CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

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shyamd
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by shyamd »

ramana wrote:Gen. Rawat will go down in Indian military history as only next to Lord Kitchener who integrated the post East India Company Presidency armies and reformed it into a professional modern force that won laurels in both world wars.
That’s probably taking it a bit far. They are just starting the long journey to create integration because vested interests had to be protected.

In some years we’ll say integration hasn’t gone far enough and defence as a whole isn’t delivering its output efficiently.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Vips »

Formal Operationalization of the Joint Maritime Command based in Karwar and Joint Air Defence Command based in Allahabad to be announced by PM Modi in his 15th August address this year.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by bharathp »

Vips wrote:Formal Operationalization of the Joint Maritime Command based in Karwar and Joint Air Defence Command based in Allahabad Prayagraj to be announced by PM Modi in his 15th August address this year.
major correction vips ji. need to remove allahabad from memory
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by LakshmanPST »



Many updates here, particularly in the Q&A section...
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by hnair »

The AD scene was the relatively disappointing one during the post Balakote action. But thanks to Holy ATM (and jinnah), his favorite country on earth is an elongated shape with Indian borders neatly within 500km of its entire afghan border. If there is a SAM of atleast 200km range(XRSAM-S400) in the ADC being setup, then a lot of things can be done without IAF fighters going across borders without SAR options and get into what Wg Cdr Abhinandan had to go through.

1) at the lower end, such a system will do an immediate mission kill of the Operation Swine-snort type efforts, when their RWR starts howling and they don’t know if losing their beloved solahs is an option.

2) at the more longer term end, declare a 100 km no-fly zone for a few days and shoot down a drone or two to prove the point. Will certainly increase sick leaves and grandma bereavement rates in the Bhandar squadrons, since they get a lot of time on ground.

3) since as per Samir Joshi’s article, the pakis are dream-drooling about an Su30MKI kill, nothing would be funnier than a lonely Rhamba leading a squad of aroused sherdils* to re-certify their para-qualifications at a SAM alley with layers of pointy missiles.

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* Sherdil literally means, “vomit” in Malayalam and hence make SDCREs giggle.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

https://www.gunnersshot.com/2021/04/thi ... n.html?m=1

Indian Armed Forces are capable enough to defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the nation even without getting theatrised. That is a proven historical fact and does not change. However, theatrisation must improve the capability of the Armed Forces to deter our adversaries and defend the nation better at least cost – operationally and financially. Theatrisation must also enable India’s rise as a power of consequence consistent with its growth, interests and aspirations. India is destined for a global role and its place in the comity of nations. That role will not be fulfilled unless we have a fully ‘integrated’ and ‘joint’ military. Any form of theatrisation must address these two factors.



Theatrisation of the Armed Forces is a national imperative. Hence political guidance and direction has to be hands-on. The guidance will be derived from a dynamic national strategy. In turn, this is dependent on a host of internal and external factors – constitutional, political, geopolitical and economic factors. Political guidance has to be indicated to the Armed Forces - formally or informally. The Political, Bureaucratic and Military hierarchies’ have to be pull their weight together. It reinforces the point I have oft made – necessity of a Politico- Military Fusion for a 'Future Ready' India. Are we ready for the challenges ahead? Theatrisation is a national reform with huge structural, financial and operational changes. Unless the bureaucracy is well informed and positively intentioned, the change will not be synchronous to emerging strategic or operational requirements. Procrastination and decision delays will not do. Mindsets at all levels need to change.
....

The decision on theatrisation has been taken. We should leave all our doubts behind and put our heart and soul into making it a success. The question henceforth should be, how to make it happen rather than why do we need it. The shape and level of theatrisation will be subject to financial constraints. Currently, we will be able to theatrise only to a certain extent. However that should not deter us. We need to make adequate structures even if they are presently skeletal, so that they can be filled up in the future, as and when finances are made available, and capabilities are put in place. It is an evolutionary process. One must also remember that change is a 'constant' in life. We should adapt to this change. Our higher defence organization must evolve accordingly. We have to put in a lot of thought into this exercise since transition management will be a challenge. Lastly theatrisation should enable us to defend India optimally at least cost in the short run. In the long run theatrisation should enable India rise as a power off reckoning....

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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by shyamd »

LakshmanPST wrote:

Many updates here, particularly in the Q&A section...
I encourage all members to listen to the Q&A. It shows how broken and rotten the inter service issues are. CDS puts a positive spin on the matters but it gives you an insight into how politicized the intra service rivalries are.

As I said above, CDS post is just a baby step toward integration. Many many service vested interests have to be protected unfortunately.

Even small scale changes on efficiency are being challenged in the courts by serving officers.

Reality is the current set up of the forces is out of date for the threats we face.. the sooner we merge all three arms the better
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by srin »

With formal appointments in, this is how the Department of Military Affairs will function
With uniformed officers being given joint secretary ranks, all files will no longer need to be moved to the Secretary of Dept of Military Affairs for decisions.
With formal appointment orders coming in last week, the Department of Military Affairs (DMA), under the Defence Ministry, is now staffed with designated senior officers, including uniformed personnel as Additional Secretary and Joint Secretaries.

Gen. Rawat holds the rank of both Secretary, DMA and the Chief of Defence Staff (CDS).
The Chief of the Integrated Defence Staff to the Chairman Chiefs of Staff Committee (CISC), Vice Admiral Atul Kumar Jain, will be the Vice CDS, but formal orders for the same are yet to come.

Lt Gen. Anil Puri has been appointed as the Additional Secretary in the DMA. He is the first uniformed officer to take over this position in a formal capacity, following his appointment by the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet. This position has been traditionally held by IAS officers.
Till now, uniformed officers were holding positions only in officiating capacity. This meant that all files had to be moved to Secretary, DMA for decisions.

This is no longer needed because each appointment can now dispose of files according to powers delegated.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by srin »

I'd missed the previous related article (I don't follow Print much)

Big boost for military as Modi govt gives officers powers of additional & joint secretaries
Formal appointment means the officers can now dispose of files at their levels under powers delegated to them, instead of routing them through Secretary, DMA, Gen. Bipin Rawat.
In a landmark move in the country’s armed forces history, uniformed personnel from the Army, Air Force and Navy have been for the first time formally appointed as additional secretary and joint secretaries in the Ministry of Defence.

In a late evening order Monday, the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet (ACC), headed by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, appointed Lt Gen. Anil Puri as the Additional Secretary in the Department of Military Affairs (DMA).

Maj. Gen. K. Narayanan, Rear Admiral Kapil Mohan Dhir and Air Vice Marshal Hardeep Bains have been appointed as joint secretaries in the DMA, which began functioning in January 2020 as part of the defence reforms introduced by the government.
Explaining this, a source said: “Till now, without official notification, all files had to be moved to Secretary, DMA for decisions. This is no longer needed because each appointment can now dispose of files as per powers delegated.”

Calling it a “historic and landmark moment” for the armed forces in the country, another source said: “The ACC approval was in the pipeline and it has finally come. This makes the process much smoother and formalised in a bureaucratic set-up.”
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Nice org chart.
Good to see ESTT & COORD post
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Nice org chart.
Good to see ESTT & COORD post
now we will wait for the purpose-built bottlenecks in the system to surface and kick in.

the babooze are not the ones to easily tolerate or accept such interference in one of their prized domains
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Sigh you don't get it!!!!
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Philip »

Follow up of the PM's Red Fort speech.
“India should not have a fragmented approach. Our entire military power will have to work in unison and move forward. All the three (Services) should move simultaneously at the same pace. There should be good coordination and it should be relevant to the hope and aspirations of our people. It should be in line with the changing war and security environment of the world. After formation of this post (CDS), all the three forces will get effective leadership at the top level.”
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2021/05 ... track.html
Xcpt:
IINDIA’S HIGHER DEFENCE REFORMS ON TRACK
TUESDAY, MAY 25, 2021 BY INDIAN DEFENCE NEWS


by Nitin A Gokhale

The second stage of reforms in India’s higher defence management is likely to get off the ground over the next two three months with the military leadership in the process of finalising the contours of at least two joint theatre commands to be formed this year, as all indications suggest.

The Chiefs of Staff Committee (CoSC) under the Chairmanship of Chief of Defence Staff Gen Bipin Rawat is likely to discuss two studies authored by the Vice Chiefs of the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force for the creation of the Maritime Theatre Command and an Integrated National Air Defence Command over the next few days.

From all indications available in the public domain, the Maritime Theatre Command (MTC), to be headed by a three-star (Vice Admiral) level naval officer will include the existing Eastern and Western Naval Commands, a scaled-down Andaman and Nicobar Command, the Southern Air Command and two brigades of the Army, capable of carrying out amphibious operations, besides two squadrons of the air forces’ maritime strike aircraft.

To be most likely headquartered in Karwar, which has one of the biggest naval bases in the country, the Maritime Theatre Command will have a vast area of responsibility stretching from the western Indian Ocean to the western Pacific (in keeping with India’s definition of the Indo-Pacific region). The Andaman Nicobar Command, India’s first tri-services command, in its 20th year currently, is likely to revert to being Fortress Andaman and Nicobar or FORTAN to be headed by a Lt General or equivalent officer in the other two services by turn. The head of FORTAN will report to the Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief (FOC-in-C), Eastern Naval Command, according to the recommendation of the study on Maritime Theatre Command. While the Air Force element in the Maritime Theatre Command will be provided by the assets of the Southern Air Command based in Trivandrum, two squadrons of the IAF, comprising its maritime strike aircraft Jaguars and Su-30s, based in Jamnagar and Thanjavur respectively will also form part of the Maritime Theatre Command.

The Trivandrum-based 91 Brigade and the Port Blair based 108 Mountain Brigade will provide the Army element in the MTC. Both these brigades have been working in close tandem with the Indian Navy for years and are well-versed with the requirements of maritime operations, quite distinct from land-based manoeuvres.

While the structure of the MTC seems more or less settled, the details of the National Air Defence Command are yet to be firmed up. In fact, some conceptual issues require resolution before Air Defence National Command is structured. How will the mobile and short-range air defence resources of army formations be grouped for command? What will be the design for provisioning air defence for ships/ fleet at sea beyond territorial waters? These questions are apparently being debated. The headquarters of the new air defence command is likely to be located either at Allahabad or at Nagpur, reports say and it is certain to be headed by a three-star rank Air Force officer.

The Air Defence Command has also some practical difficulties to overcome since the air defence assets, systems and equipment that all the three forces hold currently is diverse and of a different vintage. In addition, the personnel of the three services handling air defence are trained differently. Combining all or most assets and getting everyone on one page will be a mammoth and time-consuming task, according to those dealing with the task of integrating the disparate elements.

There are some reports that an announcement of the creation of the two theatre commands may come as early as August after the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) approves it. The implementation may take some more time though. Once the first two theatre commands are rolled out, the top military leadership is likely to turn its attention to the creation of two or three more theatre commands to be headed by Army officers.

One school of thought is that there should be one theatre each for the western front (against Pakistan) and the entire northern front against China. However, given the twin challenges of a vast frontage of the northern borders and complexities of handling a proxy war waged by Pakistan in Jammu and Kashmir, another view is to have a Western Theatre Command (for Pakistan), Northern Command (to include Jammu and Kashmir, Ladakh and northern border west of Nepal), and an Eastern Command (starting from East of Nepal and extending to the Myanmar and Bangladesh borders). Discussions for finalisation of these commands are on currently but their approval may come in the third stage, according to all indications available so far.

The theatre commanders will become the operational commanders once the commands are rolled out and will be taking instructions from the CoSC, headed by the CDS and comprising the three Chiefs of Staff of the respective services. The Chiefs will thus continue to have a say in operational matters through the CoSC. However, they will mainly be responsible to raise, train and sustain the three services. All these steps are likely to get implemented progressively.

While the timelines may vary, what is certain is that jointness and integration of the three armed forces is now an irreversible process since the decision was approved by the CCS, India’s highest decision-making body on security matters way back in mid-2019. The ball was set rolling on 30 December 2019 with the appointment of Gen Bipin Rawat as the first Chief of Defence Staff (CDS).

As a follow-up, four months later, on 24 December 2019, the Government notified the appointment of the CDS. It also went a step further by creating a Department of Military Affairs (DMA) and made the CDS the Secretary of the Department within the Ministry of Defence (DMA). The CDS, now the Principal Military Adviser to the Government, is also the Permanent Chairman CoSC. Among many other tasks mandated to him, according to an official press note issued that day, the CDS is to function as the Military Adviser to the Nuclear Command Authority, bring about jointness in operation, logistics, transport, training, support services, communications, repairs and maintenance, etc., of the three Services, within three years, ensure optimal utilisation of infrastructure and rationalise it through jointness among the services, and finally bring about reforms in the functioning of three Services aimed at augmenting combat capabilities of the Armed Forces by reducing wasteful expenditure.

The DMA meanwhile, is now manned by a mix of civilian and military officials with a three star Army officer designated as Additional Secretary (No. 2 to the CDS, who is also Secretary, DMA) and three Major General rank officers drawn from each service serving as Joint Secretaries. Two civilian officers are also part of the DMA as Joint Secretaries. This arrangement is certainly a major departure from the past and is indicative of the change that is currently underway in the MoD.

Difficulties in implementation of major plans notwithstanding, India’s defence reforms are well and truly on track.


Nikhil A Ghokale is one of India's foremost & respected defence analysts, unlike others who have partisan views, he is the author and founder of BharatShakti.in, a specialised defence website
ramana
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Govt has given last warning on early formation. No more excuses.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

The headquarters of the new air defence command is likely to be located either at Allahabad or at Nagpur.

Prayagraj.

Nagpur puts too many in Deccan with Karwar already taken for Maritime command.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by VinodTK »

Chief of Defence Staff Bipin Rawat to chair key meet on theatre commands on Tuesday
Extensive studies have been undertaken and discussed over the last two years before arriving at a broad plan to create four integrated triservice commands, an official said on Monday. However, the IAF still has major reservations on the issue, said the official.

Air defence and maritime theatre commands, integrated eastern theatre and integrated western theatre commands are being planned, the official said.

As part of the ongoing deliberations, Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) Gen. Bipin Rawat is scheduled to chair a meeting on Tuesday with the Vice-Chiefs of the three services, the Chief of Integrated Defence Staff and the representatives from the Ministries of Defence, Home and Finance.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by shyamd »

Because IAF believes they are the loser in Theatre command plans. Not getting enough Theatre commander posts. Hope petty politics goes away and they start playing as a team.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

The bringing para military is a red herring. Theater commands are RM domain.
Need to be focused. No inter ministerial nonsense.

CDS is not for bringing police forces under military. Leads to Praetorization of police forces.
Wonder who proposed it?
Coast Guard is most likely by Navy for its long standing dream to take over Coast Guard.

Also note the bureaucratization of military commands by the suggestions to be ranked higher than Vice Chief.
These guys are utter babus in uniform.
Do they want to fight the enemy or expand their span of control?
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by VinodTK »

Threatre command system: What it is, how it could help military embrace future and match up to China
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What is theatre command?

It is not a new idea. The appointment of General Bipin Rawat as the Chief of Defence Staff in January 2020 and before that, the setting up of the Integrated Defence Staff in 2001 can all be seen as steps in the direction of achieving greater synergy and fusion between the three branches of the armed forces.

The CDS appointment was also accompanied by the creation of the Department of Military Affairs (DMA) within the Ministry of Defence with the view to promote 'jointness' among the three branches of the armed forces. The idea behind these moves is to create capacities for the armed forces to adapt to the requirements of hybrid warfare and ensure increased coordination to boost the overall fighting capabilities of the Indian armed forces.

At present, the Indian Army, navy and air force each has multiple commands that are vertically split in terms of their command structure. The army and air force have seven commands each while the navy has three commands.

But these commands do not coincide geographically and are scattered across the country. While the details of how exactly the theatre command system will shape up are not immediately clear, reports say that the the proposal currently is for four theatre commands: air defence, maritime, integrated eastern and integrated western theatre commands.

How will system help?

The theatre command system is intended to bring better synergy between the three branches of the armed forces. Instead of separate commands for the army, navy, air force, a unified command will be set up to be led by a single commander. Which means that that the military assets that are now split under separate centres of command will be fused into one single command under one operational head who will be responsible for directing and controlling their activities in a given situation.

But apart from operational synergies, experts point out that a theatre command system will also contribute to more streamlined costs and a leaner fighting force. A big chunk of the annual defence budget goes into paying salaries and pensions while outlays do not always grow in line with the actual needs of the armed forces.

Supporters say that the theatre command system will help remove redundancies and bring greater focus in the allocation of resources.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Barath »

:P
shyamd wrote:Because IAF believes they are the loser in Theatre command plans. Not getting enough Theatre commander posts. Hope petty politics goes away and they start playing as a team.
Army Theater Commands : Air Force : Navy = 2: 1:1

Just put IAF officer as head of western command or eastern command periodically.

What air assets will these commands have after all, when there is a separate air defense command ?

With dedicated air assets, it would be redundancy and duplication

Without dedicated air assets, jointness of theater commands would be a sham - lip service. You would depend on inter command support (inter service support), not hugely different than today in concept.


Keep A&N as a separate joint theater command of a lesser rank and watch folks jockey to get that grooming joint command experience before moving up.

/tic

Also, I'm not sure theater commands will do much to reduce pension and salary demands.

Maybe they might reduce a dozen or so at lieutenant general grade, or maybe those will be subsumed under proposed structure
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

India has 17 commands: & Army, 7 IAF, and 3 Navy. Each has its own doctrine or dogma and they cant talk to each other but through Delhi.
They face China with 1 Western Command.
Now tell me what should we do? Continue the old bokwas for egos?
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by LakshmanPST »

Address Cross-Training Before Integration For Theatre Commands
- June 20, 2021; By: Air Marshal Harish Masand (Retd)
https://bharatshakti.in/address-cross-t ... -commands/
As per a recent report by Nitin Gokhale, published on the Bharatshakti website, higher defence reforms are on track in India with the likely formation of two integrated commands by August 2021. Nitin also reiterates the reforms mandate to the CDS, General Bipin Rawat, to bring about jointness in communications, training, logistics & maintenance and support services, apart from operations, within three years while rationalizing the existing infrastructure to augment combat capabilities of the armed forces and reducing wasteful expenditure.

From the questions raised in this report, itself on the conceptual framework of the Air Defence Command still requiring resolution, it becomes apparent that we are putting the cart before the horse in our haste to meet the given deadline. Surely, the senior leadership must have considered this issue of integration in all previous appointments and studied the experience of other nations, particularly the US being the largest in this field as a democracy, and formulated a plan to adapt their structure and best practices to our institutional and cultural environment instead of reinventing the wheel. The very fact of air defence being thought of as bringing just the SAMs and AD guns under one commander indicates lack of such study and of military history as in Bekaa Valley in 1982.

Even a cursory study would indicate that the essential initial steps for joint operations are training backed by the requisite secure communications integrating literally every fighting unit in the command loop to execute joint plans with the requisite flexibility in the fog of war, or in other words integrating sensors with shooters to minimize the OODA cycle in this era of information warfare. With all three services reportedly still using their individual communication networks which do not easily talk to each other, much less to the systems of other friendly nations that we regularly exercise with, the desired integration would remain a mirage. Just one example from the US would illustrate the importance of this issue. It may be recalled that the Goldwater-Nichols Act of 1986 created seven regional (theatre) combatant commands bringing all five US military services under unified, geographically organized command structures. Today, there are 11 including the recent Space Command. Even after five years, in Desert Storm, the Joint Air Component Commander, General Horner, could not electronically pass the Air Tasking Orders (ATOs) to the Carrier Groups of the US Navy and these had to be flown in manually every day. It took the air wings of the US Navy and the USAF almost another decade of cross-training till Operations Enduring and Iraqi Freedom to come together on a common platform and largely operate as one team, with some issues still to be resolved. In the case of the USAF and US Army, such a model was still being considered till 2007.

35 years after the Goldwater-Nichols Act mandating unified commands, the USAF still operates eight separate commands, namely Air Combat Command, Air Education and Training Command, Material Command, Global Strike Command, Air Mobility Command, Space Command, AF Reserve Command and even an AF Special Operations Command. In addition, it has separate command organizations for Pacific Air Forces and USAF in Europe. When required to support operational missions, the Secretary of Defense directs the Secretary of the Air Force (SECAF) to execute a Change in Operational Control (CHOP) of these units to a Regional Combatant Commander. With over 5300 aircraft currently, surely the USAF could have been parcelled out to various theatre commands if that was the most operationally effective integrated approach. However, it was not, based on the principles of unity of command and concentration of firepower. In the case of a much smaller IAF, with just about 30 combat squadrons, against a sanction of 45 and a handful of combat support elements, how is the reported division in the name of reforms even being thought of?

Similarly, the US Navy operates nine major commands like Navy Expeditionary Combat, Military Sealift, Sea Systems, Air Systems, Naval Facilities Engineering Systems, Supply Systems, IW Systems, Strategic Systems Program and Naval Education & Training apart from Fleet Forces commands for each region. Despite operating more than 3700 operational aircraft, the US Navy also does not divide its aircraft or carrier groups but allocates these based on the situation while continuing to train for all contingencies. Even the US Army runs many major commands and five major surface component commands like Pacific, Europe and Africa, North, South and Central all headed by 3 or 4-Star Generals. As recently as 2018, necessity resulted in the formation of an additional Army Futures Command (AFC).

Co-location has been cited by many in India as a pre-requisite for integration, jointness and economizing by shutting down some existing commands. Against this, even in the case of the US Army where it is possible to pre-position most forces in the area of envisaged operations due to their relative immobility and reaction time, three unified commands and their army components have headquarters outside their area of operations. CENTCOM’s is located at MacDill AFB in Tampa, Florida with a forward headquarters at Al Udeid Air Base in Qatar while the army component, ARCENT, is headquartered at Shaw AFB in South Carolina. Functioning is through efficient communications with the span of control of the commanders still a major consideration. Have we carried out a study on the actual savings versus operational effectiveness after the proposed closure and relocation of some commands?

Unfortunately, in our case, the approach appears to be driven more by the numbers and vacancies for each service with the fixation of having the forces under command. The Army also seems to work on its limited field of view by seeing the air force more as flying artillery for close air support, apart from air mobility, without the broader strategic vision of the Air Force. Undeniably, the Air Force is the most technology-intensive service and a single platform today is capable of role switching and reacting in near real-time to emergent situations. Due to the roles and rapid strategic reach, it is also likely to be the first responder in most contingencies in our current geopolitical environment under a nuclear overhang. Based on this, it could be argued that the Air Force should lead most theatre commands duly assisted by component commanders from each service. In Desert Storm, General Norman Schwarzkopf wisely handed over the operations to the air component commander, General Charles Horner, to run a 1000-hour air campaign before a 100-hour ground campaign. Such maturity is unlikely in India without jointly educated and trained commanders and staff.

It is also easier for an airman to understand surface operations than it is for a soldier to understand air operations. An example of a Corps Commander in 1989-91 later criticizing the non-use of Mi-25/35 attack helicopters in Kargil despite having had these helicopters under him in his Corps shows how limited their understanding of airpower is. The same General also talked of a certain number of fighter squadrons being authorized for close air support, once again displaying his ignorance on the use of multi-role fighters in particular and air power in general. The example of the Pakistani Army sending out a brigade, which was decimated by air at Longewala in 1971, without first achieving air superiority in that area further illustrates the thinking of soldiers in the sub-continent and strengthens the case for the air force.

Training and communications issues, therefore, should have been first addressed and resolved before haste makes waste of our efforts at integration.
Underluned sentences more or less shows the Air Force point of view.
I see mainly two issues here--->
1) Air Force thinks their role will be deminished and will be seen more as a special unit of Army (like Armour, Artillery) rather than as a separate force.
2) They feel Army do not understand air operations enough for them to lead overall operations. Rather, they feel each of the services do not properly uderstand the operations of other services enough to take up commanding roles.

While 1st issue may be put aside, I think there is some merit in the second arguement. Before the Joint Theatre Commands are operationalized, I guess we should first have proper training programs in place for Inter-service training at higher levels...
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Also the theater commands are fighting or combat commands not the logistics etc.
So he is throwing facts without relevance.

Theater commands were suggested by KRC report and approved by GOM.

Air force higher Commanders have stalled 20 years.
Enough Let's Move On. ELMO

If they feel so strongly let them resign.
Before they get fired.
srai
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by srai »

As a prerequisite, the Three services need to be on the same communications network or at least plugged-in to each other’s networks.

Procurement needs to be aligned to reduce duplication and increase buying power through combined orders. Funding prioritized across services to achieve balance. Reduce duplication, wastage and inefficiencies across services.

Cross service functional teams, deputation, course training, and strategic thinking needs to be part of the culture of the future leaders of each service. Let them become comfortable with each other.

Decades in the making.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Vips »

Unified military commands could be a reality by Independence Day.

The government is determined to push ahead with joint military commands to build an integrated war-fighting machinery in a more cost-effective manner, even as efforts are under way to allay apprehensions of the Indian Air Force.

The plan, as it stands now, is to formally announce the decision to create four new integrated commands on Independence Day this year. The integrated maritime theatre command (IMTC), integrated air defence command (IADC) and two integrated land theatre commands (for the borders with Pakistan and China) will then be "raised and operationalised" over a two-year period by August 15, 2023, top sources told on Saturday.

"A separate command for Jammu & Kashmir, which will include counter-terrorism operations, is also under consideration. The final modalities are being worked out. The government fully backs the creation of the integrated commands," said a source.

As per the plan being spearheaded by chief of defence staff (CDS) General Bipin Rawat, the "commencement of the raising" of the new commands will begin after August 15 this year. These "raisings" will be overseen by serving commanders-in-chief (senior Lt-Generals, Vice Admirals and Air Marshals), in addition to their existing responsibilities.

With the raisings to be completed by August 15 next year, the "commencement of operationalisation" of the new commands will then follow with the appointments of the actual theatre commanders. "The operationalisation will be completed by August 15, 2023. The theatre commanders will report directly to the chiefs of staff committee (CoSC), which is chaired by the CDS and includes the Army, Navy and IAF chiefs," he added.

India currently has only two unified commands, the Andaman and Nicobar Command and the Strategic Forces Command to handle the country's nuclear arsenal, which were set up in 2001 and 2003 after the Kargil conflict with Pakistan.

With India having as many as 17 single-service commands (Army 7, IAF 7 and Navy 3), which have little synergy in planning and operations as well as disjointed command-and-control structures, the need for joint commands and an integrated land-sea-air war-fighting machinery has been felt for a long time.

As per the plan being spearheaded by CDS General Bipin Rawat, these ‘raisings’ of the new commands will be overseen by serving commanders-in-chief (senior Lt Generals, Vice Admirals and Air Marshals).

The IAF, however, has resisted the move, stressing it would be operationally unwise to divide the country's "limited air assets" (just 30 fighter squadrons, six mid-air refuellers, three AWACS, two AEW&C aircraft etc) among different theatre commands. Moreover, the IAF contends that it can swiftly move its forces from one front to another across the country in less than 48 hours. :roll:

A high-level committee chaired by the CDS, and including the vice-chiefs of Army, Navy and IAF, chief of integrated defence staff and representatives from defence, home and finance ministries, has already met in a bid to resolve such internal differences within the armed forces as well as consult external stakeholders.

"Theatre commands will become a reality, one way or the other. They will be based fundamentally on a particular domain, with the assets and tri-service integration required in that domain. The CoSC will decide on the reallocation of forces among different theatres as and when required, depending on the contingency," said a senior officer.

"These turf wars cannot continue forever. Even in the US, the Goldwater-Nichols Act had to be ultimately thrust down the military's throat to streamline integration and the chain of command, which was being stymied by inter-Service rivalry," he added.

The commander-in-chief of the proposed IMTC, for instance, will have full operational control over the Western and Eastern Naval Fleets, maritime strike fighter jets of IAF, two amphibious infantry brigades of the Army and Coast Guard for integrated planning and execution of operations, as reported by TOI earlier.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by srai »

^^^
Probably also need a Special Operations Command for global operations supporting India’s strategic interests.

Will require assets from all three services: transport planes, ships and commandos.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Interesting even after being tasked to create the Theater Commands it will take one more year to do raisings!!!
Shows how bureaucratic the services have become.
They are the Babucracy now.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Interesting even after being tasked to create the Theater Commands it will take one more year to do raisings!!!
Shows how bureaucratic the services have become.
They are the Babucracy now.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by shyamd »

Design phase takes around 6 months at least if not longer. Detailed implementation will take at least a year to achieve IOC state. FOC in 2023 seems about right to me.

Everything from Finance, Governance/meetings, posts roles & responsibilities to technology ... people issues like location/transfers/perks....
Takes time to fix if you want the right results.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ManuJ »

If we're going with theatre commands, why is there a single Air Defense Command?
Shouldn't air defense assets be part of each command? Or would the Air Defense Command only have strategic assets (e.g. ABMs)?
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by srai »

^^^
Two different categories of command

1. Theatre based - suited for border threat alignment
2. National outlook - not aligned to any specific border


Theatre based ideal for the Indian Army deployments against Pakistan and China. Supporting assets from other services as when required. Co-location of IAF assets within the theater not really necessary as the reach can be done from further afield.

For national outlook, it includes primarily the nuclear strategic command. The air defense command also makes sense as it covers the entire nation. Significant air defense assets may be allocated to the theaters.

Somewhat Similarly, the IN has two seas on either side to distribute its forces, but falls under one command.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Paul »

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 57686.html
The Indian Army’s Northern Command is the only single-service command that will stay outside the scope of the military’s theaterisation drive aimed at integrating the capabilities of the three services and optimally utilising their resources for future wars and operations, people aware of the matter said on Thursday. And a final call on the headquarters of the new Air Defence Command, one of the five new integrated commands being created , is yet to be taken, the people added.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by srai »

^^^

IA Northern Command outside of the two new Theater Commands for Chinese and Pakistan?

Since the current CDS is from IA, they have the first take on the joint theater commands. We will see IN and IAF take when their chiefs rotate in two-three years and assume CDS position.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:Interesting even after being tasked to create the Theater Commands it will take one more year to do raisings!!!
Shows how bureaucratic the services have become.
They are the Babucracy now.
Probably because this has not been thought through and the other services not brought on the journey appropriately. Joint ness of operations is not something that starts at a Higer command level but has to start at basic training level. There is a high level of siloed mentality in the army and don’t please say the CDS will solve it.
Our Army is a CI army and a whole generation of officers have lost touch with the concept of action outside the CI domain.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ParGha »

ks_sachin wrote:Joint ness of operations is not something that starts at a Higher command level but has to start at basic training level.
NDA is a joint basic training institution training 17-22 year cadets for decades. If that is not early enough, then I don't think it is a problem of training.

Look at the fundamentals: Different services very different understanding of time and distance and weight. An infantry battalion is lucky to advance at 7kmph, AFVs move 35kmph, helos move 200kmph, fast-jets move 1500kmph... on the flip side, the infantryman is autonomous for 2-3 days of combat with a 50kg load, while others burn through 50kgs in minutes (or seconds) and need more and more support (and thus more planning).

At higher commands, the distance, time and/or weight responsibilities start to converge. And that is where the training should begin. Otherwise it is just information overload (at best), or worse, it breeds false sense of confidence in outdated knowledge.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

ParGha wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Joint ness of operations is not something that starts at a Higher command level but has to start at basic training level.
NDA is a joint basic training institution training 17-22 year cadets for decades. If that is not early enough, then I don't think it is a problem of training.

Look at the fundamentals: Different services very different understanding of time and distance and weight. An infantry battalion is lucky to advance at 7kmph, AFVs move 35kmph, helos move 200kmph, fast-jets move 1500kmph... on the flip side, the infantryman is autonomous for 2-3 days of combat with a 50kg load, while others burn through 50kgs in minutes (or seconds) and need more and more support (and thus more planning).

At higher commands, the distance, time and/or weight responsibilities start to converge. And that is where the training should begin. Otherwise it is just information overload (at best), or worse, it breeds false sense of confidence in outdated knowledge.
NDA is not enough and not necessarily where I would see it start and not what I meant so the term basic training should not have been used.

But take College of Combat. Do you think that there is enough done to acquaint the upcoming crop of potential leaders on joint ness?

Time, distance and weight spot on but unless there has been a revision in the syllabus we are not grooming offers in their formative years to think different.

Forget army vs at vs navy even within the army itself there is such a level of parochialism that expecting true thinking on joint ness seems far.

JMT based on my observations of fine officers but not necessarily original thinkers.

The one I met but he won’t be chief. Funnily enough the less original of his cohort in the Bn could be in the running…
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ParGha »

ks_sachin wrote:JMT based on my observations of fine officers but not necessarily original thinkers. The one I met but he won’t be chief. Funnily enough the less original of his cohort in the Bn could be in the running.
Original thinking isn't especially valued in the regular military, and there is a cooperative logic behind it: If you are so original and brilliant, then you are a single-point-of-failure; the duty of every officer is one-down-one-up, i.e. teach your job to your immediate subordinates, and learn the job of your immediate superiors; everyone must be replaceable because this is a deadly business.

Also, "original thinking", paradoxically, is not good for combined-arms and joint-services operations. If you are an artillery officer providing fire support to a company-attack (combined-arms), then you better hope that the company-commander sticks to the plan -- otherwise, people will die from friendly fire. If you are an Air Force or Navy officer providing transport (joint-services), then you better hope that the army brings its equipment in the exact sequence and priority of delivery -- otherwise, planes may crash and landing-ships may run aground. "Originality" can only be expressed in very constrained and disciplined ways (which may seem very un-original).

===

Being the "Chief" is a diplomatic and political post; it has very little to do with originality. One of my visiting professors was an ex-COAS, and he told our class (many of whom were O3-O6s), that O6-O8 is probably the last time they will ever "command" anything. After that, it is all about managing relationships, influencing people, and trying to leave each meeting with the political leadership "with your professional and moral integrity intact". O4-O5s are probably the best placed to exercise the "constrained originality" in the regular military: they are young enough to be up-to-speed with the latest technical developments, and they are old enough to understand the cultural and organizational constraints of the military.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Anoop »

ParGha wrote:O3-O8.
Sir, can you please correlate the numbers to ranks? Thank you.
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