Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Feb 2020 11:31

Yes,the eqpt. will be new but would be current std. ,plus given the push,it doesn't have to take ages,most could be done over here given our decades long experience of operating the bird.The platforms great ability in terms of performance .And the cost. 1/8th that of a P-8I for our upgraded ones.When you need numbers in a crisis monitoring PLAN activity from Djibouti,E.African coast.Gwadar,Hanbantota,Burma to the Malacca Straits and Indonesian chokepoints, you need LRMP birds with long legs.A dozen + P-8 Is supported by another dozen IL-38s of which we already possess 5 for just around $300M is a steal,giving us far better ASW/ ASuW capability than just 12+ P-8Is and only 5 IL-38SDs. Smaller C-295s don't have the legs,endurance and payload.
Anyway,let's agree to disagree and move on.

John · Post by **John** » 16 Feb 2020 11:51

Philip wrote:Yes,the eqpt. will be new but would be current std. ,plus given the push,it doesn't have to take ages,most could be done over here given our decades long experience of operating the bird.The platforms great ability in terms of performance .And the cost. 1/8th that of a P-8I for our upgraded ones.When you need numbers in a crisis monitoring PLAN activity from Djibouti,E.African coast.Gwadar,Hanbantota,Burma to the Malacca Straits and Indonesian chokepoints, you need LRMP birds with long legs.A dozen + P-8 Is supported by another dozen IL-38s of which we already possess 5 for just around $300M is a steal,giving us far better ASW/ ASuW capability than just 12+ P-8Is and only 5 IL-38SDs. Smaller C-295s don't have the legs,endurance and payload.
Anyway,let's agree to disagree and move on.

Seem to be going in circles,Once again it is not 1/8th even back in 2001 it cost 40 million ( final cost was 205 million for 5 this is cause Russia demanded more money so it is not 30 million each. ) to upgrade them and that’s around 100 million in current dollars per plane. Yes there is something called inflation.

Also the radar and upgrade are found to be quite lacking and one of reasons navy considering using Israel for upgrading the rest and Tu-144 but Russia threw hissy fit forcing us to abandon. If Russia hadn’t we would have actually purchased more used Il-38 and upgraded them ourselves thank goodness that didn’t happen. IMO best move it to move towards more UAV to fill gaps in surveillance ( I don’t support purchase of C-295 either for that reason).

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 16 Feb 2020 17:42

John wrote: IMO best move it to move towards more UAV to fill gaps in surveillance ( I don’t support purchase of C-295 either for that reason).

Agreed. Like I mentioned in my long post above, MALE UAVs (Low flying Naval Rustom with MAD, buoys or diesel sniffers) controlled by P8 or shore based Satcom is the most cost effective and easiest to scale. C295 is best used left alone in its main job as a medium cargo hauler.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 16 Feb 2020 23:48

4-5 C295 based MPA aircraft based out of Lakshadweep and another 4-5 based out of Mauritius along with (Drones for ASuW) work can effectively provide oversight over all SLOCs and anti-piracy efforts.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Feb 2020 04:57

Is this real?

https://twitter.com/Parth7038/status/12 ... 38658?s=20 ---> How target-detection and attack capabilities of P-8i were downgraded. They basically made it half-blind. High-Res SAR/ISAR removed. Precision Targeting capability removed.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 19 Feb 2020 05:27

Rakesh wrote:Is this real?

Yes this is real. The modifications for the Export variant for India involved downgrading of certain capabilities unique to US system (and partners), and additions of other capabilities specified by the Indian Navy (and not found on USN systems).

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 19 Feb 2020 06:48

Probably impossible to get the same capabilities as the US build. We knew there would be a downgrade. How much loss does it present?

The only true way forward is to always have your own build on a platform you control.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 19 Feb 2020 07:02

Program partners get capability more similar to the USN, and then again some capability is only shared with a select few partners and yet other that is shared with no one. That said, this is upfront and transparent. The IN and the MOD evaluated a specified and contracted capability spec and not a USN spec. The export variant had a dedicated test program as well, both for capability that was downgraded and capability that was added and not found on US or partner systems.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 19 Feb 2020 08:19

Addition of Air to Air detection and tracking... like a mini AWACs of sorts? Very interesting

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Feb 2020 10:14

I'd team up with the French on A320 MPA, get the airframe and add Indian electronics and weapons.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 19 Feb 2020 10:38

brar_w wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Is this real?
Yes this is real. The modifications for the Export variant for India involved downgrading of certain capabilities unique to US system (and partners), and additions of other capabilities specified by the Indian Navy (and not found on USN systems).

Yes, I remember asking whether P-8I will be the first Air to Air AESA operated by Indian forces, given IN lack of a decicated AWACS this was supposed to detect CM's and hostile aircraft. Now the other forces are also using it.

People look at the negatives but forget to look at the positive- addition of A2A detection capability.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 19 Feb 2020 11:01

Rakesh wrote:Is this real?

https://twitter.com/Parth7038/status/12 ... 38658?s=20 ---> How target-detection and attack capabilities of P-8i were downgraded. They basically made it half-blind. High-Res SAR/ISAR removed. Precision Targeting capability removed.

Expected. All the more reason why we should reverse engineer P8I. Just like the IAF AWACS program, the IN should have its own AWACS office which aims towards building up our own IP in this area, inclusive of drones.

I am a bit intrigued by the 30m SAR resolution requirement. Even our higher flying satellites can do better than that. Not sure why we had to settle for less. With our extensive experience with EO, SAR and Radar satellites (RISAT, Oceansat, Cartosat etc), we should be able to put these sensors together in a nice Navy-AWACS package.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Feb 2020 11:46

brar_w wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Is this real?
Yes this is real. The modifications for the Export variant for India involved downgrading of certain capabilities unique to US system (and partners), and additions of other capabilities specified by the Indian Navy (and not found on USN systems).

And still "much" better than anything else available in the market or home grown.

Even without 1 foot and 3 foot resolution it can detect midget submarines operated by Pakistan.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 19 Feb 2020 12:01

All countries that export keep the most potent product for their own use e.g. even our beloved Russians keep the 40N6 missile for the Russian Air Force and the 40N6E for exports as part of the S400 system. Never been able to find out online as to what the difference is between the domestic and export variants of this missile.

But if the export version is better than anything else available in the market why should the buyer grumble.......whether it is the P8 or the S400...

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Feb 2020 12:06

kit wrote:Yes, correct so when we say the Poseidon in context to the IN, it's capabilities are not exactly similar to a Poseidon in USN service.

USN P-8A Poseidon
IN P-8I Neptune
Quite different aircraft

kit · Post by **kit** » 19 Feb 2020 17:04

tsarkar wrote:
kit wrote:Yes, correct so when we say the Poseidon in context to the IN, it's capabilities are not exactly similar to a Poseidon in USN service.
USN P-8A Poseidon
IN P-8I Neptune
Quite different aircraft

yes , i was referring to some of brar's posts in context to the poseidon when it is not relevant to the neptunes

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 19 Feb 2020 17:36

abhik wrote:I'd team up with the French on A320 MPA, get the airframe and add Indian electronics and weapons.

That would be bad idea. The European MPA (Planned IOC in the 2030's) is similarly sized and likely will be more expensive since they do not have Economies of Scale. Additionally, with smaller installed base, upgrades will be less frequent and more costly. Most importantly, it will not exactly be the best complement to the P-8 I's, which the IN likes and continues to order more of and one that will be operated by others in the region. The best complement to the P-8 is going to be a more missionized aircraft that is smaller and cheaper, and/or an unmanned aircraft that can play an important role in monitoring large swaths of the ocean for prolonged periods, and help the P-8I's with closing kill chains faster. There is plenty of indegenous capability that can be leveraged to develop a smaller missionized complement to the P-8 either based on the C-295 , or something even smaller. Over time, many of those sub-systems can be miniaturized and added to a long loiter UAV. In the USN and with some other users, the Triton is going to serve as a complement to the P-8's. There is no reason why the IN can't create or seek a smaller, cheaper UAV solution that still gets the job done in the IOR.

ldev wrote:But if the export version is better than anything else available in the market why should the buyer grumble.......whether it is the P8 or the S400...

Systems are evaluated based on both a specified threshold requirement (I need X for my needs) or based on a specific performance contractually promised by the OEM who is on contract. If what the host nation/ OEM is not willing to provide performance specs that meet operator needs then you just walk away and continue to survey for OEM's who can. If the products in question meet or exceed that then these deals are pursued further. In this case, Boeing would have promised to deliver a specific threshold performance based on the export restrictions placed on it. It, and its suppliers, were then contracted by the US Government to test and validate the performance requirement via a dedicated, India-variant specific, test program which started long before the P-8 I itself was rolled out. Things like Air-Air SA modes, and MAD capability, along with India specific sub-systems for communication were part of the P-8I in addition to downgraded capabilities elsewhere due to the export nature of the product. All those were part of the test and validation program.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Feb 2020 19:35

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0916404224 ---> CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security) clears MH-60 Romeo MRH. Re-up of my report last April on why it’s needed. ASW boost for Indian Navy. Can work with P-8I. Navy looking to buy helicopters already built for US Navy to speed deliveries. Nirmala Sitharaman very wisely increased numbers from 16 to 24. Did not ‘stagger’ the purchase.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Feb 2020 19:38

With New P-8I Deal, Indian Navy could get advanced U.S. tech earlier denied
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/02 ... -back.html
18 Feb 2020

The ninth P-8I for the Indian Navy seen here under construction months ago

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Feb 2020 19:40

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1230104535370215425 ---> The Indian Navy’s 24 MH-60R helicopters, cleared for contract today, will be armed with Kongsberg ASA anti-ship Naval Strike Missiles. Our recent piece on other weapons being pitched.

MBDA Dials Lockheed On 2 Anti-Ship Missiles For Indian Navy’s Incoming Helos
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/10 ... helos.html
Oct 05, 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Feb 2020 19:45

Glad this deal has finally gone through.

Trump’s visit may seal helicopter deal
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 854024.ece
18 Feb 2020

There are several big-ticket deals in the pipeline. These include six Boeing P-8I long-range surveillance aircraft and 13 BAE Systems-built 127-mm MK-45 naval gun systems worth around $1 billion for the Navy, six AH-64E Apache attack helicopters for the Army, 30 armed drones for the three services and a tactical air defence system for Delhi. However, these are at various stages of procurement... “Apart from the deal for MH-60R helicopters, an announcement is possible on P-8I and Apache,” a second official source said.

Please approve those six additional P-8Is, Mk 45 naval guns and 30 armed drones!

No Apaches for Army needed when LCH is available.

Given the urgency, the U.S. is likely to take some MH-60R helicopters from its newest aircraft carrier, USS Gerald Ford, which is undergoing upgrades. “We are hopeful of getting four or five MH-60s from USS Gerald Ford once the deal is signed,” a Navy official said.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Feb 2020 20:16

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 0916404224 ----> CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security) clears MH-60 Romeo MRH. Re-up of my report last April on why it’s needed. ASW boost for Indian Navy. Can work with P-8I. Navy looking to buy helicopters already built for US Navy to speed deliveries. Nirmala Sitharaman very wisely increased numbers from 16 to 24. Did not ‘stagger’ the purchase.

Four weapons station will make it the most heavily armed naval helicopters in the world. Two HSM missiles and two torpedoes.

IN Seakings with two Sea Eagle missiles are the most heavily armed naval helicopters in the world today. Sea Eagle out ranges Exocet in Pakistani service.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Feb 2020 22:03

BAE Systems APKWS Guided Rockets Debut In Indian Service On Naval MH-60Rs
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/02 ... -60rs.html
19 Feb 2020

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 19 Feb 2020 23:29

Two opportunities come to mind, when reading about the MH-60 purchase:

1) The replacement of Hellfire missiles by our own Helina
2) Mounting the CLGM as a supplement to the APKWS system

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/02 ... -60rs.html

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 19 Feb 2020 23:33

tsarkar wrote:Four weapons station will make it the most heavily armed naval helicopters in the world. Two HSM missiles and two torpedoes.

Good point. And of note, this "armed" configuration is actually what the USN itself has on its roadmap of incrementally adding capability to system. The IN will get that from the start.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Feb 2020 00:51

Thank God! Finally, after years and years of waiting, the IN is getting these ASuW and ASW helos. The best ASuW helos currently in service anywhere. This is a worthwhile import, without a shadow of a doubt.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Feb 2020 01:48

APKWS is the most interesting part of the weapon package. Cheap, laser guided kit for rockets.

Hope DRDO has a similar project. A land launched version could be quite useful on the LoC.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 20 Feb 2020 03:41

It even makes sense to cancel the 111 NUH order - give an order of 60-80 for Naval dhruv with folding tail and rotors and double this order from 24 to 48.

IMO, HAL won't get around to making a tranny just for a small naval requirement. This solves that problem.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 20 Feb 2020 05:41

The Navy is setting itself up for another MRCA like contest on the NMRH. Imagine how expensive 124 NMRH will be, when 24 MH-60Rs cost $2.4 billion, especially given that the MH-60R will be the favorite in that contest as well..even H-225M Caracals are not cheap. These are damn expensive helos, nearly as costly as modern 4th gen fighters. And the Navy will put up such huge numbers that even a service with a larger budget like the IAF will never be able to fund.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 20 Feb 2020 07:41

Kartik wrote:The Navy is setting itself up for another MRCA like contest on the NMRH. Imagine how expensive 124 NMRH will be, when 24 MH-60Rs cost $2.4 billion, especially given that the MH-60R will be the favorite in that contest as well..even H-225M Caracals are not cheap. These are damn expensive helos, nearly as costly as modern 4th gen fighters. And the Navy will put up such huge numbers that even a service with a larger budget like the IAF will never be able to fund.

Where will all these helicopters be operated from? Unless we buy an LHD soon, do we have the surface ships to carry so many helicopters of this size?

kit · Post by **kit** » 20 Feb 2020 14:59

nachiket wrote:
Kartik wrote:The Navy is setting itself up for another MRCA like contest on the NMRH. Imagine how expensive 124 NMRH will be, when 24 MH-60Rs cost $2.4 billion, especially given that the MH-60R will be the favorite in that contest as well..even H-225M Caracals are not cheap. These are damn expensive helos, nearly as costly as modern 4th gen fighters. And the Navy will put up such huge numbers that even a service with a larger budget like the IAF will never be able to fund.
Where will all these helicopters be operated from? Unless we buy an LHD soon, do we have the surface ships to carry so many helicopters of this size?

Most of the IN frigates and destroyers are currently deployed without their complementary helos , i would say IN needs more than this number when the AC is taken into account.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Feb 2020 03:18

kit wrote:
nachiket wrote: Where will all these helicopters be operated from? Unless we buy an LHD soon, do we have the surface ships to carry so many helicopters of this size?
Most of the IN frigates and destroyers are currently deployed without their complementary helos , i would say IN needs more than this number when the AC is taken into account.

More than 148? (24 current order + 124 proposed)

Even if every corvette, frigate, destroyer in the fleet is capable of carrying 2 MH-60R's (which I do not believe is the case) that would mean 74 ships. Plus, I don't think we are retiring all the Ka-28s and Ka-31's in service. Only the Sea Kings will be retired (of which we have around 20).

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 21 Feb 2020 05:07

kit wrote:
nachiket wrote: Where will all these helicopters be operated from? Unless we buy an LHD soon, do we have the surface ships to carry so many helicopters of this size?
Most of the IN frigates and destroyers are currently deployed without their complementary helos , i would say IN needs more than this number when the AC is taken into account.

Could you break it down as to why 24+124 NMRH are required for the number of surface combatants that the IN has?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 21 Feb 2020 08:05

Once these MH60R are in, we could technically acquire cheaper used units that are surplus for US navy. Their LCH order was reduced so they have 120-150 more MH60R than they need. Hope if more are added they are all ASW units.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 21 Feb 2020 08:21

Cybaru wrote:Once these MH60R are in, we could technically acquire cheaper used units that are surplus for US navy. Their LCH order was reduced so they have 120-150 more MH60R than they need. Hope if more are added they are all ASW units.

The reduction on the LCS program was offset by the addition of at least 20 FFGX frigates so the surplus ( which is not as much) is only temporary until those ships start delivering.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 21 Feb 2020 10:49

Kartik wrote:
kit wrote:
Most of the IN frigates and destroyers are currently deployed without their complementary helos , i would say IN needs more than this number when the AC is taken into account.
Could you break it down as to why 24+124 NMRH are required for the number of surface combatants that the IN has?

In the first page of this thread the split is there which is from Vayu article.
Total 147 NMRH (24+123) requirement.

Split
90 ASW version
33 Commando version
24 utility version

90 ASW split is 24+ 66.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 21 Feb 2020 10:58

If we consider ALL hulls that can support a medium helo, to be on ASW duty during hot times, then OPVs, newer corvettes etc too can carry these helos. That will come close to 50 of the 90 ASW. Leaving aside 20 for maintanence mode, remaining 20c ould be shore-defense pickets of places like Andamans, Vizag, Mumbai, Karwar, newer bases etc

Even 50 of these helos are reason enough for subs to be cautious

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 21 Feb 2020 11:02

The other rotor aircraft which will be inducted or countinue to be in service.

Ka28 14 nos (10 ASW+ 4 Training)

Ka31 24 nos

Naval Dhruv 24 nos ( 16 ASW+ 8 Utility)

Chetak 8 nos

NLUH 111 nos

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Feb 2020 11:42

nachiket wrote:Even if every corvette, frigate, destroyer in the fleet is capable of carrying 2 MH-60R's (which I do not believe is the case)

All ships since old INS Taragiri and Vindhyagiri, including Kukhri & Kora class and ICG OPV have Seaking sized aviation facilities. The Seaking was also from Sikorsky and Seahawk can adequately be supported by infrastructure designed for Seaking.

nachiket wrote:More than 148? (24 current order + 124 proposed)

In addition to Aircraft Carriers and destroyers/frigates/corvettes/OPVs,

LPD's like Jalashwa can be very quickly reconfigured as ASW carriers accommodating 6 Seakings.

Same for tankers like Deepak and Shakti that have huge aviation facilities. Having two helicopters onboard tankers with 1. torpedo 2. NSM 3. Hellfire 4. APKWS 5. Browning 6. MMG machine guns covers the threat of 1. Enemy Submarines 2. Large Enemy Combatants 3. Small enemy combatants 4. Pirate/Terrorist boats 5. / 6. Individual 72 hoor aspirants. Tankers with deployed helicopters removes the need for surface escorts.

The Coast Guard comes under the operational command of Indian Navy during war and the offensive component of their OPV's will be fulfilled by Seakings/Seahawks with the above weaponry.

IN deploys Seakings for shore defence of naval bases without deployed ships and airfields, eg, Porbandar, Dwarka, Okha, Jakau, etc against all the above mentioned threats.

IN also deploys armed helicopters on ONGC oil rigs for Anti Piracy / Anti Terrorist and other missions.

The 148 are less than what is required.

nachiket wrote:I don't think we are retiring all the Ka-28s and Ka-31's in service.

Ka-28 will be retired soon. They're sent to Russia for periodic maintenance and Russian Media obfuscates their return as new delivery.

Ka-31 is in a totally different league.

The extensive surface warfare component of the MH-60R against large combatants to small boats is completely overlooked in the discussion on this thread.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Feb 2020 11:52

All services - IAF, IN, IA, ICG, BSF, ITBP, CRPF and CISF need huge number of helicopters. The CAPFs are spending a lot on leasing private choppers often owned and flown by ex-service pilots. The helicopter is like the Jeep of WW2. Its needed in huge numbers.