Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

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Kartik
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Kartik »

nachiket wrote:
Kartik wrote: It's pretty obvious that the IAF will not take a Navy optimized TEDBF as is without changes to the landing gear and folding wings. It does not suit their operational requirements to have a fighter that is heavier than it needs to be for land based use, and restricted from 9G due to wing folding that they don't need.

Rest of the strengthening of the structures to absorb and transfer the arresting hook loads may not be completely optimized, since all we'll get is a sturdier ORCA. But then again, sturdier than what it needs to be based on IAF's operational requirements is not necessarily good. Any extra kgs of weight the ORCA carries is less fuel/payload that it could've carried instead.
All of these issues exist on the Super Hornet as well. Yet the IAF did not outright reject it. They went ahead with full flight evals etc. ADA website says TEDBF MTOW is envisaged to be 26 tonnes. Nearly 4 tonnes less than the SH with the same amount of thrust available. Not sure of the empty weight, but it should be less than the SH too I guess. This should enable IAF's unique requirements like being able to take off from Leh with usable payload to be met.

Changing the wings to be non-folding so that the 8G restriction is removed might be relatively simple, but redesigning the entire landing gear assembly and lightening the airframe won't be. If you have a few years to work with, yes you can most certainly do all that and build a kinematically superior fighter. But the TEDBF itself will not be ready before mid-2030's. So you need yet another parallel program for the ORCA. The IAF might as well just wait for the AMCA at that point.
Yes the IAF evaluated it and found the Super Hornet to be the least attractive of all the MMRCA participants when it came to it's flight performance.

The Super Hornet lugs around a LOT of extra weight from it's naval design that is completely not required for a land lubber. I've seen the Super Hornet's landing gear up close and it's massive to say the least. Not in the least bit optimized for land use. Comparatively the F-15's landing gear looks positively spindly, even though they can bring back quite similar payloads. Because the F-15 pilot doesn't have to "controlled crash" the F-15 onto a small strip of land, so the sink rates don't have to be so high and the landing gear and structures can be much lighter and weaker as a result.

If you read up on the F-18L, you'd see how much of an improvement that fighter offered over the F/A-18 A/B. However, no Air Force was interested in spending the amount required to make those changes and get it qualified so it stayed the way it was and the RAAF, RCAF, Swiss and other Air Forces accepted it the way it was.

With our engineering costs, it will be a lot more affordable to do those changes. Albeit, the IAF needs to be onboard as soon as possible, so this "modularity" of sorts is considered from the beginning.

If ADA expects the TEDBF MTOW to be 4 tonnes less than the Super Hornet while having similar engines, there will be correspondingly less fuel or payload than the Super Hornet. Or lower bring back load. TEDBF is being designed primarily for Air to Air and Air to Ship missions, rather than as a land attack fighter. Again, the Indian Navy's requirements are different from those of the USN, hence different MTOWs possibly.

I believe it is the landing gear re-design that is the easier task than having to redesign and qualify a wing without the wing folding mechanism and the hinge. The landing gear simply has to be lighter, the attachment points don't need to modified or changed. The paths for the loads to the transferred to the structure don't have to be changed. It is basically a lot easier to do it from a naval fighter to a land based fighter. It's essentially reducing the strength and correspondingly the gauge and thickness of the structures that absorb the landing and arresting forces.

But the re-design of the spars and ribs for the non-folding wing may be more effort and time consuming. Again, doable for sure and our engineering costs will not be anywhere near those of Western OEMs. But it will require separate tooling for producing those spars for the ORCA than for the TEDBF. It will mean higher costs since the supplier that supplies TEBDF wings will need to do it differently for ORCA.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

No idea if this was spotted earlier and what the situ is now. Anyway,it won't have any effect on the TEDBF meant to replace/augment the 29Ks from 2030 onwards.By that time one is certain that a +ve decision about the 3rd. CV would've been taken which would require at least 40+ fighters if it is 65K t.

https://dfnc.ru/en/expert-opinion/india ... intenance/

On February 3, 2021, the first day of Aero India 2021, Vladimir Drozhzhov, Deputy Head of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) said that Russia has responded to a preliminary request from India for additional MiG-29K/KUB fighters.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

This is probably for having enough fighters for the 2 carriers once Vikrant gets inducted plus some for shore based deployments. Hence the third squadron. The IN also needs attrition replacements for the ones that have crashed. TEDBF won't be available for more than a decade. It will be used to replace the 29K's once it is ready.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

IN will be thinking about upgrades to Mig-29Ks. These 'attrition replacements' maybe a good way to try out small changes to improve their maintainability and sharpen their claws. Russians will also be keen to push back TEDBF challenge as long as possible.

I fully expect some of learnings from NLCA to also make their way into Mig-29K (of course, without any acknowledgement of desi IPR).
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Maria »

JTull wrote:IN will be thinking about upgrades to Mig-29Ks. These 'attrition replacements' maybe a good way to try out small changes to improve their maintainability and sharpen their claws. Russians will also be keen to push back TEDBF challenge as long as possible.

I fully expect some of learnings from NLCA to also make their way into Mig-29K (of course, without any acknowledgement of desi IPR).
If Indian IPR goes into modifications of the Mig, wouldn't it also land up with the Russians? Will they reduce the price for their product?
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Cybaru »

Empty weight of TEDBF is also much lower. More like Rafale vs FA18EF. If they manage around 7 tons of 6-7 tons of internal fuel, it will have pretty decent range and reach. Weapons are getting longer reach as well.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/warplane_*****/statu ... 12204?s=20 ---> Similarities between Rafale and TEDBF (Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter) of India, expected production in 2030.

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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

There are only so many ways to skin a cat...
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by basant »

Rafale is a copy of Mirage 4000.

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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14027 ... 20386?s=20 --->

Having built the foundation for a 100-story sky scraper, we aren't going to stop at the first floor...

The whole world knows, we've cracked it. The future belongs to us.

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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

As per this video, the contest for the Rafale M or F-18SH is over in favour of TEDBF.

I have not read this news anywhere else. So need confirmation.

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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »



The ADA has finalized the configuration of the TEDBF.
Kartik
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Confirmed by the Navy Chief that Preliminary (Design?) Work on the TEDBF has started at ADA with the IN supporting.

First flight targeted for - 2026
Roll out of production variant - 2031
IOC achieved by - ?

I hope the Navy is more pragmatic than the IAF and goes in for inductions with key capabilities developed by IOC.

Twitter link
Great news on TEDBFDouble exclamation mark

Excerpts from our interview with Admiral R Hari Kumar, Chief of Naval Staff, Indian Navy

Preliminary work for development of the Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF) has begun at ADA with support from Indian Navy. The Project is being monitored by the Naval Project Office at Bengaluru, which was initially set up to coordinate the LCA (N) project. The aircraft is planned to undertake its first flight by year 2026 and roll out the production variant by year 2031.
Last edited by ramana on 12 Jan 2022 04:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added bold ramana
Rakesh
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Just in time for the MiG-29K replacement. Very nice.

I hope wiser minds prevail and the naval fighter contest is cancelled.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Given our experiences in aircraft design till date. I will not be surprised, if, the first production ready aircraft is the FOC standard it self.

However, the BRF pet peeve will remain. Lack of visible efforts for a domestic engine program.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Barath »

Rakesh wrote:As per this video, the contest for the Rafale M or F-18SH is over in favour of TEDBF. I have not read this news anywhere else. So need confirmation....
I hope wiser minds prevail and the naval fighter contest is cancelled
News here is relevant - follow the link for more
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&p=2528914#p2528914
the MRCBF is now anticipated to be a stop-gap, with expectations that the India’s indigenous Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) would take-off by 2026 to be inducted by 2032.
It would depend upon issues encountered in testing, integration and enlarging the envelope, so 2032 is optimistic/idealistic, but it does seem to be nominal expectation
Last edited by Barath on 01 Jan 2022 22:27, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Kartik wrote:Confirmed by the Navy Chief that Preliminary (Design?) Work on the TEDBF has started at ADA with the IN supporting.

First flight targeted for - 2026
Roll out of production variant - 2031
IOC achieved by - ?
IOC is reasonable for the second half of the 2030s or closer to 2040 if they run into development or testing issues. Developing, integrating and testing a naval fighter takes longer than a land based aircraft.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by hemant_sai »



It is an eye opener.

I wish we get Mao sir back to be part of the mission to deliver TEDBF.

It is not only about platforms that we need but we do need right people and plenty of them.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by konaseema »

Thanks for posting the video. I was watching it earlier in the day. The biggest learning for me was the acceptance from Mao sir how requirements were put together. Our heartburn on many other projects have been the same and as he explains, a bunch of amateur's pulling the best specs from different aircrafts has lead to failures and how they understood that LCA-N is a different animal altogether, compared to its Airforce sibling. As our platforms mature, we are seeing the acceptance of such mistakes and the specs of the 2nd generation systems are much more reasonable. I think this decade is the make or break for all our indigenous systems and let us hope we are successful.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by KSingh »

Eye opening for sure especially as he highlights how ignorant they were prior to N-LCA, imagine that some actually consider the N-LCA a failure. It has provided immense learning opportunities for which any future aerospace project in India will benefit. There are actually clowns that call for the scrapping of LCA, MK.2, TEDBF etc and jumping straight to AMCA

Can understand why ADA is optimistic about TEDBF timelines, they are much much better prepared now they just need the budget and support from the top.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Kartik »

brar_w wrote:
Kartik wrote:Confirmed by the Navy Chief that Preliminary (Design?) Work on the TEDBF has started at ADA with the IN supporting.

First flight targeted for - 2026
Roll out of production variant - 2031
IOC achieved by - ?
IOC is reasonable for the second half of the 2030s or closer to 2040 if they run into development or testing issues. Developing, integrating and testing a naval fighter takes longer than a land based aircraft.
The work done on the LCA Navy Mk1 has de-risked quite a bit of the schedule that one would normally associate with a naval fighter program, especially for a first timer like HAL was with LCA Navy Mk1. The FCS, the arrestor hook, the structures related testing, all those were core navy specific areas that had to be done for the first time with the LCA Navy Mk1. Now the same teams will be working on the TEDBF and the experience built up will be crucial in cutting down the development and testing time.

Much of the avionics will retain a high degree of commonality with Tejas Mk2 to cut down on development and testing time. There will obviously be quite a bit that is unique to TEDBF and AMCA given their twin engine layout, but I would expect IOC within 5-6 years of first flight. HAL, ADA and DRDO labs are not going to be doing this for the first time anymore. That would imply IOC by ~2032-2033 and FOC 2-3 years later. So I'm a little more optimistic that by 2035-2036 we may see a TEDBF at FOC in service with the Navy.

I would suggest you do view this excellent interview with the peerless Test pilot Cmde Jaideep Maolankar. He really does give a good idea about how much was learnt on the LCA Navy Mk1 program that will stand the TEDBF team a lot of good.

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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Cyrano »

OMG ! Mao Sir Ji throws fistfuls of pearls of wisdom in every response in this hour long interview. He really thinks in an "integrated" way man - layers upon layers of knowledge, experiences, observations, multiple PoVs, analysis, what-ifs : A naval test pilot has to be as accomplished, level headed and diligent as an astronaut, perhaps more. How lucky India is to have giants like this, and how lucky Mao is, to be in the right place at the right time to experience all of this. And hats off to the IN staff and HAL, ADA, NAL, DRDO & contributing engineers & personnel.

Hope watching this discussion helps forumites to engage in insightful conversations on N-LCA & TEDBF in the future...

Thanks to Tarmak for this interview - though he seemed to not fully get the import of what Mao was saying at times, he stuck to his well prepared set of questions and moved on through the topics. Another lesson there...
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Kartik wrote:The work done on the LCA Navy Mk1 has de-risked quite a bit of the schedule that one would normally associate with a naval fighter program
That's all great. But I still stand by my opinion regardless of all the great work done on the LCA Navy. Had the LCA Navy been operational and they had tens of thousands of operational hours with it, I'd still hold this schedule. Same if someone else with experience of operational naval fighters (like Dassault, Boeing, or LM) were doing it. New clean sheet naval fighters take time and involve more risk than their land based counterparts. They also have more test points and extended at sea testing with multiple on ship deployments that must be coordinated to ensure it is fully debugged, and integrated. Given how much of a deviation TEDBF is from the LCA Navy, it is reasonable to expect it operationally (like the first operationally fielded squadron) in the 2035-2040 timeframe.Will be happy to be proven wrong.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by pushkar.bhat »

I also follow PR Ganapathy's Blueskies Podcast. Cmde. Mao specifically did a episode leading up to the start of his engagement with LCA Navy. You can hear it on



Later this month we are promised the second part of the interview where he will go into the details of the flight testing regime. I for one am waiting for it.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

kartik, Will you agree to be SME for TEDBF. The go-to person when we have doubts?
ramana
For starters would like a summary post that captures all we know in 3000 words or less.
I want you to address risks and how to mitigate them.
You can choose anyone for your team.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

TEDBF: The Future of Indian Naval Aviation
https://airpowerasia.com/2022/01/19/ted ... -aviation/
19 Jan 2022
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The LCA NP 5 is completed.

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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by arunsrinivasan »

How is NP-5 different from NP-1/2 & how will it help with TEDBF development?
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Raghuna86681990/sta ... ucSfg1w1AA ---> Presenting you the TEDBF.

https://twitter.com/Raghuna86681990/sta ... sforL9AmKA ---> The payload: 5 x Astra Mk3, 4 x Astra Mk2, 1 underbelly fuel tank and 2 hypothetical Indian version of SCALP.

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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Samay »

You can presume that deck based fighter procurement has been cancelled or severly curtailed to 20- 30 aircrafts, that too till 2030
Should see the news after an year or so ?
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Kartik »

ramana wrote:kartik, Will you agree to be SME for TEDBF. The go-to person when we have doubts?
ramana
For starters would like a summary post that captures all we know in 3000 words or less.
I want you to address risks and how to mitigate them.
You can choose anyone for your team.
Ramana sir, am extremely sorry I didn't see this post of yours till today! :-?

I will try to capture whatever I know of the TEDBF and it's predecessor naval fighter programs. There are a few very knowledgeable folks whom I will try to contact if some details need to be clarified.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Thanks for helping. We need our own experts.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I wonder what the combat load would be, when deployed from land, or even CATOBAR ships.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

26 ton AUW? I'm guessing that is a typo and it is actually the MTOW. It would approach the MKI's weight otherwise.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

nachiket wrote:26 ton AUW? I'm guessing that is a typo and it is actually the MTOW. It would approach the MKI's weight otherwise.
Page 1 of this thread also states 26 ton AUW. Let me look for an info chart...
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Picture courtesy of https://www.defenceview.in/ , but it is from ADA. So official...

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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

^^ Yeah here it says MTOW which makes more sense. Perhaps they use MTOW and AUW interchangeably.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Wiki Chacha says
The aircraft gross weight (also known as the all-up weight and abbreviated AUW) is the total aircraft weight at any moment during the flight or ground operation.

An aircraft's gross weight will decrease during a flight due to fuel and oil consumption. An aircraft's gross weight may also vary during a flight due to payload dropping or in-flight refuelling.

At the moment of releasing its brakes, the gross weight of an aircraft is equal to its takeoff weight. During flight, an aircraft's gross weight is referred to as the en-route weight or in-flight weight.
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Re: Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

First flight in 6-7 years & induction in 9 years! Those are seriously aggressive timelines for a brand new aircraft. With the ADA/HAL busy with Tejas Mk1a, Mk2 & AMCA, hope they will be able to meet this.
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