 20:03

JTull wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Privacy? Do you have something to hide?
OT, but...

Privacy is a huge matter! In the eyes of some, there's very little difference between fan, jingo, nationalist, spy, terrorist! Overseas BRF meets were targeted in the old days, so they stopped getting advertised here.

I have no axe to grind either way - except for encouraging swadeshi. How does privay come into this? Would love to be educated. BRF would be bankrolled by members and through a systematic process decide on an award annually or every two years.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Apr 2020 20:31

We just had a similar issue not too long back Vivek. Your intentions are well and great.

But that is not how an over zealous, rule driven Babu may look at it. They can ruin a person's career if they wanted to. At that point, not worth the prize.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 14 Apr 2020 20:42

https://i.postimg.cc/NFZR1QDQ/D0-Az-MKn ... Nd-M-2.jpg

What is area marked in circles ? Kunal in Twitter was saying its Boom syteoo refuelling area for AMCA like seen in American F-22 n F-35 ,but we don't have boom system refuellers

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Apr 2020 22:56

karan_mc wrote:https://i.postimg.cc/NFZR1QDQ/D0-Az-MKn ... Nd-M-2.jpg

What is area marked in circles ? Kunal in Twitter was saying its Boom syteoo refuelling area for AMCA like seen in American F-22 n F-35 ,but we don't have boom system refuellers

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Apr 2020 23:24

He has used his imagination for AMCA. Until now, there has been no proposal for AMCA to receive fuel through a boom receptacle. Those hexagonal shaped objects are conformal antennas. Being on the top, they are most likely used for satellite communications.

PS. Brar sahab, you and I must have been typing concurrently. Thanks for the details.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Apr 2020 03:16

karan_mc wrote:https://i.postimg.cc/NFZR1QDQ/D0-Az-MKn ... Nd-M-2.jpg

What is area marked in circles ? Kunal in Twitter was saying its Boom syteoo refuelling area for AMCA like seen in American F-22 n F-35 ,but we don't have boom system refuellers

But we have the P-8I and the C-17 that are both equipped with the boom receptacles. Both the A330 MRTT and the KC-46A are boom equipped. The Il-78 Midas is not. This might be the one requirement that the IAF could insert into a contest to eliminate the Il-78MKI Midas tanker from the contest. Even the Israeli Bedek 767-300ER tanker conversion included the FBW boom.

article link

With the China virus crisis leading to the grounding of almost all airlines worldwide, expect a glut of pretty new airliners for conversions if needed. We are expecting a massive crash in leasing rates for the widebody jets, given the fact that many airlines may go bankrupt and have to return their widebody fleets to their lease holders. Even relatively new 777s may become available for cargo or tanker conversions, if there is a need.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 15 Apr 2020 03:55

In Feb 2020, even the fuselage seems to be wider, Vertical tails seem to be placed wider apart compared to Feb 2019 design. It seems like a much larger aircraft. There were some discussions that MTOW has gone upto 29tons instead of planned 25 tons.

Also do we plan to put in IRST in the nose of AMCA?

Kartik wrote:
Rakesh wrote:That intake design is indeed different. Looks like F-35.

Anantha Krishnan is not one to make up stuff, so I will leave it to the Gurus to answer this one.
Yes, those are official images that Anantha Krishnan has released. First official ones of the new iteration with modified DSI intakes and with forward swept intakes, similar to the F-35. Overall, I really really like this iteration. IMO, this design looks a lot more refined and optimized. The shape has changed since Feb 2019 Aero India show

1) the wing span has increased for an increased aspect ratio.
2) The wing is now cropped differently than it was earlier
3) Also, the radome length and shape seems far more refined as well, although we'd need to see more images to confirm that
4) Vertical stabilizers have a compound sweep angle from the base to the top
5) larger horizontal stabilizers

Feb 2020 design

AMCA design revealed around Feb 2019

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Apr 2020 04:19

I don't think it's a much larger aircraft, but I really do get the feeling that the wing span is slightly greater and the other points I mentioned in my post that you quoted. Also, a single perspex canopy with no frame, which was present in the earlier design.

But all of that would need to be confirmed differently than by eye balling 2 images. Till then it's speculation on our part.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 15 Apr 2020 15:56

Quite exceptionally explained (for green thumbs in Aero/any fluid dynamics like me) F22 moves during Singapore air show.

One thing that is evident from this video is if we want to have TVC on AMCA, the engines need to generate enough military thrust to overcome the limitations and put the TVC into near peer combat use rather than being a token ability. If my wishes were horses, I'd say >=90kN dry for the current projected empty weight.

Also a question to gurus. How important is Yaw control in TVC during modern air combat (with all the BVRs and HMD+HOBS)? Is it enough to forego a loss in overall stealth that comes from round TVC exhaust? Or is the loss of a little bit useful power with jagged 2D exhaust can be argued against by the complex and heavy mechanism for independent yaw movement in 3D? Russia, US and Japan AFAIK has/is playing with jagged 3D TVC but those are still in TD.

Wanted to post it in this thread since it correlates with the point I'm making. Mods may remove or move as per appropriateness, or ask me to. Thank You.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 15 Apr 2020 18:18

Is TVC a part of the AMCA design?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Apr 2020 21:17

One thing is if the AMCA is needs that much thrust I hope designers allow the engine dimensions to be bigger than the GE 414. No point expecting Indian design to match the futuristic GE414 EPE in 10 years time. Targets for engine designers must be a bit realistic.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Apr 2020 23:13

brar_w wrote:Is TVC a part of the AMCA design?

No. I haven't seen that anywhere.

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 15 Apr 2020 23:48

nachiket wrote:
brar_w wrote:Is TVC a part of the AMCA design?
No. I haven't seen that anywhere.

Saar, ADA has been talking about super-maneuverability since I've came to know about the program. Also this is one report I found at hand where the graphics says it. I'll try to find an interview with timestamp once I get to my laptop.
Rajat Pandit's report

Edit
A dubious Russian blog but directly quotes Dr. Tamilmani

K. Tamilmani, Chief Controller R&D (Aero) of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), says India has the basic technologies but Russia is cooperating in critical areas such as thrust vectoring.

2nd Edit
ADA website with the graphic
Please look at fast change of state.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 15 Apr 2020 23:52

I'm not sure that article provides conclusive proof that ADA has chosen TVC as an option. GE actually has a TV nozzle that it designed for the F404/414 (and even offered it for export at one point), but I've heard nothing of it being revived for an international program. Similarly, haven't seen anything definitive development and test program locally. IR and others can probably clarify.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Apr 2020 00:09

So far from what we know, the AMCA's requirements don't include TVC.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 16 Apr 2020 00:09

souravB wrote:
nachiket wrote: No. I haven't seen that anywhere.
Saar, ADA has been talking about super-maneuverability since I've came to know about the program. Also this is one report I found at hand where the graphics says it. I'll try to find an interview with timestamp once I get to my laptop.
Rajat Pandit's report

Rajat Pandit is one of the most unreliable defense journos in India. Most of his articles are so filled with cooked up nonsense (many a times from "anonymous sources") that it is pointless to try and get any actual data from them.

Let's see if we have any graphic or document from ADA itself that they are actively looking at TVC in the current AMCA design. They must have considered various features and systems during the design process and I'm sure TVC must have been talked about. The original partially stealthy MCA design from aeons ago showed TVC with no vertical tail fin for example. It has not been a part of the scale models displayed in Aero-india or the designs shown thereafter.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 16 Apr 2020 00:16

The AMCA needs a 100KN engine first. Lets think of TVC after that.