India-US Defence Trade & Technology Initiative: News & Discussion

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Aug 2022 09:27

I have never been able distinguish between Tapas and Rustum 2.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 23 Aug 2022 10:44

TAPAS, also known as Rustom-II from a number of sources.

76 is projected total orders...

At this stage 6 production models being done by HAL for user testing is what I gathered.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 23 Aug 2022 12:19

Latest update.
India’s US Predator acquisition program still waits for govt's green signal

The much-reported Indian acquisition of the United States' Predator drones is still to take off with the entire process at what is called 'pre-acceptance of necessity' (AON) stage, as the Narendra Modi government remains focused on achieving 'Aatmanirbhar Bharat' in the military hardware sector.

According to diplomats based in Washington, D.C. and New Delhi, the decision to move the proposal through the AON and Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) will be done only after the green signal from the government. The initial proposal was that India acquire 30 drones with reconnaissance, surveillance and hunting capabilities; the Army, Navy and Air Force would get 10 each for force application. Originally, the lead player in the acquisitions was the Navy, which already operates two surveillance versions of Predator drones from its base in Tamil Nadu for maritime domain awareness from the Gulf of Aden to the Sunda Straits beyond Malacca.

This week a report by news agency PTI quoted Dr Vivek Lall, CEO of General Atomics, as saying India is in 'advanced stage of negotiations' with the US for acquisition of 30 MQ 9B drones to crank up surveillance capabilities.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Oct 2022 21:34

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... vUjoQtmBEg ---> Report: India and US to discuss joint development of underwater acoustic arrays for detection of submarines with the help of sophisticated sensors.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Feb 2023 08:12

https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/16 ... 83q_tasjKw ---> Some cautionary thoughts on (yet) another India-US technology initiative.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Feb 2023 20:03

What is the United States-India Initiative on Critical and Emerging Technologies (iCET)?
https://carnegieindia.org/2023/02/27/wh ... -pub-89136
27 Feb 2023

This article explicates what iCET is and what it should not be mistaken for. The initiative is not designed to deliver a single deal. Instead, it involves multiple streams for cooperation and collaboration between the United States and India on critical and emerging technologies.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2023 21:45

https://twitter.com/DerekJGrossman/stat ... 82561?s=20 ---> India comments, from me: “If we think because they are the world’s largest democracy and we are the world’s oldest democracy that we should get along perfectly—not going to happen. We have to be realistic.”

What Limits Any U.S. Alliance With India Over China
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... di/673237/
01 March 2023

Though sharing concerns about Beijing’s growing aggression, New Delhi has always been wary of aligning too closely with Washington.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Mar 2023 21:05

https://twitter.com/IN_HQSNC/status/163 ... 66817?s=20 ---> Rear Admiral James Downey PEO Aircraft Carriers* heading US delegation of Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation called on Vice Admiral MA Hampiholi, FOC-in-C, Southern Naval Command. Discussions held on avenues of cooperation on various aspects of Carrier Technology.

*PEO Aircraft Carriers --> https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Who-We-Are/ ... e-Offices/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Mar 2023 19:50

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/IN_HQSNC/status/163 ... 66817?s=20 ---> Rear Admiral James Downey PEO Aircraft Carriers* heading US delegation of Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation called on Vice Admiral MA Hampiholi, FOC-in-C, Southern Naval Command. Discussions held on avenues of cooperation on various aspects of Carrier Technology.

*PEO Aircraft Carriers --> https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Who-We-Are/ ... e-Offices/

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/163 ... 82917?s=20 --->

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 16 Mar 2023 18:41

U. S. - Indo Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation Meets in India

10 March 2023

From Program Executive Office Aircraft Carriers Public Affairs

WASHINGTON NAVY YARD - The sixth meeting of the U.S. – Indo Joint Working Group on Aircraft Carrier Technology Cooperation (JWGACTC) concluded on Mar. 3 in India, marking a successful, bilateral exchange of information and best practices in the areas of ship construction and maintenance.

The five-day meeting, co-chaired by Rear Adm. James P. Downey, program executive officer for aircraft carriers, representing the U.S. delegation; and Rear Adm. Sandeep Mehta, Assistant Controller Carrier Projects for the Indian Navy, deepened a successful legacy of cooperation between the two Pacific nations—sessions launched in August 2015 as part of a U.S. - India Defense Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI).

“India is a vital strategic partner for the United States,” said Downey, “and our program office takes pride in the collaborative spirit we’ve built with our Indian Navy counterparts. Our technology is diverse, while our goal is linked foundationally—to accelerate our respective missions of building and maintaining these extremely capable ships and systems that deliver readiness to our fleets.”

In mid-February, India logged an important milestone when it completed initial flight deck trials on its first indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant.

“Back in 2015, the first Indian Navy delegation visited Norfolk and toured the Gerald R. Ford [CVN 78] when she was still in construction at Newport News Shipbuilding,” Downey recalled. “And this week, our U.S. team stood on board India’s new INS Vikrant, the largest naval ship ever built in India—that was an inspiring moment.” INS Vikrant is expected to begin operations later this year, a step reflective of the government’s vision of Atmanirbhar Bharat, or greater self-reliance.

JWGACTC Tour Highlights

In a robust slate of events conducted from 27 February to 3 March, JWGACTC representatives gathered in New Delhi at the Kota House and visited India’s Directorate of Naval Design, discussing areas of mutual interest in several technology areas, including topside aircraft carrier systems and aircraft / ship integration. Meeting participants delivered updates and discussed opportunities for the two navies to expand cooperation under the initiative. Rear Adm Downey also met with Vice Chief of Naval Staff Vice Adm. SN Ghormade, DTTI Interagency Task Force (DIATF) Co-Chair Lt. Gen. Manjinder Singh, and Vice Adm. Kiran Deshmukh, Controller of Warship Production and Acquisition.

The combined delegation then flew to Kochi, Kerala, on India’s southwest coast, for a tour of Cochin Shipyard Limited, where INS Vikrant was built. Vikrant is the third ship to bear the name, and the first aircraft carrier built entirely by the Indian government and industrial base.

Capt. Brian Metcalf, who leads the Gerald R. Ford-Class New Construction Program Office (PMS 378), appreciated the first-hand look at India’s indigenous ship building capability and Cochin’s modern facilities, tasked with designing and manufacturing the country’s next generation aircraft carrier.

“Looking at our ships, the designs are clearly different: from propulsion to how we launch aircraft—Ford, for instance, using EMALS [Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System] and AAG [Advanced Arresting Gear]; while India employs a STOBAR [short takeoff barrier-assisted recovery] system to launch aircraft off a ski-jump ramp,” said Metcalf.

“In terms of the art and science of shipbuilding and sustainment and the need for building efficiencies into everything we do, whether that’s leveraging resources or building smarter, we share similar challenges and goals. So we can benefit from hearing new operating philosophies and ideas for streamlining business practices. All of that goes a long way toward enhancing interoperability at sea.”

While in Kochi, Downey also visited India’s Southern Naval Command, meeting with Vice Adm. M.A. Hampiholi and visiting the Naval Institute of Aeronautical Technology and the School for Naval Airmen.

Hampiholi afforded Downey the opportunity to meet with trainees at the Advanced Aero Engine Training Centre and to see the school’s Basic and Specialist Vehicle Simulator, mockup helo decks, and Virtual Reality-Aircraft Rescue and Fire Fighting Training Facility, as well as the Indian Navy's P-8I long-range, multi-mission, maritime patrol aircraft simulator.

After several years of interruptions due to COVID-19, JWGACTC participants were pleased to return to this annual in-person meeting format, with the face-to-face interaction fostering closer relationships, particularly among newer team members.

“One-on-one as well as face-to-face team engagement is so important,” said Downey. “These forums and exchanges build trust and teamwork. That’s when you learn across the joint team and when you establish solid foundations and protocols that enhance operations and interoperability for our futures.”

Building on this highly successful meeting, the seventh JWGACTC meeting is scheduled to be held in the United States in 2024.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 May 2023 19:39

Interesting read from Ashley Tellis. Takleef from not buying an American made fighter.

The Amreekis want a win *SO* bad in India. Some how, some way, some manner....get India to purchase an American made fighter.

America’s Bad Bet on India
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/india/am ... india-modi
01 May 2023

But the era of major platform acquisitions from the United States has probably run its course. U.S. companies remain contenders in several outstanding Indian procurement programs, but it seems unlikely that they will ever enjoy a dominant market share in India’s defense imports.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 May 2023 20:43

A twitter user responded to the above article ^^^^ Hilarious read...

https://en.rattibha.com/thread/1652949508416995328

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 01 May 2023 21:03

Rakesh wrote:Interesting read from Ashley Tellis. Takleef from not buying an American made fighter.

The Amreekis want a win *SO* bad in India. Some how, some way, some manner....get India to purchase an American made fighter.

America’s Bad Bet on India
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/india/am ... india-modi
01 May 2023

But the era of major platform acquisitions from the United States has probably run its course. U.S. companies remain contenders in several outstanding Indian procurement programs, but it seems unlikely that they will ever enjoy a dominant market share in India’s defense imports.

I think it is an accurate view by Tellis. The crux of the issue is the US is used to "allies" and not partners. India hopes to be a peer and a power in its own right. The underlying divergence of interests is inherent. Where one can cooperate with the other is to create deterrence value against China escalating and a spirit of partnership in commercial and high technology to deepen relationships. Neither side is interested in defending the interests of the other with their own blood and money. India and the US can be allies minus, meaning the US has the opportunity to displace the role Russia plays in Indian military and strategic affairs and they have a huge leg up to do so and using their economic, social power to good effect. The ball is really in the American court if they have it in them to step up to the ladder and make their strategic bets.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 May 2023 01:06

https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/16 ... 03457?s=20 ---> Ashley Tellis may be right when he predicts: “Should a major conflict between US & China erupt…India…is unlikely to embroil itself in the fight.” On the other hand, if things go kinetic in the Himalayas, are we banking on the 82nd Airborne to drop-in ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 May 2023 06:49

Only twittergnanis are hoping!

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 02 May 2023 20:10

ShauryaT wrote: I think it is an accurate view by Tellis. The crux of the issue is the US is used to "allies" and not partners. India hopes to be a peer and a power in its own right. The underlying divergence of interests is inherent. Where one can cooperate with the other is to create deterrence value against China escalating and a spirit of partnership in commercial and high technology to deepen relationships. Neither side is interested in defending the interests of the other with their own blood and money. India and the US can be allies minus, meaning the US has the opportunity to displace the role Russia plays in Indian military and strategic affairs and they have a huge leg up to do so and using their economic, social power to good effect. The ball is really in the American court if they have it in them to step up to the ladder and make their strategic bets.

US foreign policy is quite transactional and maximalist. Therefore it can never take a long term view. That bad habit will continue. So expect unexpected, expect less.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 02 May 2023 22:07

YashG wrote:
US foreign policy is quite transactional and maximalist. Therefore it can never take a long term view. That bad habit will continue. So expect unexpected, expect less.

I think US does take a long term view, but views everything with the goal of remaining as a superpower for as long as possible and making sure its economic/security might is not eclipsed. Most of US's actions can be attributed towards this point of view and at least when viewed from this angle I can make some sense on why they do things the way they do.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 02 May 2023 22:28

https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/16 ... 03457?s=20 ---> Ashley Tellis may be right when he predicts: “Should a major conflict between US & China erupt…India…is unlikely to embroil itself in the fight.”

Good reason for thinking so given that India has preferred the status quo in border disputes while maintaining its claims to territory. However China promises to provide India every excuse to act. The record shows the US stayed out of WW2 until Dec 7 1941, and if things go south, this war may have similar dynamics.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 May 2023 22:37

All this rona-dhona will stop from the likes of Ashley Tellis, the day India gets an American origin fighter.

It is not about the plane itself, but about the symbolism behind the plane. Nothing solidifies more clearly (that you are in the American camp), than a US built fighter aircraft. And helicopters (AH-64, CH-47), transport aircraft (C-17, C-130) and MR aircraft (P-8) do not cut it. Only an American fighter can seal that deal. The day that happens, then India will no longer be a bad bet.

The fawning over the US in the (now archived) Single Engine fighter thread on BRF was a sight to see. F-16 production in India was going to be the magic pill that solved all of India's woes. The sheer desperation over a 65,000 ton aircraft carrier (another Ashley Tellis' talking point) for the Indian Navy, was to cement the deal for the F-18SH. Post AUKUS, all the CATBOAR proponents on BRF are eerily silent

America's hope has faded in the MRCBF contest and might die even in the MRFA contest. Watch the jubilation if the reverse occurs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 May 2023 01:55

Rakesh, My view is Tellis after twenty years of waiting under the grape vines for the grape to fall has decided grapes are sour onlee.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 May 2023 07:56

ramana wrote:Rakesh, My view is Tellis after twenty years of waiting under the grape vines for the grape to fall has decided grapes are sour onlee.

Ramana-ji, read this excellent rebuttal from Kanwal Sibal. He takes apart Ashley Tellis' article....

Tellis’s narrow self-serving view on India-US ties overlooks the big picture
https://www.indianarrative.com/opinion- ... 39787.html
05 May 2023

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 May 2023 16:11

Rakesh wrote: Ramana-ji, read this excellent rebuttal from Kanwal Sibal. He takes apart Ashley Tellis' article....

Tellis’s narrow self-serving view on India-US ties overlooks the big picture
https://www.indianarrative.com/opinion- ... 39787.html
05 May 2023

Only India and Indians are obliged to look after their self-interest. Not Tellis or any other foreign publication. Here is the question for all: Is it in the best interests of India and supporters of India to promote DTTI or its namesakes.

Please answer, Keeping the following broad scale context in mind.

1. US is unlikely to transfer any IP or share its most advanced technological products.
2. India is unlikely to indigenously produce advanced technology products in timescales desired to compete against China
3. India is unlikely to offer to large US companies the commercial heft needed to co-produce
4. Any dependence on US assets creates a dependence not only on US companies but the US government's foreign policy ambitions
5. The US is unlikely to change its pursuit of a Neo-liberal hegemonist world order

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 06 May 2023 18:38

But of course - Resident Jaichand giving platform to more loyal then the King aka Brown Coolie aka Gungadin.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 06 May 2023 23:36

Why should someone give us "technology" with no strings attached ? There is no free lunch. These agreements I feel are designed to once again lull the Indian govt, research institutions and scientists into hopeful inaction and thus keep us backward and begging for ever.

Shame on those who are touting these agreements as some kind of achievements. Mark my words nothing will come out of these except some more of our top brains moving to greener pastures like mindless cattle.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 07 May 2023 01:27

I am afraid I have to go against the flow here and suggest something which might feel controversial.

I feel the cynicism and animosity towards engagement with US govt is unwarranted. The jingoistic nature of our current political dispersion and thug life quotes of Dr Jaishankar seem to be pushing the public discourse towards an anti-western narrative which is not conducive to our own economic and strategic rise on global stage. Despite the converge of our interests with third world countries on various issues, the customers for our goods and services are primarily in western Europe, USA and Anglo-sphere. USA worked with Britain, its sworn enemy during 19th century to uphold "Monroe doctrine". It is because America bid its time till the opportune moment. They waited till they became largest economy and waited some more without making the British edgy. Our choices are not that hard. We need to engage with the west and most specifically USA to keep the Chinese in check. No other country has the resources or will to assist us. Not the willy french nor the English have any incentive to directly assist us against China. European tech lead is already a niche. Only USA can challenge China across the entire spectrum. India should make use of this willingness on part of USA to build up our technological and industrial capabilities.

Let me try to put forward some ideas on how we can leverage Indo-American partnership towards achieving a concrete goal. The goal is to induct AMCA IOC in the next 10 years.

Indian Air Force Requirements:

Need twin-engine fighter with some stealth characteristics to counter J-20. [Rafale, Eurofighter or F-35]
Need 114 fighters urgently

Indian Navy Requirements:

Need proven twin-engine naval fighter.
Need reliable Engine

DRDO-ADA requirements:

Need to develop twin-engine fighter after Single-Engine development is complete.
Need to develop latest stealth and electronic warfare technologies.

HAL requirement:

Need TOT for F414
Need TOT for next gen aircraft manufacturing technologies

US Govt requirment

Guaranteed orders for F414.
Both MRFA and MRCBF rejection is untenable

Before going to the solution, I want to bring notice to the article link below. It is about the complex supply chain for the Euro-fighter typhoon. The youtube guy who explained this concluded saying the reason the program cost ballooned is because there were 500+ meetings planned which ended up being 750+ with more than 60 participants per meeting. They involved flights and accommodation charges as well adding to the total program budget. These expenses contributed to the cost of the program without resulting in commensurate cost saving or technological competence. India has been doing this since they selected GE F414 in 2010 with more than 3 countries. Imagine the waste of money and manhours.
https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/bits ... sequence=4

It is high time we pull ourselves together and work towards a singular goal with little to no fringe benefits. Here is how GOI should proceed in a step by step manner:

Prerequisites:

1.Order 50 mk1a with more F404 to keep production line running in HAL.

2.Keep 30% offset obligations of GE in an escrow account to be available to meet their costs of joint venture.

Steps to proceed:

1.Select F-18 super hornet for Indian Navy as a bribe for Pres Biden. USA gets confirmed orders for atleast 60 F414 engines including spares.

2.As Engine offset, Make GE form a 50/50 joint venture for F414 EPE development with Godrej.

3.As F-18 offset, Make Boeing become a 25% development partner in AMCA with a guaranteed 50 IOC and 150 FOC orders.

4.Within a 10-year time-frame, attain IOC.

IAF: With a stealth twin-engine fighter on the anvil, IAF does not need MRFA. For the low end, Tejas mk1a is as good as Jaguar. It should be a good enough replacement. Buy 36 more Rafales at bargain rates only if there is spare infrastructure to house them in the existing bases.

Indian Navy: Tough luck, but they have the most experience with american weapons. F-18 should be a workable solution for INS Vikrant till TEDBF comes around. If any company can help make TEDBF work, it is Boeing. Boeing has been in business with US Navy since F-18 hornet. F414 on F-18 is a proven naval Engine which is something Navy will relish after Rd-33 mk fiasco.

DRDO: Had initially commissioned Boeing as consultant way back for Naval Tejas, Boeing would certainly part with some experience in working with F414 for 25 years as well as designing DSI intakes along with certification of components.

HAL: would certainly benefit from Boeing's manufacturing technologies which it missed out when MMRCA folded. HAL might need to forgo F414 TOT. But they should focus on building AMCA using Boeing's expertise on F414 and other technologies of 5th gen planes.

Godrej and GTRE: Build up a large scale production capabilities for jet engines. In 10 years absorb production tech, complete Kaveri Engine program by meeting the stated wet thrust requirements. Goal should be to replace F404 with a desi Engine.

US govt: At long last, Biden admin would have a win with India. The $500 million defense technology fund for India can be put to good use for development of AMCA program.

As a poster said, all these things don't need to be 100%. But getting 80% done is a great achievement if done on time. We are far too behind the Chinese to be having so many chai-biscuit sessions. As much as I respect DRDO, they need to give some room and let professionals handle project management. They share too much commonality with babudom in their processes and way of working. India needed AMCA last decade when J-20 went into serial production.

As for the US, they should not repeat this: https://www.livemint.com/Companies/ZNhs ... oject.html

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 07 May 2023 01:50

^^^ ++Interesting post

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 07 May 2023 02:05

Interesting post BenG and I agree on a lot of points.

I also have to caution against HAL or any other entity’s desire to learn and iterate on any new technology. HAL has been manufacturing western and Russian maal for decades and they have done nothing other than screwdrivergiri. There is no incentive to invest in new technology. Our military is also happy to import new stuff rather than go through long iteration cycles of development.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 07 May 2023 09:19

vimal wrote:Interesting post BenG and I agree on a lot of points.

I also have to caution against HAL or any other entity’s desire to learn and iterate on any new technology. HAL has been manufacturing western and Russian maal for decades and they have done nothing other than screwdrivergiri. There is no incentive to invest in new technology. Our military is also happy to import new stuff rather than go through long iteration cycles of development.

HAL can be supplanted by Godrej in joint venture manufacturing of F414 in India. They are already working on manufacturing Dry Kaveri. It'll help during development of Kaveri afterburner section as well. It might ruffle some IP hawks in US administration. But we can put forth an argument that these guys already have an infrastructure up and running. So it'll be easier for GE to work with their existing team.

I'll update the previous post with this.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 07 May 2023 15:22

BenG wrote: We need to engage with the west and most specifically USA to keep the Chinese in check. No other country has the resources or will to assist us. Not the willy french nor the English have any incentive to directly assist us against China.

I'd like to know what is the basis for this line of thinking. Even assuming "the will to assist us" exists, its fair to pause and ask why? Why should the US assist India ? Whats in it for them? Why should we place our trust easily in a country that armed and supplied Pakistan for decades for its own ends, knowing fully that its support to Pak is causing enormous harm to India ?

I also do not buy that India and China are destined to be enemies and without US help India cannot face China. My take is India and China may never be friends, but an equilibrium will be established (to some extent it already is) that makes any significant conflict counter productive to both countries. And the shared asian mindset we have doesn't favour the "obsessive animosity until the total destruction of the other" mindset the west including the US has displayed repeatedly just in the past century.

I'm not advocating distancing from the west and cutting off ties of cooperation. I'm saying India needs to be clear eyed to realise that we are on the cusp of achieving serious technological breakthroughs in strategic domains that have eluded us for decades. Now is NOT the time to get tempted to take "tech transfer shortcuts" to cross the last few kms to the goal lines. And definitely NOT if such agreements have the effect of India putting its own tech journey on the back burner since stuff we need is being offered off the shelf with visible and invisible strings attached.

Our indigenous tech mostly run by govt organisations like DRDO and others has delivered mixed results of course but some successes as well, despite lackadaisical management of our tech journey roadmap. Like in every other sector today, that is changing, and getting catalysed by increased private sector participation. The time is to redouble the efforts and galvanise our adacemicia, research institutes, pubic & pvt sector organisations to achieve those unobtainiums in the next decade and hopefully start leading in some of them. This should be a national mission with topmost priority, and if we have to hold off China and Pak (if at all) in the mean time by stalling manoeuvres that avoid major conflicts, we should.

Biding our time doesn't mean closing eyes and twiddling thumbs. It means behind the calm and cheerful façade, midnight oil is burning, furnaces are roaring, steel being forged, arrow heads being sharapened ityadi.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 07 May 2023 15:36

BTW, while Dr JS' giga chad statement snippets are SM staple fun, I suggest we listen to his entire statements very carefully. For example his joint presser with Blinken on this last visit to the US. And his statements wrt China. He displays no fawning or needless aggression. Zero indication that we expect to face China with western support. But for this posture to last and strengthen, the rest of India must also stand up and deliver. Especially on the technological front.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 07 May 2023 15:59

Cyrano wrote:'d like to know what is the basis for this line of thinking. Even assuming "the will to assist us" exists, its fair to pause and ask why? Why should the US assist India ? Whats in it for them?

US did dispatch its aircraft carrier when Nehru asked for help during Indo-china war of 1962.

Us govt did legislate a $ 500 million fund for joint projects with India.

USA's supply of weapons to Pakistan is a problem, but it was in the context of soviet-afghan war as help againt Soviet intrusion into pak airspace. Then USA did sanction Pakistan for their nuclear programme. Hasn't china armed Pakistan with the explicit aim of counting India? Chinese made weapons have been found with North East militant groups. Our so called strategic ally Russia herself has been selling helicopter gun ships and other platforms. US relationship with Pakistan is transactional and maybe with India too. But currently the transactions seem to be favorable for both of us.

Looking for a equilibrium with china is a naiveite which Russia has been practicing to its own detriment. India need not go down that hole. Our membership of SCO, Russia-China-India groupings themselves are awkward enough. Indian hegemony over Indian ocean region is what our goal should be and not equilibrium or coexistence with china. For coexistence, the larger power that is china which should be seeking it. India should be a militant opponent till then.

What we must seek is to equal china as the world's factory. For that good relations with the west is paramount. We provide them with cost competitive goods and services. Then import cutting edge tech products to overtake Chinese capabilities in electronics, automotive industry and space research.

Just buying fuel from Russia has made a surplus of Rupee available on Forex market. Thank god that we did not free float our currency. Our choices currently are to pay in Rembini or UAE Dirham. Russia will not be selling discounted oil or service our weapons if we can't pay in a currency of its choosing. We must take immediate actions to rectify these issues before they blowup in our face.

DRDO has never had the habit of making realistic assumptions and projections. They talk to journalists like a paper plane is enough for IAF to meet challenge posed by china and Pakistan. They assure them like their words will automatically manifest into reality. They are sarkari babus in lab coats. There in no accountability for failure and little introspection for improvement. They take pride in re-inventing the wheel and having a bloated balance sheet. I'm 100% sure that mk2 will not enter production before 2030 let alone AMCA. The gun testing of mk1a is still not complete. I'm certain mk1a delivery will not begin before Mar 2024 as scheduled. Its best we take help from Boeing which has experience working with F414 and stealth fighter designs.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 May 2023 16:24

There are a few assumptions in the above post that are not valid IMO.

1) The USA of pre JFK assassination and USA of today are different entities. And not truly comparable.

2) This is the era of onshoring. The western world is no longer in any economic position to keep manufacturing out of western world. India needs industrial capacity for itself. There is a limit to how much India will be allowed to supplant PRC in terms of being an industrial powerhouse.

3) delays, if, any in the AMCA and MK2 will have to met by additional production of the mk1a. However, lacking it might be in view of the IAF.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 07 May 2023 16:34

BenG wrote:US did dispatch its aircraft carrier when Nehru asked for help during Indo-china war of 1962.

The same US dispatched a CBG into Bay of Bengal during the '71 war, until Russian subs showed up and they had to back off.

BenG wrote:US govt did legislate a $ 500 million fund for joint projects with India.

What are the projects that have been launched with that fund? What are expected outcomes ? Who will own the IP? I'm not aware, so please do share.

BenG wrote:Looking for a equilibrium with china is a naiveite which Russia has been practicing to its own detriment.

The China equilibrium matter we can discuss in the Geopolitics thread.

BenG wrote:What we must seek is to equal china as the world's factory. For that good relations with the west is paramount. We provide them with cost competitive goods and services.

On becoming the world's factory, I'll simply say that that train has left the station. Moreover, that model is neither needed nor desirable for India, which is by itself a large consumption market with favourable demographic projections. The appropriate model for India is to be tightly integrated inside and loosely coupled outside. Simply because any adverse external event will put 1.4 billion people at risk, several 100s of millions will remain highly vulnerable to adverse global trends. More we can discuss in the Geopolitics thread.

BenG wrote:Then import cutting edge tech products to overtake Chinese capabilities in electronics, automotive industry and space research.

Russia payments issue is an important one, please check the Russia thread in Strat forum where this is being discussed. I'm of the view that this will be temporary and a solution can be worked out in the near future. It wont be left unsolved given its strategic importance. Chinese economy, monetary policy are an even bigger scam than that of US. Again there is a thread for that.

On DRDO etc you are sticking to age old criticisms and saying therefore we must become America dependent. Not convincing at all. Seems like you are mixing up India's immediate mil equipment needs and strategic tech development imperatives and pushing the idea that meeting the former by buying from America will have a great positive impact on the latter. That is the core of our disagreement.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 07 May 2023 16:48

It will be best to arrest the discussion in this thread to iCET, which is the successor to DTTI. DTTI is dead.

FACT SHEET: United States and India Elevate Strategic Partnership with the initiative on Critical and Emerging Technology (iCET)

Strengthening our Innovation Ecosystems

Signing a new Implementation Arrangement for a Research Agency Partnership between the National Science Foundation and Indian science agencies to expand international collaboration in a range of areas — including artificial intelligence, quantum technologies, and advanced wireless — to build a robust innovation ecosystem between our countries.
Establishing a joint Indo-U.S. Quantum Coordination Mechanism with participation from industry, academia, and government to facilitate research and industry collaboration.
Drawing from global efforts to develop common standards and benchmarks for trustworthy AI through coordinating on the development of consensus, multi-stakeholder standards, ensuring that these standards and benchmarks are aligned with democratic values.
Promoting collaboration on High Performance Computing (HPC), including by working with Congress to lower barriers to U.S. exports to India of HPC technology and source code.
Defense Innovation and Technology Cooperation

Developing a new bilateral Defense Industrial Cooperation Roadmap to accelerate technological cooperation between both countries for the joint development and production, with an initial focus on exploring projects related to jet engines, munition related technologies, and other systems.
Noting the United States has received an application from General Electric to jointly produce jet engines that could power jet aircraft operated and produced indigenously by India. The United States commits to an expeditious review of this application.
Enhancing long-term research and development cooperation, with a focus on identifying maritime security and intelligence surveillance reconnaissance (ISR) operational use cases.
Launching a new “Innovation Bridge” that will connect U.S. and Indian defense startups.
Resilient Semiconductor Supply Chains

Enhancing bilateral collaboration on resilient semiconductor supply chains; supporting the development of a semiconductor design, manufacturing, and fabrication ecosystem in India; and leveraging complementary strengths, both countries intend to promote the development of a skilled workforce that will support global semiconductor supply chains and encourage the development of joint ventures and technology partnerships on mature technology nodes and packaging in India.
Welcoming a task force organized by the U.S. Semiconductor Industry Association (SIA) in partnership with the India Electronics Semiconductor Association (IESA) with participation from the Government of India Semiconductor Mission to develop a “readiness assessment” to identify near-term industry opportunities and facilitate longer-term strategic development of complementary semiconductor ecosystems.
This task force will make recommendations to the Department of Commerce and the India Semiconductor Mission on opportunities and challenges to overcome in order to further strengthen India’s role within the global semiconductor value chain, and will also provide input to the U.S.-India Commercial Dialogue. The task force will also identify and facilitate workforce development, R&D including with respect to advanced packaging, and exchange opportunities to benefit both countries.
Space

Strengthening cooperation on human spaceflight, including establishing exchanges that will include advanced training for an Indian Space Research Organization (ISRO)/Department of Space astronaut at NASA Johnson Space Center.
Identifying innovative approaches for the commercial sectors of the two countries to collaborate, especially with respect to activities related to NASA’s Commercial Lunar Payload Services (CLPS) project. Within the next year, NASA, with ISRO, will convene U.S. CLPS companies and Indian aerospace companies to advance this initiative.
Initiating new STEM talent exchanges by expanding the Professional Engineer and Scientist Exchange Program (PESEP) to include space science, Earth science, and human spaceflight and extending a standing invitation to ISRO to participate in NASA’s biannual International Program Management Course
Strengthening the bilateral commercial space partnership, including through a new U.S. Department of Commerce and Indian Department of Space-led initiative under the U.S.-India Civil Space Joint Working Group. This initiative will foster U.S.-India commercial space engagement and enable growth and partnerships between U.S. and Indian commercial space sectors.
Welcoming the visit this week by the ISRO Chairman to the United States, as well as a visit to India by the NASA Administrator later in 2023.
Expanding the agenda of the U.S.-India Civil Space Joint Working Group to include planetary defense.
Science, Technology, Engineering and Math Talent:

Noting a new joint task force of the Association of American Universities and leading Indian educational institutions, including Indian Institutes of Technology, which will make recommendations for research and university partnerships.
Next Generation Telecommunications:

Launching a public-private dialogue on telecommunications and regulations.
Advancing cooperation on research and development in 5G and 6G, facilitating deployment and adoption of Open RAN in India, and fostering global economies of scale within the sector.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 07 May 2023 17:07

We are now at a stage beyond the foundational agreements. This is next.
INDIA-US TO SHARE AIR INFORMATION

A very high ranking Pentagon official, the US Air Secretary Frank Kendall, who kept a close watch on China's military modernisation through technical intelligence for over a decade has proposed a landmark Air Information Sharing Agreement with India, which envisages exchanging information on what the two air forces do together. This will also allow transfer or sale of highly sensitive US defence equipment to India.

The contours of this proposed agreement have not yet been divulged, but it is surmised that the agreement will encompass a wide range of air information like weather data, flight plans and other relevant information that could assist in air traffic management and situational awareness of the sky. This agreement could help India to better monitor its airspace and improve its air traffic management system. Most significantly this could also help India to improve its military capabilities by obtaining better situational awareness and intelligence capabilities.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 May 2023 22:24

BenG wrote:1.Select F-18 super hornet for Indian Navy as a bribe for Pres Biden. USA gets confirmed orders for atleast 60 F414 engines including spares.

BenG wrote:Indian Navy: Tough luck, but they have the most experience with american weapons. F-18 should be a workable solution for INS Vikrant till TEDBF comes around. If any company can help make TEDBF work, it is Boeing. Boeing has been in business with US Navy since F-18 hornet. F414 on F-18 is a proven naval Engine which is something Navy will relish after Rd-33 mk fiasco.

That ship has likely sailed, metaphorically speaking. Admiral Hari Kumar has stated that both aircraft have met the MRCBF requirements. However the Navy's clear preference is reportedly the Rafale M. That would make sense.

Despite all the marketing hype from Boeing, it appears that the F-18SH has lost the MRCBF contest. The biggest drawback to the Rhino, is the Vikrant itself. From hangar size to arrestor hook to lift (despite the folding wings), the SH has reportedly lost out to the Rafale M.

The reason for the push from the likes of Ashley Tellis (and even on this forum) for a 65K ton aircraft carrier, is it would put the Rhino in pole position to win the MRCBF contest. The Rhino is best utilized on a large CATOBAR vessel and a STOBAR vessel puts the Rhino in a disadvantage. Doable, but not at all ideal. The Rafale M, aboard a STOBAR vessel, is the better bet.

Even IAC-2 is reportedly going to be a follow-on Vikrant Class STOBAR design. The navy has now shifted to IAC-3 for their bells-and-whistles super carrier (EMALS, possibly nuclear powered, increased tonnage < 65K tons, etc). By the time IAC-3 gets commissioned in the early 2040s, TEDBF will already be in service. The F-18SH will not even be in production at that time and is ending in 2024/2025.

BenG wrote:IAF: With a stealth twin-engine fighter on the anvil, IAF does not need MRFA. For the low end, Tejas mk1a is as good as Jaguar. It should be a good enough replacement. Buy 36 more Rafales at bargain rates only if there is spare infrastructure to house them in the existing bases.

There is enough base infrastructure - for the Rafale - to house two squadrons *EACH* at Ambala and Hasimara.

A follow on Rafale order will be cheaper, as the ISE upgrades have already been paid for in contract for the first 36 Rafales.

BenG wrote:Indian Navy: Tough luck, but they have the most experience with american weapons. F-18 should be a workable solution for INS Vikrant till TEDBF comes around. If any company can help make TEDBF work, it is Boeing. Boeing has been in business with US Navy since F-18 hornet. F414 on F-18 is a proven naval Engine which is something Navy will relish after Rd-33 mk fiasco.

The F-18SH is likely not happening for the reasons explained above. While no official statement has come out yet, it does appear that the Rafale M is taking home the red rose from the Indian Navy.

Dassault can do the same thing that Boeing can do, but that assistance is really not needed. Landing an aircraft aboard a vessel is no easy task and requires significant engineering know-how and knowledge. That has been amply proven with the Naval LCA Mk1 landing aboard INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant. The issue lies not in technical ability, but in willingness. By the time TEDBF is ready to do her first landing and take off from an aircraft carrier, ADA will have ample real world data from the Naval LCA Mk1. There is already talk of the Navy wanting to induct a small fleet of Naval LCA Mk1s, likely in the training role.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 08 May 2023 00:18

There is already talk of the Navy wanting to induct a small fleet of Naval LCA Mk1s, likely in the training role.

Cyrano khush hua !

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 08 May 2023 08:25

Well, US can donate a carrier or two. That would solve the problem. We can do a Gorsky+Mig-29 redux with US this time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 May 2023 20:13

ShauryaT wrote:It will be best to arrest the discussion in this thread to iCET, which is the successor to DTTI. DTTI is dead.

Good idea. Lets see what the June visit to Washington D.C. brings out. If something substantial, I will rename this thread.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 May 2023 20:19

Rakesh wrote:Interesting read from Ashley Tellis....

America’s Bad Bet on India
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/india/am ... india-modi
01 May 2023

https://twitter.com/arzandc/status/1663 ... 57953?s=20 ---> In my latest, I argue the US bet on India is fundamentally sound. Tellis was right: India won't fight alongside US in a Taiwan war. But there are other ways a US-India strategic partnership can contribute meaningfully to a free & open Indo-Pacific. (1/4)

https://twitter.com/arzandc/status/1663 ... 71334?s=20 ---> Three ways I highlight in this piece: combined military posture in eastern IOR; niche mil capabilities for denial against PLA; and diplomatic coordination, especially in Global South. These affordable steps can add serious deterrent value. (2/4)

https://twitter.com/arzandc/status/1663 ... 31941?s=20 ---> To be clear, this not a sanguine or celebratory take. India’s constraints are tight, & limits to the US-India partnership are real. I dont tackle values, trade, tech, etc. That’s why the recommendations are affordable & incremental, not transformational. (3/4)

https://twitter.com/arzandc/status/1663 ... 51648?s=20 ---> Ashley Tellis' important piece, which prompted me to collect my own thoughts, is here. Thanks to the great team at @ForeignAffairs. (4/4)

America’s Best Bet in the Indo-Pacific
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-s ... do-pacific
29 May 2023

How Washington and New Delhi Can Balance a Rising China.