Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
UlanBatori
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14045
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2020 23:38

What happened to the canard of the Naval LCA? The one shown looks standard same as IAF LCA? BTW, LCA with 3 models IS India's "JSF". A V/STOL version can be developed later. They should put 100 cellphones on it and it becomes an F-35.

Jay
BRFite
Posts: 294
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 18:24
Location: Gods Country
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Jay » 06 Mar 2020 00:00

The article from Mao ji gives me Goosebumps!

astal
BRFite
Posts: 165
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 03:06
Location: virtual back bench

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby astal » 06 Mar 2020 08:48

How about an annual $ 5000.00 or thereabouts BRF prize for outstanding contribution to Indian Defense Indigenization.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:14

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 70144?s=20 ---> A MUST read from Vayu Aerospace from horse’s mouth (Commodore Maolankar - Chief TP for NLCA project). Articles don’t come better than this, it outlines enormity of the task these patriots have undertaken and proved why these indigenous efforts are irreplaceable.

https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/342/index.aspx

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:30

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 86050?s=20 ----> Shortly, will send 8 tweets on the Naval LCA and an in-depth article of what it took for the landings. It's a fascinating read. All enthusiasts MUST read it before commenting. Will tag Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (MAO), Group Director FTO & Chief Test Pilot here. Our cover story.

https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/342/index.aspx

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:32

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 27008?s=20 ---> 1/8: Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (MAO), Group Director (FTO) & Chief Test Pilot, National Flight Test Centre (NFTC) and Captain Shivnath Dahiya (DAX), the naval test pilot, presently with the NFTC, ADA at Bangalore.

Image

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:36

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 42496?s=20 ---> 2/8: Both MAO and DAX have been strenuously involved with the LCA-N and its flight testing including arrested landings and take offs from the INS Vikramaditya. Pix: Deb Rana

Image

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:40

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 73600?s=20 ---> 3/8: Probably the most important lesson learnt during this test phase was that a conservative design does not necessarily generate addit safety. In the case of the nose oleo, the design case was for a virtually impossible 3 point landing at 1400 fpm.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 73600?s=20 ---> 4/8: Preparations by the crew have been achieved by a combination of two factors: deep immersion into the aircraft’s design processes and infusion of knowledge from the ‘best in the business’ at the Carrier Suitability Division of the US Navy.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:41

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 36960?s=20 ----> 5/8: As would be expected, there is a lot of justifiable pride associated with these achievements, most of which are uniquely ‘Indian’ and will naturally far outlive employment of the current test aircraft.

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:42

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 39712?s=20 ---> 6/8: In typical fighter pilot fashion, such elan has found expression in creation of two new patches: one for all the crew associated with the SBTF and the other more exclusive for those qualified to conduct ‘Carrier Suitability’ testing.

Image

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:46

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 35042?s=20 ---> 7/8: The wide spectrum of benefits already flowing from the LCA (Navy) programme are clearly out of proportion with its diminutive physical dimensions.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 91298?s=20 ---> 8/8: Benefits certain to accrue in the future will be invaluable in laying the foundation for India’s carrier-borne aviation of the future.

Image

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:49


Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 08 Mar 2020 22:52

Very rarely do wallpaper sized images come. This is one of those times. If you are an aviation buff or just love desi maal, you need to save these images for your personal collection.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5346
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Kartik » 09 Mar 2020 00:50

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1235525765136936960?s=20 ----> 5/8: As would be expected, there is a lot of justifiable pride associated with these achievements, most of which are uniquely ‘Indian’ and will naturally far outlive employment of the current test aircraft.

Beautiful shot. Really shows off the best looking variants of the LCA..and clearly illustrates how much better the Navy's color scheme looks as compared to the IAF's dated color scheme.
Last edited by Kartik on 09 Mar 2020 01:11, edited 1 time in total.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5346
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Kartik » 09 Mar 2020 01:10

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1235528742795014144?s=20 ----> LCA-Navy's cockpit!

Superb pic! can see so many details of the LCA Navy cockpit in this pic. See the Hook Off and Down switch and the Fuel Dump switches. Both are unique to LCA Navy. Can also see 2143 kg of internal fuel, also indicated by the green color of the wing, fuselage and aft fuselage fuel tanks on the left MFD. Can also see a 'Clean AC' button covered by a glass cover, which when pressed most likely jettisons all external stores.

Jayram
BRFite
Posts: 338
Joined: 14 Jan 2003 12:31

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Jayram » 09 Mar 2020 02:04

Rakesh email sent to admins.

ranjan.rao
BRFite
Posts: 520
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 01:21

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby ranjan.rao » 09 Mar 2020 04:25

may be a very basic question to ask..but does it have a start button ..or does it have some key mechansim..

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1542
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Mar 2020 05:31

ranjan.rao wrote:may be a very basic question to ask..but does it have a start button ..or does it have some key mechansim..

No, it has a crank handle at the back near the engine.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Khalsa » 09 Mar 2020 13:58

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1235525765136936960?s=20 ----> 5/8: As would be expected, there is a lot of justifiable pride associated with these achievements, most of which are uniquely ‘Indian’ and will naturally far outlive employment of the current test aircraft.

Why is the a/c on the right hand side looking bigger to me ?
The spine behind the canopy looks bigger, the shoulder looks bigger. Perhaps even the wing area.
Obviously an optical illusion or I am just thinking its bigger because its a 2 seater

Jaeger
BRFite
Posts: 328
Joined: 23 Jun 2004 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Jaeger » 09 Mar 2020 14:20

Khalsa wrote:Why is the a/c on the right hand side looking bigger to me ?
The spine behind the canopy looks bigger, the shoulder looks bigger. Perhaps even the wing area.
Obviously an optical illusion or I am just thinking its bigger because its a 2 seater

It's lifted on jacks. See the nose / outer wing area.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1694
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Khalsa » 09 Mar 2020 15:24

Jaeger wrote:
Khalsa wrote:Why is the a/c on the right hand side looking bigger to me ?
The spine behind the canopy looks bigger, the shoulder looks bigger. Perhaps even the wing area.
Obviously an optical illusion or I am just thinking its bigger because its a 2 seater

It's lifted on jacks. See the nose / outer wing area.


My good Lord it is. Thank you kind Sir.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9779
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Rakesh » 09 Mar 2020 18:39

Jayram wrote:Rakesh email sent to admins.

I received your email. I will respond soon. Sorry for the delay.

NachiketM
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 15
Joined: 28 Dec 2018 03:52

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby NachiketM » 22 Mar 2020 03:29

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1235528742795014144?s=20 ----> LCA-Navy's cockpit!
Image


Excellent Snap ... 8)
Couldn't help but imagine how wonderful the view would be with a bubble canopy like an F-16 or F-22 ... :D 8)
I hope they are doing it for the AMCA.

NachiketM
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 15
Joined: 28 Dec 2018 03:52

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby NachiketM » 22 Mar 2020 03:35

Also I noticed a peculiar pipe-like fitting running through the borders of the canopy with many holes in it. I have never seen anything like it on any other a/c.
Does anybody know what it is?
My guess is it's just there for added strengthening but I could be wrong. It surely isn't for air-conditioning ...

Reddy
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 68
Joined: 30 Apr 2008 15:06

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Reddy » 22 Mar 2020 06:54

NachiketM wrote:Also I noticed a peculiar pipe-like fitting running through the borders of the canopy with many holes in it. I have never seen anything like it on any other a/c.
Does anybody know what it is?
My guess is it's just there for added strengthening but I could be wrong. It surely isn't for air-conditioning ...


Maybe defogging? Warm air to manage fog as it is operating in rapidly changing humidity condition?

NachiketM
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 15
Joined: 28 Dec 2018 03:52

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby NachiketM » 22 Mar 2020 19:46

Reddy wrote:
NachiketM wrote:Also I noticed a peculiar pipe-like fitting running through the borders of the canopy with many holes in it. I have never seen anything like it on any other a/c.
Does anybody know what it is?
My guess is it's just there for added strengthening but I could be wrong. It surely isn't for air-conditioning ...


Maybe defogging? Warm air to manage fog as it is operating in rapidly changing humidity condition?


No. The cabin is pressurised and that prevents fogging up.
It's a strange contraption and none of the fighters I have seen have it.

Avtar Singh
BRFite
Posts: 161
Joined: 22 Jan 2017 02:07

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Avtar Singh » 23 Mar 2020 03:13

it will be for defogging/demisting,
pressurisation alone will not stop this happening when humidity changes dramatically..
it is part of the air conditioning system... scroll to page 9 of this falcon 2000 manual

http://www.smartcockpit.com/docs/DASSAU ... ection.pdf

misting may/will happen when descending from higher levels onto the surface
of the very warm Indian ocean


the aircraft on the right, as we see them, has much greater nose wheel oleo extension.
hence it is sitting higher.......
perhaps they are testing with different pressures in the oleos

same models of aircraft type will not be different in dimensions

all jet engines are started with a button or switch

Sumair
BRFite
Posts: 117
Joined: 02 Jun 2001 11:31

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Sumair » 23 Mar 2020 05:52

could it be a fire suppressant system?!

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8227
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Indranil » 23 Mar 2020 11:02

No, it is the vents for the ECS systems. It keeps the canopy at the same temperature as the cockpit. IT is there even in the Tejas. It is painted black there and hence gets camouflaged into the canopy frame.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54822
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby ramana » 24 Mar 2020 02:54

Indranil,
How common is the structure of Naval LC to the Tejas?
I know the undercarriage, the front canards, and the engine.
Can it be made on the Tejas lines during gap between FOC and Mk1A at HAL?

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8227
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Indranil » 24 Mar 2020 21:04

Ramana sir,

Think of LCA has 3 fuselage parts: front, middle and rear; the wing and the fin. The front fuselage section, wing and fins are identical. A lot of the LRUs are identical. So, I can't imagine why NLCAs cannot be buid from the same assembly line.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54822
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby ramana » 25 Mar 2020 02:28

Thanks. For the info.
You don't know what you just conveyed.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3544
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby fanne » 25 Mar 2020 08:30

this could be the best use of downtime at HAL - build NLCA - risk mitigation vis a vis Mig 29 (I believe at least in AA role, NLCA has adequate range and time on station with enough aa missile). A mixture, where NLCA provides AA coverage (and if A to S or A to G if feasible) while M29 goes out for A to S and A2G roles).
Also we advance our TEDBF with a practical NLCA, many tech can keep on maturing on NLCA. A 16/32 plane run for NLCA may not be bad. When TEDBF comes over they get handed to IAF (and if needed, some parts rebuilt - e.g. landing gear).

basant
BRFite
Posts: 333
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby basant » 25 Mar 2020 23:08

fanne wrote:this could be the best use of downtime at HAL - build NLCA - risk mitigation vis a vis Mig 29 (I believe at least in AA role, NLCA has adequate range and time on station with enough aa missile). A mixture, where NLCA provides AA coverage (and if A to S or A to G if feasible) while M29 goes out for A to S and A2G roles).
Also we advance our TEDBF with a practical NLCA, many tech can keep on maturing on NLCA. A 16/32 plane run for NLCA may not be bad. When TEDBF comes over they get handed to IAF (and if needed, some parts rebuilt - e.g. landing gear).

I am just wondering what if the downtime is used to make LCA Navy trainer? As needed, it can be used as Navy trainer, air force trainer and in combat for IN and IAF. It may not excel in the last 2 roles and not perhaps required for the first but practically it can be used for any role in dire straits.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21050
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Philip » 26 Mar 2020 02:58

An article on how the CV is affecting the IA's ability to respond to both fronts,because of budget blues, basic small arms,ammo,etc. unavailable, will have a cascading effect and the IN,whose slice of cake has gotten even smaller will have nothing in the pocket for the NLCA. It is more likely to buy more limited numbers of 29Ks,to fill any gaps,being cheaper and a more cost-effective solution.Just a sqd. of NLCAs, will find it v.difficult to set up a future domestic logistic supply chain. What money we have ,let's for now plug the ASW helo gap.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8227
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2020 04:12

I don't want to go to NLCA production. There are no orders and IN is not keen on it. It is on TEDBF, and work is going fast on that. I can tell you a few number of internal reviews with IN has been completed. IN considering the NLCA Mk1 as LIFT. It is mighty pleased with NLCA Mk1 tests. The test results are better than anticipated, kind of anticlimactic in a way. The team demonstrated 3 hot refuels resulting in 4 traps and 3 takeoffs for 3 hours of continuous flying on a single aircraft. Nobody expected that from a prototype on its second day ever onboard ANY ship. The design team also learned a lot about what works best onboard a floating hangar and flight deck.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8227
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2020 04:18

Gupta sahab, it is easy to blame HAL and say if only it was for another company (preferably private) things would be rosier.

I guarantee you, paisa phenko tamasha dekho. Double the orders, and one more line will come up magically. On the contrary, if you don't pay the dues to a company, to the the point that it has to take loans then NO company will invest in capital intensive automatic drilling machines which are required for large scale production!

It is quite simple only, the use and abuse is bidirectional. One has to be deliberately biased to find malice on one side only.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8227
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2020 04:52

agupta wrote:Hmm... there are incompetent Private companies too - they get run out quickly, so don't see my note as a push to hand this over to a private agency. And my grey hair have been witness to many accounts of Services playing fast-n-loose as well. That's not the issue.

My point is simply this: Taking on debt to finance operations is a VERY COMMON thing to do in big industrials. Is HAL really doing a rona-dhona about it or is this angst an internet forum construct ? If its the former, then geez - that's disappointingly far from even a best-of-India class professionally run industrial management

Sirjee, how many C295Ws has Tata built based on confirmed orders? If they have not built one, then which quality of industrial management are they missing?
agupta wrote:I am not arguing for an extra line or production expectations. I think the current evolution of Mk1A--> MWF / NLCA TD --> TEDBF is a wise and mature thing to do. I don't believe even if HAL got more cash or orders for Mk1, its efficient enough to manage it - it WILL screw over and mess up MWF and TEDBF EIS timelines... and THAT transition for playing defense to offense with the foundation the Tejas program has given us is what I would love to see ASAP.

That's your opinion. I am not going to try to change it. But MWF, NLCA, TEDBF etc. are currently not HAL run projects.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8100
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby nachiket » 26 Mar 2020 05:12

If MoD hadn't paid dues to the tune of thousands of crores to a private company (foreign or domestic) there would be arbitration proceedings going on right now and MoD would end up paying through their (taxpayer's) noses eventually. They know that very well. So they don't default on payments to private (especially foreign) vendors. With HAL, it looks like there is a "sab kuch chalta hai" attitude since it is a government agency and is not going to sue the MoD.

And yes if they had defaulted on payments to a private vendor that vendor would not be drilling a single hole (in a manual or automated manner) to fulfill more orders.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8227
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Postby Indranil » 26 Mar 2020 05:55

agupta wrote:You've raised an interesting possibility of the NLCA --> LiFT role ! Interesting. I do recall you advocating for a clean sheet AJT/HAwk-scale LIFT design as well, right ? Are you thinking we may end up having 2 different LIFT candidates - separate one for IAF and IN ?

1. IN doesn't have a trainer that can land on deck. NLCA Mk1 trainer will be that LIFT. ADA trying to sell that concept to IN. IN sees the merit. Short on money.
2. HAL has put forward LCA AF trainer -- as LIFT for IAF and other AFs. There is virtue in it. But, I don't see the differentiator from the Boeing/Saab T-7, Lockheed Martin/KAI T-50, the Yak/Hongdu L-15 and the Chengu/PAC J-17B. If I were a foreign buyer, I would go the T-7 which has ~500 orders on day 1, and is designed from the ground up as a standalone LIFT. It's maintenance is going to be the least by virtue of the design choices it has made.
3. Therefore I have khayali pulao design in my mind of next generation AJT/LIFT which is based on single-AB engine. A modern day Mig21/F-5E. It will be cheaper to acquire and maintain than all the above (except the T-7). Performance wise it will lie in between a Hawk and an LCA Mk1. It can chose a slightly more performant AJT because it is on a three airplane syllabus and the IJT is a pretty decent jet trainer.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: kapio, Rakesh and 39 guests