HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

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rrao
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by rrao »

http://www.thrustaircraft.com/
Thrust Aircraft Private Limited
Address: C001, RDP Rd Number 6, Lilac Garden, Opposite to Metro Link, Ganesh Chowk, Sector 3, charkop, Kandivali west, near United Bank, Mumbai, Maharashtra 400067
Atmavik
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Atmavik »

This is not the right thread for this discussion. but we do need to encourage the efforts of such companies.

can Mods create a "design ur own small plane" on the lines of "Design your own Fighter" thread ?
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Indranil »

V_Raman wrote:please make a twin-engined version of HTT-40 like plane for the hobby flying market - make it land on dirt tracks - something like this - https://www.vulcanair.com/p68c
Twin engine commuters are present or being developed, aka 228 civil and Saras Mk2. You could ask, can HAL develop a single engine commuter like PC-12.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by V_Raman »

If there is a good twin engined plane <10 crore range - then indians would lap it up given good cheap landing coverage. people can get in ride share model too and use it. key is affordable parking/landing infra and fuel. i guess it can run on petrol to avoid aviation fuel. There are many private bus operators who have 100s of buses and some of the buses cost 5-6 crores already. these kind of flying services would pop up quickly with good plane and infra.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by AkshaySG »

V_Raman wrote:If there is a good twin engined plane <10 crore range - then indians would lap it up given good cheap landing coverage. people can get in ride share model too and use it. key is affordable parking/landing infra and fuel. i guess it can run on petrol to avoid aviation fuel. There are many private bus operators who have 100s of buses and some of the buses cost 5-6 crores already. these kind of flying services would pop up quickly with good plane and infra.
uhhh i don't think i'd be very keen on taking a ride on many of of those , Looking at how maintanence work is done on even those expensive buses and they way tour operators run them ragged i'd rather air transport remain a tightly regulated industry with only those that have the necessary experience being able to undertake .It would be helpful if the Saras or any other similar design increases connectivity bw tier 2 and tier 3 cities but only with proper DGCA compliant airlines

As far as the HTT 40 goes then the best scope for it is for flight schools around the country and abroad
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by chetak »

AkshaySG wrote:
V_Raman wrote:If there is a good twin engined plane <10 crore range - then indians would lap it up given good cheap landing coverage. people can get in ride share model too and use it. key is affordable parking/landing infra and fuel. i guess it can run on petrol to avoid aviation fuel. There are many private bus operators who have 100s of buses and some of the buses cost 5-6 crores already. these kind of flying services would pop up quickly with good plane and infra.
uhhh i don't think i'd be very keen on taking a ride on many of of those , Looking at how maintanence work is done on even those expensive buses and they way tour operators run them ragged i'd rather air transport remain a tightly regulated industry with only those that have the necessary experience being able to undertake .It would be helpful if the Saras or any other similar design increases connectivity bw tier 2 and tier 3 cities but only with proper DGCA compliant airlines

As far as the HTT 40 goes then the best scope for it is for flight schools around the country and abroad
aviation turbine fuel is doubly refined kerosine with some additives to manage the flashpoint. The most widely used fuel worldwide used is ATF K-50

AVGAS is the aviation petrol you are talking about and is less volatile, but is also very expensive.

ordinary petrol is difficult to manage and will not produce the required power.

Diesel engines have been tried out on some aircraft during the early days and they seem to have worked well but did not become popular because other fuelled engines were easier to work with.

planes are simply too expensive to fly in the ride share mode as you seem to have understood it.

There are a few companies that allow you to use the aircraft for a certain number of hours per year for a very hefty fee and many rich guys or companies join up in such schemes. These are not very popular or even cheap, if you do a cost benefit analysis.
Bart S
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Bart S »

All this discussion about small commercial turboprops is a waste of time and has nothing to do with the HTT40. People in the market for those kinds of planes have good options to start with like the PC12, Daher and Beechcraft planes and it is an ultra-competitive market where reputation, word of mouth reviews, resale value and perception of reliability and safety are huge factors. The civilian market is very very difficult to crack.

Staying on topic for this thread, it would be better if they developed the HTT-40 further instead of these kinds of distractions. Apart from getting it to FOC, they should be working on an uprated variant with more functionality (aerodynamics and avionics) that let it compete with the PC21 type advanced trainer - this is something that is actually useful, both to us and to a lot of other militaries. That class of aircraft can also be modified to be a Super Tucano competitor, that we can use for homeland defense and sell to a lot of smaller militaries.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Kartik »

From HVT's Twitter

Image
Image
Kartik
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Kartik »

HTT-40 coming in to land.

Image

Image credit - Gaur.aviation
raghava
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by raghava »

Kartik wrote:HTT-40 coming in to land.

Image credit - Gaur.aviation
Gurus, could someone please educate me as to what the doors on the bottom rear of the plane are ? ... appears to be some kind of bay...

In the last few weeks, so many beautiful pics of the HTT-40 have been posted - and in most of these pics, those doors are open and hanging down even in flight
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Kartik »

raghava wrote:
Kartik wrote:HTT-40 coming in to land.

Image credit - Gaur.aviation
Gurus, could someone please educate me as to what the doors on the bottom rear of the plane are ? ... appears to be some kind of bay...

In the last few weeks, so many beautiful pics of the HTT-40 have been posted - and in most of these pics, those doors are open and hanging down even in flight
What door are you referring to? Not the white surface that is right below the vertical stabilizer (tail), right?
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Kartik »

Image

Image credit - Gaur.aviation
raghava
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by raghava »

Kartik wrote:
What door are you referring to? Not the white surface that is right below the vertical stabilizer (tail), right?
That's the one, Kartik saar. What is it, please do tell.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Kartik »

That's just a fixed ventral fin for lateral stability at higher speeds. May also help with spin recovery, though I'm not sure of that.

It's common in a lot of fighters, including the F-16, which has 2 which were added for improved lateral stability at supersonic speeds. Bandar has 2 as well. MiG-23 and MiG-27 had a folding ventral fin due to it's tail heavy posture.

Image
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by raghava »

Kartik wrote:That's just a fixed ventral fin for lateral stability at higher speeds. May also help with spin recovery, though I'm not sure of that.

It's common in a lot of fighters, including the F-16, which has 2 which were added for improved lateral stability at supersonic speeds. Bandar has 2 as well. MiG-23 and MiG-27 had a folding ventral fin due to it's tail heavy posture.
thanks for explaining what that was Kartik saar.

Mine was probably the mother of all noob questions ever asked on BRF; but I will be honest with you - these last few days looking at these pics, i was thinking these were doors that HAL for some reason were refusing to close and it was taking away the TFTA'ness of this beautiful aircraft :D
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Avinandan »

You are correct, atleast the previous twin ventral fins were more pleasing to the eyes. Refer page 1 for photos.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by srai »

X-posting
Manish_P wrote:^ Here it is..
Faced with an acute shortage, the air force is seeking to lease at least 20 basic trainer aircraft for training pilots, with a request for information sent out to global vendors earlier this month. The plan to lease aircraft to meet immediate requirements come even as the current fleet of Pilatus PC 7 basic trainer aircraft are facing serviceability issues, given that the parent company has been banned from India on corruption allegations.

The leased aircraft – a first for the air force under a new policy – will fill the gap of three to four years when the indigenous HTT 40 basic trainer is expected to join service in significant numbers. Earlier, plans to order additional PC 7s had been cancelled after the company got embroiled in an official investigation.

The request for information to vendors specifies that preference will be given to Indian companies for the contract, though global entities have been invited to participate. It specifies that the air force needs a trainer that can undertake four to six sorties a day for intensive training of pilots. It also requires the leasing company to maintain the aircraft during the duration of service and provide a simulator for pilots as well.

“The BTA (Basic trainer aircraft) would be used for imparting ab-initio training to pilots in IAF. The aircraft will be operated for military training purpose from an IAF base,” it specifies, adding that the plan is for `training requirements for an initial period of three to four years extendable in batches of two years’.

The air force is facing a shortage of basic and intermediate trainers, though it has adequate number of advanced trainers in service. At present 260 trainer aircraft are in service for training of pilots, besides 14 helicopters and 26 Dorniers and 16 An 32 aircraft for transport pilots. The air force is also short of 405 pilots against the sanctioned strength of 4239 officers. Besides plans to induct additional trainers, the air force is also opening a new selection centre in Guwahati from next month that will increase the intake capacity.

How far along HTT-40 from certification and orders/contract signature? It would seem HAL may have to use its own funds to start building HTT-40 like with LCH.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Pratyush »

How many vendors would just have trainers available for the short notice notice. And what happens to them when the IAF lease expires.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by srai »

^^^
Sounds like it’s another way to get access to more Pilatus
Vivek K
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Vivek K »

Exactly! Imports over local by hook or crook!
basant
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by basant »

From Twitter: HTT-40 completes spin certification flight testing. It has already demonstrated ten turn spins and ready for operational clearance

Image
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by RKumar »

Congrats to everyone involved. Another nail in the import coffin :mrgreen:
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Get ready for the usual excuses;

1) The windscreen is not thick enough
2) It does not have a turbofan
3) It cannot fire Meteor
4) It is too heavy

Need to order more PC-7s to make up the shortfall of airframes for basic training.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by fanne »

So what is the latest on this basic trainer business-

- How many are needed
-Are we leasing some more PC-7s?
-pc-7 BLACKLISTED?
-Any outstanding grouse from IAF? (As in if they do not have any plan B?)
- Any true shortcoming/compromises?
- How fast can it be made from date of order?
- Engine - any issues with import etc?
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Vips »

Are there any more air force officers who are ready to peddle disinfo about HTT-40?

Remember last time the air force officer had blatantly lied about the supposed cost of HTT-40 to justify import of more numbers of PC7. He was conveniently appointed as an ambassador by the (Con)gress government shortly after his retirement.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Pratyush »

The IAF this time is on board. They have shared RFP with HAL for potentially 108 aircrafts.

This is the most welcome development.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by KSingh »

Pratyush wrote:The IAF this time is on board. They have shared RFP with HAL for potentially 108 aircrafts.

This is the most welcome development.
Most welcome but given the LCH LSP debacle the proof of the pudding will be the eating. Will IAF really give them the full 108 contract from day one?
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Haridas »

Rakesh wrote:Get ready for the usual excuses;

1) The windscreen is not thick enough
2) It does not have a turbofan
3) It cannot fire Meteor
4) It is too heavy

Need to order more PC-7s to make up the shortfall of airframes for basic training.
It is too slow. Weak ingin, thus can't fly Mach 2.

It does not even have a lavatory? Ebil Mudy must rizine.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by YashG »

Haridas wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Get ready for the usual excuses;

1) The windscreen is not thick enough
2) It does not have a turbofan
3) It cannot fire Meteor
4) It is too heavy

Need to order more PC-7s to make up the shortfall of airframes for basic training.
It is too slow. Weak ingin, thus can't fly Mach 2.

It does not even have a lavatory? Ebil Mudy must rizine.
"Ebil mudy must rizine" if he cant make sure that IAF orders HTT40 & LCH (Shud hv been ordered yesterday) in earnest. All the more as walking the talk on 'Atmanirbharta'
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Haridas »

"Ebil mudy must rizine" if he cant make sure that IAF orders HTT40 & LCH (Shud hv been ordered yesterday) in earnest. All the more as walking the talk on 'Atmanirbharta'
Wuhan virus has resulted in much reduced tax revenue, people need support,, while needs and expenses of nation has not reduced.

So available money is being used in best possible balance.

We should avoid being holier than pope.

Atmanirbhar Bharat is reality and committed.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Vivek K »

Really? We can find money for imports that are "proven", not for domestic.

If assembly lines are not churning out products, that will lead to losing talent - no one will sit around waiting for "promised" orders coming in 10 years.

Holier than Pope? Or Holier than thou?

Atamnirbhar Bharat seems to be lip service so that the forces can import weapon systems without having to face domestic competition.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by YashG »

Haridas wrote:
"Ebil mudy must rizine" if he cant make sure that IAF orders HTT40 & LCH (Shud hv been ordered yesterday) in earnest. All the more as walking the talk on 'Atmanirbharta'
Wuhan virus has resulted in much reduced tax revenue, people need support,, while needs and expenses of nation has not reduced.

So available money is being used in best possible balance.

We should avoid being holier than pope.

Atmanirbhar Bharat is reality and committed.
If you will say thr is no money for ordering lch/htt40, i can write a whole treatise here why that is not the case but it will be OT.

Trust me there is enough money to buy LCHs/htt40 and that money will even create jobs.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14017 ... 11621?s=20 ---> The Power of One.

Scientists, Engineers, Administrators, Technicians, Helpers, Pilots. Together. Always.

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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Haridas »

YashG wrote:
Haridas wrote: Wuhan virus has resulted in much reduced tax revenue, people need support,, while needs and expenses of nation has not reduced.

So available money is being used in best possible balance.

We should avoid being holier than pope.

Atmanirbhar Bharat is reality and committed.
If you will say thr is no money for ordering lch/htt40, i can write a whole treatise here why that is not the case but it will be OT.

Trust me there is enough money to buy LCHs/htt40 and that money will even create jobs.
You are apparently asking to be trusted becoz you have some source based insight that I do not have. But also consider the possibility that I have even deeper access. So I assert my earlier view for what it may be worth, finally it is upto you to consider it or not. I do no want to impose on you the "trust me" proposition.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Haridas, YashG, I am unable to understand your series of posts.

But I will say only this. If no money exists for htt 40. Then same applies for any imported solution.

If money exists for any imported solution. It can be diverted to htt40.

Right.

Or I have totally missed what both of you are saying.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:Haridas, YashG, I am unable to understand your series of posts.

But I will say only this. If no money exists for htt 40. Then same applies for any imported solution.

If money exists for any imported solution. It can be diverted to htt40.

Right.

Or I have totally missed what both of you are saying.
Yes. Pratyush you're correct.

Additionally, I'm also of the opinion that there is money out there for HTT-40/LCHs to be ordered.
If enemy is at the gates you've to find money to order whats needed- emphasis on 'find' - even if the money isn't available easily.

@Haridasji - I'm asking you to 'trust me' because I do not want to bring in here a discussion on numbers how GoI can find money to order HTT40/LCHs. Because that would need a lot of discussion on fiscal/budgetary policies and what GoI should or shouldn't do but since that will be massively OT, so I just said 'trust me'

Finding that money (for all immediate arming requirements in a swadeshi way) shouldn't be an issue - if arming India for a potential skirmish at border is our number 1 priority.
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Re: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Take special note of who the individual is, that made the second tweet below.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 51364?s=20 ---> 2 other BTT proposals.

1. HTT-34 (1984): converted HPT-32 powered by a turboprop. Even flew in Farnborough.
2. HTT-35 (1993): much improved tandem seat version. Mockup built in 1994.

Neither got any official interest. HPT-32s were finally retired in 2009. PC7s were imported.

https://twitter.com/HTT40PRASHANT/statu ... 64962?s=20 ---> They envisaged a weaponised turbo prop way back…sadly it did'nt go through…we would never have imported a swiss one. Well can't change the past, but we won't let them get another imported one at least for next 50 years plus. HTT-40 and its next generation successors will fill in.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... 85185?s=20 ---> I have followed you and your team since 2011. I know your hardships. Anyways, water under the bridge. Yours is a success story now. Looking forward to an armed HTT-40 and as I have always said a single engined PC-12 equivalent. Well within your reach!
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