Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

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Manish_P
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

tsarkar wrote:...

The 148 are less than what is required.

...
:) Always look forward to reading your authoritative posts, Sir!
tsarkar wrote: The extensive surface warfare component of the MH-60R against large combatants to small boats is completely overlooked in the discussion on this thread.
Request you to please expand on this if possible.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by sankum »

The 111 nos NLUH will have torpedo/ depth charge attack capability guided by other platforms.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

sankum wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Could you break it down as to why 24+124 NMRH are required for the number of surface combatants that the IN has?
In the first page of this thread the split is there which is from Vayu article.
Total 147 NMRH (24+123) requirement.

Split
90 ASW version
33 Commando version
24 utility version

90 ASW split is 24+ 66.
Thanks for posting !
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

These tweets are with regards to the MH-60R helicopter....

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 27488?s=20 ---> A very very nice helicopter and obviously much needed considering the utterly horrific state of the IN’s rotary wing fleet. But just 24 units doesn’t change much. The IN’s total NMRH requirement is 123 units so this deal isn’t even 20% of the demand met.

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 85632?s=20 ---> Anyway, hope the IN sees the light ASAP and takes these 24 as a stop-gap to meet most urgent needs and then invests wholly in the N-IMRH from HAL. Looking at the price for just 24 MH60s, the cost for a further 99 would be eye watering.

Image

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 70688?s=20 ---> It’s the only viable option they have if they ever want to see their NMRH requirement met
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Click on these links below to learn more of the role of the MH-60R helicopter.

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... 33991?s=20 ----> India to acquire 24 MH-60R choppers for $2.6 billion. Here's what the experts think about the deal.

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... 66146?s=20 ----> India to buy 24 MH-60R choppers! Here's all you need to know about this deal.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

The fact that we can, with the stroke of a pen, remove the blacklist of Leonardo, means that we can do the same for Embraer. All the excuses that there will be a political backlash against BJP are just that - excuses. I'd argue that its far more important to remove Embraer from the blacklist and place an immediate order for 6 more Netras. Its shameful that the IAF is cannibalizing the DRDO Netra because we don't have any more.

Its a battle-proven platform. What more do we need? Even Pukistan has more round-the-clock AEW coverage than us, as we found post-Balakot. Utterly unacceptable state of affairs!
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by A Deshmukh »

If we have A320/319 based plans, why do we need Embraer based Netras now?
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Those plans will take a decade to materialize as flying platforms. Netras can fly next year or at least the year after, if ordered today.

War is looming and forget China, we don't have parity even with Pakistan. We are cannibalizing DRDO Netra + re-purposing P8Is for the LAC (though admittedly for a more GMTI role).

For something as critical as a "force multiplier", we are lackadaisical about it, even after a couple of mini-war experiences.

I wish the IAF Chief comes out publicly demanding Netras, as he does for the MRFA. The GOI has shown that they can de-blacklist. But the force requirements are defined by the IAF. They need to do the table-thumping.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by A Deshmukh »

Prem Kumar wrote:Those plans will take a decade to materialize as flying platforms. Netras can fly next year or at least the year after, if ordered today.
A319 are planes in flying condition. they have to be fitted with Antennaes and tested.

Embraers need to be ordered and manufactured.

What are the timelines for both?
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

If their blacklisting is reversed, this could also open up the possibility for sourcing second hand aircraft and having Embraer convert those. Could be quicker, and cheaper as well. The few A-319's the IAF is acquiring won't all meet the long term need so they could always do with more numerous lower cost platforms to complement them. Given the number of A319's is fixed because of the Air India divestment, this would at least preserve the option of acquiring additional AEW capacity if needed.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by A Deshmukh »

Sourcing second-hand aircraft owned by AI and sourcing from some 3rd world owner will not be the same - in terms of quality checks and certifications, and time & effort (& accountability) required for the same.
Buying new embraer means a built time of few years (say 3-6 yrs).

in that much time frame, all A319 should be ready.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

If it is something important and considered urgent it can very easily be done. OEM's source (used), refurbish, convert and certify on behalf of military customers and this is and has been done on several global programs so wouldn't be the first (Boeing routinely offers this and is in fact doing this with one customer on the E7 AEW&C. Same for Airbus and others like Gulfstream). Having an option doesn't hurt and as I mentioned, the A-319 number is fixed as there are no more aircraft and the demand is likely to outstrip the A319's currently marked for conversion. If they want to have the ability to build up some quick AEW capacity (beyond A319 and the 3 Netra) this side of 2030 then this is a perfectly logical way. Anything else (like A330 etc) is going to be longer term. Buying more of what you already have is much easier to incorporate into the operational force.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

DRDO's proposed timeline is 4 - 7 years for the new Airbus AWACS. Sounds very optimistic to me. Though the components have been tested, its a new aircraft and once its fully kitted out, extensive flight trials would be needed. We have memories of Airavat. Then comes the integration with existing aircraft and other assets.

1) Embraer-Netras will arrive much earlier. They can be plugged into our force structure right away
2) They will be cheaper
3) They will help cover a wider area because you can buy more for the same budget. You can divide them between the Northern, Eastern and Western sectors
4) It de-risks the Airbus AWACS program

Some more use-cases:

5) Our airspace is large and we should even look at maritime air surveillance (something that the P8I won't do)
6) Like the Sukhois or the Tejas, the Netras can be a testbed for a host of other surveillance sensors like GMTI, SAR, Electronic Snooping etc
7) We can look at export orders

We need to look at Netra-1 and Netra-2 like the way we look at light vs medium vs heavy fighters. One is not necessarily a replacement for the other. We need a mix of them and each serves its own function

We shouldn't let our existing R&D investment go waste. Squeeze the most value out of it
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

This is the way Indian forces deliberately operate - keep asking for a different product to keep delaying its induction in meaningful numbers. The goal being that they don't want the benefits of the indigenous system to outweigh imports and thereby strengthen domestic MIC. It makes no sense to fly only 3 Netra1s when we are defending against two extremely hostile enemies. A larger Netra force would have allowed for the next gen Netras to be developed properly and without cutting corners. But then - that would make too much sense.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Just thinking aloud
Is it possible to have any type of UAVs for ASW work ? The UAV would need to have a dunking sonar and at least 2 light weight ASW torpedoes, along with all the other paraphernalia of a UAV. As a dunking sonar is necessary it would be a type of quadcopter.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

Kersi wrote:Just thinking aloud
Is it possible to have any type of UAVs for ASW work ? The UAV would need to have a dunking sonar and at least 2 light weight ASW torpedoes, along with all the other paraphernalia of a UAV. As a dunking sonar is necessary it would be a type of quadcopter.
While a helicopter can dunk a sonar, it limits its search area, and there are only so many helos.

You can use disposable devices that are deployed at specific spots in the search grid. The devices communicate with airborne assets helping narrow the grid.

Hovering UAVs are a possibility, but they'll need to be huge to carry the sonar and be suitable for all sea conditions (imagine one in 20ft waves). This also limits the numbers you can bring to bear on the enemy.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

JTull wrote:
Kersi wrote:Just thinking aloud
Is it possible to have any type of UAVs for ASW work ? The UAV would need to have a dunking sonar and at least 2 light weight ASW torpedoes, along with all the other paraphernalia of a UAV. As a dunking sonar is necessary it would be a type of quadcopter.
While a helicopter can dunk a sonar, it limits its search area, and there are only so many helos.

You can use disposable devices that are deployed at specific spots in the search grid. The devices communicate with airborne assets helping narrow the grid.

Hovering UAVs are a possibility, but they'll need to be huge to carry the sonar and be suitable for all sea conditions (imagine one in 20ft waves). This also limits the numbers you can bring to bear on the enemy.
On second thought, dunking sonar can be replaced by a sonobuoy system. Say each UAV carries say 5 sonobuoy and 2 torpedoes. No doubt it will be a big UAV
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Kersi wrote:Just thinking aloud
Is it possible to have any type of UAVs for ASW work ? The UAV would need to have a dunking sonar and at least 2 light weight ASW torpedoes, along with all the other paraphernalia of a UAV. As a dunking sonar is necessary it would be a type of quadcopter.
The USN is doing just that (and it might be on offer to India in the future - QUAD duties)

Navy and General Atomics developing ASW unmanned aircraft to help P-8A Poseidon with submarine hunting
The U.S. Navy and General Atomics in November used sonobuoys dropped from an MQ-9A Block V Reaper unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) to track a simulated submarine target on a U.S. Navy Pacific test range, in what the contractor says is the first time an aerial drone has deployed a self-contained anti-submarine warfare (ASW) system.

The Reaper deployed a mix of 10 sonobuoys -- deployed to measure water conditions and listen for submarine targets -- then received and transmitted the data in real time to a monitoring station at Laguna Flight Operations Facility located at Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona.

The test was part of developing the General Atomics MQ-9B SeaGuardian submarine-hunting UAV. The Reaper managed to acquire and track an expendable ASW training target for three hours using UYS-505 acoustic processing software from General Dynamics Mission Systems in Fairfax, Va.
Last edited by Manish_P on 09 Mar 2023 20:16, edited 2 times in total.
Manish_P
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

JTull wrote:
Kersi wrote:Just thinking aloud
Is it possible to have any type of UAVs for ASW work ? The UAV would need to have a dunking sonar and at least 2 light weight ASW torpedoes, along with all the other paraphernalia of a UAV. As a dunking sonar is necessary it would be a type of quadcopter.
While a helicopter can dunk a sonar, it limits its search area, and there are only so many helos..
The advantage is having the localised capability. A Destroyer/Frigate can carry rotary UAV and provide a local protective bubble if the land based assets are just too far..

Northrop Grumman Pitching Fire Scout Helicopter Drone for ASW Missions
Late last year Northrop Grumman took its unmanned helicopter, which is designed to keep an eye on the ocean’s surface, for a test to look deeper under the water, company officials recently told USNI News.

In a Navy-sanctioned internal research and development test in late October, Northrop slung a launcher on an MQ-8C Fire Scout filled with miniature sonobuoys made by U.K. company Ultra, Dan Redman with Northrop Grumman’s Fire Scout Program told USNI News in an interview earlier this month

The idea was that the endurance of the MQ-8C could extend the anti-submarine warfare bubble around a surface ship beyond what a manned helicopter could provide. The endurance of the Fire Scout allows it to fly further from a ship than the current crop of MH-60R Sea Hawk ASWs currently employed by the U.S and several of its allies.

“You’re pushing the search out away from the ship, up to 100 miles on an aircraft that can fly for about 12 hours,” Redman said.
“It keeps the ship and the crew out of harm’s way… You do have the ability to go out and search water that you may be in tomorrow. It extends the bubble for the ship farther out.”
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

Small unmanned helo which can deploy sonobuoys will be a force multiplier for a flotilla. You can send it to to target area deploy sonobuoys, and then hover in a safe area, acting as a communication relay to the flotilla.

I wish I had come across this fire scout version before.

Brilliant!

Thanks @Kesri for kick-starting this discussion
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Kersi wrote:Just thinking aloud
Is it possible to have any type of UAVs for ASW work ? The UAV would need to have a dunking sonar and at least 2 light weight ASW torpedoes, along with all the other paraphernalia of a UAV. As a dunking sonar is necessary it would be a type of quadcopter.
Depends on the kind of UAV in question.

The ASW work is done by both fixed wing and rotory winged manned assets.

It is possible for a sensor equipped ( MAD, Radar, Sonar Bouy) UAV to offload data processing load to shore based operators using data links. The torpedo release can also be done remotely.

A UAV with 2 to 3 tons of payload should be capable of being used as an anti submarine platform. With 2 Sonar Bouy deployment systems on the wings and 1 light weight torpedo on the centre line.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Maybe we can start a new thread on this topic. Of course if our Gods, aka administrators, allow :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

Helo UAV can be embarked on most surface ships. Fixed wing UAVs are really shore based. Even Masa is still experimenting and just from their flat tops.

A good marinised platform will have lot of applications. ASW, AEW, Comm relay, SAR, etc.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Masa is experimenting all right, but at a totally different level.

So, those Fire Scouts are testing "Sensors that are uniquely suitable for ASW applications and are not being developed on other programs". Testing: "Electrical, power, and mechanical components suitable for use in challenging environments for ASW systems", as in "the deep ocean or in Arctic regions", "New concepts for coherent processing of multiple acoustic sensors and line arrays", "Technologies that achieve superior speed of decision for computationally challenging models or predictions", ............

All that from the Office of Naval Research -> Ocean Battlespace Sensing -> ASW.

It is my understanding that these guys are interested in working with India on fixed ocean floor sensors.

IMO, India should be able to contribute towards models and prediction capability.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote:...

A UAV with 2 to 3 tons of payload should be capable of being used as an anti submarine platform. With 2 Sonar Bouy deployment systems on the wings and 1 light weight torpedo on the centre line.
If the logistical footprint offers place for two then it can be a hunter-killer pair too... One rotor UAV doing the hunt (dropping, scanning, relaying part). The processors (ship or shore based) then guiding the second rotor UAV carrying the hard-kill munition (typically a torpedo) as the kill platform.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

^^

Nice as it sounds but how big will these have to be with payload in question?

Where r you going to put it on an ASW asset like a corvette or frigate?

And how will you also fit an organic SAR helo on the same ship?

I presume you have seen the helo hangar of the IN frigates?
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

^ Something for our navy planners to think about now.. while planning future designs

Not be caught in the IN carrier/MiG 29 lifts trap
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Add 2 more force-multipliers to the mix: UUVs and SMART

1) UUVs can have passive or even active sonar to sanitize an area. Wouldn't be surprised to see UUVs armed with torpedoes and mines in the future, just like we have UCAVs

2) SMART will free up the need for rotary copters from carrying their own torpedoes. With the robust sensor-shooter secure datalinks, a sub can be attacked by a destroyer from 100 miles away
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Post by Manish_P »

Prem Kumar wrote:Add 2 more force-multipliers to the mix: UUVs and SMART

1) UUVs can have passive or even active sonar to sanitize an area. Wouldn't be surprised to see UUVs armed with torpedoes and mines in the future, just like we have UCAVs

2) SMART will free up the need for rotary copters from carrying their own torpedoes. With the robust sensor-shooter secure datalinks, a sub can be attacked by a destroyer from 100 miles away
+1 - specifically with reference to point 2

The IN have stated that they have a definite roadmap for UUVs in their doctrine. And they do seem to have a better record on participating with local industry, than their service siblings, so hopefully we will see good developments in due course (budgets permitting of course).

L&T, MDL & DRDO At Forefront Of UUV Solutions For Indian Navy & Exports
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Does the IN have any plan to have a SOSUS type system around the coast ? Atleast to protect the bases and other vital installations.

Can it accurately determine the location and speed ? Then a SOSUS with SMART would make a good ASW shield
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

No word on SOSUS. Either nothing is happening or they are being very tight-lipped.

If we are building one, it will make sense for one near the Malacca straits also. Building and maintaining it will need a decent chunk of CapEx.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Maybe we should have "local" SOSUS like around major bases like Mumbai, Karwar, Kochi, INS Varsha, Kalpakkam, Dr Abdul Kalaam Island, Vizag etc.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

idrw is reporting follow on order from IN for Sagar Defence Engineering's multi-copter. It has 3kg day/night imaging payload and 20km range.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by hgupta »

Manish_P wrote:
Kersi wrote:Just thinking aloud
Is it possible to have any type of UAVs for ASW work ? The UAV would need to have a dunking sonar and at least 2 light weight ASW torpedoes, along with all the other paraphernalia of a UAV. As a dunking sonar is necessary it would be a type of quadcopter.
The USN is doing just that (and it might be on offer to India in the future - QUAD duties)

Navy and General Atomics developing ASW unmanned aircraft to help P-8A Poseidon with submarine hunting
The U.S. Navy and General Atomics in November used sonobuoys dropped from an MQ-9A Block V Reaper unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) to track a simulated submarine target on a U.S. Navy Pacific test range, in what the contractor says is the first time an aerial drone has deployed a self-contained anti-submarine warfare (ASW) system.

The Reaper deployed a mix of 10 sonobuoys -- deployed to measure water conditions and listen for submarine targets -- then received and transmitted the data in real time to a monitoring station at Laguna Flight Operations Facility located at Yuma Proving Ground in Arizona.

The test was part of developing the General Atomics MQ-9B SeaGuardian submarine-hunting UAV. The Reaper managed to acquire and track an expendable ASW training target for three hours using UYS-505 acoustic processing software from General Dynamics Mission Systems in Fairfax, Va.
I really don't get the love for the UAV doing its role of maritime patrolling as a cheaper way of doing things. I mean take a look at the price that India is paying for 30 Reapers: $3 billion !!! and counting. How is that any cheaper than P-8I or a C-295 MPA which offers way more capabilities but at comparable price.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Cost per man hour to operate - just imagine the fuel used by a Repaer vs 737 based platform, Reaper is much more cheaper, is fuel of running it spare parts, no of Manhours to fly/ Maintain, it will probably cost 1% for compared to flying a P-8I around. Reaper will do the Surveillance and P-8I can do the action, prosecution.

Even the USA with its huge budgets find it easier to gather intelligence via Reapers in the black sea rather than keep its AWACS flying all the time.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Plus also the time on station and near-zero manpower requirements. That's why just 2 MQ-Bs were able to clock-up more hours in a short time than the entire P8-I fleet. We would need 2-3x the trained manpower to keep up that kind of schedule on a P8I

Once we have Tapas flying, our next gen HALE platform must be built in a configurable manner, so that it can be kitted out for ASuW operations + can be weaponized. Our desi plane will be an order of magnitude cheaper and if we make enough of them, they can be a true force-multiplier

Even a sea version of Tapas can be made, but its limited by its payload capacity
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

^^^ I hope the MODs will not mind pasting the below here (else request to please move to appropriate thread)

1) Image

2) Image

Source - a June 2021 report submitted to congressional budget office - title - 'Usage Patterns and Costs of Unmanned Aerial Systems'
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

So for surveillance MQ 9 can fly longer, cost per hour 4k vs USD 35K, would it be correct reading those charts
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Please do note that these figures are for the US.

They have had sunk costs over the years of having infrastructure and using UAV platforms.

Our figures might be narrower.

Secondly they are very clear that the platform used depends on the mission profile. They complement each other. One does not make the other redundant.

They are also blunt that the UAVs are not built to the high standards of the manned platforms, especially the rugged civilian (Boeing) based P8s.

The UAVs have suffered more losses due to that and also being single engined platforms are inherently riskier than multiple engined ones.

This downside is however neutralized to a large extent by not having this risk of losing a human crew.

So while it is not exactly an Apple to Apple comparison having UAV platforms is good as it complements manned platforms and it increases the shelf life of the manned platforms too.
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Re: Indian Navy's ASW & AEW Assets: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Agreed - these platforms complement each other and not necessarily a replacement. Its like the CATS Warrior program with manned-unmanned teaming

We need lots of these UAVs in the air, given our humongous coastline. Even for Coast Guard & Coastal Police - they can acquire these platforms because of their lower cost. Data can be fused into the maritime domain awareness HQ that has been setup.

Can be used to contain smuggling, terrorism, detect spills, SAR & a whole range of activities, with plug-n-play sensors. Given the mandate to have transponders for each seagoing vessel to identify it, UAVs can also "check in" on suspicious looking vessels.

In fact, we should aim for a 24x7 surveillance of our entire coastline via a combo of manned aircraft, unmanned aircraft & coastal radars
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