HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Aug 2022 18:31

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... YF6ZMI9rGw --->

HAL says it hopes to export 220 HTT-40 trainers to foreign customers in addition to 70 to the IAF.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2022 18:59

There was a report by IDRW today about the HTT 40 being fitted with lithium ion battery for propulsion. But I wasn't able to locate any non IDRW source for same.

wig · Post by **wig** » 02 Aug 2022 20:17

Pratyush ji,
you will find this in the annual report of HAL .
the link is provided hereunder
on page 34/35 of the Annual report for Fin Year 2021-22 you will find it mentioned, "The Company has successfully integrated and flown
‘Lithium Main Battery’ on HTT-40 and making it first time in the continent using lithium battery for military aviation. " under the heading Significant Achievements.

https://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/ ... t_2022.pdf

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2022 20:18

Wig, thanks

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 02 Aug 2022 21:24

Good move there by HAL to fit in a Li-ion Battery in HTT-40. Most likely baby steps being taken to replace the 700KW Honeywell TPE-331 engine that powers the bird.

Last page has details of 88 nos of TPE-331 to be supplied probably for IAF order fulfillment.

All of this sub 1MW electric power propulsion is low hanging fruit and that is where power electronics triumphs over costly investment into gas turbine design.

Armuan · Post by **Armuan** » 03 Aug 2022 09:13

arvin wrote:Good move there by HAL to fit in a Li-ion Battery in HTT-40. Most likely baby steps being taken to replace the 700KW Honeywell TPE-331 engine that powers the bird.

Last page has details of 88 nos of TPE-331 to be supplied probably for IAF order fulfillment.

All of this sub 1MW electric power propulsion is low hanging fruit and that is where power electronics triumphs over costly investment into gas turbine design.

I think the Li-ion batteries are replacement for the Ni-Cad batteries that are currently being used for power systems, not for propulsion.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 03 Aug 2022 09:20

Yes to see a battery powered prop engineed plane!!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Aug 2022 10:46

I meant to see Yes and not Yes!!!

mody · Post by **mody** » 04 Aug 2022 18:17

I don't understand this option clause thing in Indian defense purchases. If the requirement for IAF is for 108 planes, then place the order for the entire lot. Its a basic trainer. Things aren't going to change much. Placing an order for 70 now, with an option clause for 38 later, makes no sense. Placing an order for 38, 3 or 4 years from now, would mean a higher price. HAL would again have to go to Honeywell, to procure around 45 engines, for which the price would obviously be higher, due to inflation and smaller quantity. Same with every other vendor whether domestic or foreign.
Instead if they placed an order for 108 planes, HAL's own price would a little lower and the price negotiated with all the vendors too would be lower.
The total cost of the acquisition in one go, vs. the split procurement, would be much lower. Plus with a larger order, HAL might be able to be able to increase the rate of production too.

IAF should be aware of the exact number of planes it needs for basic trainers. How can the situation change within 3-4 years. These things are going to serve for 30 years.

If the question is about how much funds need to be earmarked for the purchase initially, and MoD and ministry of finance want to reduce this figure, even then it doesn't make sense, as the total cost of the overall procurement would end up being much higher.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 04 Aug 2022 21:42

I'm assuming we may have a replacement for TPE331 in 3/4 years from now and that is why only 88...

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 04 Aug 2022 23:51

^^^Variant of HTSE-1200, same power as TPE331. One stone, two targets. Similar to Ardiden and PT6.

mody · Post by **mody** » 05 Aug 2022 15:51

Changing the engine for 38 planes would not really be feasible. It will require a lot of additional testing for the aircraft. Also, to develop a replacement for the TPE-331 from the HTSE-1200 would require an additional effort.

The option clause buying system is not just limited to HTT-40, it is almost the standard practice for all our purchases, whether systems are domestic or imported. For domestically developed and manufactured systems, this makes no sense as most of the aspects of the product are fully known. If the requirement is firm, then why split the order and increase the cost.

mody · Post by **mody** » 06 Aug 2022 13:10

HAL might license build the Honeywell engines.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/topstor ... 0482aab862

"The High-performing TPE331

Honeywell’s first Turboprop engine, the TPE331 was designed for the military from scratch in 1959. The series has since grown to include 18 engine models and 106 configurations. The MNC claims to have delivered over 13,000 engines to date. Honeywell also maintains that the engine is one of “the most reliable and proven turboprop engines in the world”, with more than 122 million hours of flight time.

The TPE331-12Bs, part of the aforementioned series of powerhouses, have powered the HTT-40 since 2014. This is a single shaft turboprop engine. It possesses an integral inlet and gearbox alongside a two-stage centrifugal compressor. It also features a gearbox, a power turbine, a three-stage axial turbine, a turbine exhaust diffuser, and EEC for power and operational characteristics.

The TPE331-12B boasts a maximum power output of 950 shaft horsepower (shp) and comes equipped with a full-authority digital engine control (FADEC) system as well. The latter combines throttle, prop, and other controls into a single control, enabling pilots to realise fuel economy to an extent earlier considered impossible.

The engine allows the HTT-40 to offer pilots quick acceleration and low-fuel consumption in addition to high reliability and flexibility. The latter two empower the conduction of a wide variety of training missions. Moreover, having a reliable engine also means that HAL has room to develop a range of variants that could potentially deliver higher performance levels.

This engine is the face of HAL’s long-standing relationship with Honeywell and the potential growth story that the two plan on sketching out. "

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 07 Aug 2022 01:48

ks_sachin wrote:Yes to see a battery powered prop engineed plane!!

At most they will be able to provide an hour of endurance, training is perhaps the only real application for battery powered aircraft for the foreseeable future as energy density is still nowhere near suitable to make it viable as a substitute for hydrocarbons. That said I’m not sure the benefits outweigh the cons

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 07 Aug 2022 04:40

KSingh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Yet to see a battery powered prop engineed plane!!
At most they will be able to provide an hour of endurance, training is perhaps the only real application for battery powered aircraft for the foreseeable future as energy density is still nowhere near suitable to make it viable as a substitute for hydrocarbons. That said I’m not sure the benefits outweigh the cons

I know. I am not a newbie.

I meant to say yet.

Plus there was a generous dose of sarcasm incredulity and other such adjectives at the previous poster.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 07 Aug 2022 05:10

ks_sachin wrote:Yes to see a battery powered prop engineed plane!!

https://www.rolls-royce.com/innovation/accel.aspx

Our zero-emission 'Spirit of Innovation' aircraft has achieved a new world record for all-electric flight of 345.4mph

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 07 Aug 2022 08:19

Also this interesting new development - unmanned, but still electric + solar.

Army’s Zephyr Drone Is Still Aloft After 50 Days

The Zephyr stratospheric UAS took off June 15 from Yuma Proving Ground (YPG) for what was originally planned to be a 30-day flight. It has now been aloft for 50 days and “continues to perform beyond expectations,” Madeline Winkler, a spokesperson for the Army Futures Command's Assured Precision Navigation and Timing (APNT) Cross-Functional Team (CFT) told The War Zone in an email yesterday.
...
Built by Airbus, Zephyr S is powered by the sun, with solar panels covering the upper surfaces of its 75-foot wingspan. Weighing about 165 pounds in total, the aircraft carries batteries that are charged during the dayto power flight overnight. Zephyr set the record for sustained UAS flight — 26 days — on this same mission and has now nearly doubled that benchmark.

arvin · Post by **arvin** » 07 Aug 2022 12:49

Eliminating the turbo prop engine will also bring down the thermal signature. Getting a lock might be difficult due to lack of IR emissions. Purely electric powered aircraft might be suitable for light attack role where defence is only guns and MANPADS.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 20 Oct 2022 22:06

The contract for HTT announced in defexpo..HTT 40 you did it.

Contract of 70 @6826Cr announced

https://twitter.com/HTT40PRASHANT/statu ... BrGWg&s=19

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Oct 2022 22:25

ashishvikas wrote:The contract for HTT announced in defexpo..HTT 40 you did it.

Contract of 70 @6826Cr announced

https://twitter.com/HTT40PRASHANT/statu ... BrGWg&s=19

Awesome news. Page 1 updated.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Oct 2022 23:32

The best news to come out of Defexpo.

VickyAvinash · Post by **VickyAvinash** » 20 Oct 2022 23:35

Great news, go swadeshi

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 Oct 2022 00:07

That's awesome news!! Woooot woooooot!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Oct 2022 06:24

Great news.
mody, The Options clause is the right to buy more at the same price because you don't have the money now.
It's standard practice. The supplier knows you could come back for more like Oliver Twist.
And hence makes the plan for the total at his risk.
In IAf case its no risk.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Oct 2022 06:28

This order could not have come at a better time. The PC-7 is reportedly suffering from a lack of spares as per the article below.

Be Forewarned ---> Rahul Bedi article and to make matters worse, it is from The Wire

So take it FWIW....

Explained: What Is HTT-40, the Trainer Aircraft Unveiled by PM Modi at DefExpo?
https://thewire.in/security/explained-h ... di-defexpo
20 Oct 2022

In the meantime, the IAF is reportedly continuing to face serviceability problems with its originally 75-strong Pilatus PC-7 trainer fleet, as it had failed to renew the maintenance contract after the extended warranty for them had expired in December 2016, a year after all their deliveries were completed. Consequently, the IAF was forced into sourcing PC-7 spares and components from the open market at great cost, or alternately, ‘cannibalising’ active trainers to keep the Pilatus fleet operational at the Air Force Academy in Dundigal, near Hyderabad.

prashantsharma · Post by **prashantsharma** » 21 Oct 2022 06:58

How will the IAF,'s training be structured with two basic trainers? Half would go to the Pilatus and half to the HTT?
Has the IAF said anything on this?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Oct 2022 07:02

Training should not get affected by having two different trainers. At the end of the day, regardless of which BTA platform is being used, the laws of flight will stay the same. As long as rookie Pilot Officers complete the required syllabus at the Air Force Academy, all is well.

The issue lies more with maintaining two different types of BTA platforms. That is where the Maintenance Command will have its work cut out. But this is not new territory for the IAF. The service has had a history of operating multiple platforms that perform similar roles. Some examples;

Ground Attack: Jaguar, MiG-23BN, MiG-27ML
Air Superiority: Mirage 2000, MiG-29, Su-30MKI
Attack Helicopters: AH-64, Mi-35, LCH Prachand
Tactical Transport: C-130 and AN-32
Strategic Transport: IL-76 and C-17

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 21 Oct 2022 13:28

IAF-HAL conclude ₹6,800 crore contract for 70 HTT-40 trainer aircraft

The Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on Thursday concluded a ₹6,800 crore contract for 70 HTT-40 indigenous Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA). In all, 451 Memoranda of Understanding (MoU), Transfer of Technology (ToT) agreements and product launches took place during the Bandhan ceremony at the 12th DefExpo.

“Of the 451, there were 345 MoUs, 42 major announcements, 46 product launches and 18 ToTs. The contribution of Gujarat was 28 MoUs and one product launch. It envisages investment worth ₹1.5 lakh crore,” the Defence Ministry said in a statement.

In August 2020, the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) approved the procurement of 106 HTT-40 for the IAF of which post certification 70 BTA will be initially procured from the HAL and balance 36 after operationalisation of HTT-40 fleet in the IAF.

In February 2021, at Aero India, HAL received the Request For Proposal from the IAF for HTT-40 for 70 aircraft with additional clause for 38 more. Production will take place at HAL’s two manufacturing units at Bengaluru and Nasik.

mody · Post by **mody** » 21 Oct 2022 13:47

ramana wrote:Great news.
mody, The Options clause is the right to buy more at the same price because you don't have the money now.
It's standard practice. The supplier knows you could come back for more like Oliver Twist.
And hence makes the plan for the total at his risk.
In IAf case its no risk.

Ramana garu, in IAF, HAL's and Mods case the risk is almost zero. Besides it's not like MoD pays a hefty advance to HAL and all payments are perfectly on time. In the case of imports the options clause makes sense.
For domestic purchase from HAL like PSU's, the risk is very little. However, if the production can be planned for the entire quantity required, it would be big help. Especially now as the number of private sector vendors of HAL is steadily increasing and over the last 10-15 years have increased tremendously.
For a private sector company, if the entire order is placed together, it makes a big difference. You can procure all the raw material together. All the testing and qualification required for the raw material can be done in one go. Ordering 36 additional aircrafts after 2-3 years, simply to save on the money to be paid doesn't make much sense. In such contracts, I don't think any advance is paid to the vendors either. They get paid within the stipulated payment period, after the delivery of the material. The delivery schedule can be specified by IAF as per their requirement and payment would also be released by the MoD as per the delivery schedule only.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Oct 2022 19:44

IAF gets respite from training nightmare with HTT-40 deal. Focus now on Intermediate Jet Trainer
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-gets-re ... r/1177561/
21 Oct 2022

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 22 Oct 2022 02:56

^^^ finally a good size order , hopefully we can get an armed version for cost guard and bsf next

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 22 Oct 2022 10:47

DefExpo 2022: IAF Is Finally Buying Made-In-India HTT-40 Trainer It Refused To Buy Into For Years

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/defexpo ... -for-years

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 22 Oct 2022 11:53

Rakesh wrote:IAF gets respite from training nightmare with HTT-40 deal. Focus now on Intermediate Jet Trainer
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-gets-re ... r/1177561/
21 Oct 2022

Asked about the high cost per aircraft of about Rs 90 crore each (if one calculates the contract value to total number of planes ordered for), HAL sources said that actual cost is less than Rs 50 crore a piece and the extra cost is towards the spares, training and infrastructure costs besides other expenses.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 22 Oct 2022 12:00

ashthor wrote:DefExpo 2022: IAF Is Finally Buying Made-In-India HTT-40 Trainer It Refused To Buy Into For Years

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/defexpo ... -for-years

The trainer, designed and developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), will be built at facilities in Bangalore and Nashik starting in early 2023.

The IAF will receive the first batch of two HTT-40 trainers within 20 months, followed by eight and then 20 aircraft annually.

So, a order of 70 would be served in just 20 months + 4 years.

Production rate of 20/yr is phenomenal.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 22 Oct 2022 12:43

Credit should whole-heartedly go to HAL (for keeping their faith and investing their own money) and Modi sarkar (especially Parikkar Ji) for forcing the IAF to come to the table.

A shameful Pilatus episode comes to an end, showing multiple IAF top brass in poor light. On reading the sordid details (diluting performance benchmarks for Pilatus, moving the goalpost for HTT-40, faking prices to make imports look cheaper) reminds one of the T-90 vs Arjun saga.

The import lobby cuts across services and their dirty tricks all look the same

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 22 Oct 2022 12:45

mody wrote:HAL might license build the Honeywell engines.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/money/topstor ... 0482aab862

"The High-performing TPE331

Honeywell’s first Turboprop engine, the TPE331 was designed for the military from scratch in 1959. The series has since grown to include 18 engine models and 106 configurations. The MNC claims to have delivered over 13,000 engines to date. Honeywell also maintains that the engine is one of “the most reliable and proven turboprop engines in the world”, with more than 122 million hours of flight time.

The TPE331-12Bs, part of the aforementioned series of powerhouses, have powered the HTT-40 since 2014. This is a single shaft turboprop engine. It possesses an integral inlet and gearbox alongside a two-stage centrifugal compressor. It also features a gearbox, a power turbine, a three-stage axial turbine, a turbine exhaust diffuser, and EEC for power and operational characteristics.

The TPE331-12B boasts a maximum power output of 950 shaft horsepower (shp) and comes equipped with a full-authority digital engine control (FADEC) system as well. The latter combines throttle, prop, and other controls into a single control, enabling pilots to realise fuel economy to an extent earlier considered impossible.

The engine allows the HTT-40 to offer pilots quick acceleration and low-fuel consumption in addition to high reliability and flexibility. The latter two empower the conduction of a wide variety of training missions. Moreover, having a reliable engine also means that HAL has room to develop a range of variants that could potentially deliver higher performance levels.

This engine is the face of HAL’s long-standing relationship with Honeywell and the potential growth story that the two plan on sketching out. "

Misleading... HAL has been license builing TPE331-5 engine for more than 25 years, it was part of the Dornier contract.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 22 Oct 2022 14:01

Just the best news ever for the order of 70 HTT-40 Aircraft.
Congratulations and Jai Hind

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 23 Oct 2022 03:05

Prem Kumar wrote:Credit should whole-heartedly go to HAL (for keeping their faith and investing their own money) and Modi sarkar (especially Parikkar Ji) for forcing the IAF to come to the table.

A shameful Pilatus episode comes to an end, showing multiple IAF top brass in poor light. On reading the sordid details (diluting performance benchmarks for Pilatus, moving the goalpost for HTT-40, faking prices to make imports look cheaper) reminds one of the T-90 vs Arjun saga.

The import lobby cuts across services and their dirty tricks all look the same

You said it buddy and to think some still defend the indefensible. Extrapolate the same to the Arjun, LCA MK1/2, ATAGS, LUH, AMCA etc and the saga still goes on- over test, under order and then complain

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Oct 2022 22:01

ashishvikas wrote:
Rakesh wrote:IAF gets respite from training nightmare with HTT-40 deal. Focus now on Intermediate Jet Trainer
https://theprint.in/defence/iaf-gets-re ... r/1177561/
21 Oct 2022
Asked about the high cost per aircraft of about Rs 90 crore each (if one calculates the contract value to total number of planes ordered for), HAL sources said that actual cost is less than Rs 50 crore a piece and the extra cost is towards the spares, training and infrastructure costs besides other expenses.

So a little over US $6 million per aircraft. Do we have the PC-7 per aircraft acquisition cost? Would be nice to compare.

durairaaj · Post by **durairaaj** » 23 Oct 2022 22:59

Rakesh wrote:[...
So a little over US $6 million per aircraft. Do we have the PC-7 per aircraft acquisition cost? Would be nice to compare.

75 aircrafts cost 500 M Swiss Francs
In today's exchange rate 500 M Swiss Franc == 4,137 crore INR /75 = 55.16 Crore INR per aircraft, assuming no inflation price in Swiss Franc.