Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by KSingh »

fanne wrote:if I were to suggest something dumb - We do not know for sure what was IN objection. Journalist (and we know how good they are) have reported two things 1) It is single engine (so was Sea Harriers and are F-35s) and 2) It does not have enough thrust (which matters hugely for IN, it will take up space and if it cannot carry meaningful store for reasonable time, it is useless)

We cannot do anything about 1, except, engine is reliable but for 2, we can go for f404epe (rumors are that there exist an engine). It gives supposedly 10-15% more power. We can perhaps try that?
Please read the scene shot in the tweet above. The IN officially killed NLCA in 2016. They aren’t interested in improving it as they cancelled the NLCA MK.2 project entirely
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by NRao »

fanne wrote:
we can go for f404epe (rumors are that there exist an engine). It gives supposedly 10-15% more power. We can perhaps try that?
The GE F-404-IN20, used in the LCA, is 7+% more powerful that the F-404 variants used in other aircraft. It is the most powerful of all F-404s variants. Custom designed for the LCA.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by fanne »

MK2 was a new project with F414 (like our MK2, that is mysteriously going to take 3 years to fly if all goes well). Here what I am proposing is same NLCA that is flying, with same engine (F404) with enhanced performance - F404 EPE. maybe that 15% extra thrust would make the load carrying respectable/useful.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by fanne »

NRao wrote:
The GE F-404-IN20, used in the LCA, is 7+% more powerful that the F-404 variants used in other aircraft. It is the most powerful of all F-404s variants. Custom designed for the LCA.
There are rumours of yet more powerful F 404 EPE - 15% more than base, meaning 8% more than IN20. Did you guys catch that slip up of F-404-IN30?
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Cyrano »

Yes ! Yess !! YESSSSS !!!

I've been arguing for a long time that IAF should order half a squadron of N-LCA in a naval trainer role to train pilots and crew in carrier ops. I sincerely hope this is a first step towards that. Will also help TEDBF in more ways that we can imagine.

Well done NLCA team, Naval pilots and Vikrant crew !! A fantastic milestone.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by NRao »

The F-18 Hornet uses the F-404-402, the Beoing T-7A Red Hawk uses the F-404-103 and the KAI T-50 uses the F-404-102. They all are rated at 17,000 ibs.

The JAS 39 Grippen uses the RM12 (a version of the F-404) with a thrust of 18,100 lbs

The LCA uses the F-404-IN20, custom-made, with a thrust of 19,000 lbs

________________

The LCA Mk2 is expected to use the F-414-INS6, with a thrust of 22,000 lbs.

The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet (F-414-400), Jas 39E/R Grippen NG (F-414-39E), KAI KF-21 Boramae (F-414-400K), and the NASA X-59 QueSST (F-414-100) all have the same thrust of 22,000 lbs

__________________

The GE F-414 Enhanced Engine, proposed for the Super Hornet, has a thrust of 26,000 lbs
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by chetak »

Cyrano wrote:Yes ! Yess !! YESSSSS !!!

I've been arguing for a long time that IAF should order half a squadron of N-LCA in a naval trainer role to train pilots and crew in carrier ops. I sincerely hope this is a first step towards that. Will also help TEDBF in more ways that we can imagine.

Well done NLCA team, Naval pilots and Vikrant crew !! A fantastic milestone.
Cyrano ji,

what exactly would be the purpose of such an exercise and why would it be necessary....
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

@fanne: saw your query. will get back to you soon.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

A little nugget of info ---> the Naval Tejas aircraft that landed on INS Vikrant was NP-2 (Naval Prototype-2).

NP-2 had her first flight on 07 Feb 2015. The pilot in command of that 'first' flight was (then) Captain Shivnath Dahiya.

Eight years later (almost to the day!) NP-2 lands on INS Vikrant and again commanded by (now) Commodore Shivnath Dahiya (retd).

What a birthday present for NP-2! :)
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Cyrano »

Chetak ji,
My civilian brain thinks having a Vikrant with no carrier ops to train pilots, technicians, deck crew regularly again and again to a high degree of capability because we don't have fighters defeats the whole purpose and will only make Vikrant an expensive showpiece.

We can use our mig 29s of course but how much can we flog them with replacements from Russia quite uncertain these days plus we have no money for more of them.

Rafale comes when it comes. Even Rafale pilots train with US carriers IIRC because CDG is not always avl.
SBTF is far away from a moving bobbing carrier, I'm not even sure it's envisaged in any pilot training. We at least have Vicky and Vikrant, so gives us more options

Our naval aviators also have a shelf life ie they need regular training, those who become too senior or retire must be replaced with new pilots, and we need to have required bench strength if we want to be a 2 carrier navy. Idem for technicians and deck crew.

Hence the idea of using a bunch of NLCAs as naval trainers. May be learned folks here will say it's a hare brained idea... In which case I'd like to know why to improve my understanding.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Cyrano »

Eight years later (almost to the day!) NP-2 lands on INS Vikrant and again commanded by (now) Commodore Shivnath Dahiya (retd).
8 years!! We got lucky Vikrant got ready before Cdr Dahiya retired from flying! Who and how many can he train to carry forward this experience ?! How many flying years does he have left ?
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by astal »

What a moment! Many moons ago, I had mentioned on this board that an Indian fighter landing on an Indian carrier would warm the cockles of many a jingoes heart. Thank you to the pilots, scientists and engineers that have made this possible.

Regarding purchase of additional NLCA aircraft in their current form for training and limited operation, please consider all that is involved in terms of man power, time and money. According to Cdr Balaji, the Navy LCA's are 40%-45% different from the Airforce Tejas. (See this article https://bharatkarnad.com/2017/04/14/cmd ... naval-lca/)

Manufacturing, testing, certifying, deploying and maintaining just 12-18 aircraft for training and light air defense duty is not sensible economics or strategy. Going from a Tejas MK1 to Tejas MK1A was such as time consuming task though the airframe is identical. Until recently we thought that the move from Tejas MK1A to Tejas MK2 would be simple and we would have a prototype if not a first flight already completed by now.

The Navy has an even more complicated setup for deploying and maintaining Aircraft on ships. The IN aviation wing has suffered due to the induction of hastily carrierised Mig 29K. They do not want to be guinea pigs for another small run aircraft only to see it replaced by the ORCA-N in a short time. (I cant get myself to say TED**). I trust the IN and GOI on this decision. According to wikipedia, Manohar Parrikar was Raksha Mantri until March 13th 2017 surely if it could have been done, between Maolankar, Parikkar and Balaji, it would have been done.

The Navy understands why technology must be designed, developed and manufactured in India. They have an ambitious yet achievable project in their hands. They have funded it adequately. The ADA and IN will continue to achieve their aviation mile stones. They have a proven track record. Congratulations for the achievements so far and steel your hearts for the many challenges yet to come.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Prasad »

Setting aside sunk-cost fallacy for a moment, the jigs for making a series of naval tejas a/c exists. So it wouldn't be a stretch to manufacture a set of naval tejas to act as a lift for naval pilots moving on from the hawks for carrier qualification. Rather than sending them to Florida, it might be a better option to train them on an Indian jet.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

Landing Tejas jet on INS Vikrant explained: 240 to 0 Kmph In 2.5 Seconds
https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/left-ri ... o-featured
06 Feb 2023
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

HISTORY! Indian Fighter Lands On Indian Aircraft Carrier
https://www.livefistdefence.com/history ... t-carrier/
06 Feb 2023

Commodore Shivnath Dahiya (Retd), Callsign - DAX

Image Source: https://twitter.com/writetake/status/56 ... uMc0-K2xMA

Image
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... dh8KSRsXsA ---> For the record: It is the LCA Navy and not Tejas. Tejas is the name given to the IAF’s LCA which obviously cannot land on a carrier.

https://twitter.com/kakodia_vikas/statu ... dh8KSRsXsA ---> Doesn't matter. We gonna call it Tejas. :rotfl:
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by JTull »

Re: Tejas

As Mao sir described it, NLCA is a delta on AF-LCA Tejas just like the AF-Trainer version. Main and rear fuselage are from AF-LCA. Front fuselage is from AF-Trainer.

Will the AF-Trainer be called a different name? No.

Does any other country call AF/Navy versions differently (e.g., Rafale, Hornet)?

Why should NLCA be named differently then?
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Bala Vignesh »

fanne wrote:Rakesh, I have to listen to full 1.5 hours to get the answer (that is on top of, I have already heard it many months ago). Can you do few lines please on the reason?
Fanne,
If memory serves right, there were fuel system issues and landing gear over weight issues. The cost involved for rectifying these were considered to be too much for a limited production run that the navy order might entail.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by JTull »

Bala Vignesh wrote:
fanne wrote:Rakesh, I have to listen to full 1.5 hours to get the answer (that is on top of, I have already heard it many months ago). Can you do few lines please on the reason?
Fanne,
If memory serves right, there were fuel system issues and landing gear over weight issues. The cost involved for rectifying these were considered to be too much for a limited production run that the navy order might entail.
The videos in this post answer all your questions. It is clear NLCA has lot of shortcomings that will take years of testing to overcome. Clean slate design is the only option.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7790&start=520#p2578201
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

India's Pitch for Self-Reliance: Post NLCA Success, Can Aerospace Be Stepped Up?
https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion ... stepped-up
By Commodore C Uday Bhaskar (retd), 08 Feb 2023
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

Read the quoted part below....

Naval Counterpart Of LCA Tejas Conducts Maiden Operations From INS Vikrant
https://www.overtdefense.com/2023/02/06 ... s-vikrant/
06 Feb 2023
Eventually, LCA(N) will help demonstrate and develop Autonomous Take-Off and Landing (ATOL), Electronic Pilot and Manned-UnManned Teaming (MUM-T) technologies, eventually leading to optional manning.

A MUM-T demonstration using two LCA(N) and two UAVs is planned to be held off the coast of Goa, India. The LCA(N) will control the UAV camera payload, conduct joint manoeuvres with the UAVs and task the UAVs for strike missions. The demonstration would be conducted at low altitudes and at speeds of up to 400 km/h. Such trials would be required to mature the MUM-T concept which would prominently feature in programs such as the HAL-NewSpace Research and Technologies Combat Air Teaming System (CATS), among others.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by A Deshmukh »

if ATOL is established can this result in usability / acceptability of LCA NP Mk1? we can have a squadron of Mk1 while waiting for TEDBF.

If we need smaller planes (without pilot), then it will mean, we can live with smaller aircraft carrier.
repeat order for IAC-II?
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Prem Kumar »

Wow - that's cool, Rakesh!

But why is LCA-Navy preferred to do CATS experimentation? Is it just because the air-frame is available as a test-bed?

These developments will lead to next gen mission computers, data-links, displays etc, which can all make it into the AMCA and Tejas-MK2 programs!
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:India's Pitch for Self-Reliance: Post NLCA Success, Can Aerospace Be Stepped Up?
https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion ... stepped-up
By Commodore C Uday Bhaskar (retd), 08 Feb 2023

Any argument in SQuint and Print etc are non-starters for these are anti-national media run by Sorrows ilk.

The whole point of the Naval LCA being the first a/c to land and take off on the Indian-built carrier is to show determination that Indian aerospace is stepped up.
What's the point of that article?
And timing is not lost if one is a strategic matters observer.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by fanne »

2 seater n lca May still have chance as a aircraft carrier trainees. I think 40% of mig 29k have crashed and if Rafale is chosen it does not have a 2 seat trainer naval version. Any way you look at it, we may need anything from 6-16 2 seater n lca for training mig 29k and Rafale fighters.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

The reason, IIRC listening to Maolankar sir's interview, for the NLCA not being ordered was the distinct lack of internal space to carry a meaningful fuel load. This was due to the larger/ beefier undercarriage which took up space (e.g.the nosewheel landing gear taking up space in what would be the centerline fuel tank.). Additional support structure required for absorbing the landing shock (arrestor gear support) etc. He said something to the effect of it wasn't a good idea to just shoehorn structures into a land based aircraft. Maybe the Navy doesn't want to put sparse resources - a capital intensive wing with the least allocations - into developing a 'trainer' rather using those funds to develop a dedicated platform.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

When it comes to naval trainer aircraft (for rookie pilots to train on), this is what the blue water navies of the world that operate aircraft carriers/flat tops do;

1) USN and USMC: The twin seater F-18F is NOT used for carrier training by the US Navy. A mix of simulators and the T-45 Goshawk (carrier capable version of the BAe Hawk) is used. The US Navy uses any one of their 11 aircraft carriers that are available. There is no dedicated aircraft carrier used solely for training. The twin seater F-18F is used for certain strike/recon missions and the twin seater is also the basis for the F-18G Growler (an Electronic Warfare variant). There is no twin seater F-35 variant out there and naval pilots that operate the F-35C adopt the same path - simulators and T-45 Goshawk. Marine Corps pilots that operate the VSTOL F-35B adopt a similar training regime i.e. mainly simulators.

2) French Navy (Marine Nationale): Rookie French naval combat aviators learn the basics of aircraft carrier landings and take offs from the US Navy. The French send their trainee pilots to attend the same course as their US counterparts. They do the same training - T-45 Goshawk and simulators. This makes perfect sense for the French, as the steam catapult on the Charles De Gaulle is sourced from the same company that makes the steam catapult for the Nimitz Class aircraft carriers. Their upcoming PANG aircraft carrier will feature the same EMALS system - from General Atomics - that is aboard the Gerald R Ford Class. After completing their training syllabus in the US, they head back to France and train on Rafale simulators. They also operate the twin seater Rafale B, but only from land bases and is solely for cockpit familiarization. The Rafale B is not carrier compatible and the proposed twin seater, naval Rafale BM was cancelled to save on developmental costs.

3) Royal Navy: The pair of Queen Elizabeth Class STOBAR carriers operate the VSTOL F-35B. Here too, extensive use of simulators are used. I am not sure of what, if any, fixed wing trainer aircraft the Fleet Air Arm uses. Added Later: They operate the Grob Tutor T1 and then the Grob Prefect T1. Both are propeller powered aircraft. After completing this stage, they move on to fixed wing jet or rotary aircraft. The first time a newbie RN pilot lands on a QE Class aircraft carrier, is via operating the VSTOL F-35B. Therefore, he/she will have to prove their proficiency on simulators before any such attempt is made.

4) Russian Navy: They use the twin seater Su-27KUB/Su-33UB to train their combat naval aviators, who operate the Su-33 and the MiG-29KUBR, who operate the MiG-29KR. We funded the latter :)

5) Chinese Navy (PLAN): They use the twin seater J-15S to train their combat naval aviators, who operate the J-15/J-15T/J-15B and the J-15D (EW variant). The J-15 is a reverse engineered Su-33.

6) The Indian Navy uses the twin seater MiG-29KUB to train their combat naval aviators, who operate the single seater MiG-29K. There is also a simulator of the MIG-29K at Goa. If the Rafale M is the winner of the MRCBF contest, it will adopt a similar training regime as of the French Navy. From Hawk AJTs to twin seater Rafale Bs + simulators, which will lead to the Rafale M. I am not sure how convinced the Navy is of the viability of a fleet of twin seater Naval Tejas.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Cyrano »

Thank you for a very informative post Rakesh ji.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

You are welcome Cyrano-ji
Prem Kumar wrote:Wow - that's cool, Rakesh!

But why is LCA-Navy preferred to do CATS experimentation? Is it just because the air-frame is available as a test-bed?

These developments will lead to next gen mission computers, data-links, displays etc, which can all make it into the AMCA and Tejas-MK2 programs!
Quite possibly, yes. But someone will have to confirm.

CATS will roll out to the Mk2, AMCA, TEDBF, etc. It is the future.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Prem Kumar »

Actually, a lot of 6th gen tech are things like CATS. Though they are bracketed under 6th gen, they can be back-ported to 4th and 5th gen planes (whereas stealth cannot)
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

Tejas Mark 1: Stepping stone to self-reliance
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/02/teja ... -self.html
15 Feb 2023
“Trials of landing and taking off from a carrier’s deck are currently under way in INS Vikrant and we are successfully doing those with a prototype LCA (Navy),” said Deodhare. The LCA Navy prototype is proving all the indigenous technologies coming out of our sister laboratories for future aircraft, said the ADA chief. These include the radar, the electronic warfare systems and weapons such as the Astra air-to-air missiles. Since all the avionics on the Astra are indigenous, this is easily done. Within a few months it can be made ready for testing and qualifying.

“Thanks to the LCA (Navy) prototype, we are understanding how to design carrier-based naval aircraft and are progressing very well,” said Deodhare. The LCA (Navy) was initially sanctioned in 2003 and it first flew in 2012. It did the first ski-jump in 2014 and the first arrested landing in 2019. Just two months later, it graduated to a carrier deck -- such was the navy’s confidence in the aircraft.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by SSridhar »

The following is significant too from the same interview:
There is already an automated take-off in the LCA Navy. Deodhare says the pilot, even when he is sitting in the cockpit, is not pressing any buttons and the aircraft takes off on its own.

“Whilst landing, we have never missed an approach – we have never missed a single wire. Our landing approach is automated almost completely, as is the take off,” he says.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Yagnasri »

Then we are now very close to having an unmanned fighter take off then. Great achievement.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

SSridhar wrote:The following is significant too from the same interview...
Indeed. That is a fantastic achievement. See this as well from Commodore JA Maolankar (retd)....

https://twitter.com/JA_Maolankar/status ... 86880?s=20 ---> Chalk up one more for “lack of mode awareness!” For this exact reason LCA(N) interlocks the Carrier app unique HUD symbology with correct FCS mode selection. And FCS mode selection was made the default option once undercarriage is extended…

https://twitter.com/JA_Maolankar/status ... 48512?s=20 ---> …Was clearly ID’ed as a source of error and hence even by 2nd prototype stage included such interlocks. But such engineering oversights by major design houses continue to bewilder!

The good Commodore tweeted the above in response to below...

Pilot Error After ‘Sierra Hotel Break’ Resulted in South China Sea F-35C Crash, Investigation Says
https://news.usni.org/2023/02/21/pilot- ... ation-says
21 Feb 2023
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:Landing Tejas jet on INS Vikrant explained: 240 to 0 Kmph In 2.5 Seconds
https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/left-ri ... o-featured
06 Feb 2023
Rakesh, recall the drama from MoD and threats issued o Naval LCA to prove to land on a carrier a few years back.
And now that it landed and took off from INCS Vikrant, the MoD, and the detractors all are quiet or claiming credit!!!
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Landing Tejas jet on INS Vikrant explained: 240 to 0 Kmph In 2.5 Seconds
https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/left-ri ... o-featured
06 Feb 2023
Rakesh, recall the drama from MoD and threats issued o Naval LCA to prove to land on a carrier a few years back.
And now that it landed and took off from INCS Vikrant, the MoD, and the detractors all are quiet or claiming credit!!!
"Victory has a thousand fathers, but defeat is an orphan."

- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

She ruined the picture, but nevertheless....

https://twitter.com/shivanipost/status/ ... 05186?s=20 ---> Third time on India's pride INS Vikrant in last two years. Witnessed the Naval Commanders Conference onboard INS Vikrant off the Goa shore along with operational demo by multiple ships and aircrafts.

Image

Same aircraft, different angle...

https://twitter.com/manishindiatv/statu ... 14690?s=20 --->

Image
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

Short video of Commodore Shivnath Dahiya showing Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh the cockpit of Naval Tejas.

https://mobile.twitter.com/manishindiat ... 90/video/2
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 84070?s=20 ---> The Prime Minister was briefed on the indigenous LCA Navy by Commodore Shivnath Dahiya aboard INS Vikrant.

https://twitter.com/AlboMP/status/16338 ... 15424?s=20 ---> I was pleased to formally announce Australia will host Exercise Malabar for the first time later this year, bringing together the @Australian_Navy, @IndiannavyMedia, @USNavy and @jmsdf_pao_eng.

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 98817?s=20 --->

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Rakesh
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 97632?s=20 ---> LCA NP-1 & NP-2 flying together.

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