HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

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suryag
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby suryag » 14 Aug 2020 04:41

I disagree KS sir that the Chief cannot do anything. The job of a chief doesnt start after he becomes the chief. His job starts when he becomes an Air Commodore and gets stationed at Air HQ. There are two jobs that any senior officer( GTE commodore) is supposed to accomplish improve operational readiness/tactics and work on the future of the force. If the latter were to be done from that rank they already know and have probably built relationships with HAL or any other supplier. They would also be sitting through various meetings where they can infuse this expectation with HAL in the meeting and also advise their higher ups, as they rise they get a larger role. Point being by the time an officer becomes the Chief he already knows the landscape very well and can influence a lot of things. Again we are looking for leaders who can work the landscape and get things done and not just task masters.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Aug 2020 10:42

suryag wrote:I disagree KS sir that the Chief cannot do anything. The job of a chief doesnt start after he becomes the chief. His job starts when he becomes an Air Commodore and gets stationed at Air HQ. There are two jobs that any senior officer( GTE commodore) is supposed to accomplish improve operational readiness/tactics and work on the future of the force. If the latter were to be done from that rank they already know and have probably built relationships with HAL or any other supplier. They would also be sitting through various meetings where they can infuse this expectation with HAL in the meeting and also advise their higher ups, as they rise they get a larger role. Point being by the time an officer becomes the Chief he already knows the landscape very well and can influence a lot of things. Again we are looking for leaders who can work the landscape and get things done and not just task masters.



Suryag Sir,

I did not say "cannot do" I said "will not do".

OUr system does not encourage people who are really forward thinkers.

REgards

S

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby tsarkar » 14 Aug 2020 14:41

suryag wrote:TSarkar ji all good points you make but unfortunately the three arms MoD, HAL and IAF need to be blamed for the Pilatus PC-7 decision. So long ago there used to be a program to re-engine the deepak with a turboprop. That was not pursued by any of the arms above except for HAL making some noise. Then came the turn of HTT35( ?) which was a full new design with Turboprop engine. Again this was not pursued although the mockup was ready by 1994.
https://www.facebook.com/IADnews/photos ... 145771567/


Yes, I completely agree with the first sentence. In my response to your question in the Tejas thread, I am putting thoughts on obsolescence planning that is totally absent in the services. Given that tenures are on an average 3 years, its seen to be as the next person's problem. The next person's ego is also terribly hurt if his predecessor has planned what he is supposed to do and has taken away his decision making powers.

Its like knowing my son will turn 18 in next 5 years, I ask Hero Honda to develop a bike. Son gets angry after 5 years saying he didnt get a choice between Bajaj, TVS & Hero Honda.

Atleast we've moved from the L1 cost of acquisition to L1 Life Cycle Costs and that leads to better financial planning.

And yes, the Luytens Corruption Coterie will skim everything. Whether critical trainers or AEW&C. Even in Indigenous programs like AEW&C of which we needed dozens yesterday.

We also need to buy geopolitically (Israeli Phalcon ordered by China or Russian Type 1135.6 frigates that Pakistan showed interest in) to keep them out of hands of our opponents.

Regarding the HTT-34, it didnt solve the problem of fuel starvation in certain flight regimes. The HPT-32 upgrade to HTT-34 followed the Indian Navy upgrade path of BN-2 Islander to BN-2T Turbo Islander including the very same engines.

Though in hindsight after the HS748 crash, the Phalcon was the only option we had. Same with the Type 1135.6 when we needed a modern design template that also lent design influence on the Shivalik class.

The Islanders with the same engines didnt face the fuel starvation issue and served Indian Navy well for 30 years and thereafter were donated to Myanmar.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/my ... VcXIP.html
https://www2.irrawaddy.com/article.php?art_id=5417 Photo in local news in Myanmar service

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Aug 2020 15:21

I think we are just making it HAL- IAF thing, but it was the way the whole GOI- commission making Mafia/ media which operated within and outside India and still operate - trying to destroy local R&D to help their gravy trains. We dont seem to operate and level this mafia will go to sell the country.

It is clear from the entire PC-7, HTT-32, HTT35 HTT 40 episode.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby KSingh » 14 Aug 2020 20:55

tsarkar wrote:
KSingh wrote:when CAS NAK Browne had briefed the media agaisnt the HTT-40 and said IAF was committed to the PC-7 only. How things change when you bring about new civilian leadership, now extrapolate this to other projects.

You are making an incorrect statement against ACM NAK Browne. Please retract it.

The HPT-32 Deepak had a notorious safety record of 17 crashes and 19 fatalities. That included a lady cadet on her solo. One needs extremely reliable and forgiving flying machines for young cadets.

The PC-7 was purchased in an emergency. It has zero safety incidents since its induction including 100's of solo flights by trainee pilots.

At that point of time HAL came up with HTT-40 idea. Confidence in HAL was very low given the HTT-32 performance as well as the IJT-36 Sitara program. That program is still in doldrums. The PC-7 purchase was necessary and no funds could be diverted from it for a development program.

Fortunately HAL made the correct decision of using its own funds and turning around a successful program. And on completion of certification, it will be inducted.

Now a bit of common sense about development programs.

When a child is conceived, an embryo created, a fetus developed or a baby is born, IIT's dont start offering seats to it and Google doesnt make job offers to it. Because one doesnt know how the baby will turn out to be. Maybe Sachin Tendulkar. Maybe Vinod Kambli.

As the baby grows, completes its education and passes all the relevant exams and interviews (FOC), then it starts a job.

Just as a Google Hiring Manager wont be impressed by how many cute baby photos one posts on Twitter & Facebook along with comments of how good the baby is, similarly an operational leader in the IAF wont be impressed by how many glossy photos one puts up of under development aircraft.

Expecting ACM NAC Browne or other decision makers to jump with joy in 2013 in meaningless.

Once performance is proven, they would definitely be happy to induct it. But not when its capabilities are unproven.

If that upsets internet posters of cute baby photos and positive baby comments, then honestly they couldnt be bothered less.

It’s not incorrect, you can find multiple sources that have CAS Browne saying the HTT-40 was not wanted by the IAF and he was pushing for more PC-7s

https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... 62467?s=21


In fact it seems as though Browne went much further than simply stating a preference but manipulated official records within the MoD so as to favour the PC-7
https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... 25984?s=21

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby MeshaVishwas » 14 Aug 2020 21:00

OT:
Yes the entire Pilatus deal was "Dal mein kuch kaala" type. I remember even the Koreans were up in arms about the process.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Indranil » 15 Aug 2020 01:08

I will say this IAF tried everything at that time to kill HTT-40! We can't run away from that fact.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby KSingh » 15 Aug 2020 01:18

Indranil wrote:I will say this IAF tried everything at that time to kill HTT-40! We can't run away from that fact.

Same story with Arjun and the army, I have never seen the kind of hatred towards defence products as I have seen directed towards some DRDO/HAL products and it’s explicitly becuase of the armed forces community and their selective leaking

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Cybaru » 15 Aug 2020 01:57

I don't know the answer to this question @tsarkar, so perhaps you can educate us.

How many cadets are taken in each year and how is the BTA allocated for training? Is it a 1:1 trainee : aircraft? How many hours does each cadet get? What do they graduate from BTA to? How is the requirement for 181 created?

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Vivek K » 15 Aug 2020 02:57

KSingh wrote:
Indranil wrote:I will say this IAF tried everything at that time to kill HTT-40! We can't run away from that fact.

Same story with Arjun and the army, I have never seen the kind of hatred towards defence products as I have seen directed towards some DRDO/HAL products and it’s explicitly becuase of the armed forces community and their selective leaking

Imagine the economic benefits of the Arjun and future payoffs of improved products and homegrown production lines. Churn equipment at will! But nooooo! We are SDREI onleeeeeee! Zo, no AARjuun!!! Zimble.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby chetak » 15 Aug 2020 03:11

MeshaVishwas wrote:OT:
Yes the entire Pilatus deal was "Dal mein kuch kaala" type. I remember even the Koreans were up in arms about the process.


you mean "Dal mein much kaala" type, no

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby suryag » 15 Aug 2020 03:17

Folks - no more defence corruption etc on this thread lets restrict ourselves to HTT-40. BTW, does anyone know what are the remaining TPs towards IOC.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby KSingh » 15 Aug 2020 06:19

Vivek K wrote:
KSingh wrote:Same story with Arjun and the army, I have never seen the kind of hatred towards defence products as I have seen directed towards some DRDO/HAL products and it’s explicitly becuase of the armed forces community and their selective leaking

Imagine the economic benefits of the Arjun and future payoffs of improved products and homegrown production lines. Churn equipment at will! But nooooo! We are SDREI onleeeeeee! Zo, no AARjuun!!! Zimble.

The most distasteful part is the bait and switch tactic that was employed- DRDO says they will localise all spares and bring down unit cost by upwards of 50% if they get an order for 500, army orders 124 units and then cites a lack of spares and high unit cost as justification to order more T90s to the tune of >500 and don’t even get me started on the ‘heavyweight’ distraction.


This whilst you have the guys that operate the Arjun raving about their ‘desert Ferrari’.


You are absolutely right about the economic benefits though, these projects create entire ecosystems around them, LCA for example has dozens of Indian private tier 2/3 suppliers. It’s high time Indian politicians started to see defence as a wealth creator and also a job creator, offsets and licence assembly don’t capture even 50% of what can be achieved by IDDM.

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Re: Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Postby basant » 23 Sep 2020 21:58

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1308793234458460166 --->

8-turn spins completed
Spin-chute removed
Pretty picture this...

Image

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Rakesh » 24 Sep 2020 18:25

^^^ Tweets in response to HVT Sir's tweet above...

Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (retd)
https://twitter.com/BahadurManmohan/sta ... 23072?s=20 ---> This is ONE GOOD NEWS. Now for bureaucracy, military, MoD and Ministry of Finance, to do their bit for induction. BTW, a spin is one manoeuvre that I loved doing in the HT-2. Can I get a customer ride on this?

Group Captain MJA Vinod (retd)
https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/130 ... 03873?s=20 ---> HVT, time to produce in numbers and induction into IAF. Hope no more changing goalposts by them.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Rakesh » 24 Sep 2020 18:26

Great news and beautiful shot! Wow!

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby tsarkar » 24 Sep 2020 23:53

Cybaru wrote:I don't know the answer to this question @tsarkar, so perhaps you can educate us.

An IAF person can explain better. However from my understanding, here are my responses,

Cybaru wrote:how is the BTA allocated for training? Is it a 1:1 trainee : aircraft?

It is many:many with a higher ratio of trainees to instructors and aircraft. It is not just aircraft availability but instructor availability as well. Trainer aircraft do take a lot of wear and tear (like a normal person when trying to learn riding a bicycle or bike) and the ability of an aircraft to be repaired quickly is important to enable trainees log more hours.

Cybaru wrote:How many hours does each cadet get?


https://www.indiastrategic.in/topstorie ... _Force.htm
Flying training in the Indian Air Force is structured on a three stage progression curriculum i.e. Basic, Intermediate and Advanced stages.

- Basic Stage: The basic stage is where pilots get their first lessons in flying and build psycho motor skills. This stage usually employs a piston engine or turbo-prop aircraft, which is simple to fly and maintain. It serves the purpose of ab initio training in an economical way. Trainees acquire basic flying skills and learn to manage a flying machine albeit at the lower end of the speed band. The emphasis is on learning basic manoeuvres, take-off and landing. Training comprises 55 to 60 hours per trainee in a six month period.

- Intermediate Stage: The Intermediate stage entails 24 weeks of flying a turboprop or a jet engine aircraft in the intermediate speed range. Pilots consolidate their basic skills and learn simple tactical manoeuvres before progressing to the advanced stage. The Global trend is for pilots to fly about 120 hours of piston engine or turbo-prop flying prior to proceeding for jet engine flying in the advanced stage. In the IAF pilots graduate to jet flying in about 60 hours. This is because intermediate trainers have been jet engine whereas the world over preference is for turboprops.

- Advanced Stage: Advanced stage readies a pilot to join a combat squadron and fly operational missions. The quality of training governs the pilot’s combat skill, proficiency, attitude and orientation towards war fighting. Training entails learning complex tactical manoeuvres for aerial combat and for ground attack across the full spectrum of speeds in the subsonic range. The offensive/defensive manoeuvring and war orientation imparted at this stage forms the foundation for the front line fighter squadron’s to build on further and get the pilots war ready.


Cybaru wrote:What do they graduate from BTA to?


https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/training-command

In July 2013, Pilatus PC-7 Mk-II aircraft was inducted for Stage-I training and the 194 Pilot’s Course was the first course to train on the new aircraft. The same has continued ever since.

On completion of Stage I at AFA, the trainees are trifurcated. Fighter trainees move to FTW at Hakimpet and fly the Kiran. Transport trainees move to Yelahanka and train on the Dornier Do-228 & An-32. Helicopter trainees move to HTS at Hakimpet and train on the Chetak. On completion of Stage-II, the trainees are commissioned and awarded wings. After commissioning, the fighter trainees move to Stage-III at Bidar for further six months on Hawk followed by another six months at Kalaikunda before moving on to Operational Squadrons. Transport pilots continue training on Dornier & An-32 at Yelahanka and then move on to the Operational Squadrons. Helicopter trainees carry out their Stage III training on Chetak at HTS or on Mi-17 at Yelahanka before moving to operational squadrons.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby tsarkar » 25 Sep 2020 00:01

Love the chunky landing gear and twin nose wheel in contrast to the Deepak

Image

What is remaining for IOC & FOC? Great work by HVT in successfully spinning the bird.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Cyrano » 25 Sep 2020 16:15

Hopefully in a few years, Tejas Mk1/A Trainers will replace Hawks as well.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby sankum » 25 Sep 2020 16:20

The hawks will fulfill the AJT role in IAF till 2050.


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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Postby Rakesh » 24 Nov 2020 22:38

https://twitter.com/KUNALBI25146617/sta ... 90816?s=20 ---> Here is a beautiful snap from the cockpit of HTT-40. Better glass cockpit than Pilatus PC-7 in Indian Air Force. 106 x HTT-40 will be in the IAF. Unlike the PC-7, the Indian bird can be armed with laser guided bombs, rockets and cannon. Hope to see some in Army Aviation someday.

Image


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