CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

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ks_sachin
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

Suresh S wrote:In my dream last night I saw Lt General Y. K Joshi, I wonder why?
Because he is regarded as by far being the best chief we have had since his untimely demise.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Ks_sachin
SriKumar was quoting/addressing the former Defence Secy.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:Ks_sachin
SriKumar was quoting/addressing the former Defence Secy.
He did and while that is fine just because a former defence secretary let's not throw everything out he says outright - even if there is an ulterior motive. SriKumar had a beef with the article on the issue of "leadership" vs "planner" terminology so was querying him on what his definition of leadership was.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by SriKumar »

I would hate to increase moderator workload in moderating these threads, hence I'll keep it brief. The article's author stated in black and white that the role of a CDS is 'essentially a planner'. This is at best a simplistic reduction, and at the worst, borderline pejorative. Anyone in the armed services will have an issue with this seriously reductionist & trivializing/pejorative definition of such a senior position.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

I concur that Mohan Kumar was reverting to old babu control of CDS.
He is erroneous in the role of CDS.
It's fusion of civil-military leadership due to the bureaucratic setup of Ministry of India.
Ideally CDS should in hierarchy be equal to Secy Defence and in charge of military affairs and report to RM.

The org chart will evolve with time and challenges.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Prem Kumar pranam to your father for his service to the nation.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

"One such example is statutory matters relating to appeals , representations, which are at best handled by the civil service with more detachment."

Laughable nonsense by former Defence Secy.
They were so detached in last 70 years that they got away doing nothing.
Besides destroyed whatever benefits were doled out by delay and litigating.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:I

The org chart will evolve with time and challenges.
Along with those will evolve processes etc. For that we need to have an open mind and look at everything and all opinions to achieve the best possible outcomes.

Last from me on the matter anyway.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by AshishA »

Slightly OT. I had read somewhere that when General Sundarji took action against Chinese, Rajiv Gandhi summoned him to a cabinet briefing as south block had panicked. The good general explained why such action was required. But Rajiv Gandhi was still uncertain. So he looked around and asked what was their govt's policy on China. Someone in bengali accent replied (as per sundarji's account) "Madaam’s policy (referring to Indira Gandhi) on the Chinese was the same as Panditji’s.” A perplexed Rajiv asked "and what was Panditji's policy?" The same guy replied "To not upset the status quo on Sino-Indian Border". After that Rajiv declared "That will continue to be our policy"

The point here is Neta-Babu-Media nexus are incompetent, delusional and anti india in their dealings. They sometimes live in parallel universe. While civilian oversight must remain, but MoD needs to be wrested away from the Babooze. And MEA needs to be jolted to wake them up from their dreams of 'Status Quo' with china and 'peace' with Pakis.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Prem Kumar »

ramana wrote:Prem Kumar pranam to your father for his service to the nation.
Thank you Ji!
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Yagnasri »

ramana wrote:"One such example is statutory matters relating to appeals , representations, which are at best handled by the civil service with more detachment."
Sir Humphry would have been proud of this sentence.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by putnanja »

AshishA wrote:Slightly OT. I had read somewhere that when General Sundarji took action against Chinese, Rajiv Gandhi summoned him to a cabinet briefing as south block had panicked. The good general explained why such action was required. But Rajiv Gandhi was still uncertain. So he looked around and asked what was their govt's policy on China. Someone in bengali accent replied (as per sundarji's account) "Madaam’s policy (referring to Indira Gandhi) on the Chinese was the same as Panditji’s.” A perplexed Rajiv asked "and what was Panditji's policy?" The same guy replied "To not upset the status quo on Sino-Indian Border". After that Rajiv declared "That will continue to be our policy"

The point here is Neta-Babu-Media nexus are incompetent, delusional and anti india in their dealings. They sometimes live in parallel universe. While civilian oversight must remain, but MoD needs to be wrested away from the Babooze. And MEA needs to be jolted to wake them up from their dreams of 'Status Quo' with china and 'peace' with Pakis.
That attitude is alive and well. One just needs to read Nirupama Rao, the ex-Foreign secretary tweets to understand how the IFS at the top had a pliant view of external threats and almost dismissive attitude to gnawing of Indian territory by Chinese. They also have a very dim view of Indian armed forces capabilities and are unwilling to stick their head out to raise temperature at the borders even if absolutely required. Even though IA has demonstrated their capabilities wrt chinese recently, the IFS are still risk averse . I hope EAM Jaishankar will change that and empower them for a more robust thinking wrt Indian security.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by pushkar.bhat »

In all fairness the IFS Officers study China more closely than our General Staff and form their own assessment of what China can achieve based on their own on ground experience. An Indian response to the developing Chinese PLA modernisation requires some prerequisites including investment in Jointness and substantial investment in Fusion warfare which cannot be always imported. The absence of appropriate investments and reforms will force any reasonable analyst to then take a approach of maintaining status quo. As Military reforms gather pace and we start investing and experimenting with Fusion warfare we will also see a change in the way Indian Foreign policy analysts react to china.

Let's recognise the fact that the defensive attitude is driven not by sheer incompetence but instead due to the lack of a coherent strategy and preparedness to fight tomorrows wars. Sooner we see the attitude as a symptom and work to cover the gaps the better it will be for all of us.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

pushkar.bhat wrote:In all fairness the IFS Officers study China more closely than our General Staff and form their own assessment of what China can achieve based on their own on ground experience. An Indian response to the developing Chinese PLA modernisation requires some prerequisites including investment in Jointness and substantial investment in Fusion warfare which cannot be always imported. The absence of appropriate investments and reforms will force any reasonable analyst to then take a approach of maintaining status quo. As Military reforms gather pace and we start investing and experimenting with Fusion warfare we will also see a change in the way Indian Foreign policy analysts react to china.

Let's recognise the fact that the defensive attitude is driven not by sheer incompetence but instead due to the lack of a coherent strategy and preparedness to fight tomorrows wars. Sooner we see the attitude as a symptom and work to cover the gaps the better it will be for all of us.
The stage was set by the IA in 1967 during the battles of Nathu La and Cho La, on the border between cheen and Sikkim, where the cheeni were beaten and routed comprehensively and decisively.

The cheeni did not intervene in 1971 despite the pakis begging them to do so because they had already been taught a bitter lesson in '67 and have been unwilling to confront the IA directly ever since.

This view of the PLA has only been reinforced since the Galwan clash. This is one pasting that will haunt the CCP and the PLA for the longest time to come

Our Agni series of missiles have scared the very crap out of them. Bullies never fight against the odds.

the cheeni understand coercion and use of force but do not know what to do when confronted by a resolute adversary.

they threaten both India and taiwan but greatly fear the consequences of a one to one confrontation with taiwan because the western powers will simply not allow it without massive retaliation.

With India, both the CCP and the PLA are stumped because there is no way that they can take on and overpower either the IA or the Modi led GoI.

This confrontation that the cheeni have started has it's roots in India's blunt refusal to join the CPEC. From there on it simply spun out of cheeni control because Modi controlled the narrative thereafter.

Every action that Modi has taken, like banning their apps, trade restrictions, refusing entry to huawei and ZTE and other PLA owned assets has left them not only bleeding but also incredulous. Basically, Modi showed the world that if India can confront the cheeni, so could they.

Even the wuhan virus that xi unleashed has been defeated. Modi has turned that cheeni debacle into a global opportunity for India and that has generated a huge amount of goodwill.

Unfortunate for xi that the cheenis did not game trump into their risk universe because he shredded their hitherto manly image and left them bleeding.

a bigger bully than xi was on the rampage. Now xi does not dare to travel out of cheen because he greatly fears a coup against himself. He has stayed put at home for the past 21 months and not because of covid

our MEA pussies learn mandarin, drink tea from fine bone china, and swoon over brush stroke calligraphy from some long forgotten han dynasty, while trilling away in lyrical and harmonious mandarin.

the basics of the harsh mountain peaks of ladakh, the realities of the frozen environs of the Himalayas, and most importantly, the essentials of a "defence of the motherland" imperative have completely escaped them because these pussies have been ideologically conditioned over decades of obsequiousness, sycophancy, excessive deference and subservience to being grovelling, cringing and paying fearful homage to the cheeni, all in the name of some b@$t@rdized interpretation of feudalistic and counterproductive diplomacy.

Is it any surprise that every single one of these darbari and mafia family owned pussies is now comfortably ensconced in the bosom of some silly yet well paying ameriki thinktankis

How have the MEA suddenly grown a big hairy brown pair after Jaishankar took over or is it the new boss, new broom syndrome

we have, as a nation, needed to push back against the cheenis for the longest time but slimy sardars, beholden to the BIF led eyetalian mafia have listened to the diktats of their puppet masters and neutered the IA and cast aspersions on their abilities to take on the cheenis

signing secret MOUs with the CCP and having secret meetings with the cheeni ambassador in a dilli 5 star hotel especially when another Govt is in power is just plain gaddari and antinational

when the white skinned foreigner dares to sign such an agreement on behalf of a major Indian political party with the cheenis, it gives the cheenis all the more arrogance to deal contemptuously with brown skinned Indians whom they now see as mere slaves.

we are not going to be deterred by some specious arguments like:
Let's recognise the fact that the defensive attitude is driven not by sheer incompetence but instead due to the lack of a coherent strategy and preparedness to fight tomorrows wars
we recognize no such thing

we only see that the timid policy set by a rabidly entitled, eton schooled, oxbridge educated, colonial coolie, and an obvious cat's paw, who just did not have the intellectual heft of a village bumpkin, to handle a country like India

those timid policies have been followed unchallenged and un changed by allegedly well trained IFS officers who study China more closely than our General Staff and form their own assessment of what China can achieve based on their own on ground experience.

It was their bounden professional duty to continually re access and re evaluate policies and adapt to changing circumstances, especially after 1967 when ground realities had changed so dramatically. Instead, they made sure that this news never received the coverage that it deserved thus wantonly allowing the wounds to the national psyche inflicted after the 1962 defeat, to fester and suppurate.

where it actually matters, their ground experience is non existent or at best irrelevant, their assessment is grossly faulty and directed by darbari requirements to safeguard their futures and the keenly anticipated cushy post retirement sinecures

The morbid reality of those years of failures and appeasement is glaringly obvious today and one will never return to those days of diplomatic disasters and despair precipitated by these so called "IFS officers who study China more closely than our General Staff".

one is yet to hear of any such "IFS officer" who can competently read, understand and enumerate the salient features on a map which should be defended and not foolishly gifted away in "border negotiations" attended mostly by PLA officers from the other side.

ultimately, border negotiations are all about territorial integrity and India's land which the cheeni have grabbed by salami slicing, one slice at a time. It does not need clueless woke brown skins speaking mandarin and hell bent on appeasement of the cheeni because of "policy". It requires other professionals to clearly see what the cheeni are actually after in that specific region of the mountains and block them off.

where actually needed, on the massive balance of trade situation, these very IFS officers who study China more closely than our General Staff and form their own assessment of what China can achieve based on their own on ground experience. surprisingly did nothing and it seems nor did they even care to discuss the same with the cheenis.

Now with Jaishankar in the seat, all aspects with a bearing on bilateral relations are being discussed.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by pushkar.bhat »

Apologies to MOD's for the thread going OT -

Chetak Ji, you write fast and long and sometimes angry words. All the facts you state are known in Public Domain and not new, so I will not place a point by point rebuttal. Trust me I too am not happy when parties within India bend backwards to anyone inimical to our interests.

Before Xi came to the stage the disposition of the Chinese towards border management was very different. However, in the last 7-8 years the RMA on the Chinese side has been massive. What Xi has been able to ram through is worth studying. It's forced the PLA to turn on a dime. The PLA of today is very different from the PLA we fought at Nathu La or Sum Drong Chu or some other sector. Their ability to synthesise various instruments of coercion is worth studying. Our response to this change has been too little and too late. As a nation its only in the last 2 years that we have sat up and taken notice of the emergence of China at our Northern borders. We clearly need to invest disproportionately into not just military reforms but also into creating, experimenting and operationalising doctrine. Besides this we need to leapfrog into developing our MIC which is many years behind the capabilities of our adversory. AI, Unmanned, Networks and Civil Military Fusion is how China will fight their next war with us. We are yet to demonstrate our abilities in this domain.

I personally believe that China understands and acknowledges strength and power along with the willingness of their rival to use it. Our relations with China will improve only when they see us change the game we play. Till such point they will continue chiding us with with remarks that India is delusional with their Missile Success.

Recognise China is playing on a different pitch and is playing different game - We need to then up our game to match or surpass them. Alternately we need to change the rules of the game so substantially that they are forced into a loosing match.

When I said that the IFS Officers study China more than our General Staff that is because they are able to see the Big Picture of china and how it interacts across multiple spheres globally and multilaterally. This happens through their presence in China and through Indian Missions globally. Our General staff don't have that luxury.

The Foreign Service advices the civilian executive based on the picture that it see's. The Political executive then needs to synthesise all inputs (from Missions abroad, Domestic, Economic and Military) to take the final call. I am yet to see a comprehensive all of the country approach to the challenge the Rise of China poses to us. The day I see that being articulated and operationalised I will also turn a Hawk.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Cyrano »

One of your best posts Chetak ji !

Hard hitting truth, but the worst is behind us, I think. With us old fogey bhakts already paving the way, Gen Z & millennial middle class small town born khattar-desi Indian youth won't let the slide happen again, for a couple of generations at least.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by nandakumar »

AshishA wrote:Slightly OT. I had read somewhere that when General Sundarji took action against Chinese, Rajiv Gandhi summoned him to a cabinet briefing as south block had panicked. The good general explained why such action was required. But Rajiv Gandhi was still uncertain. So he looked around and asked what was their govt's policy on China. Someone in bengali accent replied (as per sundarji's account) "Madaam’s policy (referring to Indira Gandhi) on the Chinese was the same as Panditji’s.” A perplexed Rajiv asked "and what was Panditji's policy?" The same guy replied "To not upset the status quo on Sino-Indian Border". After that Rajiv declared "That will continue to be our policy"

The point here is Neta-Babu-Media nexus are incompetent, delusional and anti india in their dealings. They sometimes live in parallel universe. While civilian oversight must remain, but MoD needs to be wrested away from the Babooze. And MEA needs to be jolted to wake them up from their dreams of 'Status Quo' with china and 'peace' with Pakis.
I wish Rajiv Gandhi had asked the question, " What would not upset China?" I wonder what that civil servant with a Bengali accented English would have said. Possibly " Allow China to do whatever it wanted". That wouldn't seem like much of a policy. But I wouldn't put it past Rajiv Gandhi to say, " Yes, lets do ir".
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Why the choice of CDS rests with Prime Minister Modi
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-12-13
13 Dec 2021
Prime Minister Modi was the architect of the CDS post, through which he hoped to steer reforms in the armed forces.
General Naravane’s appointment will also fit with the recommendation made by Lt General Shekatkar--for the first two CDSes to be from the army and both former chiefs. This recommendation was made because the committee felt that India’s present unresolved boundaries with Pakistan and China are on land and could be better understood by an army officer.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:Ks_sachin
SriKumar was quoting/addressing the former Defence Secy.
He did and while that is fine just because a former defence secretary let's not throw everything out he says outright - even if there is an ulterior motive. SriKumar had a beef with the article on the issue of "leadership" vs "planner" terminology so was querying him on what his definition of leadership was.
and
ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:I

The org chart will evolve with time and challenges.
Along with those will evolve processes etc. For that we need to have an open mind and look at everything and all opinions to achieve the best possible outcomes.

Last from me on the matter anyway.
What is it you really want to say?
That Mohan Kumar whose article is to undo the entire CDs concept is an opinion that matters?
You don't have to eat the whole egg to know it's bad.
And CDS position was created after 20 years of deliberation and feedback from Mohan Kumar-type folks.
And GOI has had an open mind for 20 years on this matter.
The PLA has 4 theatres total and is helping reform Pak military too.
India has 17 theatres and MoD bureaucracy is constantly undercutting the military.
They still can do that.
So thank you for the last word.

Will issue ban on people who push for diluting the CDS post.
We need to take stand.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

nandakumar wrote:
AshishA wrote:Slightly OT. I had read somewhere that when General Sundarji took action against Chinese, Rajiv Gandhi summoned him to a cabinet briefing as south block had panicked. The good general explained why such action was required. But Rajiv Gandhi was still uncertain. So he looked around and asked what was their govt's policy on China. Someone in bengali accent replied (as per sundarji's account) "Madaam’s policy (referring to Indira Gandhi) on the Chinese was the same as Panditji’s.” A perplexed Rajiv asked "and what was Panditji's policy?" The same guy replied "To not upset the status quo on Sino-Indian Border". After that Rajiv declared "That will continue to be our policy"

The point here is Neta-Babu-Media nexus are incompetent, delusional and anti india in their dealings. They sometimes live in parallel universe. While civilian oversight must remain, but MoD needs to be wrested away from the Babooze. And MEA needs to be jolted to wake them up from their dreams of 'Status Quo' with china and 'peace' with Pakis.
I wish Rajiv Gandhi had asked the question, " What would not upset China?" I wonder what that civil servant with a Bengali accented English would have said. Possibly " Allow China to do whatever it wanted". That wouldn't seem like much of a policy. But I wouldn't put it past Rajiv Gandhi to say, " Yes, lets do ir".
I submit its typical Gandhi generation "Heads I win tails you lose!"
This feigning ignorance of policy is a feint to avert blame if things go south.

In fact Rahul Gandhi without any official status signed an accord with Beijing in 2008 which is still secret.
We see that UPA allowed Salami slicing by PRC and an annual $50B trade deficit over ten years.
By 2020 when trade was interrupted India had a cumulative trade deficit with China of $550B.
So think about that with an open mind.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

pushkar.bhat wrote:Apologies to MOD's for the thread going OT -

Chetak Ji, you write fast and long and sometimes angry words. All the facts you state are known in Public Domain and not new, so I will not place a point by point rebuttal. Trust me I too am not happy when parties within India bend backwards to anyone inimical to our interests.

Before Xi came to the stage the disposition of the Chinese towards border management was very different. However, in the last 7-8 years the RMA on the Chinese side has been massive. What Xi has been able to ram through is worth studying. It's forced the PLA to turn on a dime. The PLA of today is very different from the PLA we fought at Nathu La or Sum Drong Chu or some other sector. Their ability to synthesise various instruments of coercion is worth studying. Our response to this change has been too little and too late. As a nation its only in the last 2 years that we have sat up and taken notice of the emergence of China at our Northern borders. We clearly need to invest disproportionately into not just military reforms but also into creating, experimenting and operationalising doctrine. Besides this we need to leapfrog into developing our MIC which is many years behind the capabilities of our adversory. AI, Unmanned, Networks and Civil Military Fusion is how China will fight their next war with us. We are yet to demonstrate our abilities in this domain.

I personally believe that China understands and acknowledges strength and power along with the willingness of their rival to use it. Our relations with China will improve only when they see us change the game we play. Till such point they will continue chiding us with with remarks that India is delusional with their Missile Success.

Recognise China is playing on a different pitch and is playing different game - We need to then up our game to match or surpass them. Alternately we need to change the rules of the game so substantially that they are forced into a loosing match.

When I said that the IFS Officers study China more than our General Staff that is because they are able to see the Big Picture of china and how it interacts across multiple spheres globally and multilaterally. This happens through their presence in China and through Indian Missions globally. Our General staff don't have that luxury.

The Foreign Service advices the civilian executive based on the picture that it see's. The Political executive then needs to synthesise all inputs (from Missions abroad, Domestic, Economic and Military) to take the final call. I am yet to see a comprehensive all of the country approach to the challenge the Rise of China poses to us. The day I see that being articulated and operationalised I will also turn a Hawk.

Pushkar ji

Our systemic responses are at times, disjointed because the system is set up that way. The fruits of the colonial policy of divide and (hopefully) rule are still paying off

Some of our babooze are ideologically corrupted and BIF cliques have formed that need to shape these responses. The hold of these cliques are deep and they pop up when the vested interests are appreciably affected.

I stick to only what's in the public domain because that is the safest. Constraints are entirely warranted because that limits the narrative and contains the fallout.

Besides, telling tales out of school is entirely traceable and if found guilty can have unwanted consequences.

Modi, Jaishankar, the NSA, (and for some time now, the martyred CDS) have managed to change the narrative and give it a new directionality, sometimes flummoxing the pakis, as well as, the cheenis. The new resolve can be seen and that frustrates the chacha bhatija CPEC jehadi team which counted on a largish set of track thoo personalities to get an accurate read on India's responses.

The earlier obdurate responses of the MEA despite requests from the PMO to the contrary was seen as "we know best and you are just a hyped up RSS guy from the boondocks", until the "departure" of an overreaching sujatha singh, who should have known better but unilaterally chose to do the bidding of certain vested lobbies and that, unfortunately, resulted in obama becoming a mere atithi, downgraded from the exalted atithi devo bhava. One minority, in particular, paid a very heavy price for that ill advised intervention that was orchestrated via an ameriki entity

Jaishankar was brought in and the MEA has donned a new foreign policy attire that is both mindful and responsive. outside intervention and vested interests are kept at arm's length and the leaks have been aggressively plugged.

It's difficult for the MEA to see the big picture when all the churn and burn that affects India's territorial sovereignty is taking place on borders that are being sliced up and swallowed. The IA which faces the daily brunt didn't have a say in the proceedings for a very very long time. Things have changed and a new balance is being found.

But that colonial mentality still remains in the rank and file, especially in the MEA, MHA, and the MoD

All of what you say is valid but a messy democracy like ours takes time and makes compromises that extend timelines and costs.

Much of what you have in your wishlist is already being implemented and time is needed for the efforts to fructify.

other obdurates like govinda rajan and sujatha singh are deeply embedded and gnawing away at the vitals.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:Why the choice of CDS rests with Prime Minister Modi
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-12-13
13 Dec 2021
Prime Minister Modi was the architect of the CDS post, through which he hoped to steer reforms in the armed forces.
General Naravane’s appointment will also fit with the recommendation made by Lt General Shekatkar--for the first two CDSes to be from the army and both former chiefs. This recommendation was made because the committee felt that India’s present unresolved boundaries with Pakistan and China are on land and could be better understood by an army officer.
The chatterati don't get it. Gen Rawat was selected not due to seniority. He was the best officer for the job.
Same with whoever is the next CDS.
And Lt Gen Shekatkar's recommendation was unfair.
For it implies rotation.
That is also not the criteria.
The criteria is a proven record.
The August 15 announcement was swiftly followed by another in November 2019 just days before General Bipin Rawat was to step down. There’s little to suggest what went into the decision to appoint the CDS or whether other candidates were considered for it. (One service chief who retired in 2019, when asked whether he would be CDS, is believed to have said “it’s for Bipin”). General Rawat as then army chief was the Chairman CoSC and the seniormost service chief, which made his step-up into the CDS’s office a logical conclusion. This seems to be the case even now with the present army chief, General Manoj Mukund Naravane. The army chief, the seniormost service chief and a low-profile officer with an impeccable reputation, is believed to be in line for the next CDS.
When Gen Rawat was appointed IA chief GOI showed seniority is not the criterion.
So get that out of the mind.
CDS is the fusion of civil-military streams to achieve synergy.
Synergy is a must to prevent silos that lead to a mismatch in procurement and warfighting.
It is the military Commander-in-Chief while the President is the constitutional commander-in-chief.
Under fear of coups and bureaucratic advice, the warrant of precedence has been water down to the detriment of the nation.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by eklavya »

^^^^
The “fear of coups” stuff is truly unacceptable. It casts shadow of doubt on an institution that is a committed defender of the constitution and democracy. This commitment is also non negotiable.

We are fighting to defend core values of Constitution of India: Army Chief General Naravane
Army Chief General Manoj Mukund Naravane on Saturday said that the armed forces owe their allegiance to the Constitution of India and are fighting to defend the core values of justice, liberty, equality and fraternity that define the Preamble.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Prasad »

How will the rank & file babus in any ministry let alone MEA which is supposed to be the creme de la creme of UPSC selectees take your stand when they come up reading chindu and listen to lectures by stalwarts who have overseen sharm el sheikh kinda debacles?
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Atmavik »

Prasad wrote:How will the rank & file babus in any ministry let alone MEA which is supposed to be the creme de la creme of UPSC selectees take your stand when they come up reading chindu and listen to lectures by stalwarts who have overseen sharm el sheikh kinda debacles?

there are some like G Parthasarthy (an IA officer) and vivek katju. not everyone buys into the Chindus propaganda.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Be it as may, the civil services need a big bang reform if they think they still can undercut Modi 2.0 despite 303 MPs.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

eklavya wrote:^^^^
The “fear of coups” stuff is truly unacceptable. It casts shadow of doubt on an institution that is a committed defender of the constitution and democracy. This commitment is also non negotiable.
Fear of coup is an excuse - plain and simple.

It has always been the goal of the Congress Party - since independence - to keep India militarily weak. This idea evolved from Mahatma Gandhi's non-violent struggle that he wielded against the British. Nehru had grandeur visions of India being a beacon of light among nations and living in a blissful state of peace and love. It was some gibberish horse shit that he peddled. When General Rob Lockhart - post Independent India's first Army Chief - went to see Nehru about a strategic defence plan, this is how Nehru reacted... :roll:

'Nehru wanted Army scrapped'
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/ne ... Jqz9O.html
26 Aug 2006
"Shortly after independence, General Lockhart as the army chief took a strategic plan to the prime minister, asking for a government directive on the defence policy. He came back to Jick's office shell-shocked. When asked what happened, he replied, The PM took one look at my paper and blew his top. 'Rubbish! Total rubbish!' he shouted. 'We don't need a defence plan. Our policy is ahimsa (non-violence). We foresee no military threats. Scrap the army! The police are good enough to meet our security needs'," the Daily Times quotes the book as saying.
This harebrained policy continued with his daughter and under whose leadership the Congress Party famously coined ---> India is Indira and Indira is India. Makes one sick just reading it. Field Marshal Manekshaw and Indira's interactions were quite well known. When Field Marshal Manekshaw was getting more limelight than Madam, it made a number of Congress sycophants very queasy. Rumours then started of Field Marshal Manekshaw of overtaking the country. He was summoned to the office of the PM and he had to assure Madam that he harboured no such desire. The policy continued with Rajiv Gandhi and Manmohan Singh. Keep India militarily weak and keep her reliant on foreign powers. A strong military will upstage the Congress Party. That is the fear.

The end goal is always the upliftment of the Gandhi Dynasty. Without the Gandhi Dynasty, there is no India. No one upstages the Gandhis, even if it is within the Congress Party i.e. Jyotiraditya Scindia who eventually left the party and joined the BJP. Sachin Pilot came close to leaving the party, but he got roped back into the Congress abyss.

Nehru had this twisted idea that in order to make India truly secular, the majority in India must do everything in their power to ensure co-existence with the minority. It is dhimmi behaviour designed to mentally subjugate the Hindu in his own country. This dhimmi behaviour has permeated into every fabric of Indian society - Bureaucracy, Government, Policy Decisions, Politics, etc. The Hindu who speaks Hindi is looked down upon, because he speaks Hindi. That is a language of servants. Congress only speaks English, the language of their master. The Hindu who asserts his rights in his own country is dangerous to the secular fabric of the country. That is the strategy that the Congress Party consistently plays.

I am not even a Hindu and I find this policy to be dangerous. I am a moderator, otherwise I would have used some other language.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

chetak wrote:[quote="Rakesh]


But that colonial mentality still remains in the rank and file, especially in the MEA, MHA, and the MoD
[/quote]

Admiral that colonial mentality is a reflection of our society. I see it every day here in Oz where I live. We Indians have a deeply ingrained mentality of putting the white man on the pedestal when in front of him and then criticising them behind their back (no b..ls to be frank and honest) and being generally very non-supportive of other Indians doing well. On top of that a general tendency to cut corners where ever possible.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin, where is that quote from in your post? Perhaps my old age is getting to me, but I don't remember typing that. But I agree.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by disha »

It is disheartening that we lose our beloved Army General & CDS and before the ashes are cold, the babus pop in trying to get a share for themselves.

Let me explain. Babus are for babus, of babus, and by babus. Nation comes last, babus come first. In the babuzone I am put IAS, IFS primarily. The IPS and Army at least have skin in the game. And nobody considers Armed forces as babus anyway. Yes there may be some paper pushers in the armed forces, but they are cogs in the wheels. Not the wheels themselves.

IAS, IFS do not have a skin in the game and is best exemplified by this list of top 10 corrupt babus compiled sometime in 2012 https://starsunfolded.com/list-of-most- ... -in-india/

The above list is an equal opportunity of class, caste, and religion. Do not believe me? Check this link out https://www.livemint.com/news/india/581 ... 45351.html

People here fondly remember the Khobragade incident. She (and her dad) were corrupt to the core. And then some of us missed this https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... 28649.html

And as far as the allegiance of IFS officers is concerned, the allegiance of ex-IFS officer and ex-VP Hamid Ansari, ex-IFS officer Nirupama Menon Rao etc is well known. In fact, I am channeling my inner Meira Kumar and telling "Aap Baith Jaiye (please sit down)" for any Baboo piping up and requesting more power.

It is also a well-known fact that PM Modi himself publicly stated that the baboos spoiled 5 years of his admin.

---

On the scale of babudom, the state sales tax baboos are at the bottom of being termites. They have preyed on ordinary common Indian citizens their life and come back as mosquitoes in their next life. Since the vritti (nature) of blood sucking does not go away. I have seen ordinary small business people driven to sheer tears, agony and despair to see their entire produce go waste just because a baboon at the octroi decides to bring in an obscure act and finds a technical fault and wants to prove his sheer power over hapless citizens.

The arrogance of the IAS baboos is legendary. Right from getting the signature of "gazetted officers" to nixing government policies. The sheer corruption among IAS baboos is no less.

As for the IFS baboos, looking at the likes of ex-VP Hamid Ansari, Khobragade, and Nirupama Menon itself confirms where their allegiances lie. Definitely not to the people of India.

Here is something which this august forum is very familiar with:
For more than a year, three Indian bureaucrats ignored a request for snowmobiles from soldiers stationed in an icy border wasteland. Now, the angry defense minister is reportedly sending the officials to the country's equivalent of Siberia.
---

If the discussion here was to limit the power and interference of a baboo, then that would be the most welcome discussion. However, what I find is stale nonsense being thrown around like "coup".

Even in Pakistan, where the army has "coup"ed several times and the neighboring cheen where the party in power has its own army (and hence in perpetual coup against the interest of the common chinese citizens), the fear of a rogue general or CDS taking over the state overtly is considered very remote.

As for as the covert control, the danger from un-accountable baboos sitting in NACs is more clear and present and has happened before.

All in all,

* India needs a CDS (without any clipped wings)
* India needs theatre commands
* India needs to embrace Make in Bharat completely
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

disha wrote:
All in all,

* India needs a CDS (without any clipped wings)
* India needs theatre commands
* India needs to embrace Make in Bharat completely
Sirji completely concur with the above points. In addition, I would add that we need a proper articulation of how the armed forces act as furtherance of our diplomacy and polity. There is a disconnect.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

Please don't add babu functions to the current situation.
It gives them a wedge to appoint an IFS inside DMA.
Thanks.
As for furthering polity, it is not a CDS mandate which is given by the PM.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ramana »

I will quote from Claueswitz "On War" *
In his clarification of military theory Clausewitz said, "The activities characteristic of war may be split into two main categories: those that are merely preparation for war, and war proper." All that is required from the first group, he said, is "the end product"-trained and equipped fighting forces. "The theory of war proper, on the other hand, is concerned with the use of these means, once they have been developed, for the purposes of the war."'
Since 1947, the Ministry of Defence(RM) essentially failed the first task ie preparation for war due to a variety of reasons.
No need to rehash the subject.

This led to the lapses in the second part that is war proper.
Repeatedly war proper has been an ad-hoc response since all the wars chronicled by many scholars.
Repeatedly in midst of war proper, GOI scrambles to procure emergency weapons from friendly nations.
If the MoD had done their job properly(!), the services could conduct war proper.

After CDS Gen Rawat was appointed on 1 Jan 2020, we saw Galwan attack by PRC and the quick holistic response in moving forces, capturing Kailash heights, acquiring war supplies like Excalibur shells, Sig Sauer rifles, cold-weather clothes from US stocks, Hammer bombs for Rafale, flying P-8Is over the Himalayas to augment the air observation resources, the contract signing for Tejas Mk1A all were done with synergy. And who knows what else.

We had none of this under the old system whose opinions some here want to be considered.

The old system was the babus decide the policy of who is the enemy with guidance from corrupt politicians.(Congress which signs Beijing Accord in 2008)
The military comes back with requirements to implement the policy.
Then the babus will cut and pare the list down to suit the budget.
And initiate procurement via Chandigarh lobby and political party minions like Ahmed Patel.
Halfway through the procurement vested interests leak to Coupta who runs the story of corruption and the deal gets suspended midway and the procurement ostracised. (Bofors, HDW, Augusta, Denel).
conflict at borders.
And Army gives brave statements that "will fight with what we have!"
And sends young soldiers with souped-up 0.22 guns to fight the entrenched enemy.
And we end up with martyrs threads.
CDDS pushed for Sig Sauer that kills the enemy dead at a kilometer.
We don't hear stories of two terrorists dead and 8 soldiers wounded or killed.
Or the Excalibur shells that knock out Paki bunkers and bridges with one to two shots.


Note: CDDS is an outgrowth of the KRC report written by the doyen of Indian strategists K. Subrahmanyam garu.
It was discussed and re-hashed for 20 years.
He wanted no repeat of Kargil-type war and wanted structures and procedures to fight the next wars in the foreseeable future.
He always said about Indian penchant for:

"Yuddha kaale
Shastra bhyaasa"
i.e. We want to learn how to use weapons when the war starts.





Of his 50 year vision already 20 years is wasted by babudom in cohort with some misguided service members.
Gen Rawat like Lord Kitchener identified the primary task.
Fight the Chinese. (Kitchener said Defend NW border for British India)
And like Kitchener, Rawat worked to create four theatre commands to ensure unity of purpose and force.
So what unfriendly opinion from a babu we should consider?



* I could Chanakya but will be labeled Hindutvawadi!
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by ks_sachin »

Ramana garu please quote Chanakya to your hearts content. Chanakya's nitis transcend religion.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Cyrano »

Hindutvavadi is a badge to be worn proudly ! :)
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by disha »

Sometimes to get the message across, it is better to quote the western sources to the anglophiles. Anglophiles do not comprehend that Indians had developed a war fighting capability several thousand years back.

I am still not able to recover from the nonsense of "coup" as a danger waved by the anti-CDS gang.

I think such coupta-vadis or rather such couptatva-vadis must hang their heads in shame. These guys will go "Visheraya", "Visheshraya" instead of coming together and stating that

1. India needs a warfighting capability
2. India's warfighting capability must be largely homegrown with judicious inputs from abroad
3. India's warfighting capability is decided by the strategic interest of the country and its people
4. India's strategic interest and independence is sacrosanct, that is, it is not to whims of a political party or a person to give it away (think CONgoons and Lehru here)
5. All other functions (IFS, IAS) are subsidiary to India's strategic interest.

India is already fighting a 2.5 front war. It does not need additional moderation from IFS babooze sitting abroad blowing wind*

*Sorry for the harsh words. However, given the Sharm-al-shaikh, the utterances of ombaba and lecture to India on Indian soil, khobragade incident, the coup theory purveyors, holding cheen and bakis in high esteem, hyphenating with pakistan etc show the career IFS babu in poor light. The wikileaks clearly indicated that the briefs sent by the Indian missions abroad is anything but brief. They are long winded prose. Extremely good English but really low on actionable content.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

After Visa complained to US govt about Indian govt promoting RuPay, Modi govt announces incentive scheme for RuPay and BHIM-UPI

would anyone like to guess what would have been the reaction of the colonially minded IFS and the slimy sardar to this complaint by a powerful ameriki company against India to the U.S. Trade Representative (USTR) Katherine Tai and their collective, sardar + MEA, reaction to solve this issue, if indeed the matters had gone so far, up to the USTR, without the MEA scrambling, post haste, to appease the amerikis as opposed to the contrast to how Modi has reacted

The MEA has had the PM's personal ear since the neverwho days, when neverwho, nepotistically and arbitrarily appointed his unpad and not even high school passed sister vijaylakshmi pandit to the IFS
Following India's freedom from British occupation in 1947 she entered the diplomatic service and became India's ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1947 to 1949, the United States and Mexico from 1949 to 1951, Ireland from 1955 to 1961 (during which time she was also the Indian High Commissioner to the United Kingdom), and Spain from 1958 to 1961. Between 1946 and 1968, she headed the Indian delegation to the United Nations. In 1953, she became the first woman President of the United Nations General Assembly

She never received any formal education.
wasn't this also how our "negotiators and track thoo bus conductors/interlocutors", were appointed, including the outstandingly disastrous dialogists, Dilip Padgaonkar, M. M. Ansari, and Radha Kumar, on cashmere and dubious Lambah, on pukestan, each behaving like a plenipotentiary at large when their roles were extremely limited by the calamitous constraints imposed by the pakis and other BIF.

all these bus conductors/interlocutors talk about "a settlement" with the cashmeris and the pakis that India has to do but don't seem to have the testimonials to specify exactly what that "settlement" is, for the obvious fear of getting lynched and publicly stoned on the roads. Some of these bus conductors/interlocutors even go so far as to say that "India’s position on Jammu & Kashmir is legally, politically and historically correct" and yet they need India to make "a settlement".

So the pakis know from the weak kneed positions taken by India during all the earlier "negotiations" the pakis sustained efforts in track thoo will pay off sooner or later and all the pakis need to continue doing is “Ek dhakka aur do, Hindustan ko tod do”

If they are so sure that the Indian people will not accept this "settlement", which is the primary reason for their public reticence, why did they ever agree with the pakis that India needs to make "a settlement".

And, to a man, (or woman) they all come back, braying like donkeys about the paki hospitality, culture, refinement, and sufi poetry

This is where an inspired CDS like Gen Rawat played a crucial role, opening up options that were never used before or even imagined as possible by the IFS babooze.

A Straight shooting CDS and being outspoken without fear of the consequences is a valuable asset, especially in shadow diplomacy where everything happens "ishara se" including stabbing the country in the back.
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by Rakesh »

Tweet is dated today - 15 Dec 2021 and as I type this, the tweet is an hour old.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 86209?s=20 ---> The government has appointed General MM Naravane, Chief of Army Staff, as the Chairman of Chiefs of Staff Committee (Chairman, CoSC).
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Re: CDS Appointment & Command Restructuring: News & Discussions

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:Tweet is dated today - 15 Dec 2021 and as I type this, the tweet is an hour old.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 86209?s=20 ---> The government has appointed General MM Naravane, Chief of Army Staff, as the Chairman of Chiefs of Staff Committee (Chairman, CoSC).

Sirji,

just asking onlee....

wasn't the CoSC slot discontinued after the creation of the CDS....

Maybe it's an indication of things to come
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