HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft: News & Discussions - 08 September 2019

[Yagnasri]

"Manohar" sounds good for me for more than one reason.

[ks_sachin]

Time to give this aircraft a name: I propose "pravat" meaning height is Sanskrit

HTT - 40 is just fine...

[Barath]

[Tweet from GC (retd) MJA Vinod ... kudos to the Indian Air Force and Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) for making it happen.

While paying tribute to IAF, HAL, HV Thakur, RM Parrikar etc, for making it happen, let us also remember Pilatus, Sanjay Bhandari and OIS, without whose corruption, and subsequent exposure/ban, this event (HTT accquisition announcement) would not have happened.

[Barath]

HTT-40 Makshika

Sanskrit for fly

It's small, and it will teach you to fly. Name is in the enduring/endearing tradition of the "bug" etc. And there's no reason why a plane (like a ship) shouldn't be female

[Cyrano]

Yeah, but why not ?!

[chetak]

"Manohar" sounds good for me for more than one reason.

True.

We need to learn to honor our own.

[ks_sachin]

Yeah, but why not ?!

Go for it if it floats your boat.

For me it is the LCA and the HTT40.

[Rakesh]

You can have both ---> aircraft designation and name. Example ---> HPT-32 Deepak.

So following the above example ---> HTT-40 Manohar. Google Chacha gave me this ---> Meaning of Manohar: Beautiful; captivating; A delightful and captivating man; Handsome; One who wins over mind; attractive.

Which of the above is the HTT-40 not? Kudos to Yasnagiri for the name choice.

[KSingh]

DAC approval has been rendered almost irrelevant in recent years BUT this is a very very good day, the ultimate validation of the vision and hard work of a young group of designers and engineers in HAL and their private partners.


7 years from sanction to DAC approval, 4 years since first flight. Sure it’s not a 4.5 gen fighter but this is still good going and it was all done on HAL’s dime.


Glad the sanction is for 106 birds and not 15 LSP like they’ve done with LCH.

Now hopefully CCS sanction can be given in the next 12 months (big ask) and production can commence ASAP, earlier the bottleneck was on the development side, now it is almost entirely on the production side.


I wish this thread had been running in 2013 when CAS NAK Browne had briefed the media agaisnt the HTT-40 and said IAF was committed to the PC-7 only. How things change when you bring about new civilian leadership, now extrapolate this to other projects.


HTT-40 and LCA MK1A are indications of a new India and watch some INC sympathisers try and rewrite history

[Manish_Sharma]

TWITTER

@ksingh_1469:

Key information on HTT-40 courtesy of @prashantbhadori
- 90 LRUs (65 sourced from HAL’s divisions, 15 from Indian private industry,10 from abroad)
- Of 4500 components, 3000 are produced by local MSMEs
-MB zero-zero ejection seat (zero-60 on the PC-7)

- entire project funded by @HALHQBLR internal funds
- weaponisation planned for as per customer requirements/demand (not possible on PC-7)

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 63712?s=19

[Manish_P]

..
So following the above example ---> HTT-40 Manohar. Google Chacha gave me this ---> Meaning of Manohar: Beautiful; captivating; A delightful and captivating man; Handsome; One who wins over mind; attractive...

I doubt they will name it after a person, if they do then maybe a king of old.

If they do name it after MP sir, i would love the AMCA to be named Arjan (meaning Archer of course )

[Mollick.R]

From Twitter

Amiet R. Kashyap@Amitraaz· 6h
Qualified on Merit, not Shifarish Smiling face with sunglasses

Amiet R. Kashyap@Amitraaz· 6h
Replying to @Amitraaz + 6 turn spin left and right

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1293474489783607299

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1293475748603244544

[k prasad]

"Manohar" sounds good for me for more than one reason.

True.

We need to learn to honor our own.

As much as I agree with this, I equally disagree... naming it after a person will open a Pandora's box that thus far has been limited to government welfare programs, roads, buildings, and other vanity things. I don't want our men to be fighting in machines named after some neta who did nothing to deserve the honour.

And mark my words, if our experience with the Nehru-Gandhi name is anything to go back, that is what it'll come to. Imagine dropping Mayawati Bombs from Deve Gowda fighters, guided by Atal radars, and directed by controllers on a Rahul AWACS. For every Parrikar or George Fernandes, there will always be 100 Antonys. Even naming after historical figures can be fraught.

[manjgu]

mayawati bombs should do well..scare the hell out of enemy even before exploding !!

[ramana]

ELMO= Enough Let's Move On.

[deejay]

Fantastic news. Good to see the Commitment levels. 106!

Linking here a hazy video I had shot from my phone of the inaugural flight on 17th Jun 16.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz7p5IbHq5w

[tsarkar]

That is a great point and is a byproduct of the choice of engine too. If the HTT-40 uses the more prevalent PT6 engines, this most possible won't be possible. Instead, it uses the Honeywell/Garrett TPE-331-12 engines which is used by only one other basic trainer, the Short Tucano.

For trainers, HAL has always chosen engines from aircraft it has already manufactured under license or in use by the services. This decision has resulted in significant risk reduction for the projects. The characteristics of the engine are very well known aiding the flight design process. Additional benefit is that the services have a pool of readily trained personnel as well.

1. HTT-40 Honeywell TPE-331 engine is shared with Do-228 in extensive service over decades with IAF, IN, ICG with HAL having manufactured over 100 of them. So both HAL and IAF engineers know the engine layout and flight characteristics very well.

2. HPT-32 used Lycoming engines that were already in service with Indian Navy Britten-Norman BN-2 Islander. After IN service over 3 decades these aircraft were donated to Myanmar where they are still flying actively.

3. HTT-34 used Allison Model 250 engines used by Indian Navy upgraded Britten-Norman BN-2T Turbine Islander

4. HAL Kiran used Orpheus engines already used by Gnats and Maruts manufactured by HAL

Briefly digressing into the realm of speculation, the TPE 331 engine is used by the Reaper drone as well, so in case of the very remote possibility of the Reaper being license manufactured in India, HAL already manufactures the engines

[tsarkar]

when CAS NAK Browne had briefed the media agaisnt the HTT-40 and said IAF was committed to the PC-7 only. How things change when you bring about new civilian leadership, now extrapolate this to other projects.

You are making an incorrect statement against ACM NAK Browne. Please retract it.

The HPT-32 Deepak had a notorious safety record of 17 crashes and 19 fatalities. That included a lady cadet on her solo. One needs extremely reliable and forgiving flying machines for young cadets.

The PC-7 was purchased in an emergency. It has zero safety incidents since its induction including 100's of solo flights by trainee pilots.

At that point of time HAL came up with HTT-40 idea. Confidence in HAL was very low given the HTT-32 performance as well as the IJT-36 Sitara program. That program is still in doldrums. The PC-7 purchase was necessary and no funds could be diverted from it for a development program.

Fortunately HAL made the correct decision of using its own funds and turning around a successful program. And on completion of certification, it will be inducted.

Now a bit of common sense about development programs.

When a child is conceived, an embryo created, a fetus developed or a baby is born, IIT's dont start offering seats to it and Google doesnt make job offers to it. Because one doesnt know how the baby will turn out to be. Maybe Sachin Tendulkar. Maybe Vinod Kambli.

As the baby grows, completes its education and passes all the relevant exams and interviews (FOC), then it starts a job.

Just as a Google Hiring Manager wont be impressed by how many cute baby photos one posts on Twitter & Facebook along with comments of how good the baby is, similarly an operational leader in the IAF wont be impressed by how many glossy photos one puts up of under development aircraft.

Expecting ACM NAC Browne or other decision makers to jump with joy in 2013 in meaningless.

Once performance is proven, they would definitely be happy to induct it. But not when its capabilities are unproven.

If that upsets internet posters of cute baby photos and positive baby comments, then honestly they couldnt be bothered less.

[Venu]

......
.....
Now a bit of common sense about development programs.

When a child is conceived, an embryo created, a fetus developed or a baby is born, IIT's dont start offering seats to it and Google doesnt make job offers to it. Because one doesnt know how the baby will turn out to be. Maybe Sachin Tendulkar. Maybe Vinod Kambli.

As the baby grows, completes its education and passes all the relevant exams and interviews (FOC), then it starts a job.

Just as a Google Hiring Manager wont be impressed by how many cute baby photos one posts on Twitter & Facebook along with comments of how good the baby is, similarly an operational leader in the IAF wont be impressed by how many glossy photos one puts up of under development aircraft.

Expecting ACM NAC Browne or other decision makers to jump with joy in 2013 in meaningless.

Once performance is proven, they would definitely be happy to induct it. But not when its capabilities are unproven.

If that upsets internet posters of cute baby photos and positive baby comments, then honestly they couldnt be bothered less.

In the same vein, Google Hiring manager cannot ask the parents to stop conceiving the baby and ask to fosters someone else' kids too!

It is a recorded fact that NAC Brownie was vehemently against HAL developing HTT-40. He initially asked for it to be dumped. Later asked HAL to work with pilatus in doing screwdriver giri of PC-7. Reasons are well known only to him.

It may have worked well for IAF to induct the initial set of PC-7's as a stop gap measure, but its good that HAL held on to its ground and pursued the HTT-40 for i) It let us build the complex locally ii) Skill erosion is prevented iii) Off-shoots of the program promising can be promising.

[tsarkar]

In the same vein, Google Hiring manager cannot ask the parents to stop conceiving the baby and ask to fosters someone else' kids too!

It is a recorded fact that NAC Brownie was vehemently against HAL developing HTT-40. He initially asked for it to be dumped. Later asked HAL to work with pilatus in doing screwdriver giri of PC-7. Reasons are well known only to him.

It may have worked well for IAF to induct the initial set of PC-7's as a stop gap measure, but its good that HAL held on to its ground and pursued the HTT-40 for i) It let us build the complex locally ii) Skill erosion is prevented iii) Off-shoots of the program promising can be promising.

He very rightfully did that given the urgent operational requirement of a Basic Trainer.

If you save money or take a loan to buy a car, and someone asks you to invest that money instead into a development program with a developer whose two previous developments (Deepak, Sitara) were unsuccessful, what would you do?

If I started a poll on BR, guess how many members would put their money on developing a car instead of buying it?

HAL investing its own money solved the problem, but the then Air Staff's decision cannot be faulted.

In the same vein, Google Hiring manager cannot ask the parents to stop conceiving the baby

As long as the parents do on their own money and not the IAF's

Later asked HAL to work with pilatus in doing screwdriver giri of PC-7

Do you have any source for this because the plan was always for PC-7 to be assembled by IAF. If you have noticed, I give a lot of references and bibliography in my posts to make the discussion meaningful.

ask to fosters someone else' kids too!

That historically has been a Rozgaar Yojana where the foster parents make money.

Anyways the good thing is the immediate requirement has been aptly met by the PC-7 for this decade while we have a home grown trainer on the verge of certification.

Before the PC-7 acquisition, young cadets had to train directly on Kirans. This decade and a generation of pilots are trained by the PC-7.

[Vips]

Scuttling a 'Made in India' project: The case of the HTT-40 trainer.

Business Standard has identified a four-pronged campaign that promoted the Pilatus trainer, while blocking the HTT-40 programme. This included a letter from a serving IAF chief to the defence minister that knowingly understated the cost of the Swiss trainer, to argue that the indigenous trainer is too expensive; a letter from a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) member of parliament (MP) to the chief vigilance commissioner (CVC) alleging corruption in selecting an engine for the HTT-40, delaying the engine purchase; another letter from a shadowy non-governmental organisation (NGO) to the CVC, also alleging irregularities in HAL's engine selection and levelling charges against HAL's design chief; and repeated attempts by the IAF deputy chief, who sits on HAL's board, to choke off funding for the HTT-40.

CVC investigations have found no wrongdoing but the investigation has delayed HAL's purchase of an engine for the HTT-40. Such delays strengthens the IAF's case for buying more Pilatus.

Business Standard had earlier reported on the letter written by then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne to then defence minister, A K Antony (July 25, 2013, 'Indian Air Force at war with Hindustan Aeronautics; wants to import, not build, a trainer', and July 31, 2013, 'Admissions & obfuscations in IAF clarification on BS reports'). Browne's five-page letter argued for scuttling the HTT-40 and buying more Pilatus, falsely stating that the Pilatus costs only Rs 30 crore per aircraft, significantly cheaper than the HTT-40. In fact, due to the rupee's decline, the IAF was paying Pilatus almost Rs 40 crore for each PC-7 Mark II trainer being delivered.

Browne also stated incorrectly that the Pilatus' cost would remain Rs 30 crore per aircraft till 2017. In fact, the next 38 trainers will cost Swiss Francs 6.09 million (Rs 39.3 crore today) each under the "options clause" of the contract. The cost of the following 68 aircrafts (adding up to 106 additional PC-7 Mark II) would be negotiated afresh and would almost certainly be higher, due to inflation.

The systematic campaign against the HTT40.

In 2013, then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne wrote to the defence minister stating that the HTT-40 would cost Rs 59.31 crore in 2018, and escalate by 2020 to Rs 64.77 crore. That letter was intended to scuttle the HTT-40 project as too expensive, and make a case for importing more Pilatus PC-7 Mark II trainers from Switzerland.

Now, however, it has emerged that HAL will build the HTT-40 for an affordable Rs 45 crore apiece.

A lot of manipulation was done to award the tender to a firm from abroad during the reign of UPA -II which we all know was the most corrupt in our history. Sure enough it emerged later that Congress higher ups and their sidekicks received kickbacks from Pilatus for this deal.

The Price of a Pilatus was intentionally shown lower while intentionally inflating the likely cost of HTT 40

[Venu]

...

Later asked HAL to work with pilatus in doing screwdriver giri of PC-7

Do you have any source for this because the plan was always for PC-7 to be assembled by IAF. If you have noticed, I give a lot of references and bibliography in my posts to make the discussion meaningful.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 067_1.html

The IAF confirms it approached HAL to build 106 PC-7 Mark IIs under license from Pilatus, even while rubbishing HAL's ability to design and build the HTT-40. An IAF statement to Business Standard says, "IAF had invited HAL to manufacture the balance PC-7 Mk II required by IAF under license in India. However, in their own interest HAL declined to participate in license manufacture of the PC-7 Mk II."

[SidSoma]

Any reasonable Buyer would have said "We shall review the product once it is available to us for testing". I do remember HPT-32 and HAL getting a lot of flak after 2 experienced trainer pilots losing their lives in the HPT-32. However IAF all above articles are proof that NAK Browne and few others did put down HAL. The Angst among the supporters is not born out of thin air.... The pilatus deal has been proved to be a corrupt deal and Pilatus has been banned.

For what it is worth :
from
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

The CBI is probing corruption allegations into the 2012 deal to acquire 75 Pilatus PC 7 Mk1 aircraft and the role of several top air force officers, including a former Chief of Air Staff is under the scanner with the agency seizing official files and documents related to the deal negotiations and contract signing. The defence ministry has already clamped down on an additional order for 38 of the Swiss trainers that was being pursued by the air force.

[suryag]

Often we give credit to MP sir of course fully deserved, however a great amount of credit is due to TSR the then HAL MD who kept pushing despite insurmountable difficulties. Thanks TSR garu

[srin]

I strongly recommend everyone to read the CAG report on Pilatus acquisition: https://bsmedia.business-standard.com/_ ... %20(1).pdf (page 57 onwards)

[Vivek K]

In addition - BRF should honor Anantha Krishnan for his fair reporting and unbiased coverage of the team's efforts and progress.

[tsarkar]

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 067_1.html

The IAF confirms it approached HAL to build 106 PC-7 Mark IIs under license from Pilatus, even while rubbishing HAL's ability to design and build the HTT-40. An IAF statement to Business Standard says, "IAF had invited HAL to manufacture the balance PC-7 Mk II required by IAF under license in India. However, in their own interest HAL declined to participate in license manufacture of the PC-7 Mk II."

Usually CAG gives the correct and complete details and thanks to srin for sharing it.

I strongly recommend everyone to read the CAG report on Pilatus acquisition: https://bsmedia.business-standard.com/_ ... %20(1).pdf (page 57 onwards)

This sums up the situation correctly.

Due to a large number of accidents, the entire HPT-32 fleet was grounded in July 2009, thus immensely slowing down the basic training of pilots to a standstill. There was an urgent need to induct a suitable training aircraft. IAF in August 2009 had initiated a proposal to procure 181 Basic Trainer Aircraft (BTA) which were to be indigenously produced at HAL. With the grounding of the entire HPT fleet, Ministry decided for outright purchase of 75 aircraft leaving the remaining 106 aircraft to be indigenously produced by HAL. Ministry in September 2009 sanctioned the urgent purchase of 75 Basic Trainer Aircraft through global tendering at an estimated cost of `4569.44 crore. It was also decided that in case HAL does not fly its first aircraft by the time the first imported aircraft arrives, then another 38 aircraft (50 per cent) would be procured under option clause of the import contract within three years of signing of contract i.e. by May 2015. The contract for 75 aircraft was signed in May 2012 and its delivery was completed by November 2015. Audit noticed that Ministry had neither placed order under option clause nor indigenous aircraft could be made available by HAL.

The decision to license manufacture PC-7 was an IAF + MoD decision given that HAL had nothing to show at that point of time.

Due to a large number of accidents, the entire HPT-32 fleet was grounded in July 2009, thus immensely slowing down the basic training of pilots to a standstill

Do people realize the significance of this?

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 7-trainers

One of the three PC-7 Mark II trainers that Pilatus has delivered to the Indian air force (IAF) was on display at Aero India. It was assembled at the IAF Academy in Hyderabad, and shown in Pilatus corporate livery with Indian air force insignia.

July 2009 - February 2013 - 4 years - no basic trainers
February 2013 - November 2015 - 75 trainers delivered
November 2015 - August 2020 and counting - IAF doing with 75 trainers against a requirement of 181

Do people realise the impact of lack of full strength of training aircraft over 11 years on IAF pilot training?

Most people learn to ride a bicycle, then a commuter motorcycle and finally a sports bike like a Kawasaki Ninja or a Ducati. There may be some outlier people who can ride superbikes without knowing how to ride a bicycle. But normal people need bicycles to learn how to ride. That was not available for 4 years and in less numbers for another 8 years

So if the Air Chief did make a case for procuring the remaining 106, he was well within his rights.

From CAG

It was also decided that in case HAL does not fly its first aircraft by the time the first imported aircraft arrives, then another 38 aircraft (50 per cent) would be procured under option clause of the import contract within three years of signing of contract i.e. by May 2015.

The first PC-7 was delivered February 2013. HAL rolled out the first HTT-40 prototype on 2 February 2016. The HTT-40 had its first flight on 31 May 2016.

So an excess leeway of 3 years & 3 months was given to HAL.

Please do understand that pilots need proper training. You don't get Topgun pilots from internet photos and positive thinking comments. There is no substitute for long hours of actual training.

And the IAF in 2013 was absolutely well justified in demanding its balance 106 trainers since the HAL aircraft hadn't flown as per its commitment to MoD.

Please do read up Air Commodore Sen's blog TKS Tales on how improperly trained pilots due to IAF rapid expansion caused safety issues later.

https://tkstales.wordpress.com/2011/11/ ... rthigeyan/

https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/training-command

20. A major change in training happened in 2009. A decision was taken by Air Headquarters to ground the entire HPT-32 aircraft fleet. The veritable Kiran Mk-I aircraft was pressed into service with a highly abridged syllabus for Stage-I training. In July 2013, Pilatus PC-7 Mk-II aircraft was inducted for Stage-I training and the 194 Pilot’s Course was the first course to train on the new aircraft. The same has continued ever since.

Internet photos and positive comments wont win air battles. Pilot training will.

In real life internet photos and positive comments cannot substitute for pilot training.

Personally I am shocked at the naievety of posters expecting pilots with compromised training to shoot down F-16's and J-10's.

I desperately pray the deficiency in basic training continuing from July 2009 till today does not manifest itself in air combat or air safety. Including Navy pilots.

[Vivek K]

Tsarkar ji - good analysis.

My questions is not limited to the fracas on the HTT-40 issue. However, is this mafia styled vendetta vis-a-vis domestic products healthy for India in the long run? Good products like the Arjun have been denied orders while massive amounts have been thrown overseas for equipment that may be difficult to maintain in the coming years. (Ordering 1500 Arjuns inplace of a similar number of T90s would have created a vast MIC generating improved production techniques, further serial development of the product and above all generating 1000s of good jobs). Has any nation achieved great power status through importing weapons? What is the impact on the national economy of jobs leaving for overseas en masse? After all manufacturing is the largest provider of jobs isn't it and weapons are some of the costliest labor intensive products. So is it not the responsibility of the armed services, the MOD and the GOI to function such that National Security is enhanced (military and economic)?

[tsarkar]

Vivek K ji, I am composing a post in response to a query on the Tejas thread. That will answer your query. Kindly bear with me.

[Vivek K]

Thank you Sir.

[suryag]

TSarkar ji all good points you make but unfortunately the three arms MoD, HAL and IAF need to be blamed for the Pilatus PC-7 decision. So long ago there used to be a program to re-engine the deepak with a turboprop. That was not pursued by any of the arms above except for HAL making some noise. Then came the turn of HTT35( ?) which was a full new design with Turboprop engine. Again this was not pursued although the mockup was ready by 1994. If you let go of these opportunities what you end up is in a mess and that mess is called PC-7. Am not an extremist when it comes to supporting HAL or IAF but the blame is on all the three including MoD. Of course, it took a TSR to continue HTT-40 and with MP sir's blessing it is living today but this is a situation of our own making and all the three need to be blamed with lesser share to HAL

https://www.facebook.com/IADnews/photos ... 145771567/

[sanjayc]

^^Armed forces get a free pass because of our patriotism but the generals too are responsible in large part for creating the mess. Their aversion to anything made in India is legendary and shows a lack of grounding

[suryag]

Sirs my problem is I am willing to even accept the ridicule that the Tejas got in the 1990s as too ambitious but cant accept that they abandoned HTT-35 after a mockup was built in 1994. They thought HAL couldnt build HTT-35 after having built HPT-32, HJT16 thats what got my goat. Any sane officer when faced with HPT-32 Deepak issue should ask "hey where is that HTT-35? Can we revive that" illa we want Pilatus only

[SidSoma]

when CAS NAK Browne had briefed the media agaisnt the HTT-40 and said IAF was committed to the PC-7 only. How things change when you bring about new civilian leadership, now extrapolate this to other projects.

You are making an incorrect statement against ACM NAK Browne. Please retract it.

Expecting ACM NAC Browne or other decision makers to jump with joy in 2013 in meaningless.

Once performance is proven, they would definitely be happy to induct it. But not when its capabilities are unproven.

If that upsets internet posters of cute baby photos and positive baby comments, then honestly they couldnt be bothered less.

tSarkarSir, the point is not to contest that an adhoc trainer buy was justified. May be it was and yes the emergency buy is the fault of multiple parties. However, it was plain to see that PC7 deal was a tainted deal.. The support it got from NAK Browne and the subsequent bad mouthing of HAL and HTT 40 was akin to the letter written to RM not to allow Tejas to fly as it was not safe. Its ok to be skeptical about a product before seeing it, however to say "come what may even if it meets my requirements I will not buy it" is simply not done. The animosity shown to HAL and HTT-40 was severe enough for the investigating agencies to stand up and take notice, just to see if the interest was vested or not. There is no news if there was and I think its a blessing that there was no Taint on Browne sir.

[ks_sachin]

TSarkar ji all good points you make but unfortunately the three arms MoD, HAL and IAF need to be blamed for the Pilatus PC-7 decision. So long ago there used to be a program to re-engine the deepak with a turboprop. That was not pursued by any of the arms above except for HAL making some noise. Then came the turn of HTT35( ?) which was a full new design with Turboprop engine. Again this was not pursued although the mockup was ready by 1994. If you let go of these opportunities what you end up is in a mess and that mess is called PC-7. Am not an extremist when it comes to supporting HAL or IAF but the blame is on all the three including MoD. Of course, it took a TSR to continue HTT-40 and with MP sir's blessing it is living today but this is a situation of our own making and all the three need to be blamed with lesser share to HAL

https://www.facebook.com/IADnews/photos ... 145771567/

Fact is suppose is the trust deficit that HAL created because of the not just the HPT 32 but prod quality of other many aircraft. Sorry suryag the blame lies with HAL equally if not more.

With the HTT 40 HAL finally put its money where its mouth is and proved itself and see what we have.

[ks_sachin]

You are making an incorrect statement against ACM NAK Browne. Please retract it.

Expecting ACM NAC Browne or other decision makers to jump with joy in 2013 in meaningless.

Once performance is proven, they would definitely be happy to induct it. But not when its capabilities are unproven.

If that upsets internet posters of cute baby photos and positive baby comments, then honestly they couldnt be bothered less.

tSarkarSir, the point is not to contest that an adhoc trainer buy was justified. May be it was and yes the emergency buy is the fault of multiple parties. However, it was plain to see that PC7 deal was a tainted deal.. The support it got from NAK Browne and the subsequent bad mouthing of HAL and HTT 40 was akin to the letter written to RM not to allow Tejas to fly as it was not safe. Its ok to be skeptical about a product before seeing it, however to say "come what may even if it meets my requirements I will not buy it" is simply not done. The animosity shown to HAL and HTT-40 was severe enough for the investigating agencies to stand up and take notice, just to see if the interest was vested or not. There is no news if there was and I think its a blessing that there was no Taint on Browne sir.

HAL needed that bad mouthing - perhaps that is what forced them to put in their own money and develop the HTT 40. That is nothing compared to the lives lost because of the HPT 32 and HALs track record at that point was not stellar enough for the IAF to wait for the aircraft to meet its requirements or even be confident that these requirements would be met.
Why do you think that there is so much animosity to the HAL and the OFB in the rank and file of the IAF or Army......Things may be changing with the HAL but what kick back do you think a jawan gets that he will root for a Sig over a INSAS..

[suryag]

KS_sachin sir this is not the right attitude. Am probably talking too idealistic here but if BRD screws up on an upgrade will IAF go outside to China to get the upgrade done no right ? HAL should be treated the same way. Set up well defined and mutually agreed upon acceptance criteria at HAL as part of contract. Let the IAF station a group that receives the delivery. If the delivery doesnt meet the expectations mercilessly reject it. Let HAL pull up the socks and answer MoD why they werent able to deliver the aircraft. Reflect the same on the production DGM and his group's ACRs. Go to MoD make this demand clear that, atleast this GoI isnt corrupt like the previous ones or even if it is then leak selectively to the press. Instead of doing this we go with past performance/precedence as a future indicator and reject it outright. Lets say that GoI was not happy with the way the IAF fought in 1965 will it be acceptable to all of us if GoI subcontracts protection of Northern area to Russian Airforce no right ? then why apply that thing to HAL ? Kick their butt get it done but dont throw them out after all they are also learning like the forces. <motherhood and apple pie>We paid 4000 crore to that company, if it were to goto HAL atleast 2000 crore of that amount would stay in India</motherhood and apple pie>

Arent we ashamed of ourselves that we have a force that goes begging around the world when it comes to sorting out maintenance issues ?

Hats off to TSR garu for sticking through with HTT-40 despite the board advising against it, takes a man of character and courage to do that of course his team backed him up well

[suryag]

Sid Soma Sir as I mentioned before the leaders(AVM, AMs, GMs, DGMs) are paid the big bucks to fix the process make them fix it.

[ks_sachin]

KS_sachin sir this is not the right attitude. Am probably talking too idealistic here but if BRD screws up on an upgrade will IAF go outside to China to get the upgrade done no right ? HAL should be treated the same way. Set up well defined and mutually agreed upon acceptance criteria at HAL as part of contract. Let the IAF station a group that receives the delivery. If the delivery doesnt meet the expectations mercilessly reject it. Let HAL pull up the socks and answer MoD why they werent able to deliver the aircraft. Reflect the same on the production DGM and his group's ACRs. Go to MoD make this demand clear that, atleast this GoI isnt corrupt like the previous ones or even if it is then leak selectively to the press. Instead of doing this we go with past performance/precedence as a future indicator and reject it outright. Lets say that GoI was not happy with the way the IAF fought in 1965 will it be acceptable to all of us if GoI subcontracts protection of Northern area to Russian Airforce no right ? then why apply that thing to HAL ? Kick their butt get it done but dont throw them out after all they are also learning like the forces. <motherhood and apple pie>We paid 4000 crore to that company, if it were to goto HAL atleast 2000 crore of that amount would stay in India</motherhood and apple pie>

Arent we ashamed of ourselves that we have a force that goes begging around the world when it comes to sorting out maintenance issues ?

Hats off to TSR garu for sticking through with HTT-40 despite the board advising against it, takes a man of character and courage to do that of course his team backed him up well

Suryag I am a realist...that does not mean I don't know what should be done....

What your vision is definitely what should happen but.....

If the BRD screws up then there are consequences....the Chief has control of that....

Pilot lives are lost because of many faults or jawans lives are lost because of manu/ design defects or weapons malfunction fixing accountability and then consequences....lets see what happened...

You have to remember that a Chief is on office for 2 years and in that time he or she (one day perhaps) has to fight on many fronts and they will only pick battles where they know they have some chance of making a difference...

So institutional reform type issues are not necessarily flavour of the month...

So if the Chief wants to meet his primary objectives i.e. be war ready and ensure that his pilots have the required training and equipment to do their job they will choose the hear and now rather than promissory notes....

[ramana]

All said and done glad HAL came thoiruhg and there was a good RM who issued the procurment orders.
Rest is water under the bridge and will be taken up appropriately.

No one is squeaky clean and meantime pilots lives are in danger and rascals give bashan while counting money in Swiss banks.