Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

[Rakesh]

Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF)

Thanks to BRF Members --> Ashish Vikas, Kakarat, Prasad and SaiK for all their help.

Future Milestones
• First flight expected in 2025 or 2026

Design Specifications
• Length: 16.3 metres
• Wingspan (Folded): 7.6 metres
• Wingspan (Unfolded): 11.2 metres
• Engine: Two General Electric F414 turbofans
• Maximum Take Off Weight: 26 tonnes
• Maximum Payload Capacity: 9 tonnes

Performance
• Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
• Service Ceiling: 60,000 feet
• G Limits: +8/-3

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NDTV Exclusive: First Look At Futuristic Variant Of India's Tejas Fighter
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/if-deve ... ts-2159016
By Vishnu Som, 05 January 2020

India's DRDO forced to ditch LCA Navy Mk2 for clean sheet Twin-Engine jet design
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2019/11 ... esign.html
By Shiv Aroor, 20 November 2019

The Indian Navy And DRDO move on from the NLCA Mk2 to the Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF)
http://delhidefencereview.com/2019/11/1 ... ter-tedbf/
By Sriram Thiagarajan, 18 November 2019

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TEDBF @ Aero India 2021 with Project Director Vinod Kumar
*Interview courtesy of Prasad, Delhi Defence Review --> http://delhidefencereview.com/



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Photographs: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter
*If the pictures do not load, please clicks on the link below.

Photos below are courtesy of Satwik Sadhukhan.

https://twitter.com/i_m_satwikk/status/ ... 66180?s=20 --->

https://twitter.com/i_m_satwikk/status/ ... 56164?s=20 --->

https://twitter.com/i_m_satwikk/status/ ... 77282?s=20 --->

https://twitter.com/i_m_satwikk/status/ ... 57248?s=20 --->

https://twitter.com/i_m_satwikk/status/ ... 97602?s=20 --->

https://twitter.com/i_m_satwikk/status/ ... 62021?s=20 --->

[Rakesh]

Mods, please add or remove any info or pictures that you feel is necessary in the first post of this thread.

First post of this thread will serve as reference. Please only use official sources (for photos and data) in the first post. Thank You.

[Kakarat]

I seriously doubt TEDBF would have reached the stage of design where they can present such a image, If it has reached that stage we would find more details of it in Defexpo next month. I remember reading somewhere that TEDBF would be unveiled only in AeroIndia 21

Anyone confirmed to attend Defexpo?

[Rakesh]

Good point Kakarat. It comes from Group Captain Thakur (retd) and he is not the type to post fanboy art. He also tweeted about the authenticity of the photo and I reproduced that tweet right above the photo.

[Rakesh]

Info on TEDBF. Please click on the link below and read the twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 76384?s=20

[Kakarat]

True. There is no question on credibility of Group Captain Thakur (retd). I too have been following him on twitter, but he has shied away from calling it the TEDBF, another point is TEDBF is a ADA design and Group Captain is from HAL so it could be one of the concepts of MWF.

If you remember in the past, Navy had been critical of converting a Air force design for deck operations so it has to be seen if they would accept this so I would wait for the official word.

[Indranil]

Info on TEDBF. Please click on the link below and read the twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 76384?s=20

Unfortunately, much of the information shared on that thread is speculative and/or wrong.

All we know officially is what the ADA chief shared with Ajai Shukla

“Using navy-specified technologies matured with the current Mark I, we are developing a twin-engine Mark 2 version, which we are calling the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TED-BF),” said Deodhare.

With the current Tejas’ single General Electric (GE) F-404 engine replaced by two, more powerful, GE F-414 engines, the TED-BF will be a far bigger and heavily armed fighter.

The current Tejas Mark 1 gets airborne with a total “all-up weight” (AUW) of 14 tonnes. The air force version of the Tejas Mark 2, which will have a single GE F-414 engine, will have an AUW of 17 tonnes. And the LCA Navy Mark 2 (or the TED-BF), powered by two GE F-414 engines, will have a beefy AUW of 24 tonnes, says Deodhare.

ADA is targeting 2025-26 for the first flight of the TED-BF. The navy wants the fighter to be inducted into service by 2031, to replace the MiG-29K/KUB that currently flies off INS Vikramaditya and will also serve on board the first indigenous aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, when it is commissioned in 2021.

and to Sriram

As a result, the IN leaned on ADA to develop a follow-on to the NLCA Mk1 design that would not entail such compromises and truly meet its requirements. For this purpose, Airbus (earlier EADS group) was roped in to provide design consultancy for what became the NLCA Mk2 project. However, the NLCA Mk2, a mockup of which was displayed at Aero India 2019, also failed to enthuse the IN and the service’s thoughts turned towards developing a navalized version of the AMCA. Nevertheless, it was felt by ADA that operational experience with a naval 4th generation fighter was very much needed before developing a next generation fighter for a naval environment. After several rounds of deliberations involving the IN and ADA it was mutually decided that the latter would instead develop a fourth-generation ‘plus’ twin-engine fighter, likely powered by the GE F-414 to meet the IN’s requirements. Thus, was born the TEDBF project.

Coming back to the TEDBF, it can be said that the design is not going to feature the LEVCONs seen on existing NLCA Mk1 prototypes as their use has been found to be sub-optimal. LEVCONs require large sized actuators to maintain a zero degrees position during level flight at high speeds. Besides, failure at such high speeds would result in an unmanageable pitch-up moment. Also, modelling airflow behaviour at extreme deflections was found to be troublesome. Instead, the TEDBF is likely to use vortex flaps. Indeed, the NLCA Mk2 mockup displayed at Aero India 2019 also featured vortex flaps instead of LEVCONs. In case of failure, ADA says vortex flaps will remain in a safer natural position and will not require large actuators as is the case with LEVCONs. As such, some Tejas test units may be fitted with fixed vortex flaps to gather data for informing the TEDBF design.

Actually, NAval Mk1 use the LEVcon as a vortex flap while landing right now. I don't know whether the TEDBF will have a horizontal tail plane or a close-coupled canard. In the latter case, vortex flaps will make no sense. The canard can be used to have a similar effect, just like it does on the Rafale. Also, with two engines and a lengthened fuselage, why not go for large LEX like in the F-18s, Mig-29ks, instead of another moving surface?

[Rakesh]

Fantastic info IR Saar. Updating first post of this thread now...

[Indranil]

Yaar, why the saar for me

[Rahul M]

Indranil, could we get an idea what the study for navalizing AMCA concluded?

[Indranil]

Indranil, could we get an idea what the study for navalizing AMCA concluded?

AFAIK, it is not concluded. May be Prasad can elaborate TEDBF is pretty much in preliminary design stage. 

I can make some educated guesses. If an AMCA is 25 tons. Navalizing it would increase its weight and then we would be at catch-22 with TO from skijump under own power.  On top of that having serpentine intakes is not optimal for VSTOL. Mig29k with the same TWR as the proposed TEDBF uses straight intakes and even lowers its lower lip for better pressure recovery in those flight regimes. Even with that, it can barely take off with 24 tons from the long runway. Single engine operations are even more restrictive. I think for these reasons they want to go for a clean sheet design utilizing whatever systems they can from AMCA and MWF. The aero they will test on NLCA Mk1.  This is probably the most mature decision that IN+ADA could have taken. But would MoD funds this for a Navy only project? Dassault knew how to make Rafale M better suited for carrier ops, but they did not go there to keep program costs lower. For example Rafale M doesn't have folding wings despite obvious advantages in carrier ops.

I wish TEDBF is funded with offshoots for IAF. The percentage threat for the next three decades is going to be 4.5 gen aircrafts, not 5th gen aircrafts. It's a good window for us to get to state-of-art in two incremental jumps

[JTull]

I think ORCA is a 4+ gen attempt by HAL to fill the gap between Mk2/MWF and AMCA, just like Mk1a is a HAL proposed gap filler. But I seriously doubt HAL's ability to put together an aero package that can compete with the skills at ADA.

[Picklu]

If we have the economic wherewithal then i love the approach of 'duplication of effort'; the only issue from my side would be a free flow of ideas to reduce the duplication to mere copy.

It is the duplication that creates true capability of "bench strength"

Just like what IPL is doing to Indian national cricket team.

[JayS]

Info on TEDBF. Please click on the link below and read the twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 76384?s=20

This is basically a copy-paste from idrw article.

Just a thought - Is HAL trying to usurp MWF design and create a TE design based on it to offer to IAF and possibly to IN separately..??

[kit]

So how many TEDBF can a 60k ton AC carry using a ski jump (assuming this to be the case) ? ., offhand it feels the TEDBF is more suited for an equally beefy nuclear 100,000 ton super AC with EMALS !

[Cybaru]

Info on TEDBF. Please click on the link below and read the twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 76384?s=20

This is basically a copy-paste from idrw article.

Just a thought - Is HAL trying to usurp MWF design and create a TE design based on it to offer to IAF and possibly to IN separately..??

More likely, HAL needed to do some estimating work on misc sizing and such and they produced the model to play with things till the final spec from ADA is ready.

photograph below is a coarse surface model, to estimate ball-park sizing, rough positioning, etc. Especially overall size, to fit into small spaces on deck and blast pens."

I also don't think IN/IAF is going to encourage HAL given their relationship and the state of IJT / AJT etc.
I do hope IN order more dhruv's / NLUH and NMRH from HAL soon.

[Indranil]

So how many TEDBF can a 60k ton AC carry using a ski jump (assuming this to be the case) ? ., offhand it feels the TEDBF is more suited for an equally beefy nuclear 100,000 ton super AC with EMALS !

Let's build a 60ton AC with skijump or any kind of catapult. Fill them with proper deck-based fighters. And then, we can think of super carriers with EMALS catapulting 5th gen aircrafts etc.

[karan_mc]

Info on TEDBF. Please click on the link below and read the twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/Aerodynamic111/stat ... 76384?s=20

Duffer copied an idrw article which is 100% speculative in nature and made into an Twitter thread . This YouTube Defence experts and Twitter OSNITS are more and more relying on idrw

[karan_mc]

So how many TEDBF can a 60k ton AC carry using a ski jump (assuming this to be the case) ? ., offhand it feels the TEDBF is more suited for an equally beefy nuclear 100,000 ton super AC with EMALS !

Vikramaditya can carry 24 Mig-29K, Since TEDBF is in same league as Mig-29k then on Vishal maybe max 34-35

[Philip]

The US is seriously worried about the survivability of its CVs in the current environment of new anti-ship missiles.A recent report was doubtful that its CVs could survive saturation missile attacks from China ranges even in the second island chain ( Guam) and the Bay of Bengal(!). While we look for a better carrier fighter for the late '20s and next decade,the increasing vulnerability of large carriers is increasingly coming into Q. Numbers do matter and as suggested earlier, our planned amphibs of med. size should also be able to operate naval strike aircraft used on our exg. CVs, with larger lifts to operate better birds in the future. This way we could operate 4 to 5 flat tops instead of 2 or 3 for the same cost.

The speed with which a desi twin-engined bird entering service is debatable for two reasons.One, funding.Two, our track record in developing,testing and production of the LCA.Unless pvt. industry is welcomed and encouraged to participate and compete with the DPSUs, our results will take the usual time.

[hemant_sai]

[/quote]
Actually, NAval Mk1 use the LEVcon as a vortex flap while landing right now. I don't know whether the TEDBF will have a horizontal tail plane or a close-coupled canard. In the latter case, vortex flaps will make no sense. The canard can be used to have a similar effect, just like it does on the Rafale. Also, with two engines and a lengthened fuselage, why not go for large LEX like in the F-18s, Mig-29ks, instead of another moving surface?[/quote]



https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8ypjZ ... FbmQ4/view

[Rsatchi]

The US is seriously worried about the survivability of its CVs in the current environment of new anti-ship missiles.A recent report was doubtful that its CVs could survive saturation missile attacks from China ranges even in the second island chain ( Guam) and the Bay of Bengal(!). While we look for a better carrier fighter for the late '20s and next decade,the increasing vulnerability of large carriers is increasingly coming into Q. Numbers do matter and as suggested earlier, our planned amphibs of med. size should also be able to operate naval strike aircraft used on our exg. CVs, with larger lifts to operate better birds in the future. This way we could operate 4 to 5 flat tops instead of 2 or 3 for the same cost.

The speed with which a desi twin-engined bird entering service is debatable for two reasons.One, funding.Two, our track record in developing,testing and production of the LCA.Unless pvt. industry is welcomed and encouraged to participate and compete with the DPSUs, our results will take the usual time.

Philipji
If the khan move on CV's is worrying then why are we fixated on 60K, 100K etc.
We should negotiate with Seychelles, Mauritius(port Mathurin), and with Lakshadweep and Nicobar islands we can cover almost all of the indian ocean with land based/submarine assets
We should churn out 4-5 Vishal types and these could traverse/based around these points.
Poseidon's could cover the sunken lizards in these waters and who knows Khan may do joint patrols!!!
I know sounds far fetched but we have to think out of box and not be fixated to conventional doctrines

[Dileep]

Let me recall some stuff we went through, like 25 years ago.

My career is as old as the company I work for. We started off as a contract mfr, and concurrent engg partner for some technology no one hadn't heard here in desh. After like four years of working, yours truly started thinking "I could do that!" and decided to move into that field.

It did not take too long to figure that it ain't easy. If we didn't have a very sympathetic, supporting, handholding customer (reasons better not talked about) we couldn't have made squat. Even today, with all the silver lining of hair etc, situation is the same. There is no shortcut to master a technology from manufacturing. The best you can hope for is, your long career reminds you of all the mistakes that you are going to commit before you actually figure something.

HAL can't do squat on this ORCA (youknoe, the CA part I mean), unless ADA (and a few other key players) made to contributes their secret sauces.The problem is, HAL apparently do not know how to "ask nicely"

Of course, I am standing on the side of the fence facing ADA onlee.

[ashishvikas]

If Developed, This Futuristic Tejas Variant Could Match IAF's Rafale Jets

-by Vishnu Som

(Few animated images will surely make you happy)

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/if-deve ... ssion=true

All credit to NDTV & Vishnu Som.

[sankum]

Thanks ashishvikas.
The TEDBF will cost $76m per unit and airforce variant will cost 5 to 10 million dollar less and development cost is $1.8 billion dollar.
The total number of weapon station is 13 nos with one front side weapon station on fuselage dedicated to LDP and interestingly other 3 side weapon stations on fuselage show SFDR AAM carried in tandem.

[nam]

Looks like we have found our F35 program.. MK1A, MWF, OCRA, TEDBF, AMCA.

Different skin and size, but the same basic tech under the skin.

[ashishvikas]

If Developed, This Futuristic Tejas Variant Could Match IAF's Rafale Jets

-by Vishnu Som

(Few animated images will surely make you happy)

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/if-deve ... ssion=true

All credit to NDTV & Vishnu Som.

I tried to share the images.. but not getting it correctly. Someone please upload it again.

Vishnu shared few more images
https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 55424?s=20
https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 51361?s=20

I'm in love with those images

@rakesh - you think these deserve in page1 ?

[Kakarat]

So ORCA is TEDBF, I never expected to see this so soon.

[sankum]

DSI intakes. Same intakes to MWF can be expected.

[sankum]

On carrier picture is also there. Scroll left right after clicking on twitter picture. All pictures should be on page 1. 3 pictures left. Total 7 pictures

[Bharadwaj]

This aircraft could be the answer both in terms of numbers and capability but but but.....MMRCA 2.0 and the naval import will likely eat the resources required

[LakshmanPST]

Article by Vishnu Som. Has some details:-
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/if-deve ... ssion=true

New Delhi: In twelve years from now, a twin engine variant of India's Tejas fighter could start replacing Russian built MiG-29K jets deployed on board the Indian Navy's aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and Vikrant which is yet to be inducted.
Detailed concept drawings of the fighter, dubbed the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), accessed by NDTV, are being studied by the Aeronautical Design Agency (ADA) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) which would eventually build the fighters if their development is funded by the government. What's more, the design of an Air Force variant of the jet, the Omni Role Combat Aircraft (ORCA), with significant design differences, is also being studied. This variant would weigh a ton less than the Naval variant since it would not need heavy reinforced landing gear required for operations from the deck of an aircraft carrier.

Sources close to the project have told NDTV that the total design and development costs for prototypes of the aircraft ''would cost less than the Rs.12,780 crore India Specific Enhancement package'' signed between India and France towards customising 36 Rafale fighters being inducted into the Indian Air Force.

''The total design and development costs for twin engine variants of the Tejas fighter would cost less than Rs.13,000 crores with each fighter for the Navy costing in the range of Rs. 538 crores.'' The Indian Air Force variant of the fighter would cost between Rs 35 crore and Rs.71 crores less than the Navy variant. The development time-scale for the project has been pegged at six years from the time initial funding has been provided.

Prototype of Twin Engine Tejas variant could be completed in six years of project funding.

Project designers say they could ''very comfortably develop'' the new twin engine Tejas variant based on the experience they have gained in testing the Naval prototype of the Tejas fighter. This prototype is expected to land on the deck of India's aircraft carrier, INS Vikramaditya, for the first time within the next few weeks. The prototype is powered by a single US-built General Electric F404-GE-IN20 turbofan engine which is not seen to be powerful enough to justify serial manufacture of a Naval Tejas in its present avatar other than in very limited numbers. The significantly larger twin engine Tejas now being proposed would be fitted with two more powerful General Electric F414 engines and would have a significantly higher weapons payload and range. The additional thrust provided by two engines would also guarantee a larger safety margin for pilots while taking off and landing in hot and humid tropical weather conditions out at sea in the Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal.

Single-engine Navy Tejas prototype being tested will land on INS Vikramaditya soon.

Weighing 23 tonnes, the Navy Twin Engine Deck Based fighter would be significantly larger than the 13.5 ton Tejas Mk-1 fighter which has entered squadron service with the Indian Air Force and the 17.5 ton Tejas Mk-2 which is meant to be inducted into the Indian Air Force from 2030. The fighter would be in the size of the MiG-29K currently being operated by the Indian Navy on its aircraft carrier, the INS Vikramaditya and would have the ability of carrying a weapons payload of nine tonnes. It would feature folding wings to save space on the deck of aircraft carriers. The jet would likely have a top speed in the range of Mach 1.6 or just under 2,000 kilometres per hour.

The twin engine Tejas variant would have a top speed of Mach 1.6 and carry a nine tonne weapons payload.

Both the Navy Twin Engine Deck Based fighter and the Air Force Omni Role Fighter would host several indigenous sensors and avionics which are now at an advanced stage of development. This includes an Active Electronically Scanned Radar (AESA) which can simultaneously track targets in the air and out at sea or over land with great precision. All the fighters would be built with made in India data links and communication systems which would enable the jets in a formation to securely exchange critical sensor information during a mission. A host of made-in-India weapons including long range variant of the Astra air to air missile which has recently completed tests would arm the jets.

The futuristic Tejas variants would be armed with weapons including the indigenous Astra air-to-air missile.

Project designers point out that none of the future variants of the Tejas now being studied are a part of the Navy or Air Force's present procurement plans. ''More than 750 aircraft will need replacement between 2030 and 2050.'' By 2040, several older aircraft in service with the Indian Air Force, including the Sukhoi 30MKI, presently the cutting edge, would need to retire. Development of a larger, twin engine variant of the Tejas, designers feel, is an incremental step forward as they simultaneously proceed with the design and development of a made-in-India stealth fighter called the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), both larger, more capable and more expensive than variants of the Tejas. The AMCA is expected to start entering squadron service with the IAF from 2040 if funding is secured.

''A twin engine variant of the Tejas would be in the class of the Rafale, extremely nimble with excellent sensor fusion,'' say designers working on the plans for the futuristic fighter. ''The jet would be extremely nimble with excellent sensor fusion. The fact that this would be entirely designed and developed in India would be a huge boost for our ambitions in being an aerospace power.''

[chola]

So ORCA is TEDBF, I never expected to see this so soon.

Beautiful!

[Rakesh]

@rakesh - you think these deserve in page1 ?

Yes indeed. I will be posting these pictures in page 1 of this thread. Hope you do not mind, but I will be removing all the pictures that you and Kakarat posted. Just want to avoid duplication. Will provide acknowledgement. Thank You.

So ORCA is TEDBF, I never expected to see this so soon]

Neither did I. This confirms Group Captain HV Thakur's photo as well.

[Rakesh]

DSI intakes. Same intakes to MWF can be expected.

Saar, please provide full acronyms to newbies who are silent lukers on BRF....

DSI (Diverterless Supersonic Inlet) ===> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diverterl ... onic_inlet

[Rakesh]

Article by Vishnu Som. Has some details:-
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/if-deve ... ssion=true

Added a few details from this article in page 1 of this thread. Thank You.

[Rakesh]

Somebody PLEASE ask the MoD to cancel the 57 carrier based fighter program!

Why do we need F-18 or Rafale M, when this beauty is coming?

Induct Tejas Mk1s as test platforms and use them for the next decade or so, till the TEDBF comes out.

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 9017033728 ---> In twelve years from now, a twin engine variant of India's Tejas fighter, dubbed the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF), could start replacing Russian built MiG29K jets on board the Indian Navy's aircraft carriers INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant, which is yet to be inducted.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1212907379261497344 ---> Indigenous fighter projects are equally important & all are being pursued in tandem with DRDO, PSUs, Private majors & Start-Ups. MoD & SHQs are in support. Funds are available. Domestic military aerospace had taken two steps back for the big heave. Our moment in the sun is here.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1213764298092113920 ---> Very interesting @VishnuNDTV. Very interesting indeed. Stormy weather and yet, why does the future of Naval LCA seem brilliant? Rise...

[Rakesh]

The one thing I have noticed from all these renderings and from the comments from HVT Sir (& others), is that Rafale is the benchmark.

The TEDBF is called the ORCA - Omni Role Combat Aircraft. A marketing term that is used by Dassault to describe the Rafale.

HVT Sir made this tweet during the recent MiG-27 retirement in the Indian Air Force ---> Good bye to the last swing winger and make way for Delta. HVT Sir also said that for the IAF, the F-18 is a BIG no.

In Vishnu Som's article...he quotes designers who state ---> "A twin engine variant of the Tejas would be in the class of the Rafale, extremely nimble with excellent sensor fusion."

Agility & Sensor Fusion is key for the IAF. It appears Rafale is the desired platform in MRCA 2.0

[Zynda]

INS Vikrant will be operational by 2022. I'd add an additional 3 years to the published time lines at least for TEDBF service...round it to 2035. The current 50+ MiG-29K can be carried on both carriers but is IN Ok with that arrangement. Considering the issues IN is a facing with MiGs, I am sure they would desire a replacement ASAP and not wait till 2035.

But, Rafale M or F-18 SH both will be expensive purchases...

TEDBF should be pursued...no doubt about it. But I do hope that an agency outside of ADA will take the lead. I'd prefer ADA with its limited human resources focus on MWF & AMCA. ADA could be nominated as prime consultant to guide the lead integrator.

[abhik]

Sources close to the project have told NDTV that the total design and development costs for prototypes of the aircraft ''would cost less than the Rs.12,780 crore India Specific Enhancement package'' signed between India and France towards customising 36 Rafale fighters being inducted into the Indian Air Force.

This is just depressing to read , I has made the same/similar point else where earlier.

The AMCA is expected to start entering squadron service with the IAF from 2040 if funding is secured.

I see there is still an IF involved.