HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

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Khalsa
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Khalsa »

Bump Up
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Khalsa »

Image

The chief seems to be buckled in and ready to go.
As per the tweet he is already airborne and yet to land.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/11 ... 2608916480
chola
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chola »

^^^ Jai hind! Our new air Chief Marshal is already flying an Indian product and a brand new one at that!

So proud of him, the HTT-40 and the country.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

During today's #HTT40 sortie, the CAS is said to have done stall and spin by himself. He told HAL to begin production at the earliest, probably signalling to them that the good news is just round the corner. @Onmanorama @akananth @IAF_MCC

https://t.co/MtHF6rRQsy



ACM RKS Bhadauria, CAS flew HTT40, tested its flying capabilities for one hour. First serving Air Chief to fly in prototype as Chief of Air Force. Details follow.@drajaykumar_ias @SpokespersonMoD @DefProdnIndia @gopalsutar

https://t.co/s3goGyTJ8Z
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by raghuk »

chola wrote:^^^ Jai hind! Our new air Chief Marshal is already flying an Indian product and a brand new one at that!

So proud of him, the HTT-40 and the country.
You forgot HAL :D
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chola »

ashishvikas wrote:During today's #HTT40 sortie, the CAS is said to have done stall and spin by himself. He told HAL to begin production at the earliest, probably signalling to them that the good news is just round the corner. @Onmanorama @akananth @IAF_MCC

https://t.co/MtHF6rRQsy



ACM RKS Bhadauria, CAS flew HTT40, tested its flying capabilities for one hour. First serving Air Chief to fly in prototype as Chief of Air Force. Details follow.@drajaykumar_ias @SpokespersonMoD @DefProdnIndia @gopalsutar

https://t.co/s3goGyTJ8Z
He did a WHAT?! Stall spin on a new aircraft?

How can we not love this guy? LoL

Yes Raghuk ji, HAL too!
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by mody »

Two Thumbs up for the Air Chief Marshal, HTT-40 and HAL.

Maybe in the next few years, HAL can have a lineup of the HTT-40, IJT-36 (with HTFE-25 engine), indigenised version of Hawk-AJT (with HTFE-25 based engine), LCA-SPORT and LCA-MK1A displayed at Air Shows around the world. The LCA-MK1A hopefully will be with the Uttam-AESA radar, displaying the full gamut of indigenous weapons, from Astra MK1 & 2, NGARM, SAAW, Garuda, Garuthma, PG-HSLD and Brahmos NG.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Two tweets that are very important....

https://twitter.com/vigneshaero02/statu ... 7754252288 ---> I actually really like the SPORT. Instead of LCA trainers we should pursue the SPORT. The future of IAF training can be HTT-40, IJT and then SPORT.

https://twitter.com/nileshjrane/status/ ... 2916262912 ---> SPORT could become the new MOFTU. Its probably a bit too much for AJT. As such, AJT Hawks are here to say for quite a while. In the next iteration we may need an AJT with has 5/6G features.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DFI_Sancho/status/1 ... 5237442560 ---> Some interesting info on the IAF trainer front:

- 38 x PC7 doesn't seem to be cancelled yet (deferred for 1 year)
- negotiations for 20 x more Hawks still on
- HTT 40 order possibly around April, if development is completed now

Image

Image

Image
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Avinandan »

Litmus test for Air Chief Marshal now ...
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Indranil »

We have had more updates since then. 6-turn spins in both directions have been completed. I don't know if the aircraft has been spun without instrumentation and removal of spin gantry. If not, it must be really close. Expect certification in the coming month(s).
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Video of HTT-40 doing hot refuelling tests. Video is dated 25 Jan 2020. Enjoy! :)

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/1221075261371715585
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1221104381220683782 ---> Little things that matter Big time. Hot refueling HTT-40. No other trainers possess. Continuous operations throughout the day. Only 1xTRS over 8-10 sorties during the day. Imagine graduating dozens of additional pilots every year with this enhancement.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by srin »

Rakesh wrote:Video of HTT-40 doing hot refuelling tests. Video is dated 25 Jan 2020. Enjoy! :)

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/1221075261371715585
Even more interesting in the follow up tweets by Prashant Bhadoria: Mk2 will be candidate for CAS.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Haridas »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1221104381220683782 ---> Little things that matter Big time. Hot refueling HTT-40. No other trainers possess. Continuous operations throughout the day. Only 1xTRS over 8-10 sorties during the day. Imagine graduating dozens of additional pilots every year with this enhancement.
Are you implying while hot fueling in progress, change of crew too? Very unlikely imho.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by PratikDas »

Haridas wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1221104381220683782 ---> Little things that matter Big time. Hot refueling HTT-40. No other trainers possess. Continuous operations throughout the day. Only 1xTRS over 8-10 sorties during the day. Imagine graduating dozens of additional pilots every year with this enhancement.
Are you implying while hot fueling in progress, change of crew too? Very unlikely imho.
I think the suggested improvement is that instructor and trainee aren't limited to one sortie due to fuel load and can quickly get back in the air to try and improve upon technique used or not used in the earlier flight while that flight's experience is still fresh in the mind, so the trainee gets to have eureka moments sooner.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Jayram »

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/1221075261371715585
Prashant Bhaduria is confirming Hot swap of crew as well. Check the link
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by PratikDas »

Jayram wrote:https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/1221075261371715585
Prashant Bhaduria is confirming Hot swap of crew as well. Check the link
Video here
https://twitter.com/prashantbhadori/status/1221331079056912384

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by JyotiSRC »

I am a newbie, and very proud as an Indian of HTT-40 showing its true capabilities on the way to full certification and user acceptance.

But I have a query - its service ceiling and range is much less than that of PC-7, its closest competitor. (I got the data from Wikipedia) Is it simply because of its more powerful (heavy) engine?

Is this going to be a major disadvantage in its selection for the present role or future development?
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Jyoti, that is incorrect. Please refer to below....

Image
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Haridas wrote:Are you implying while hot fueling in progress, change of crew too? Very unlikely imho.
Haridas-ji, quotes in the tweet are not mine. I just reproduce them.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
Haridas wrote:Are you implying while hot fueling in progress, change of crew too? Very unlikely imho.
Haridas-ji, quotes in the tweet are not mine. I just reproduce them.
what's so complicated with a crew change during hot refuelling as long as set SOPs are followed.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chetak »

PratikDas wrote:
Haridas wrote: Are you implying while hot fueling in progress, change of crew too? Very unlikely imho.
I think the suggested improvement is that instructor and trainee aren't limited to one sortie due to fuel load and can quickly get back in the air to try and improve upon technique used or not used in the earlier flight while that flight's experience is still fresh in the mind, so the trainee gets to have eureka moments sooner.
flight training is not some ad hoc process.

It has a very specific laid down syllabus that is followed.

Deviations, if any are few and far between
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by PratikDas »

chetak wrote:
PratikDas wrote: I think the suggested improvement is that instructor and trainee aren't limited to one sortie due to fuel load and can quickly get back in the air to try and improve upon technique used or not used in the earlier flight while that flight's experience is still fresh in the mind, so the trainee gets to have eureka moments sooner.
flight training is not some ad hoc process.

It has a very specific laid down syllabus that is followed.

Deviations, if any are few and far between
As if that process is set in stone by the Wright brothers. Whatever process exists would have had to work for whatever capabilities the trainers of the time supported. If what you said was the absolute and only truth, the HTT-40, a trainer, would serve no purpose with hot refueling and crew changeover and yet they thought of building that capability. There is room for improvement even in how people are trained, evidently.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chetak »

PratikDas wrote:
chetak wrote:
flight training is not some ad hoc process.

It has a very specific laid down syllabus that is followed.

Deviations, if any are few and far between
As if that process is set in stone by the Wright brothers. Whatever process exists would have had to work for whatever capabilities the trainers of the time supported. If what you said was the absolute and only truth, the HTT-40, a trainer, would serve no purpose with hot refueling and crew changeover and yet they thought of building that capability. There is room for improvement even in how people are trained, evidently.
mea culpa. I was not clear.


For the Indian Armed Forces, flight training is not some ad hoc process.

For the Indian Armed Forces, it has a very specific laid down syllabus that is followed. The syllabus varies specifically as per the training being done.

Training resources are commensurate with the expected outcome of the training and the latter dictates the sophistication of the former.

And in the Indian Armed Forces, deviations if any, to set procedures are few and far between. These procedures are laid down after much experience, forethought, and topical research.

If changes are to be done, there is a set procedure to do that too.

As is, I am very sure, the case with any armed forces in the world which operate aircraft.
Last edited by chetak on 27 Jan 2020 05:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by PratikDas »

chetak wrote: mea culpa. I was not clear.


For the Indian Armed Forces, flight training is not some ad hoc process.

For the Indian Armed Forces, it has a very specific laid down syllabus that is followed. The syllabus varies specifically as per the training being done.

And in the Indian Armed Forces, deviations if any, to set procedures are few and far between. These procedures are laid down after much experience, thought and topical research.

If changes are to be done, there is a set procedure to do that too.

As I am very sure, this is the case with any armed forces in the world which operate aircraft.
I agree that there would be a lot more inertia to changing the ways of working in the Indian Armed Forces. But you cannot tell me that a student at basic flight training school, even the Armed Force's, wouldn't benefit from more intensive training. It's a totally different matter that factors external to the capability of the aircraft, such as budgets and legacy procedures designed for legacy aircraft, don't allow for more intensive training.

It would be best if Armed Force ego and "not invented here" attitude didn't come in the way of ingenuity from HAL.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chetak »

PratikDas wrote:
chetak wrote: mea culpa. I was not clear.


For the Indian Armed Forces, flight training is not some ad hoc process.

For the Indian Armed Forces, it has a very specific laid down syllabus that is followed. The syllabus varies specifically as per the training being done.

And in the Indian Armed Forces, deviations if any, to set procedures are few and far between. These procedures are laid down after much experience, thought and topical research.

If changes are to be done, there is a set procedure to do that too.

As I am very sure, this is the case with any armed forces in the world which operate aircraft.
I agree that there would be a lot more inertia to changing the ways of working in the Indian Armed Forces. But you cannot tell me that a student at basic flight training school, even the Armed Force's, wouldn't benefit from more intensive training. It's a totally different matter that factors external to the capability of the aircraft, such as budgets and legacy procedures designed for legacy aircraft, don't allow for more intensive training.

It would be best if Armed Force ego and "not invented here" attitude didn't come in the way of ingenuity from HAL.
For basic flight training, everyone gets the same number of flight hours which is designed to produce a decently competent pilot in a set number of flight hours.

Some don't make it, some very few may benefit and so a few extra hours may be allotted to these cases to see if they can cope and make the grade. Like one or two hours maybe. If not they are also out

If anyone is given endless hours of training, eventually a deaf, dumb and blind guy may one day also learn to fly.

If one can ride a cycle, there are overwhelmingly bright chances that one can also be taught to fly but flight training hours are a very expensive commodity and every trainee has only a set amount of hours that are allotted to him, give or take (for a re scrub candidate)

This process works very well and is used more or less in the same way worldwide

Armed Force ego and "not invented here" attitude is a myth.

re HAL and the Armed Forces:

One produces aeroplanes but doesn't use them operationally

The other is the operational authority and they do not make aeroplanes.

The competencies of each one are vastly different as indeed would be the individual organizational requirements and enterprise objectives.

A venn diagram may, IMHO, intersect marginally, if at all.

so don't go painting with a broad brush on walls that you may know little of.

My last on this.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by PratikDas »

Same old re-hashed arguments ad nauseum for a couple of decades now. Basically any excuse to justify inertia.
chetak wrote: This process works very well and is used more or less in the same way worldwide
How many air forces have a basic trainer that can hot refuel and change crew while the engine is running?

That's my last on this.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by ramana »

Folks the plane is on track. Don't get into useless fights.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Folks the plane is on track. Don't get into useless fights.
ramana saar,

hot refueling and crew change during hot refueling are the attributes of the well briefed crews and the scrupulous following of established SOPs.

How is it an attribute of the aircraft.

The ability to change the prop pitch is anyway available as a feature of the turboprop aircraft.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Indranil »

I am sorry, but the discussion here has gone off the track. These capabilities have nothing to do with syllabus. There is no way a student goes back into the air without a debrief after his lesson. For every flight hour each student spends many hours of studying.

This is about how much more one can derive out of the aircraft. An engine's life is derived out of two parameters, a fixed number of cycles and total flight time, whichever happens earlier. In the case of basic trainers, where each sortie is quite short, number of cycles always gets exhausted first. With this hot refueling each engine can be used to its maximum flight time. The life of other accessories like engine starters is also increased. in this way, the pupil-to-aircraft ratio can be significantly increased. Consequently more number of students can be graduated with less number of aircrafts.

Hot refueling can be useful in CAS roles.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chetak »

Indranil wrote:I am sorry, but the discussion here has gone off the track. These capabilities have nothing to do with syllabus. There is no way a student goes back into the air without a debrief after his lesson. For every flight hour each student spends many hours of studying.

This is about how much more one can derive out of the aircraft. An engine's life is derived out of two parameters, a fixed number of cycles and total flight time, whichever happens earlier. In the case of basic trainers, where each sortie is quite short, number of cycles always gets exhausted first. With this hot refueling each engine can be used to its maximum flight time. The life of other accessories like engine starters is also increased. in this way, the pupil-to-aircraft ratio can be significantly increased. Consequently more number of students can be graduated with less number of aircrafts.

Hot refueling can be useful in CAS roles.
Very true.

Multiple starts are hard on the internal battery if that is being used for all starts.

Starters are usually swapped out/serviced on a calendar/flying hour basis and these days all of them are starter generators. Rare to find separate starters and generators now. One accessory and multiple functions.

On the Do 228 for example, the starter switches to generator mode when the engine reaches 55% and the engine is already self sustaining by then.

BTW, the "fixed number of cycles" needs to be re checked. :)
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Philip »

How many prototypes have we built? Would more shorten the testing time,faster certification?
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Indranil »

There are two prototypes. There is no point of building another one now. The aircraft is almost at the verge of certification.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by deejay »

Haridas wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1221104381220683782 ---> Little things that matter Big time. Hot refueling HTT-40. No other trainers possess. Continuous operations throughout the day. Only 1xTRS over 8-10 sorties during the day. Imagine graduating dozens of additional pilots every year with this enhancement.
Are you implying while hot fueling in progress, change of crew too? Very unlikely imho.
I think while the Instructor continues sitting, the trainee can be changed.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Indranil »

chetak wrote: BTW, the "fixed number of cycles" needs to be re checked. :)
I am pretty sure of it :D. This is directly from Honeywell. Please click here. I have quoted the parts pertinent to this discussion.
....
Likewise, numerous takeoffs and landings within only one engine start and one engine shutdown had historically been considered as one cycle; i.e. the additional takeoff and landing events had been ignored in the cycle calculations because no additional engine start and shutdown had occurred.
....
Service Bulletin TPE/TSE331-72-0019, for example, explains what engine components are life limited and thus require a Life Limited Part Log, which tracks flight hours, cycles, and maintenance performed over the life of the engine.

Recently, Alert Service Bulletin TPE331-A72-2130 warned TPE331 operators who are engaged in special-use operation that they must change the methodology of counting cycles. For the purpose of that service bulletin, special-use operation is defined as performing multiple takeoff and landings for each engine start/shutdown cycle.

The reason for this change is that “multiple takeoff and landing cycles without engine shutdown are minor cycles and result in LCF damage to the turbine wheels that is additive to the fatigue damage caused by a major cycle (engine start, takeoff, and landing and engine shutdown). The additive LCF damage can lead to an uncontained separation of the turbine wheel prior to the accumulated number of major cycles specified in Service Bulletin TPE331-72-0019. Such a separation could involve ejection of metal fragments from the engine and could cause serious injury or death to personnel and damage to the aircraft.” (Alert Service Bulletin TPE331-A72-2130, page 5)

To sum up, if you are engaged in special-use operations, such as multiple takeoffs and landings within one engine start and one engine shutdown, you must adjust your engine cycle count by adding a fraction of a cycle for each additional takeoff and landing. The amount of the fraction, also called damage fraction, varies with each turbine stage and is thoroughly explained in the alert service bulletin.
Deejay wrote: I think while the Instructor continues sitting, the trainee can be changed.
Both can change. They have tested this multiple times now. The chalks go in, the props are feathered, instructor and pilot exit the plane from the back of the wing. New instructor and pilot embark the aircraft in the same way. The fuel guys come from the side of the wing. It is perfectly safe.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by ramana »

chetak/deejay,
Don't mind lekin why this feature of changing crew while hot refueling a requirement?
Of what practical use is this?
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Abhibhushan »

Too much confusion about refuelling and crew change with the engine running.

Hot refuelling is safety design factor. If you design the refuelling activity to be safe while the engine(s) are running then there is no bar to hot refuelling. HTT-40 has achieved this; kudos to the designers.

Similarly, crew changeover with the engine running is dependent on the safety considerations for the activity. This is not related to hot refuelling capability of the aircraft. The factors are like.

* Does the the process bring you in front of an air intake?
* If so, can a debris protector be placed on the affected intake while the change over takes place?

It is a common practice for training aircraft that carry enough fuel for multiple sorties. I have done it in Tiger moths, Harvard’s, HT2, Prentice, Kiran I.

For considering the use of multiple sorties, one must remember that there are many structural elements and LRUs that are life-controlled independently. Some of these lives (like that of a tyre) can be pretty short. Thus, availability of hot refuelling may not always lead to unrestricted flying.
Last edited by Abhibhushan on 28 Jan 2020 11:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by ramana »

Thanks saar.
Clear as usual.
Basically two unrelated features proofed.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:chetak/deejay,
Don't mind lekin why this feature of changing crew while hot refueling a requirement?
Of what practical use is this?
Don't see much utility in this feature unless it is to tout some glossy brochure "capabilities" to wow the natives.


Even hot refuelling is not of much utility in training.

It may be of some utility in the case of operations in COIN and AOP roles in the field under rough conditions.

The entire controversy started because of some misunderstood concept of "intensive" training.

This feature has more relevance in regional commercial operations in the boondocks where the ATR, for example, has the concept of the "hotel mode". Passengers, cargo etc can be handled with one engine running. Saves on airfield infrastructure like starting carts, airconditioning carts etc.
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