Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

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Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 20 Sep 2019 04:17

Starting this thread to have a robust discussion on the Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets. Post Away!

Special thanks to Cybaru and Sankum for all their contributions.

FIXED WING AIRCRAFT

Boeing P-8I Poseidon: 8 in service + 4 more on order + 10 more planned.

Crew: Two flight crew and seven in mission control.
Length: 129 ft 5 in (39.47 m)
Wingspan: 123 ft 6 in (37.64 m)
Horizontal Tail: 47 feet, 1 inch
Height: 42 ft 1 in (12.83 m)
Internal Cabin Width: 11 feet, 7 inches
Empty Weight: 138,300 lb (62,730 kg)
Useful Load: 19,800+ lb (9,000+ kg)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 189,200 lb (85,820 kg)
Powerplant: 2 x CFM56-7B27A turbofans @ 27,300 lbf (121 kN) each
Maximum Fuel Capacity: 75,169 pounds
Maximum Speed: 490 knots (907 km/h, 564 mph)
Cruise Speed: 440 kn (815 km/h, 509 mph)
Combat Radius: 1,200 4,500 nautical miles (2,222 km); 4 hours on station (for anti-submarine warfare mission)
Ferry Range: 4,500 nautical miles (8,300 km)
Service Ceiling: 41,000 ft (12,496 m)
Armament: Five internal bays and 6 external hard points for a variety of conventional weapons, e.g. AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER, AGM-84 Harpoon, Mark 54 torpedo, mines, depth charges, and the High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare Weapon system.
Avionics: Raytheon APY-10 multi-mission surface search radar, AN/ALQ-240 Electronic Support Measures Suite

Ilyushin Il-38SD: Five were inducted, but two crashed (IN302 and IN304) in a mid-air collision on 01 October 2002. Two additional airframes were acquired to make up for the loss.

Crew: 7 - 8
Length: 40.185 m (131 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 37.4 m (122 ft 8 in)
Height: 10.17 m (33 ft 4 in)
Wing Area: 140 sq m (1,500 sq ft)
Empty Weight: 35,500 kg (78,264 lb)
Max Takeoff Weight: 66,000 kg (145,505 lb)
Powerplant: 4 x Ivchencko/Progress AI-20M turboprop engines @ 3,151 kW (4,225[1] hp) each
Maximum Speed: 645 km/h (401 mph, 348 kn)
Ferry Range: 7,500 km (4,700 mi, 4,000 nmi)
Endurance: 13 hours
Service Ceiling: 11,000 m (36,000 ft)
Rate of Climb: 5.33 m/s (1,049 ft/min)
Armament: 20,000 lb (9,000 kg) of disposable stores, including depth charges, mines, torpedoes and bombs.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

ROTARY WING AIRCRAFT

Sikorsky MH-60R Seahawk: 24 planned.

Dimensions
Operating Length: 64.83 ft 19.76 m
Operating Width 53.66 ft 16.35 m
Operating Height: 16.70 ft 5.10 m
Folded Length: 41.05 ft 12.51 m
Folded Width: 11.00 ft 3.35 m
Folded Height: 12.92 ft 3.94 m
Main Rotor Diameter: 53.66 ft 16.35 m
Tail Rotor Diameter: 11.00 ft 3.35 m

Mission Gross Weight
Surface Warfare (SUW): 21,290 lb (9,657 kg)
Maximum Takeoff Gross Weight: 23,500 lb (10,681.82 kg)
Powerplant: Two T700-GE-401C turboshaft engines.

Mission Endurance
Surface Warfare (SUW): 3.30 hours
Dash Speed: 140 knots
Weapons: Anti-ship missiles, torpedoes, 50 cal. guns
Auxiliary fuel: Up to two external tanks

Westland Sea King Mk.42B: Twenty Mk.42B variants were delivered to the Indian Navy between 1988 and 1992. Earlier variants (the 12 Sea King Mk42s and the three Sea King Mk42As) have been likely retired. Six Sea King Mk42C variants (fitted with a nose-mounted Bendix RDR 1400C search radar and serve in the rescue/utility transport role) were delivered in 1987.

Powerplant: Two Rolls-Royce 1400-1T turbofans, rated at 1660 shp.
Operational Speed: 112 knots (208 km/h).
Service Ceiling: 11,500 ft. (3,500 meters).
Range: 664 nautical miles (1,230 km).
Maximum Payload: 8,000 lbs. (3,628 kg).
Sensors: The Mk.42B variant has a MEL Super Searcher radar, an Alcatel HS-12 dipping sonar, a Chelton 7 homer, a ESM by Marconi Hermes and an AQS-902B acoustic processor.
Weapons: For ASW use, the Mk42B variant can carry two Whitehead A244S torpedoes or APR-2 torpedoes, Mk.11 bombs and mines. For ASV use, the Mk42B variant can carry two Sea Eagle AShMs.

Kamov Ka-28: A total of 13 Ka-28s (export version of the Ka-27PL) entered service with the Indian Navy in the mid-1980s, including three equipped for the training role. Three examples have been lost in accidents. The remaining 10 are being upgraded.

Powerplant: Two Isotov TV3-117BK turbo shafts, each rated at 1,660 kW (2,225 shp), drive contra-rotating blades.
Operational Speed: 110 knots (204 km/h)
Service Ceiling: 12,000 ft (3,660 miles)
Range: 270 nautical miles (500 km)
Sensors: Splash Drop search radar, VGS-3 dipping sonar and sonobuoys.
Armament: Up to about 2,000 kg of stores carried in a lower-fuselage weapon bay, generally comprising two torpedoes or depth charges.
Self Defence: KITE Electronic Support Measures (ESM) systems are fitted aboard the helicopters. The KITE ESM system is an indigenous development by the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL).

Kamov Ka-31: 14 Ka-31 AEW helicopters entered service with the Indian Navy starting in April 2003. 10 more on order.

Powerplant: Two Klimov TV3-117VMAR turboshafts each rated at 1633 kW (2200 hp).
Maximum Speed: 135 knots (155 mph; 250 km/h)
Service Ceiling: 3,500 meters (11,483 feet)
Range: 324 nautical miles (600 km)
Patrol Endurance: 2.5 hours
Sensors: E-801M Oko (Eye) airborne electronic warfare radar which features a 6x1 meter planar array mounted beneath the fuselage. The radar is folded and stowed beneath the aircraft's fuselage before being lowered into a vertical position, to allow 360º mechanical scanning of the radar once every ten seconds. The radar can simultaneously track up to 40 airborne or surface threats, and can detect fighter-sized aircraft from a range of 100 - 200 km (depending on the size of the target) and surface ships at a horizon of 200 km from an altitude of 9,840 feet. The radar antenna weighs 200 kg (441 lbs). The co-ordinates, speed and heading of a target gathered by the radar are transmitted via an encoded radio data-link channel to a ship-borne or shore-based command post. This encoded radio data-link channel will introduce airborne network centric warfare to the Indian Navy, due to its advanced real-time capability. The secure data-link and on-board communication systems have a range of 150 km, at altitudes between 4950 and 11,000 feet.

The Indian Navy's Ka-31s are also being fitted out with the Abris GPS featuring a 12-channel receiver. The GPS is designed & developed by Kronstadt - a firm in St. Petersburg, Russia. Abris will provide all satellite navigation data. Other systems include navigational equipment for digital terrain maps, ground-proximity warning, obstacle approach warning, auto-navigation of pre-programmed routes, flight stabilization and auto homing onto and landing at the parent carrier/base and information concerning the helicopter's tactical situation.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 05:02

Relevant to our operations as well as we continue to add more of these birds!

15 Questions With One of VP-5's 'Mad Foxes' on Flying the P-8 Poseidon
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/9137/15-questions-with-one-of-vp-5s-mad-foxes-on-flying-the-p-8-poseidon

The P-8 Poseidon has a significant leg up on the P-3 Orion when it comes to the airframe itself, crew coordination, and its ability to handle future capabilities. With both forward and aft auxiliary fuel tanks, we can load up with about 70,000 pounds of gas depending on our takeoff limitations. I have flown 10.5+ hour ISR (information, surveillance and reconnaissance) missions, with a comfortable amount of gas to land with.


By being able to fly higher, faster, and longer than the P-3, we can get on station faster than our predecessor.


The HUD in the left seat also greatly increases our situational awareness when operating at 200 feet and up to 45 degrees angle of bank. Also, the P-8 can monitor more sonobuoys than the P-3 and the integration of a single rail setup for the operators helps crew communication and crew resource management.


ESM (electronic surveillance measures) is used to collect a wide range of emitters used by both commercial and military ship radars, aircraft, and land based facilities at extended ranges. It allows us to be able to geolocate emitters to find a foreign submarine, surface combatant, or land based surface-to-air site. It is also a passive system, which allows us to covertly monitor a wide area.


We also have four buckets of 30 flares apiece to also help defeat surface-to-air missiles threats. The P-8 is also equipped with a dry bay fire system. With sensors located throughout the aircraft, the system detects any sort of flames or explosions from small arms or other projectiles that damages the aircraft and immediately extinguishes it.


Patrol size - in one go!
The first P-8 deployment to the 5th Fleet AOR was definitely a trial run for the platform. The P-8 flew missions in the Arabian Gulf, Strait of Hormuz, Gulf of Aden, Gulf of Oman, and the Red Sea. Before the P-8 arrived, these areas were often split up into several different missions for different aircraft during the course of one day. It was actually a suggestion from a junior officer Naval Flight Officer who simply asked “why can't we just do it all in one flight?”


Despite this, we still had over a 95% on time take off (OTTO) rate. Secondly, it can be incredibly difficult to keep an aluminum tube running literally tons of electronic equipment cool enough in 120+ degree heat.


Currently the P-8 can primarily employ the MK-54 torpedo and the AGM-84D Harpoon. The integration of the LRASM, HAAWC mod torpedo, and other niche weapons are also on the horizon. Given how new of a platform the P-8 is, we are still in the infancy of truly using the aircraft to its full potential.


Torpedoes are going to be launched from our weapons bay stations, with the capability to carry up to five Mk-54 torpedoes. An ASW attack is currently carried out at a low altitude, with the capabilities for a high altitude ASW coming with the HAAWC kit for the MK-54.


For our primary ASuW weapon, we launch AGM-84D Harpoon missiles. The P-8 can carry up to four harpoons as well, and can shoot them in different modes and with both engine start before and after launches, from a wide variety of speeds and altitude regimes.


From a mission standpoint, it is often the ready launches or last minute tasking that always results in the most exciting days in the aircraft. One flight we were re-tasked to rig a foreign submarine, coming down to a few hundred feet and 300 knots. Seeing the submariners on the bridge while we flew by was a pretty humbling experience. Often times we are operating tens of miles away from our targets, looking through a camera lens.


How will the P-8 work with the Navy’s new MQ-4C Triton version of the USAF’s Global Hawk?

Currently, the MQ-4C is being used as a long endurance, maritime ISR asset, that often times feeds us updated posits on contacts of interest. They can fly significantly higher and longer than us and are able to provide a more constant feed of ISR.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 05:53

https://www.militaryaerospace.com/sensors/article/14035390/maritime-patrol-antisubmarine-warfare-asw-aircraft

Notably, India chose not to purchase Mark 82 depth charges for P-8I aircraft ASW operations given the capabilities of the MK-54 torpedoes and Harpoon Block-II missiles.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 06:07

P8
ITEM DIMENSION
Wing Span 124 feet, 6 inches
Horizontal Tail 47 feet, 1 inch
Internal Cabin Width 11 feet, 7 inches
Height 16 feet, 0 inches
Height at Tail 42 feet, 2 inches
Length 129 feet, 6 inches
Fuel Capacity 75,169 pounds
Weight (Empty) 141,800 pounds
Weight (Max Takeoff) 187,700 pounds

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 06:18

If philip shows up here talking about good old props - here is a quote for y'all to point him at! ( :mrgreen: My Pre-emptive strike! AFS - Absolute First USE! 8) No such thing as NFU here!)

"The P-8A is like the internet where the P-3 was like a walkie-talkie - CAF AIRMSHL Leo Davie"
http://www.defence.gov.au/Publications/NewsPapers/Raaf/editions/5822/5822.pdf

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 20 Sep 2019 06:26

Rakesh , 16 ASW version of Dhruv are planned to be delivered by 2022 and 8 new Chetak are planned to delivered 2 this year and 6 next year. I expect it to be Match varient to shore up ASW shortfall but can't be sure.
The number of Ka 31 in service is 14 nos with 10 more on order for eventual total fleet of 24 nos.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 20 Sep 2019 06:29

2 crashed IL 38 were replaced and total 5 nos upgraded IL 38SD are in service.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 20 Sep 2019 06:35

Of Ka 28 3nos of original 13 have crashed for total of 10 old Ka 28 which will be upgraded to latest standard of which 4 are trainer version with no ASW capacity.
6 new built Ka 28 were to be bought along with INS Vikramaditya. What is the status don't know .
Unverified news reports say the number at 4 nos with 4 more Ka 28 on order. Actual strength not known.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 20 Sep 2019 06:40

INS Vikrant will carry 6 Ka 28 + 4 Ka 31 while INS Vikramaditya will carry 4 Ka28+ 4 Ka 31 for total requirement of 10 ASW Ka 28 + 8 Ka 31.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 20 Sep 2019 07:56

By 2025 the full ASW capability Helicopter fleet will constitute of 24 Sea hawk + 16 Dhruv + 6 Ka 28= 46 Helos..
It will be backed up with partial ASW capability in Match version of Chetak and NLUH which will be in numbers capable of carrying depth charges and LWTorpedoes.
Last edited by sankum on 20 Sep 2019 08:28, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 20 Sep 2019 08:10

^^^ did we acquire the sea hawks ? what is its status?

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 20 Sep 2019 08:27

The deal is planned for 24 Seahawk through FMS route by year end.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 08:49

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-02-07/ilyushin-unveils-il-38-asw-upgrade-russian-navy


With all-up weight of 68 tons, the Il-38 has a crew of seven and a range of 9,500 km (5,126nm). It is broadly similar to the P-3 Orion, which has filled a similar ASW role with the U.S. Navy. According to Ilyushin, the Il-38N is intended for long-endurance anti-submarine patrols over sea, with simultaneous search for aerial and sea-going targets. In addition, the aircraft can set mine fields and perform search-and-rescue and ecological monitoring duties. Its arsenal of torpedoes, mines, depth charges and buoys has been extended though addition of the PL250-120 Zagon anti-submarine guided bombs. Indian Il-38SDs can fire the Kh-35, whereas the Russian navy decided not to equip its aircraft with anti-ship missiles.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 08:56

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2013-05-24/russian-navy-upgrade-il-38-patrol-fleet

The Novella is another version of the Sea Dragon mission system that was designed by the Leninets company in St. Petersburg and exported to India for an upgrade to five Il-38s serving with the Indian Navy. This $150 million contract was placed in 2001, but delays in development and problems in meeting the specification prompted the Indian Navy to halt contract payments temporarily. The Sea Dragon system was supposed to track 32 targets simultaneously (ships, submarines, mines, aircraft) within a 320-km radius, with aerial target detection up to 90 km away. The Indian Navy eventually accepted the aircraft in 2010, but dropped plans to install the system on eight larger Tu-142MKI maritime patrol and attack aircraft, opting instead to replace them with the Boeing P-8I Poseidon. Together with the Su-30MKI fighter, the Il-38SD is to be armed with the air-launched version of the BrahMos PJ-10 supersonic cruise missile. It will supplement the Kh-35 Uran and Sea Eagle subsonic anti-ship missiles already in the airplane’s arsenal, and for which the Indian examples were outfitted with external hard points on the fuselage sides.


The decision to upgrade the Il-38s was a hard one for the MoD, which long hesitated whether to outfit a relatively small fleet needing extensive airframe life extension work. The Indian aircraft have received a 40-year life extension. The Il-38N retains the original airplane’s crew of seven, 68-tonne mtow and 5.5- to 8.5-ton internal payload capability for various buoys, torpedoes, mines and depth charges.


https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/il-38sd.htm
The refurbishment will enhance the life of the aircraft by another 15 years and also strengthen its surveillance capability.


so retirement starts in 2025 onwards for these birds! The extra order of 10 P8I and timeline make sense!

Untested product ordered in large quantities!!!! Good job IN!! :oops: Beautiful product and it worked out, but imagine that DRDO! :)

The Indian Navy needs maritime reconnaissance aircraft (MRA) to replace its ageing fleet of eight Soviet-era Tupolev Tu-42s that are on the verge of completing their service life, and also the remaining two IL-38 aircraft. A four-member Navy team, headed by a one-star officer, observed trials in July 2007 on MRA derivatives of the Airbus A-319, manufactured by the EADS Spain and the Boeing P-8A Poseidon in the US, both with operational capability set for around 2013. Since neither of MRA derivatives exists, the flight trials involved simulations on the Airbus A-320 and the Boeing-737 platforms on representative flight profiles and mission system evaluations. The price at which the EADS would be arming the Indian Navy with the eight MRAs is almost $ 400 million less than the price offered by Boeing.
Last edited by Cybaru on 20 Sep 2019 09:06, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 08:58

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/il38

In Jan 78, the squadron aircraft using the on board Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) equipment successfully located the wreckage of the ill fated Air India Jumbo which had crashed soon after take-off off the Mumbai coast. The Winged Stallions added yet another feather to their cap when they completed 25000 hours of accident free flying in 1996. With the Mid Life Update of the IL 38 SD (Sea Dragon) being completed in 2009 the Winged Stallions are set to gallop their way to further glory in the coming years.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 20 Sep 2019 09:04

Couple of questions:
1. Are Indian p8s capable of using the slammer? Have these been purchased along with the harpoons?
2. What about the sea guardian purchase? Still on?

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 09:09

1. Only references talk about "MK-54 torpedoes and Harpoon Block-II missiles.", so probably no
2. Who knows, wait and watch if that gets ordered. Hope they push for 20-30 of those 24 hour surveillance birds. With sats and those, we ill have round the clock coverage or Arabian Sea & Malacca Straits.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 09:15

ICG MPA requirements are as follows
https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/indias-mid-tier-maritime-patrol-aircraft-competitions-05247/

India’s Ministry of Defense has reportedly issued its RFP for 9 Indian Navy medium-range maritime reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft, plus 38 anti-ship missiles. The RFP was reportedly sent to Airbus Military, Alenia, Antonov, Boeing, Embraer, IAI Elta, Lockheed Martin, and Saab. All are covered in the contenders section.

The specifications could be a problem, however, which is common in Indian competitions. The RFP states the aircraft must fly a transit of 400 nmi at 300 knots, and patrol 400 nmi for 4 hours at a height of 10,000 feet. This profile would be flown with 2 missiles underwing, and the missiles would need a minimum range of about 50 nmi.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 09:20

P8A Mad Foxes - Nice video of low flying and sonobuoy deployment. Very nice watch! Quite a treat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z6qtoR6bZQ

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Mort Walker » 20 Sep 2019 09:51

Cybaru wrote:P8A Mad Foxes - Nice video of low flying and sonobuoy deployment. Very nice watch! Quite a treat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z6qtoR6bZQ


At 4:45 you can see Russian submariners flipping off the P-8A crew (must be Philip and Austin)! Maybe the P-8A should have dumped a few MK-54s on them.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 20 Sep 2019 09:54

Mort Walker wrote:
Cybaru wrote:P8A Mad Foxes - Nice video of low flying and sonobuoy deployment. Very nice watch! Quite a treat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z6qtoR6bZQ


At 4:45 you can see Russian submariners flipping off the P-8A crew (must be Philip and Austin)! Maybe the P-8A should have dumped a few MK-54s on them.


:rotfl: The usual peace time diplomacy exchange! The Bird!

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 20 Sep 2019 13:46

Mort Walker wrote:
Cybaru wrote:P8A Mad Foxes - Nice video of low flying and sonobuoy deployment. Very nice watch! Quite a treat!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z6qtoR6bZQ


At 4:45 you can see Russian submariners flipping off the P-8A crew (must be Philip and Austin)! Maybe the P-8A should have dumped a few MK-54s on them.


LoL. Filipov, of course.

The P8 is really the best system in its class -- like the C-17 in the transport space and the upcoming MH-60R. Really proud that we fly some of top systems in the world.

Only drawback is that the IN and IAF are so used to this kind of standard that indigenous products can pale in comparison. Especially in the helo space where we have capacity for local products.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2019 02:21

sankum wrote:Rakesh , 16 ASW version of Dhruv are planned to be delivered by 2022 and 8 new Chetak are planned to delivered 2 this year and 6 next year. I expect it to be Match varient to shore up ASW shortfall but can't be sure.

I thought the ASW version of the Dhruv was too under-powered and did not have the required endurance. And the Chetak would be even more so. Are we sure that these choppers will be used in the ASW role?

sankum wrote:The number of Ka 31 in service is 14 nos with 10 more on order for eventual total fleet of 24 nos.

I will update the first post with the Ka-31s. That is good news. I thought we only had 9 Ka-31s in total. When did the last five come in?

sankum wrote:2 crashed IL 38 were replaced and total 5 nos upgraded IL 38SD are in service.

Thanks. I have updated that as well.

sankum wrote:Of Ka 28, 3 nos of original 13 have crashed for total of 10 old Ka 28 which will be upgraded to latest standard of which 4 are trainer version with no ASW capacity.
6 new built Ka 28 were to be bought along with INS Vikramaditya. What is the status don't know.
Unverified news reports say the number at 4 nos with 4 more Ka 28 on order. Actual strength not known.

As per wiki chacha, the latest standard for the Ka-27 is the 'M' variant. Is this the variant the remaining 10 are being upgraded to?

In the absence of any verifiable, open-source info...I cannot add the numbers. So will stick with 10 for now. I will mention the upgrade bit.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2019 02:30

chola wrote:The P8 is really the best system in its class -- like the C-17 in the transport space and the upcoming MH-60R. Really proud that we fly some of top systems in the world.

Only drawback is that the IN and IAF are so used to this kind of standard that indigenous products can pale in comparison. Especially in the helo space where we have capacity for local products.

By the middle of the next decade, the IN's ASW assets will standardize around the Boeing P-8I (fixed wing), the Sikorsky MH-60R (rotary wing) and likely the General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper (assuming a deal is signed this month during the Prime Minister's visit to the US).

I am waiting to hear from sankum about the HAL Dhruv and HAL Chetak in the ASW role. They will complement the MH-60R.

Long term, I am waiting for the IMRH (Indian Multi-Role Helicopter) to fly in IN colours.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 21 Sep 2019 02:44




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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 21 Sep 2019 03:28

Damn, only three consoles... The C295W will probably make a better platform if it weren't limited by range.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 21 Sep 2019 06:25

Vayu aerospace issue, Detailed article on Rotorcraft of IN.

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/issue/vayu-issue-vayu-issue-vi-nov-dec-2018.pdf


For the MATCH (Medium-Range Anti-Submarine Torpedo-Carrying Helicopter) role, the HAL-built Alouette III carried two depth charges or two antisubmarine torpedoes, or one of each, and were fitted with a Harpoon attachment for secure-landing on a frigate-deck. However, the MATCH helicopter had no submarine-detection sensors, being guided to the target by its parent ship


Although typically based on the frigates that they were delivered with, the IN now operates 14 Ka-31s, freeing up several to fly from other capital ships, including INS Vikramaditya.


To meet its comprehensive requirements, the Indian Navy has projected the need for 147 NMRH, comprising 90 for the antisubmarine warfare task and 33 for ‘Special Operations’, planned to be progressed under the Strategic Partnership model, to meet the requirement during the period 2025-2050.


The G-to-G deal for 24 MH-60Rs will give the Indian Navy some relief even as acquisition of the 123 follow on helicopters of this type is to be executed under the ‘strategic partnership model’, with a global tender expected to be floated in 2019.
Last edited by sankum on 21 Sep 2019 06:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 21 Sep 2019 06:32

Indian Navy to Upgrade Kamov 28 Anti-Submarine Warfare Helicopters

Under the mid-life upgrade, the six choppers will get new sensors among others while the rest four will only undergo engine overhauling.


Of the original 13 nos Ka28, 3 Ka 28 were training versions and now of remaining 10 nos Ka 28 only 6 Ka 28 will get new sensors and rest 4 Ka 28 engine overhaul to serve in training role.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 21 Sep 2019 06:46

PM Modi approves Rs 8,000 crore plan for 32 Dhruvs



The Coast Guard has these twin-engine helicopters at its different bases for carrying out search and rescue and coastal surveillance missions. "The Navy is also planning to equip the choppers with some low frequency SONARs which would be developed by the force with the help of an advanced DRDO laboratory," the sources said.


There was HAL tender for 180 degree nose mounted maritime search radar for 16 ASW Dhruv. It will not have 360 degree coverage like in Seahawk or ASW version of IMRH.

111 nos NLUH tender provides for weather nose radar with secondary sea search capability and ability to carry depth charges and LWT to be at par with MATCH Chetak.

I would like 123nos NMRH tender to go to Naval IMRH post 2025 which will have 66 nos ASW version and 57 nos in Commando(33 nos)/ Utility(24 nos) versions.
Last edited by sankum on 21 Sep 2019 07:01, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby chola » 21 Sep 2019 06:49

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:The P8 is really the best system in its class -- like the C-17 in the transport space and the upcoming MH-60R. Really proud that we fly some of top systems in the world.

Only drawback is that the IN and IAF are so used to this kind of standard that indigenous products can pale in comparison. Especially in the helo space where we have capacity for local products.

By the middle of the next decade, the IN's ASW assets will standardize around the Boeing P-8I (fixed wing), the Sikorsky MH-60R (rotary wing) and likely the General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper (assuming a deal is signed this month during the Prime Minister's visit to the US).

I am waiting to hear from sankum about the HAL Dhruv and HAL Chetak in the ASW role. They will complement the MH-60R.

Long term, I am waiting for the IMRH (Indian Multi-Role Helicopter) to fly in IN colours.


I hope we can get the Dhruv onto frigates/destroyers. We've seen it on the Vikramaditya.

I hope the LUH can eventually take over that single-engine helo role. The Chetak is really long in the tooth.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 21 Sep 2019 22:52

https://hal-india.co.in/HAL%20Delivers%20Ch/ND__265

These helicopters are used by Navy for communication duties (Passenger transport), Cargo/ Material transport, Casualty evacuation, Search & Rescue, Areal survey & Patrolling, Emergency medical services, electronic news gathering, Anti hijacking, Off shore operation and Under-slung operation.


It seems the 8 new built chetak are only for utility role and not the Match variant for ASW role.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Snehashis » 01 Oct 2019 02:22

Rakesh and Sankum have a look here.

Indian Navy Will Boost Kamov Fleet With New Carrier

The Indian Navy is set to receive four additional Kamov Ka-28 anti-submarine warfare and five Ka-31 radar picket helicopters when its new Vikramaditya aircraft carrier is delivered, hopefully by the end of 2013. The new rotorcraft will supplement nine Ka-31s delivered between 1999 and 2004 and 16 Ka-28s that entered service in the late 1980s. The Indian Navy has been a good customer to the Russian helicopter manufacturer and has five Ka-25PLs that it inherited from the former Soviet navy in the 1980s. If India opts to order more Talwar-class frigates from Russia, this could lead to further contracts for Russian-made naval helicopters.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 01 Oct 2019 02:28

Very nice find Snehasis Saar!

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Snehashis » 01 Oct 2019 04:11

Rakesh, no saar please. :)

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 21 Nov 2019 01:16

Rajya Sabha TV on P8I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4IUR32AlK8

Couple of interesting points - posting after 8 hour viewing gap.
1. Older gen Russian birds were long in tooth - we knew that - Tu142 had great range
2. Getting more refueling rights in far flung locations will help control much larger portions. Basing out of car nicobar and Seychelles will dominate quite large swaths.
3. ASW is the main function
4. 2200 kms + 4-6 hours on station is the range.
5. Using far superior technology forces subs to remain submerged and not take chances.,
6. 22 units are good for now - more drones / satellites will improve first look.
7. Harpoons were first tested by P8I.


Outside of this:
10-20 odd sea guardian drones possible
C295 based ASuW will free up P8I to focus exclusively on important tasks.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 21 Nov 2019 01:19

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24795/India_To_Purchase_10_Fewer_MQ_9_Sea_Guardian_Drones_Of_Previous_22_for__2B_For_Its_Navy

India is likely to approve the proposal to buy 12 MQ-9 Sea Guardian drones from the US for its Navy and not 22 of them for $2 billion as planned last year.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 21 Nov 2019 01:49

https://sldinfo.com/2019/05/us-working-with-india-on-enhanced-asw-capability/


Clearly, as the challenge from the Chinese Navy grows, the US needs to work with core allies and partners to shape more effective defenses in the years ahead.

India is clearly a partner in this effort.

According to an article published in April 2019by our partner India Strategic, the US State Department has approved sale of MH-60R ASW helicopters to India.

New Delhi. The US State Department has approved the sale of 24 Lockheed Martin MH-60R anti-submarine helicopters to India, paving the way for final negotiations to set the price and what onboard equipment and weapons will be required by the Indian Navy.

The Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) of the State Department announced approval on April 2, under the Foreign Military Sale (FMS) programme “for an estimated $2.6 billion” for the multi-mission helicopters. Procedurally, DSCA has to notify the US Congress, which it did, saying the proposed sale will strengthen the US-Indian strategic relationship and “improve the security of a major defensive partner which continues to be an important force for political stability, peace, and economic progress in the Indo-Pacific and South Asia region.”

This is the first time that the Indian Navy will get one of the most advanced Anti-submarine helicopters, equipped with Raytheon’s MK-54 torpedoes, Lockheed Martin’s Hellfire missiles, Advanced Precision Kill Weapon System (APKWS) and its Rockets, Night Fighting systems, sophisticated radars and secure communication devices. Just about the same that the US Navy uses.

The Indian Navy had decided about five years ago to go in for this helicopter, then Made and Sold by Sikorsky, and as usual there were procedural hiccups in India. Later, Lockheed Martin acquired Sikorsky, and the deal was closed.

Air Vice Marshal AJS Walia (Retd) and later Dr Vivek Lall, Lockheed Martin’s Vice President for Strategy and Business Development, coordinated the negotiations with Indian authorities. The Ministry of Defence will now set up a Price Negotiations Committee (PNC) to finalise the deal, and the supply of helicopters will commence around three years after the first payment is made.

Indian Navy sources said the helicopters are needed at the earliest possible, and the US company may be asked to expedite the delivery on As Soon As Possible basis.

As for the Weapons and Systems on board, DSCA said:

The Government of India has requested to buy twenty-four (24) MH-60R Multi-Mission helicopters, equipped with the following:

Thirty (30) APS-153(V) Multi-Mode radars (24 installed, 6 spares); sixty (60) T700-GE-401C engines (48 installed and 12 spares); twenty-four (24) Airborne Low Frequency System (ALFS) (20 installed, 4 spares); thirty (30) AN/AAS-44C(V) Multi-Spectral Targeting System (24 installed, 6 spares); fifty-four (54) Embedded Global Positioning System/Inertial Navigation Systems (EGI) with Selective Availability/Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM) (48 installed, 6 spares); one thousand (1,000) AN/SSQ-36/53/62 sonobuoys; ten (10) AGM-114 Hellfire missiles; five (5) AGM-114 M36-E9 Captive Air Training Missiles (CATM); four (4) AGM-114Q Hellfire Training missiles; thirty-eight (38) Advanced Precision Kill Weapons System (APKWS) rockets; thirty (30) MK-54 torpedoes; twelve (12) M-240D Crew Served guns; twelve (12) GAU-21 Crew Served guns; two (2) Naval Strike Missile Emulators; four (4) Naval Strike Missile Captive Inert Training missiles; one (1) MH-60B/R Excess Defense Article (EDA) USN legacy aircraft.

Also included are seventy (70) AN/AVS-9 Night Vision Devices; fifty-four (54) AN/ARC-210 RT-1990A(C) radios with COMSEC (48 installed, 6 spares); thirty (30) AN/ARC-220 High Frequency radios (24 installed, 6 spares); thirty (30) AN/APX-123 Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) transponders (24 installed, 6 spares); spare engine containers; facilities study, design, and construction; spare and repair parts; support and test equipment; communication equipment; ferry support; publications and technical documentation; personnel training and training equipment; US Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support.

The total estimated cost is $2.6 billion.


Why 20 ALFS installed vs 24?

Image

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 21 Nov 2019 02:03

C295W as MPA for coast guard / navy along with P8I in support role.

https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/02/future-maritime-patrol-part-4-cheaper-options/

The MPA version has the fully integrated tactical system mission suite (FITS) configured with four operator stations, sonobuoy dispenser, MAD boom, self defence equipment, 6 under wing hard points and an electro optical turret.


Image

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FITS is the same system as fitted to the Brazilian P3-AM’s

Endurance is reportedly 11 hours or 6 hours on station at 200nm range. + 30-60 minutes for C295W

Compare that with 4 hours at 1,200nm ballpark for the P8, A319MPA, P1 and P3 and it should be obvious where the difference lies.

Stores capacity is also lower, and so is speed and altitude.

It can (and has) been fitted with a refuelling probe though.


Airbus Military are continually improving the basic design, most recently the adoption of winglets in the C295W.

These are said to deliver and extra 30-60 minutes endurance or 1,000kg payload, improved altitude, hot/high performance and reduced fuel costs.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 21 Nov 2019 13:06

There was a report that 10 extra KA-31AEW helos were being bought for our CVs and surface warships. The IL-38s with BMos-NG will soldier on until 2030 and the extra P-8s will add to the LRMP fleet. What is vital is a quick decision on the ASW helo., required for our primary surface combatants and over 100+ are required. The med. sized MRP requirement could be filled by C-295 variants.However, what the IN really needs to replace the unique Bears is a supersonic LR strike aircraft like Backfires or even if affordable, Blackjacks.

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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 29 Nov 2019 01:54

https://indianexpress.com/article/india/navys-ultra-modern-p-8i-mr-aircraft-successfully-completes-mission-6123261/

A P-8I Maritime Reconnaissance (MR) aircraft Friday successfully undertook an operational mission from Naval Air Enclave (NAE) in Cochin


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