CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

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nandakumar
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by nandakumar »

ks_sachin
But from your earlier post I did get the impression that in your view, by implication at least, Gen Rawat was acceptable as CDS because he was regarded as a 'Yes Man' by the current ruling establishment. Either that or the philosophy for the selection (CDS) this time around, has changed. Which is it? Not trying to be argumentative. Just want to know what your thinking is.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

An interesting question Nandakumar.
If you recall Gen Rawat’s appointment to Chief was not without controversy.

He was selected despite 2 seniors being available in Gen Hariz from the Mahars and Gen Bakshi from Armd Corps.
Maybe he was a yes man or maybe he was more adept at playing the political game. I don’t know and let’s not speculate.

If Gen Naravane was not flavour of the month because he was not a yes man (again this is chaiwallah who happens to have been of a rank that would be considered for CDS) it could well be that the babudom and politicos did not want another Gen Rawat who by all accounts was a forthright and dynamic CDS and who also was possibly not a yes man.

The chief and CDS position have a lot of politics attached to it not only from within the services (inf vs Armd vs…) but also on the outside. We live in fools paradise if we think these appointments don’t come with baggage.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Gen Rawat ruffled a lot of feathers in the Navy and Air Force with this forthright views (114 MRFA, third aircraft carrier, IAF being a support arm to the Army, etc). He more than likely ruffled a lot of feathers in the MoD as well.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

The downselect has occurred...

https://twitter.com/SnakeEyesOS/status/ ... pZqkr08LSg ---> CDS Announcement Soon: Defence Minister Rajnath Singh
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:Gen Rawat ruffled a lot of feathers in the Navy and Air Force with this forthright views (114 MRFA, third aircraft carrier, IAF being a support arm to the Army, etc). He more than likely ruffled a lot of feathers in the MoD as well.
feathers were ruffled across the board

many things that the govt did not/could not do due to the anticipated resulting swell of outrage was placed on his plate. The babooze took advantage of his inherent decency, loyalty and sense of trust to advise the powers that be.

there was also no reason for the govt to widen the catchment pool for the selection of the CDS.

This will seriously cause more problems than it will solve
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

^^200%
Babudom has won.
Status quo has won.
Nation will lose.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Chetak, The govt had to do what it had to do to change the system of deep selection. This ensures they have a choice to select the correct individual for the job.
It's sad someone says what he thinks about the choice and is taken for the gospel.
Always remember there are three versions of the gospels.
Org chart changes are also the cause of the delay.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote:Chetak, The govt had to do what it had to do to change the system of deep selection. This ensures they have a choice to select the correct individual for the job.
It's sad someone says what he thinks about the choice and is taken for the gospel.
Always remember there are three versions of the gospels.
Org chart changes are also the cause of the delay.
ramana ji

I continue to be a fan of the late CDS.

But the colonially inspired cancerous and malevolent system is still alive and well.

The babooze have always used the uniformed to do their dirty work.

It is the MOD that files the largest number of needless appeals against court judgements and awards of tribunals, even when the judgements are credible and compassionate, very often involving debilitating wounds suffered in operations.

The people against whom they insist on filing appeals and proceeding against against are ordinary soldiers who are left bewildered as to why the appeals were filed.

There is no need what so ever, to be so vindictive but the babooze have a very different agenda when they see the esteem that the forces are held in by ordinary citizens and all appeals against the soldiers cases are pushed by the direct orders of these "gentlemen and ladies".

The public outpouring of grief by the aam aadmi for the late CDS is an example of what will never be seen by any babooze, no matter what he may do. That hurts the so called "steel frame" badly rusted, as it is.

The late CDS passed away on 8 December 2021. Today is 15 june 2022.

There is no justification for the delay in appointing his successor. None what so ever.

cheeni is using the pretense of talks to continue to build up its capabilities on the Indo china border, especially in ladakh. They are building a second bigger bridge on Pangong Tso

the cheeni is building these bridges close to the theatre of action. Sources suggest that the new bridge will allow cheeni troops to slash their travel time from around 12 hours at the moment to around four hours.

This is no time for the govt to be wishy washy.

No matter what or who or even why, but would the govt have treated the post of cabinet secy with such irresolute dithering

No matter what anyone may say, this is not how the military succession in one of the largest armies in the world plays out.

If the process of the succession plan was not in place, why was the CDS appointed, what was the tearing hurry. Every contingency should have been covered or the appointment delayed until all the vital parts were tested out, gamed and then put in place.

Three service chiefs have retired in the interim. One of then should have been slotted in the very next day. To bring up a (leap frogging) junior to the CDS chair is to open a pandora's box.

Especially since all three service chiefs may not cosy up to the idea. Tinkering is dangerous at those levels. Ideal conditions for divide and rule scenarios as has already been seen in the decades of deliberate and obdurate delay in even appointing a CDS

In the profession of arms, death is the only certainty. The successor is often identified by deep selection even before the new incumbent takes office. This is generally what happens the world over in democracies.

every army commander or equivalent will not make it to chief. Deep selection is to identify and prevent such accidents from becoming disasters like when george fernandes sacked the Navy chief.

BTW, they were seriously tracking another chief who was into some very dubious activities but even georgie boy would not have been able to justify the sacking of two chiefs, one after the other. The case against the second gent was watertight.

Those wild west days are long gone.

These days, everyone is tracked 24x7.

The ranch is calm, cowboys are off limits, and the cattle are safe.

But with the opening of the pandora's box, the cowboys will get restless again, many will play the caste, language and biradari card, and politico chachas and mamas will extend support to chosen favorites, obviously for a price.

the system that is laid out now will be used by non Modi govts to subvert processes and dilute criteria.

This is probably what the BIF wants, just saying onlee.....

In spite of all their decades of efforts, the CDS has finally become a reality so the next best play would be to subvert and hobble.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by g.sarkar »

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/proc ... 220614.htm
Process for appointment of CDS underway: Rajnath
Hemant Waje, June 14, 2022

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on Tuesday said the appointment of the new Chief of Defence Staff will be made soon and that the process for it is underway.
The post of CDS has been lying vacant since General Bipin Rawat's death in a helicopter crash on December 8 last year.
"The appointment of the CDS will be made soon. The process for it is underway," the defence minister said during a media briefing here on the rollout of the "Agnipath" recruitment scheme for the armed forces.
Earlier this month, the government issued notifications, widening the selection pool for the top position.
According to the new rules, any serving or retired lieutenant general, air marshal and vice-admiral under the age of 62 years will be eligible for appointment to the post of CDS.
The three-star officers are now eligible to become the CDS, along with the serving chiefs of the three services, according to the changes made to the Army, Air Force and Navy Acts.
.....
Gautam
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

RNS statement means the announcement is close.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Looks like Admiral Hari Kumar is the CDS.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Thank goodness it is a four star, serving officer. That bolded part is vital IMVHO.

Keeping my fingers crossed that the news is true. IAC-2 will likely get sanctioned now.

Navy Chief Admiral R Hari Kumar likely to be new Chief of Defence Staff, say sources
https://www.news9live.com/india/navy-ch ... ces-177039
17 June 2022
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Chetak,
I understand the angst at the delay.
I think the whole gamut of CDS roles and responsibilities was being reviewed and adjustments were identified.
As you say the babus were trying to cut down the role after it was created by making it an administrative position.
I believe this is being fixed.

NaMo has read Clausewitz and his dictum:
CDS is a part of both preparing for war and the proper conduct of war.

All this part of making the horse thirsty to get it to drink the water.
Indian MoD is a nag, not even a horse!
To make it accept a war horse takes effort.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Looks like Admiral Hari Kumar is the CDS.
Admiral Hari Kumar was the first VCDS. He held the office from 04 Jan 2020 - 28 Feb 2021.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Roop »

ramana wrote:Looks like Admiral Hari Kumar is the CDS.
If this is true, I'm glad. Not necessarily for Adm. HK himself, but because the selected person is a naval officer.

I think it is very important (for the post of CDS) that all three branches of the military get an equal turn at the rotation. The Navy and the Air Force have to feel that they have "skin in the game" (to use an American expression) for them to have mental and emotional "buy in" to the concept of CDS.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

No rotation. It has to be whoever is selected.
The COSC by rotation is messed up.
We don't want that repeated.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

In India, the CDS needs to be an individual who can see the larger picture. Getting Air Force buy in (at this current juncture) is hard. They have still to grasp the concept. They are only thinking in insular terms (my service, my needs).

That mindset has to change. General Rawat started on that path, but he died before any meaningful change could occur. Rotation among the three services will only work when all three see eye to eye. That has yet to occur.

We will get there, but not now.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

Roop wrote:
ramana wrote:Looks like Admiral Hari Kumar is the CDS.
If this is true, I'm glad. Not necessarily for Adm. HK himself, but because the selected person is a naval officer.

I think it is very important (for the post of CDS) that all three branches of the military get an equal turn at the rotation. The Navy and the Air Force have to feel that they have "skin in the game" (to use an American expression) for them to have mental and emotional "buy in" to the concept of CDS.
This is not an equal opportunity employment program.

the raison d'être of the very existence of the Indian Armed Forces is not clearly understood by many.

It is a blunt instrument of last resort. It trains and exists only to search and destroy. It cannot/does not question or parry orders because some joker has ideological reservations. It never goes to war on its own but is always sent/ordered into war by the democratically elected civilian authority. It cannot refuse such orders.

It went to war in 1962 based on orders given by an appallingly incompetent set of "elected" civilian leaders with not even the faintest iota of strategic vision and the Army chief was a nepotisticaly appointed nobody, professionally unqualified to evaluate, plan or lead military operations at the level of the chief and yet they did not question the powers that be and they went into battle, fought and many died needlessly, and all the while, the eagerly waiting IAF was made to sit and twiddle their thumbs.

The CDS or a version of it should have been brought to life in the immediate aftermath of this war, but instead, a "one exam wonder", the defence secretary became the sole advisor to the GoI on matters military.

We need the best man on the job at all times, whosoever it may be. To serve the country effectively, the Forces must always be administered by the best available resource of military professionals and that includes the CDS. No place for any mandal/bandal ethos.

we are not an expeditionary force by any definition, so the comparison to the amerikis or any other force is a bit of a stretch.

For us, the extent and contours of the terrain remain known, the conditions generally understood, and supply lines are defined up to a point depending obviously on the proximity of hostile forces.

We are capable of operations in built up areas, deserts, and at high altitudes and possibly every terrain in between.

The IN deploys to control the SLOC, support amphibious operations, and also project power beyond the maritime boundaries of the state.

The IAF does so in the air but the power projection part is a bit iffy.

The IA is at times temporarily dependent on the IAF or the IN depending on what it has been tasked with.

Each service has a basic task and core competencies that have been honed over the decades, and their capabilities and doctrines evolve based on the operational exploitation of newer weaponry, and national doctrines to serve the supreme national interests.

In the Indian context, one service has undoubted preponderance because of the terrain, threat vectors, and the nature of the conflict and it is the only one capable of taking and holding territory because it has the boots to put on the ground and the means to keep them there. There is no getting away from this reality.

The britshits were certainly not idiots, avaricious, certainly, racist, definitely, but that was only to be expected and they adapted their military command and control structures to the local conditions prevailing, and that involved psychological and social management as well interfacing through an increasingly Indianised core of mid level management. Even the recruitment was biased and religio racist in nature with heavy caste overtones. This system was abolished by the Indian Forces many decades ago, democratising the process to suit the republic.

Whatever relics that now remain of that artificially evolved edifice are mostly the ceremonials that have been adapted and the old traditions that have been tailored to the new India after 1947 because of the transition from empire to republic, and from a brutally extractive, savagely administered colony to a self administered, ballot based
core of universal adult franchise supported democracy (in theory)

It is the IA and her sister forces that have evolved voluntarily due to internal adaptations and drivers. But traditions and history cannot be negated so easily so the colonial overtones have gone, replaced by Indian ones which are necessary for the functioning and cohesion of units in particular and the Forces as a whole

The babooze and the polis have refused to evolve in a similar manner for obvious reasons and continue to wreak havoc on the body politick, greatly degrading the social hopes and also the quality of life of the citizenry

But the authority and status of the Forces have been deliberately and malevolently diluted by a rabid tribe that fears competition and the politicos have wholeheartedly bought the snake oil so eagerly sold to them.

Even the unreformed colonial polis lords it over them, every chance they get.
As long as the BIF was in charge of the hidden hands steered the ship of state as well as hobbling the all important military machine and foreign policy management.

That is why the pakis and the cheenis who once ran roughshod over the Indian establishment because they knew that they could tweak and bend it to their will with their network of babooze, lootyens pimps, and foreign controlled NGOs who traitorously pushed the aman ki tamasha and other poisonous narratives

Ever since the new Govt has stepped in, the cheeni and the paki have been left rudderless and clueless, as have been all the other BIF goras who got their tips directly from the babooze lootyens stables, and always knew which particular horse to put their money on

That is also why Modi and Jaishankar caught them so very unprepared for the ukraine stance taken by India and before that on the ladakh front. The pakis failed to make any headway on trade and their most favorite ploy of "people to people" contacts

Geopolitics may change but the terrain does not, especially where supreme national interests are concerned and the will to protect them is there for all to see.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

A beautiful post. Thank you Chetak-ji.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by titash »

Very nicely done chetak-ji
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Cyrano »

Excellent Chetak garu !
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

^^^^^^^

Rakesh ji, titash ji, and Cyrano ji

Thank you, one and all.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, Eventually IAF will get more than 42 combat squadrons but not because the chiefs want them, but because of Chinese challenge and strategic autonomy.

The current mindset of lusting for imported planes has to stop.
The new CDS also had Naval air force under his command and knows the concerns.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Ramana-ji, it might go beyond 42 units...but you hit the nail on the head - the mindset has to change.

The current lot at Air HQ has only that goal in mind.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

It will >42 which they can't even justify as to why they need even now.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Progress made in deliberations for Tri-Services theaterisation plan: IAF chief
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 567300.ece
26 June 2022
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Eventually IAF will get more than 42 combat squadrons but not because the chiefs want them, but because of Chinese challenge and strategic autonomy.

The current mindset of lusting for imported planes has to stop.
The new CDS also had Naval air force under his command and knows the concerns.

Why is the tail wagging the dog Ramana garu?

Why cannot Kadi Ninda tell the chiefs that this is not on?

Why cannot the Foreign Minister tell the Chiefs how this lust for imported maal puts the nation in a straight jacket? This AtmaNirbah thing is a joke without a narrative of its strategic implications which the forces seem not to have got / The MoD has not got...

These things do not happen unless the Government of the takes the pain to really understand the defence portfolio rather than leave it to the generals and assorted marshalls.

Defence as an integrated part of state policy - internal and external - not much has changed has it? What is the difference between this Sarkar and previous Sarkars?

The buck stops with the government!
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote:Progress made in deliberations for Tri-Services theaterisation plan: IAF chief
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 567300.ece
26 June 2022
Rakeshji I put it to you that theaterisation is not the problem. Rather it is that we have not over the years given thought to jointness that has permeated through every layer.

Every branch of the armed forces and every arm within that thinks of itself as an island un to itself.

These issues of theaterisation etc would be a blip if right from a very young age offrs and men were brought up with that concept.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:It will >42 which they can't even justify as to why they need even now.
Or perhaps the justification is tied into operational details that they don't want you and I to have?
Is the absence of something evidence that something is absent?
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Need more jointness, creation of air defence command may prove counterproductive: Air Chief



If he has courage in his statements he should resign.

His objections are straight out of OSS sabotage manual.
Making such speeches at this time is definitely sabotage.
What jointness?
All air defence of India will be IAF reponsibility.
Does he want each State Police to do that?
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:It will >42 which they can't even justify as to why they need even now.
Or perhaps the justification is tied into operational details that they don't want you and I to have?
Is the absence of something evidence that something is absent?

I have the chronology of the IAF squadrons' growth since 1947.
And what were the reasons.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by VinodTK »

ramana wrote:Need more jointness, creation of air defence command may prove counterproductive: Air Chief

If he has courage in his statements he should resign.

His objections are straight out of OSS sabotage manual.
Making such speeches at this time is definitely sabotage.
What jointness?
All air defence of India will be IAF reponsibility.
Does he want each State Police to do that?

+100%
Who ever is responsible for his selection did not do a good vetting before selecting him.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Atmavik »

Any news on CDS ?
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
Or perhaps the justification is tied into operational details that they don't want you and I to have?
Is the absence of something evidence that something is absent?

I have the chronology of the IAF squadrons' growth since 1947.
And what were the reasons.
Pray share Ramanaji
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

https://news.webindia123.com/news/Artic ... 63064.html

Air Defence command is proposed to be created by the Department of Military Affairs as part of the process to create theatre commands in the country to bring in more jointness among the three services for warfighting and operations.

"While there is a need for close coordination between all elements within the same airspace to ensure aerospace safety as well as effective Air Defence,cr eation of an air defence command may prove counterproductive because, Air Defence operations are inextricably linked to counter air operations and all offensive ops, as the success or failure of one, will dictate the demands on the other," Chaudhari said while addressing a seminar on air and missile defence organised by a tri-services think tank.

The IAF has been in opposition of the division of its combat assets into different theatres as it feels that its fighter aircraft can switch with ease from one front to the other.

The IAF chief further stated that air defence and offensive missions are interdependent and "if executed in isolation, these would not only be disjointed but also ineffective in design or execution of the joint strategy."

Chaudhari said that modern 4.5 and 5th generation aircraft have the omni-role capability and to restrict those aircraft to any one role would lead to their underutilisation.

"Flexibility, one of the characteristics of air power, gives a planner the freedom to swing roles depending on the air situation and this must be capitalised on,
" he added.

The IAF chief said that crystal ball gazing into the future, penetration by stealth platforms and low-cost drones, rockets and hypersonic projectiles will challenge our detection and interception capability.

"Thus, there is further research required in the field of persistent, multi-spectral, all-weather surveillance from space-based assets. We need to also look at the capabilities of high altitude long endurance and medium altitude long endurance remotely piloted aircraft to fill the surveillance voids.

"For destruction, we need to invest in technology such as Directed Energy Weapons, Laser dazzlers and multiple weapon systems to take on Multiple Independent Reentry Vehicles and hypersonic missiles," he said.

Citing examples of the ongoing conflicts in Saudi Arabia and other areas, Chaudhari said in view of the prevailing threat scenario in the country, utilization of aerial platforms by anti-national elements, against our vital strategic and military installations cannot be ruled out.

He said the ongoing conflict in Ukraine has once again brought into focus the effectiveness of man-portable air defence systems, especially in urban and semi-urban areas. (ANI)
I guess US was wrong to create NORAD if ACM VR Chaudhri was in charge!

I really don't know who is signalling with this speech.
He is also the COSC now.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by dinesha »

The delay in appointing a new CDS is disappointing
https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/ ... 83658.html
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by eklavya »

ramana wrote:
I guess US was wrong to create NORAD if ACM VR Chaudhri was in charge!

I really don't know who is signalling with this speech.
He is also the COSC now.
US and Canada do not share a border with their adversaries. The Atlantic Ocean separates North America from Europe and the Pacific Ocean separates North America from PRC. The geography is phenomenally advantageous. Defence of the US and Canadian “homeland airspace” is done by assets and personnel which would not overlap with assets that would have been used in offensive operations in any war with the USSR or PRC.

India’s situation is very different. Plus we have only 30 odd squadrons that have to conduct defensive and offensive operations in a potential two front collusive challenge. If the IAF had the resources and the geography of the USAF, the answer to the question would have been different.
AkshaySG
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by AkshaySG »

dinesha wrote:The delay in appointing a new CDS is disappointing
https://www.hindustantimes.com/opinion/ ... 83658.html
Agreed.
Even if any or the existing Chiefs or candidates didn't measure up to the brilliance or ideas of Gen Rawat it would have still been better to appoint someone to keep the power and command of the position active.

Now it looks like the government is second guessing or scared and gives a lot of power to the detractors of CDS and Theatreization. One of the ways to honor Gen Rawat's legacy would have been to take his work forward but instead we're stuck in the mud.

Was a failure from Day 1 to not have a automatic line of sucession for a post like this.
ks_sachin
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

They r still searching!!

The message it sends is lack of gumption to follow things through!!!

The result is forces continue to view govt and bureaucracy as idiots and play passive aggressive on reforms and weapons acquisition like MRFA!!!
pushkar.bhat
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by pushkar.bhat »

Given the lack of initiative in the appointment of the CDS it's adequately clear that the Government is sceptical of Jointness being created via the CDS Structure. Perhaps we need a more Indian way of achieving it.
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