Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2023 02:10

These are very significant messages in those three pictures to the many players.
First India has a credible plane that can fill the gap till TEDBF shows up.
France cant take Rafale M as TINA.
And the US can supply more GE engines.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Apr 2023 19:08

https://twitter.com/Duorope/status/1646 ... 59648?s=20 ---> Eye Candy. Naval LCA approaching for landing on INS Vikrant.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 13 Apr 2023 14:39

Nice pic, the bird looks very high so close to the AC. Very high descent rate would be needed. Would be great if there were a video from this angle.

basant · Post by **basant** » 13 Apr 2023 14:50

^^^
The jet is too high. Most likely it is a go-around.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 18 Apr 2023 10:38

https://www.livefistdefence.com/indian- ... lca-order/

Indian Navy Considering Small N-LCA Order?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Apr 2023 10:49

Bharadwaj wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/indian- ... lca-order/

Indian Navy Considering Small N-LCA Order?

Wonderful news if it comes now,

1) This order can help setup the production ecosystem for TEDBF
2) They can help in training Naval pilots on carriers before the MIG 29K and Rafale/ F-18
3) During war time they can clearly do 2 roles, a) Be land based Aircraft- where they can use payload or b) Given the fuel efficient F-404 engine with much better MTBF, a small group of 4 Aircraft can do the CAP missions(A to A payload will be much lighter)- which can include taking out incoming missiles using thier CCM and keep enemy aircraft at bay, while the maintenance heavy aircraft can do the strike missions.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 18 Apr 2023 11:06

Bharadwaj wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/indian- ... lca-order/
Indian Navy Considering Small N-LCA Order?

We on BRF have been crying for this for donkeys years. Finally some common sense is dawning.

williams · Post by **williams** » 18 Apr 2023 11:14

Aditya_V wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/indian- ... lca-order/

Indian Navy Considering Small N-LCA Order?

Wonderful news if it comes now,

1) This order can help setup the production ecosystem for TEDBF
2) They can help in training Naval pilots on carriers before the MIG 29K and Rafale/ F-18
3) During war time they can clearly do 2 roles, a) Be land based Aircraft- where they can use payload or b) Given the fuel efficient F-404 engine with much better MTBF, a small group of 4 Aircraft can do the CAP missions(A to A payload will be much lighter)- which can include taking out incoming missiles using thier CCM and keep enemy aircraft at bay, while the maintenance heavy aircraft can do the strike missions.

That is great news. But remember 10-12 aircraft with all the bells and whistles will be half a billion dollars (assuming N-LCA is 40-50 million dollar a piece). That would mean bye bye 26 Rafale-M in the short-term. If they are going for it, it should be to fight real wars not just for training and building production ecosystem IMHO

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 18 Apr 2023 11:59

williams wrote:
That is great news. But remember 10-12 aircraft with all the bells and whistles will be half a billion dollars (assuming N-LCA is 40-50 million dollar a piece). That would mean bye bye 26 Rafale-M in the short-term. If they are going for it, it should be to fight real wars not just for training and building production ecosystem IMHO

But we would need Trainers for our naval aviators. These NLCA's can act as one.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 18 Apr 2023 20:15

williams wrote:But remember 10-12 aircraft with all the bells and whistles will be half a billion dollars ...

India can afford it. Indeed, India must do it. Not just this, but other similar forward-thinking risk-taking actions. Decisions like this will affect the course of the nation fifty years down the road. It is time for the relevant stakeholders to stop making excuses ("arre bhai, paise kahan se ayenge?") and start making bold decisions. In other words TLL (think like a leader) and not TLB (think like a baniya / bean-counter).

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Apr 2023 20:37

williams wrote:That is great news. But remember 10-12 aircraft with all the bells and whistles will be half a billion dollars (assuming N-LCA is 40-50 million dollar a piece). That would mean bye bye 26 Rafale-M in the short-term. If they are going for it, it should be to fight real wars not just for training and building production ecosystem IMHO.

Such a possible acquisition only strengthens the case for the MRCBF. And *IF* media rumours are to be believed, then it cements the case for the Rafale M as the chosen MRCBF. The Indian Naval Air Arm could have an all delta-wing fighter/trainer fleet (N-LCA, Rafale M and TEDBF).

1) TEDBF is nothing short of 10+ years away and that is an optimistic timeline. The MiG-29K is due for retirement by the next decade and her fleet availability is dismal. With two aircraft carriers in active service, the need for a reliable naval fighter is acute. The MiG-29K can no longer cut it.

2) In her current form, the Naval LCA will be used for training ONLY. It cannot carry any worthwhile payload from INS Vikrant or INS Vikramaditya. The latter's fleet availability is similar to the MiG-29K, although she just came out of a significant refit. Both (the MiG-29K and the Vikramaditya) will quietly sail off into the sunset in the 2030s.

3) Training and building production ecosystem is exactly what the Naval LCA should accomplish. A well executed N-LCA program, could see a capable platform being used for budding naval combat fighter pilots. Rafale M pilots of the French Navy (Marine Nationale) do their first "real world" carrier landing and take off, from a Nimitz Class aircraft carrier of the US Navy. The aircraft used is the T-45 Goshawk. (Side Note --> the T-45 is due for replacement in the near future). After completing their training syllabus in the US, the French naval aviators head back to France for Rafale M training, albeit on simulators. Only after completion of this, do they attempt their first "real world" carrier landing and take off on the Charles De Gaulle.

4) In the Indian scenario, one could see a future training syllabus that looks like this: HTT-40 Basic Trainer Aircraft ---> HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer ---> BAe Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (these are already in service with the Indian Naval Air Arm: https://tinyurl.com/ynde9trb) ---> Naval LCA (carrier landing and take off) ---> graduate to the MRCBF/TEDBF. Around 4 - 5 (maximum) of N-LCA will likely end up on INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya, during deployments. Both are relatively small aircraft carriers and they need to "judiciously" make use of hangar space.

In summary, the N-LCA program can serve wonders for the Indian Naval Air Arm. And if I dare to dream, possibly can also export to countries that are looking for a carrier capable, twin seat trainer (i.e. US and France). The turbofan aboard the Naval LCA is the General Electric F404-IN20, a variant of which is also used by the F-18C/D which is still in service with the US Marine Corps. Not saying that will happen, but why not consider the possibility?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Apr 2023 00:11

I think the IN Aviator group is staring at the monolith and finally realized better order the NLCA.
The folks who demanded twin engines when NLCA was completed should be cashiered and if retired pension cut for the disservice they did.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Apr 2023 00:12

BTW, Off the Jamnagar ranges NLCA drops bombs on a proverbial handkerchief.
Shocking accuracy.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 19 Apr 2023 00:17

IN will come around to NLCA. IMO NLCA Mk2 is more likely than TEDBF. They have more experience with single engine designs and TEDBF is clean sheet twin-engine design which will lake a decade or more to come

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Apr 2023 11:39

I have stated this in the past.

If the NLCA can take off with a full internal fuel load and only upto 40 % of possible external payload of the land based Tejas.

It will still be able to reach a combat radius of 600 kms. Deploying upto 2 Harpoons, 2 Astra and 2 short ranged AAMs.

Land based Tejas External payload 5.7 tons ( Wikipedia stats) . HAL product page doesn't list external payload.

Harpoon weight 691 kg.

Astra weight 152 kg* 2 = 304 kg.

AASRAM weight 87 kg *2 = 174 kg.

Total weight = 1169 kg. Total external payload is 20.5 % with a single Harpoon missile.

32.63% of the maximum external payload with 2 harpoon missile. With air to air payloads remaining identical.

I think that the Navy has made same paper calculations.

ADA and Navy now have to test how much of this are actually translating it to real life.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Apr 2023 16:59

ramana wrote:I think the IN Aviator group is staring at the monolith and finally realized better order the NLCA.
The folks who demanded twin engines when NLCA was completed should be cashiered and if retired pension cut for the disservice they did.

One of the primary person who demanded the end to the N-LCA program retired early from the IN and went on to become Boeing Defense India's head. He has been the one pushing the Super Hornet the hardest.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Apr 2023 17:12

V_Raman wrote:IN will come around to NLCA. IMO NLCA Mk2 is more likely than TEDBF. They have more experience with single engine designs and TEDBF is clean sheet twin-engine design which will lake a decade or more to come

There is no N-LCA Mk2. There is however a TEDBF that is about to go to CCS for funding approval.

There is no way on earth that the N-LCA Mk2 will once again arise and TEDBF will sink. What the IN wants from it's fleet defence fighter is gradually becoming clear. Single engine design has certain limitations that will impact range, payload and in certain cases, the likelihood of ditching over sea becomes lesser with twin engine fighters.

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 19 Apr 2023 17:23

ramana wrote:BTW, Off the Jamnagar ranges NLCA drops bombs on a proverbial handkerchief.
Shocking accuracy.

whoa boss any pics/info in open source ?! Surgical strikes take on a new meaning !

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Apr 2023 17:59

The question is not whether it can carry anything worthwhile when taking off but whether it can land with that payload if required!

I will trust Cdr Mao judgement that NLCA is not ready for combat ops.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 19 Apr 2023 18:03

Kartik wrote:
ramana wrote:I think the IN Aviator group is staring at the monolith and finally realized better order the NLCA.
The folks who demanded twin engines when NLCA was completed should be cashiered and if retired pension cut for the disservice they did.
One of the primary person who demanded the end to the N-LCA program retired early from the IN and went on to become Boeing Defense India's head. He has been the one pushing the Super Hornet the hardest.

The NLCAs fate was sealed when we decided to used a land based fighter as the basis of a naval fighter. It was lack of experience ad Cdr Mao jas stated in the Blue Skies Podcast.

As a combat capable ac the NLCA was going no where….

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 19 Apr 2023 18:52

Q.
- How often do aircraft (land or sea) take off with full payload capacity?
- What is the typical max? 50%, 75%, 90% of full payload?

My point is that evaluating based on full payload might be completely misleading. If evaluated based on more typical loading - the answers might tip in favor of NLCA

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Apr 2023 19:49

Good question Avid. Full payload capacity is only good for specifications on a white paper.

Actual mission parameters will determine internal fuel + external payload. Just your vanilla air protection bubble around your carrier battle group, will require 2 CCMs + 2 BVRAAMs + an external fuel tank. Any other stores (i.e. SPJ) will add even more weight. Whether she can take-off and land on the aircraft carrier (with that load) can be debated to length here on BRF, but only someone like Commodore Mao will be able to definitively answer that question.

And assuming that is possible, how large of a bubble do you want to have around your CBG? The greater the radius of the bubble, that much more time-on-station the Naval LCA will have to manage. If it is unable, then you will have to call in an in-flight refueling aircraft. When you are deep in the ocean somewhere, how feasible is that plan really? Think of the number of IFR aircraft you will need for such a deployment.

And let us also assume, that the above is also logistically worked out by some miraculous divine intervention. Then you are left with the question of eyes-over-the-theatre-of-operations (i.e. an AEW platform). We have a decent capability in the form of the Ka-31 helo, but it is nowhere even near the capability of a singular, purposely developed aircraft like the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye. And you can solve that issue with tasking an AEW platform from the air force, for that role. But remember, a CBG is mobile 24-7. If she is out somewhere in the middle of the Indian Ocean...think of the transit time required for the AEW platform to arrive on station. Then stay on station for the required time. Who is going to refuel this bird, when she runs out of gas?

And this is for a simple air defence bubble around your CBG. Let us not even get into other mission profiles like anti-ship, recon, strike, etc. Looking at payload capacities, internal fuel, weapons carried, etc (in isolation) is academic. However reality states otherwise.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A twin engine aircraft makes ample sense for the Indian Navy and that is what TEDBF will bring. Till then the MRCBF will have to take on the role. The Naval LCA can serve a very important role, if the program is properly executed. And if the program is staffed with stalwarts like Commodore Mao Sir, then rest assured....it will do yeoman service when inducted. Naval LCA could very well turn out to be an excellent trainer, but her utility as a multi-role, carrier borne fighter is doubtful.

After the recent back-to-back HAL Dhruv crashes and the responses from *some* of the veterans, it is scary to think how they will foam at the mouth when the Naval LCA is tasked for a mission she is unable to fulfill and then some tragic accident occurs. Better safe than sorry. Let us not bite more than we can chew. Let Naval LCA do what she can do and leave MRCBF duties to the TEDBF.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 19 Apr 2023 20:06

Thanks Rakesh.

I agree -- N-LCA would be an ideal trainer aircraft for the pilots and rookies.
Additionally, it can also be a great test bed for technology development that can happen in parallel with TEDBF and greatly speed up the subsystems development for TEDBF

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 19 Apr 2023 23:07

Bharadwaj wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/indian- ... lca-order/

Indian Navy Considering Small N-LCA Order?

The lowest of low hanging fruit for a long time but celebrations are far too premature

No proposal, only ‘internal discussions’ so 1-2 more years of deliberations, 2-3 years of paper moving between ministries, 3 years for delivery. Aka not this side of 2030 and meaning this development shafting would play little part in the development of TEDBF

This move should’ve happened 5 years ago but senior leadership couldn’t think beyond paper specs, such myopia is going to cost them dearly as the TEDBF is at best a decade away and their Mig fleet is falling apart. Any serious navy wouldn’t still be sending their fighter boys abroad to become carrier qualified when they N-LCA option was on the table.

@Rakesh, if Rafale is the preferred option for MRCBF then this move would help mitigate the lack of a 2 seat Rafale-M.

That said, N-LCA and MRCBF both seem like post 2030 fantasies if at all.

A day late and a dollar short should be Indian military’s motto.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Apr 2023 23:12

KSingh wrote:@Rakesh, if Rafale is the preferred option for MRCBF then this move would help mitigate the lack of a 2 seat Rafale-M.

100%. I believe the Indian Navy is laying the foundation, for the Rafale M to be the chosen MRCBF. Makes sense from a technical stand point.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 20 Apr 2023 03:10

Mao Sir is on record stating that NLCA prototypes need a lot of work still. If they're thinking of only using these as trainers, then envelope testing needs to resume asap.

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 07 Jun 2023 21:34

What does it take for ADA to update the test flight page in their website? It has been almost 9 months since the last update. Any update on the status of NP-5?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Jun 2023 21:45

konaseema wrote:What does it take for ADA to update the test flight page in their website? It has been almost 9 months since the last update. Any update on the status of NP-5?

What about NP-5? That is an upcoming twin-seat, naval trainer.

I am sorry, but did she fly?

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 07 Jun 2023 22:03

It was about to take its maiden flight earlier this year but haven't seen / heard about the current status in the last 2 months.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jun 2023 21:21

https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... 24032?s=20 ---> A journalist argued that Saab showed flying of its Gripen from highway strips with less than 1 km length. I told him that HAL showed flying of its Tejas from aircraft carriers with less than 190 meter length. Now, we are not talking.

https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/sta ... 25283?s=20 ---> 9+ tons of Naval Tejas Mk1 slamming to zero from 200+ km per hour, in 2.5 seconds in 190 meters, in the middle of the roaring ocean. Not once, but many times on the same day. Swedes won't get to do it with GRIPEN even in their next life.

https://twitter.com/kartachar/status/16 ... 55265?s=20 ---> Correction - HAL demonstrated landing & take off of the Naval LCA not the Tejas, which is the Air Force variant. There are specific differences between them which allow the Naval LCA to land in such a short distance including stronger landing gear, stronger fuselage & arresting hook.

https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... 43041?s=20 ---> Correction - The requirement is there. But like you said, they failed. Hence, I silenced the Gripen loving journo.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 22 Jun 2023 07:24

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... 24032?s=20 ---> A journalist argued that Saab showed flying of its Gripen from highway strips with less than 1 km length. I told him that HAL showed flying of its Tejas from aircraft carriers with less than 190 meter length. Now, we are not talking.
....

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 22 Jun 2023 22:58

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... 24032?s=20 ---> A journalist argued that Saab showed flying of its Gripen from highway strips with less than 1 km length. I told him that HAL showed flying of its Tejas from aircraft carriers with less than 190 meter length. Now, we are not talking.

Isn't that incorrect? The third arresting wire is probably at 70 or 80 meters with a 20-meter pull/leeway. So under 100 meters is the actual answer?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jun 2023 00:01

Rakesh, DId the ADA buy any spare engines for Naval Tejas Mk1?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Jun 2023 19:54

ramana wrote:Rakesh, DId the ADA buy any spare engines for Naval Tejas Mk1?

Ramana-ji, this news item from the official GE website states the following;

GE Aerospace signs MOU with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to produce fighter jet engines for Indian Air Force
https://www.geaerospace.com/press-relea ... ce-fighter
22 June 2023

In 1986, GE began working with the Aeronautical Development Agency and HAL to support the development of India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) with F404 engines. Subsequently GE Aerospace’s F404 and F414 have been part of development and production programs of LCA Mk1 and LCA Mk2 programs. In total, 75 F404 engines have been delivered and another 99 are on order for LCA Mk1A. Eight F414 engines have been delivered as part of an ongoing development program for LCA Mk2.

The above is an excellent data point and here is why;

*From the Tejas Mk1 thread, we know that there are two TD prototypes, six PV prototypes and eight LSP prototypes. That is 16 aircraft right there, so a corresponding 16 turbofans. Also from the Tejas Mk1 thread, we know that there are 32 SP aircraft, so another 32 turbofans. The first SP trainer also recently flew (05 April 2023) as well. In the Naval LCA Mk1 thread, there are two aircraft (NP-1 and NP-2) that we know of. So another two turbofans.

*Based on the above, there are 51 Tejas Mk1 aircraft currently flying or being tested for other purposes. From GE's own statement in the link above, a total of 75 F404 turbofans have been delivered. So there should be 24 turbofans still available. Seven of those remaining 24 turbofans will be used for the SP trainers that are in the manufacturing stage. That will bring the numbers down to 17 F404 turbofans left.

*There were additional naval prototypes planned (one more trainer and two single seaters), but I am unsure if they were ever built. My assumption is they will *NOT* be built, with the twin engine TEDBF program underway and that aircraft will be powered by the F414 turbofan.

I do apologize for the long winded answer, but ADA/HAL will have spare F404 turbofans on hand...in the eventuality that a particular turbofan goes awry and they need to swap it out for another.

P.S. Apart from these 75 F404s, another 99 F404s are on order for the 83 Tejas Mk1A contract. So again, around 16 spares.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 26 Jun 2023 23:46

It is hard to imagine that we have made 51 LCA of various make. I would say product development wise and testing, you cannot do more than this. Tejas FOC is a matured product. The beauty of owning IP, we are making next version of it, MK1a and MK2. Just praying that it happens fast. We own 51 Mirage 2000s.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jul 2023 20:34

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 73569?s=20 ---> Update:

- For the 'Simulation Phase' of the LCA Navy's Manned-Unmanned Teaming (MUMT) demonstration, the Aeronautical Development Agency is seeking an industry partner.

- The project will last for nine months. The two missions that are planned to be shown are BVR Aerial Combat (Air to Air) and Maritime Strike (Air to Sea).

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 19681?s=20 ---> Man Unmanned Teaming (MUMT) Demonstration on LCA Navy.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 04 Aug 2023 18:06

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 5u8mw&s=19

Alpha Defense is reporting a 3rd NLCA prototype built and ground run completed in Jan 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Aug 2023 18:12

NP-5 is a planned twin seater naval trainer. See page 1 of this thread.

So if the news is true, then it is likely that an order for NLCA might happen.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Aug 2023 17:55

She flew today, per my paanwallah!!

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 18 Aug 2023 18:18

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 3884386339

Breaking NLCA NP5 successfully completed maiden flight today at
HAL airport