Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

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Vivek K
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Vivek K »

Just because we can multiply and add does not mean we know what we're talking about. If IN stays with Migs, it may end up discarding Carriers. Go for NLCA now to build capability for the future.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by srai »

rajsunder wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Going in for NLCA over Mig-29k makes far more sense. Buying an aircraft that needs to go into the shop after every flight in war time would hamper strike capability and risk aircrew safety. A lower capability that is reliable would allow planning around their capabilities. In time, as TEDBF matures, the experience gained through the NLCA would make it a better, more optimized aircraft.

Engineering logic would dictate the purchase of NLCA and cap of 29 k purchases - even for attrition replacement.
how much time do u think NLCA can do carrying a meaningful load of missiles and fuel tanks?

from DDR site, specs for NLCA

Empty Weight [T] 8.8* + Add Fuel of 2.5 or so Gross Weight would be 11.3
MTOW [T] 13.2* (I think this does not take in to consideration the weight penalty for using a STOBAR Carrier, which i remember reading is in the order of about 15% of MTOW)

The calculations as per the above figures show that at best NLCA can only take off and land without any missiles or extra fuel tanks.

So what is Indian Navy going to use NLCA for?
Have a chat with Indranil or JayS. They have done a very detailed analysis on Tejas-N Mk.1.

A Detailed Look At The Design Evolution Of India’s Naval-LCA Mk1 Fighter

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rajsunder
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by rajsunder »

srai wrote:
Have a chat with Indranil or JayS. They have done a very detailed analysis on Tejas-N Mk.1.

A Detailed Look At The Design Evolution Of India’s Naval-LCA Mk1 Fighter
I read the whole thing, but some thing still escapes me. If LCA MK1 can do a MTOW of 13.5, how can NLCA do about 13.2? From what i read the penalty from taking off a STOBAR would be at least 10-15%.
Vivek K
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Vivek K »

Perhaps because maybe they haven't given you the exact capabilities of MK1.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Barath »

That Mk1A number has a * indicating it's not official, it's an estimate. Also, possibly Mk1 number had some padding available, or the changes such as levcon may have helped...
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/HarshalPal5/status/ ... 63048?s=20 ---> A view the WSO would experience from the cockpit of N-LCA. Of course, the cockpit representation is approximate. Quick one: How many NLCA can u spot (discarding the one hosting camera)?

https://twitter.com/HarshalPal5/status/ ... 63048?s=20 ---> It really should look like this.

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Pratyush
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Pratyush »

4 if you count the one in the rear view mirror.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Cyrano »

Nitpicks: Aricraft banking right and attitude/horizon indicator going the other way? Have we put the wide angle HUD into NLCA? I'll let the HUD symbology pass...

Very beautiful work nevertheless !
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by sajaym »

Cyrano wrote:Nitpicks: Aricraft banking right and attitude/horizon indicator going the other way?
Yup! That's how it works. See the below video 0.35 to 0.40.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Cyrano »

Ah yes of course ! I got confused all on my own LoL !!
RishiChatterjee
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Any chance of 8 NLCAs for Vikrant?..
Barath
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Barath »

No.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by KSingh »

RishiChatterjee wrote:Any chance of 8 NLCAs for Vikrant?..
It’d be great to see the IN raise an OCU consisting of NLCAs especially to provide carrier qualifications, this would surely provide plenty of learnings to feed into TEDBF but the IN can’t even cover their basic needs so this seems like a pipe dream.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by ramana »

It's not like IN pays for these planes. It comes from Govt of India. It's possible to order 16 so can rotate 8 planes and get operational data.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by KSingh »

ramana wrote:It's not like IN pays for these planes. It comes from Govt of India. It's possible to order 16 so can rotate 8 planes and get operational data.
The GoI allocates the IN funds and the IN decides how to spend them. I can somewhat understand how they would conclude that a squadron of NLCA purely for the LIFT/OCU/carrier qualification role isn’t a huge priority for them even if it’s beneficial for Indian aerospace as a whole.


Myopic thinking from them but understandable too
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Roop »

Cyrano wrote:Nitpicks: Aricraft banking right and attitude/horizon indicator going the other way?
No, the aircraft is not banking right, it is banking left. Take a look at the cloud base and you will see that. Also, the attitude/horizon indicator is correct.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by RishiChatterjee »

8 NLCAs may be coming indeed!

https://idrw.org/lca-navy-mk1-navy-cons ... -squadron/

16 extra F404s ordered, 99 not 83.. 8)

IRDW says:
Navy is considering HAL’s proposal to procure 18 jets that will be deputed on board both aircraft carriers to serve as an upcoming dedicated carrier training squadron and also has a point air defense interceptor.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Cain Marko »

RishiChatterjee wrote:8 NLCAs may be coming indeed!

https://idrw.org/lca-navy-mk1-navy-cons ... -squadron/

16 extra F404s ordered, 99 not 83.. 8)

IRDW says:
Navy is considering HAL’s proposal to procure 18 jets that will be deputed on board both aircraft carriers to serve as an upcoming dedicated carrier training squadron and also has a point air defense interceptor.
Lovely news if true. As a point defense bird, with 4 bvr and 2 wvr at 50% fuel, you can possibly still get mig21 combat radius with cft. But with far more a2a capability. Definitely worth a Dekko.

Top it up with mig 29k AAR flights and you could easily get very decent CAP missions done.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Cain Marko wrote: Lovely news if true. As a point defense bird, with 4 bvr and 2 wvr at 50% fuel, you can possibly still get mig21 combat radius with cft. But with far more a2a capability. Definitely worth a Dekko.

Top it up with mig 29k AAR flights and you could easily get very decent CAP missions done.
Regarding that we could try using seaplanes as AWACS & refueling tankers. Even our comparatively small US-2 can carry 15ton liquid from sea (takeoff with that much water in firefighting flybys)... And can take off from rough sea with up to 3m high waves.

Just imagine anti-submarine aircraft that can operate like P-8I & can just land on the surface & dip sonar.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by kit »

RishiChatterjee wrote:Just imagine anti-submarine aircraft that can operate like P-8I & can just land on the surface & dip sonar.
maybe not a good idea
Last edited by Rakesh on 19 Aug 2021 18:59, edited 1 time in total.
RishiChatterjee
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by RishiChatterjee »

kit wrote:
RishiChatterjee wrote:Just imagine anti-submarine aircraft that can operate like P-8I & can just land on the surface & dip sonar.
maybe not a good idea
Oh. I thought it'd be safer than flying around, it'll be below radars... Unlike a vessel it can flyoff & get back down (basically what I'm saying is, it gets a lot of initiative. Unlike a Corvette it won't have to worry about not being detected itself. Any doubt & you run off to reposition yourself few km away).

But it is with tankers that prospects will really be huge!.. Jets can take off with minimal internal fuel & empty tanks to fill up once in the air.
Maritime strike configs like these would actually be feasible;

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Last edited by RishiChatterjee on 20 Aug 2021 08:53, edited 1 time in total.
Rakesh
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

RishiChatterjee wrote:8 NLCAs may be coming indeed!

https://idrw.org/lca-navy-mk1-navy-cons ... -squadron/

16 extra F404s ordered, 99 not 83.. 8)
I wonder from where IDRW did a cut-and-paste of this article. Hopefully some more authentic source will come up. Till then...

https://twitter.com/RupprechtDeino/stat ... 98624?s=20 ---> What a great image once again from Deb Rana: One of the two naval Tejas (NP-2 / KH-3002) and a MiG-29K in the background at the INS Vikramaditya.

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by sankum »

Vice Admiral Anil Kumar Chawla talked about the carrier carrying final version of light combat aircraft when it comes in (which is NP 5 version) in interview to Nitin Gokhle.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

Right on sankum-ji. This is very good news.

A long awaited dream of many jingos on this forum. Valuable data for the TEDBF program.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by sankum »

There was Russian news report of additional 14 nos Mig 29k requirement of IN. No chance of Rafale and F18. Money will be better spent if NLCA is bought instead of additional MiG-29K so that numbers of required fighters for both carriers are maintained.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

Sankum-ji, if you continue to post such great news like this...I will have to start distributing mithai :lol:

They may acquire a few more MiG-29KUB (twin seaters) to make up for the attrition losses. The Indian Naval Air Arm has had at least two write-offs of the KUB fleet. Keeping fingers crossed and hoping that NLCAs are ordered for the Vikramaditya and Vikrant.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by disha »

sankum wrote:Vice Admiral Anil Kumar Chawla talked about the carrier carrying final version of light combat aircraft when it comes in (which is NP 5 version) in interview to Nitin Gokhle.
Sankum'ji, Aapke mooh mein Ghee-Sakkar (May you have Ghee-Jaggery sweet).

This is the dream lot of Jingoes had it since July 2010. Yes that's when the twin seater prototype was rolled out. Nobody thought then that it will be a easy short hop on to an indigenous air craft carrier.

One decade later, there is now talk of the carrier carrying final version of LCA Mk1 (NP5).

My wish, Navy should go in for 12+4 NLCA Mk1. The other four (4) are twin seater configuration. Primarily for reconnaissance, but can be used for LIFT and IN will have the most advanced LIFT in the world. And the NLCA squadron will generate enough data and stress the supply chain processes for both the carriers and the shore based facilities.

Remember, India will be the first asian country to have its own designed and developed Naval Fighter on its own designed and developed Aircraft carrier which will be operationalized soon*

*Soon -> when we are talking about a decade or more, a 1 year here or there is "soon".

PS: Added the function of Reconnaissance to the twin seater.
Last edited by disha on 19 Aug 2021 22:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by disha »

And BTW, Naval LCA looks majestic. Like a juvenile Lion ready to kick some ass. It does have a good attitude for sure. And I hope TEDBF continues the same forward.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Anyone can tell what these could be, on the NP-2 in place of the 2nd guy in NP-1?.. Where would those be in case of the twin-seater?

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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by disha »

Rishi'ji, that appears to be Desi version of ATARS (I will call it DATARS, Desi Advanced Tactical Airborne Reconnaissance System)
ATARS possesses unique capabilities that will provide a commander with timely imagery, including day and night infrared electro-optic intelligence collection. ATARS currently provides digitally-formatted reconnaissance data ... for processing, exploitation, and dissemination. Additionally, it provides an all-weather capability. The imagery collected by ATARS provides sufficient detail and accuracy to permit delivery of appropriate air and ground weapons, assist with battle damage assessment, and provide tactical commanders with information about the enemy they face.
I just wish, the photo was cropped, the semi-hemisphere reflector on the lower left is distracting. Maybe the photo provider should have put a grainy image with some weeds in the foreground.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by nash »

Rakesh wrote:Right on sankum-ji. This is very good news.

A long awaited dream of many jingos on this forum. Valuable data for the TEDBF program.


From 6:40 on-wards, it is just one line but we can expect deployment of small numbers of N-LCA on IAC1.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Rakesh »

Nash this is fantastic news. Kudos to the Indian Navy for this decision.

@ Vivek_K, this is your moment to celebrate Sirjee :)
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by fanne »

i am hoping that - that one liner means something - that is more NLCA? Do we know (or speculate) the reason for its non suitability (apart from 1 engine and inherent risk) - How much fuel and loads it can take off with?
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by disha »

Rakesh wrote:@ Vivek_K, this is your moment to celebrate Sirjee :)
Definitely Vivek_k'ji should celebrate. All other jingoes must celebrate as well.

And note sir'ji, Gautam Sarkar'ji and myself and several others had been advocating for operational NLCA from day 1. Even now "Delhi dur hain" (Delhi is still far away). Still a psychological breach is made.

At the same time, we all are cheerleaders on the side. The real work was put in by the Team NLCA (all orgs HAL, IN, ADA, ....) and it is showing.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Vivek K »

Rakesh wrote:Nash this is fantastic news. Kudos to the Indian Navy for this decision.

@ Vivek_K, this is your moment to celebrate Sirjee :)
Absolutely! Good sense is prevailing it seems. Godspeed the NLCA. Great moment for India. Please no lifts on IAC-2 bigger than NLCA/TEDBF!! Some Chanakya has saved us! Thanks to him/her. Most of all to the DRDO/HAL/IN (Cmmdr Mao) teams that have made this possible.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Cyrano »

And late Shri Manohar Parrikar ! LCA forever indebted to him.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by Haridas »

There was never a FOC Naval-LCA, IIRC they were all prototypes and after Navy rejected that path, all in stand still.
Now asking for FOC is moving teh goal post on an already stretched HAL that is struggling with Tejas-Mk1A, Mk-2 and AMCA. Dont have time for NLCA FOC. Just take more of what Cdr Mao tested.
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by fanne »

not to say TEDBF rolling out in 2026 (planned). Does ADA/HAL have that bandwidth?
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Re: Naval Tejas Mk1: News & Discussion - 03 January 2020

Post by RishiChatterjee »

disha wrote:I just wish, the photo was cropped, the semi-hemisphere reflector on the lower left is distracting. Maybe the photo provider should have put a grainy image with some weeds in the foreground.
This took me a while to get :rotfl:
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