CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

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Rakesh
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

chetak wrote:Sirji,

just asking onlee....

wasn't the CoSC slot discontinued after the creation of the CDS....

Maybe it's an indication of things to come
Exactly my thoughts. I am surprised.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
chetak wrote:Sirji,

just asking onlee....

wasn't the CoSC slot discontinued after the creation of the CDS....

Maybe it's an indication of things to come
Exactly my thoughts. I am surprised.

or have the babooze struck while the system is still a bit disoriented :)
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Kakarat »

Rakesh wrote:
chetak wrote:Sirji,

just asking onlee....

wasn't the CoSC slot discontinued after the creation of the CDS....

Maybe it's an indication of things to come
Exactly my thoughts. I am surprised.
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 95925.html
Important issues related to the armed forces are handled by this committee. With the creation of the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) in December 2019, General Rawat as the CDS had become the first permanent CoSC. CDS is the fourth and permanent member of the CoSC.

The old practice entailed that the senior-most officer among the three services was taking over as the Chairman, CoSC. “The Armed Forces have a clear line of command and role for every position to remove any ambiguity. Since there is no name announced for the post of CDS, this is just a stopgap arrangement.” sources in the defence establishment said.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

chetak wrote:or have the babooze struck while the system is still a bit disoriented :)
:lol:

@ Kakarat, I read that part in the article.

1) If they are going to announce a CDS this week or even next, what role would General Naravane serve as Chairman, COSC?

2) If General Naravane will be appointed as the next CDS, is this appointment meant as a precursor to that?

3) If another officer will be appointed as the next CDS, will General Naravane continue as Chairman, COSC?

Perhaps Ramana-ji can clarify.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Looks like Govt needs more time.
Without CoSc the coordination would be ad hoc.
The DyCDS is an LtGen level and in status bound Delhi would cause holding back.
Gen Rawat death exposed this hole.
Earlier he was CoSC and CDS.
Recall I said need to look at org chart in last page.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Looks like Govt needs more time.
Without CoSc the coordination would be ad hoc.
The DyCDS is an LtGen level and in status bound Delhi would cause holding back.
Gen Rawat death exposed this hole.
Earlier he was CoSC and CDS.
Recall I said need to look at org chart in last page.
Ramana-ji, thank you for that clarity. Makes better sense now.

Perhaps it is time to elevate the Deputy CDS post to that of a General/Air Chief Marshal/Admiral rank.

In terms of seniority, he would be junior to the CDS but would hold the same rank. Just like how the Corps Commander holds the rank of Lt Gen, but the C-in-C of an Army Command while also a Lt Gen is senior to the Corps Commander. That is my reasoning. I could very well be wrong.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Or need a rule to say senior most becomes acting CDS till new appointment
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by VinodTK »



The Defenders: Theatre Command | 18 December, 2021
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

What is holding up the appointment of India’s second CDS?
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-12-27
27 Dec 2021
The process, says Vice-Admiral Pradeep Kaushiva, is complex and the determinants, though mostly intangible and indefinable, are vital contributors.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Theatre commands the next logical step: Chief of Naval Staff Admiral R. Hari Kumar
https://www.theweek.in/theweek/current/ ... kumar.html
09 Jan 2022
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Sandeep, How could you even ask that stupid question?
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Ramana-ji, media houses are looking to increase their viewership. Thus sensationalism is the name of the game now.

CDS Bipin Rawat’s successor ‘unlikely to be named soon’
https://theprint.in/defence/cds-bipin-r ... on/798913/
09 Jan 2022
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by sivab »

X-Post from the Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments thread ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5094&p=2530139#p2530139

Will be a fitting tribute to Gen. Rawat, if this come to fruition. What a loss for India.
sivab wrote:Modi government to shelve multiple defence import projects to promote Make in India
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10 Jan 2022
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by AkshaySG »

Rakesh wrote:Ramana-ji, media houses are looking to increase their viewership. Thus sensationalism is the name of the game now.

CDS Bipin Rawat’s successor ‘unlikely to be named soon’
https://theprint.in/defence/cds-bipin-r ... on/798913/
09 Jan 2022
Looks like Lt Gen YK Joshi is about to retire at the end of this month

I always thought he'd be the COAS one day but it seems the dates didn't line up.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

under the circumstances, don't really have the heart to say it.....

wish that the circumstances were very different.

The Padma Vibhushan is more than well deserved

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/14 ... 35049?s=20 --->
@ShivAroor·33m

JUST IN: Posthumous Padma Vibhushan announced for General Bipin Rawat
Image
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Ankit Desai »

9 tri-services commanders discuss maritime theater command's creation
A total of nine commanders-in-chief from the Indian Army, Navy and Air Force took part in a high-level meeting to discuss and deliberate on various aspects related to setting up of the integrated maritime theater command in Mumbai, informed ministry of defense on Friday.
-Ankit
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

should the appointment of the new CDS take this long......

or are we gradually and quietly going to slip back to the days when there was no CDS
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Announcement will likely be in April when General Naravane is due to retire. Lt Gen Manoj Pande is rumoured to be the next Army Chief and General Naravane the next CDS. The reason for the delay is the GOI does not want to change the promotion cycle. Let’s see.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:Announcement will likely be in April when General Naravane is due to retire. Lt Gen Manoj Pande is rumoured to be the next Army Chief and General Naravane the next CDS. The reason for the delay is the GOI does not want to change the promotion cycle. Let’s see.
From the shadows, many affected lobbies are trying to hobble/scuttle the CDS.

Gen Rawat's larger than life image and his vision seem to have scared many players, both on and off shore.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Rakesh wrote:Announcement will likely be in April when General Naravane is due to retire. Lt Gen Manoj Pande is rumoured to be the next Army Chief and General Naravane the next CDS. The reason for the delay is the GOI does not want to change the promotion cycle. Let’s see.
@OsintUpdates:

General MM Naravane will become the new CDS of the Indian Armed Forces: Sources
https://twitter.com/OsintUpdates/status ... 3h2cA&s=19
_____________________

Army Lieutenant General Manoj Pande is all set to become Chief of the Army Staff with incumbent Army Chief General M M Naravane, seen as the frontrunner for the Chief of Defence Staff's post, due to retire by the end of this month .

https://twitter.com/OsintUpdates/status ... _AsAA&s=19
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Round and round the merry go round we go.

Both serving, retired officers may be considered for CDS post
https://t.co/DClAtd54Ub
17 April 2022
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Atmavik »

Rakesh wrote:Round and round the merry go round we go.

Both serving, retired officers may be considered for CDS post
https://t.co/DClAtd54Ub
17 April 2022
I think this is another trial balloon, I have observed a pattern where the Lutyens gang has no idea what Namo is going to do but they keep publishing such articles to muddy the waters.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

Atmavik wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Round and round the merry go round we go.

Both serving, retired officers may be considered for CDS post
https://t.co/DClAtd54Ub
17 April 2022
I think this is another trial balloon, I have observed a pattern where the Lutyens gang has no idea what Namo is going to do but they keep publishing such articles to muddy the waters.
Unfortunately NaMo govt has failed here and done a disservice to the armed forces by waiting so long to announce CDS. Optics matter hugely.
Notwithstanding Gen Rawat and his achievements if post is that important then successor should have been announced within a couple of weeks at most
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by nandakumar »

I think the Government wants Gen Naravne to hold the post for 3 years and also till he attains 65 years of age. If he joins early he would continue for 3 years but not till 65 years as the terms of appointment clearly mentioned that CDS will hold office till such time one of the two conditions get triggered.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

nandakumar wrote:I think the Government wants Gen Naravne to hold the post for 3 years and also till he attains 65 years of age. If he joins early he would continue for 3 years but not till 65 years as the terms of appointment clearly mentioned that CDS will hold office till such time one of the two conditions get triggered.
Does it matter more than sending a message to the services and the bureaucracy that the govt is serious about the CDS post?
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by nandakumar »

ks_sachin
I am a lay person in these matters. In my years in the corporate world and later as a journalist reporting on corporate matters, I have learnt that successors are identified and groomed from well before their time actually comes. Of course there are no guarantees in these matters. But still..... I thought likewise in armed forces too, there is succession planning a fact that became obvious at the time of General VK Singh's age controversy. It was rumoured in the the Delhi Media at that time that the 'Chandigarh Lobby' was upset that its positioning of key officers would all come to nought if Gen V.K. Singh was allowed to restate his date of birth and get an extended tenure as CoAS. It was my educated guess that the appointment of a successor to the late General Bipin Rawat ahead of the time it was due would in someway upset the career progression to CDS appointment and more importantly the inter service balance in the post of CDS going into the future. That was all.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by jaysimha »

it is hypothetical to state.
I feel Gen Navarane may not ( want to) become CDS.

In this regard, I think this news article popped up.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 893863.cms
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by uddu »

If the Govt waited, then Naval chief becoming CDS is a possibility.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

It was expected that General Bipin Rawat would complete his three year tenure as CDS and a successor would have been chosen prior to his retirement in 2023. Obviously that did not happen. This resulted in a vacuum that the GOI is likely finding hard to fill. The vacuum is not in lack of experience or leadership, but rather in another General Rawat type. He empathized with the services' needs, but pushed back on their desires. He balanced the needs of the services' requirements against the available budget. That ruffed a lot of feathers at Air and Naval HQs, but even in that General Rawat tactfully managed the public perception...that the services were united, despite a lot of back room differences i.e. funding for a 65,000 ton aircraft carrier + six SSNs + six P-75I, 114 MRFA, etc.

Finding another General Rawat is easier said than done. Losing General Rawat is like losing Field Marshal KM Cariappa (when he took over as Army Chief in 1949) or Air Marshal Subroto Mukerjee (who died untimely in 1960). The loss is huge and it is not because of who General Rawat was as an individual. But General Rawat set a lot of the current policies and functioning of the CDS. He was successful in being that communication bridge between the Govt and the Services. Many hated him for it, but that is precisely one of the reasons for what the office of CDS was created for.

But where the GOI (and even General Rawat) dropped the ball is grooming his replacement. No one stays in the service forever and no one is bigger than the institution or the office of CDS. One can only hope that the next successor does not make the same mistake and grooms his own successor in the form of a VCDS. And although a VCDS presently exists (Air Marshal Balabhadra Radha Krishna), he was not groomed to take over that role. And that role is very much necessary in India, where the three services are very insular and do not look beyond their own service.

The current Air Force and Navy Chief are too young in their role as Chief of their respective service. This present Air Chief is stuck on 114 MRFA (like white on rice) and does not think beyond that. The rest of Air HQ is equally obsessed with that endeavor as well. General Naravane is the only chief that has seniority in his role and (hopefully) understands the role of CDS. I am an optimist in these matters and I believe that General Naravane will be a good CDS and finish the work that General Rawat started. The other equally good officer - IMVHO - would be Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhaduria (retd). So lets see how this rolls out.

Whoever the GOI appoints as the next CDS, should have a laser vision focus on Atmanirbhar Bharat. That must be the foremost criteria in selecting the next CDS. So no empty speeches on Atmanirbhar Bharat, but a strong focus on placing actual orders of local maal. No more having individual service chiefs talk about out procurement announcements without the CDS clearing it first. I am not in favour of blind induction of local maal, but neither am I in favour of mindless importing. Commence with this (big ticket) list first....

1) HAL Dhruv (Rudra)
2) Light Combat Helicopter
3) Light Utility Helicopter
4) Dhanush, ATAGS, etc
5) Integrated Rocket Force (Shaurya, Nirbhay, Prahaar, Pralay, etc)
6) Tejas Mk1A, Tejas Mk2
7) Arjun Mk1A
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral a cogent discourse. I however would like to se a serving officer don the mantle. Getting someone retired opens up another can of worms.
Remember the CDS role and conceptual foundation has to weather a post Modi sarkar or a govt less prone to AtmaNirbhar.
AtmaNirbhar is just one aspect of aCDS role. I am hoping that this role will also be a catalyst for true jointmanship.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Good point Sachin - Jointmanship (and interoperability) is another key area.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by KSingh »

jaysimha wrote:it is hypothetical to state.
I feel Gen Navarane may not ( want to) become CDS.

In this regard, I think this news article popped up.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 893863.cms
Allowing all this time to go by with the post vacant has undone one of the few reforms they had attempted in the defence arena, all of CDS Rawat’s plans (AD command, theatrisation, joint procurements etc) have completely fallen by the wayside and the post may never recover. It may well be India’s terminal curse that their first ever CDS who was perhaps the most qualified for that position as you could be never got to see his post’s promise deliver.

Whether through indifference or ineptitude the damage is done, Modi’s characteristic decisiveness seems to be waning but either way the fact that the CDS post has gone vacant this long has set the tone. It was always going to be hard to find a replacement but this inaction has poisoned the challace
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by k prasad »

KSingh wrote:
jaysimha wrote:it is hypothetical to state.
I feel Gen Navarane may not ( want to) become CDS.

In this regard, I think this news article popped up.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 893863.cms
Allowing all this time to go by with the post vacant has undone one of the few reforms they had attempted in the defence arena, all of CDS Rawat’s plans (AD command, theatrisation, joint procurements etc) have completely fallen by the wayside and the post may never recover. It may well be India’s terminal curse that their first ever CDS who was perhaps the most qualified for that position as you could be never got to see his post’s promise deliver.

Whether through indifference or ineptitude the damage is done, Modi’s characteristic decisiveness seems to be waning but either way the fact that the CDS post has gone vacant this long has set the tone. It was always going to be hard to find a replacement but this inaction has poisoned the challace
Hopefully they've played it smart and used this opportunity to give Gen. Naravane time to get set up and have pressure-free conversations with the other service chiefs as an equal, so he can hit the ground running on day 1. My hope is that there's movement on the back-end for many of the reforms that Gen. Rawat had started, without any of it hitting the public eye. If so, we can expect to see a flurry of movement and announcements on the theaterization and jointmanship fronts within weeks of Gen Naravane taking office.

All this is assuming that it is indeed Gen. Naravane who will be the next CDS, and that the service chiefs and top brass were informed of this weeks ago, with orders to keep it hush-hush and use the time to have substantive discussions within the COSC to address concerns and find solutions.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

The big news in the next few months is likely to be anything other than what Gen Rawat was pushing.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Rakesh and as Army Chief, he saw the Galwan and the post-confrontation through.
So he has war experience as a chief.
That counts for a lot.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral Karambir Singh could be next CDS according to Bharat Karnad.
https://bharatkarnad.com/2022/04/26/th- ... like-18342
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheAvenger82/status ... RNYcOghErA ---> Government is looking at possibly splitting the post of the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) and Secretary, Department of Military Affairs (DMA), both of which were held by the late General Bipin Rawat.DMA will report to CDS and will be held by a commander rank official.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by k prasad »

Interesting. Maybe a way to get both Karambir Singh & Naravane in the mix?

IF they were split without the DMA reporting to CDS, I'd have been a bit more worried, but since DMA reports to CDS, it sounds like maybe they want to empower the CDS a bit more and add an extra rank to reduce the burden?

Still not out of the woods on worries though... something tells me that Lutyens Babus will be looking at a CDS and RMA who don't see eye-to-eye, thereby undermining each other. Sigh.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Atmavik »

^^^ let’s revisit this thread when the CDS is announced. I think most of the Lutyens gang has no idea what modi will do and float such articles in frustration
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

In this case Modi ji has not done anything. That is the failure. Optics!!!!
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