India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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SriKumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 08 Jun 2020 00:17

yensoy wrote:
amar_p wrote:If India's demand is that Chinese Army must withdraw to April's "status quo ante" positions, then we are not imposing any costs for this Chinese misadventure. Makes us look weak to the Chinese. There has to be a punitive element in our demands so that the other side thinks twice before taking any aggressive steps in the future.

I don't think so. It will be April status quo + we continue construction, and that was our intention in the first place. Of course in a settlement both sides will have to give up something but it appears to me that we will not compromise on our plan to construct the spine road to DBO; regarding the spurs, it is something which may have to be sacrificed in parts for the time being. That's only my uninformed reading of the situation.
Public domain information is limited but it appears that this is indeed the position of the GOI. Per an IndiaToday article posted by g.sarkar in the previous page, China's problem (atleast this is what was stated at the General's meeting on Saturday) is that India is buidling roads and wants India to stop. Modi already has answered that publicly 10 days ago by shipping 12,000 additional workers for road construction. So he increased the pace. China should expect this from this govt.

In general: As for losing face, China lost face very publicly in Dokalam when India went into Bhutanese territory and stopped Chinese army from building a road to Bhutan. GOI did not give them any cover to save face (as in 'both sides agreed to withdraw and follow principles of Panchsheel/Wuhan Spirit'). The road work by Chinese army was focilbly stopped in non-Indian terrority (not sure why they would expect India to acquiese road-building in India).

PS.: Now may be a good time for people to buy/read poster Deans' book (written a year ago) now on AMazon: 2022- India's Two-front War
https://www.amazon.com/2022-Indias-two- ... 1091617422
Last edited by SriKumar on 08 Jun 2020 00:26, edited 1 time in total.

ldev
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 08 Jun 2020 00:25

I think that in the event of war on the border, India should concentrate on getting just enough territory to recoup ground lost in the last few years because to capture and hold large swatches of ground on the Tibet plateau will be a logistical nightmare. But it should open a naval front and sink a couple of PLAAN ships which are lurking around the Indian Ocean. And for good measure stop a few oil tankers going to China from the Gulf. That will motivate China to really concentrate on settling the border issue.

Also I will be surprised if India is not getting ISR data given that COMCASA/CISMOA is operational.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 08 Jun 2020 00:42

Is your last sentence your guess or its news?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 08 Jun 2020 00:45

ramana wrote:Is your last sentence your guess or its news?

My guess. It will never be publicized/acknowledged. But it provides a secure data link to US origin platforms operated by India. Chief among them is the P-8 which has been used in Doklam (when COMCASA was not operational). Although there are no reports in the current standoff of the P-8 having been deployed north.......

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ManuJ » 08 Jun 2020 00:48

Pakistan occupied POK at the time of independence when Indian and Pakistan armies had rough parity. It's only in the recent past (in sync with the Indian economy) that Indian military has moved ahead to have a decisive edge against Pakistan. This also proves the point that it's much easier to hold on to territory than to try to dislodge an entrenched enemy from it.
US fight for independence was on its own soil, with a large ocean separating it from Britain.
Israel's victory against the Arabs was a fight for survival in its own homeland. Though conceded that it's probably the only valid example in recent past of a small nation taking on a much larger enemy (on paper at least) and prevailing.

What is being proposed here is that India attack China and hive off Tibet. That's unrealistic based on today's economic and military strengths of the two countries. India can and will defend itself, but at this time it does not have the strength to go on a large offensive. For now, it needs to manage China and focus on building up its economy and its military strength. It should pursue a single-minded aim of achieving economic parity with China in the next 20 years. Then we can talk.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ManuJ » 08 Jun 2020 00:49

From Print.in, an interesting detail:
There were multiple rounds of meetings, including sessions on point of contention in the Pangong Lake where the Chinese have built a bunker and moat-like structure between Finger 3 and 4 to prevent Indian patrol teams from moving ahead.

https://theprint.in/defence/april-status-quo-discussed-as-india-china-generals-hold-marathon-meeting-in-ladakh/437050/

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby schinnas » 08 Jun 2020 00:58

Isn't there an ITBP camp at the base of finger 4? How can they build bunker between finger 3 and 4? How accurate if Print.in?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2020 01:09

What the current crisis reiterates is that we must expect the unexpected from both Pak and China.Both sides have used meaningless diplomacy to lull us into a false sense of security time and time again.Take recent history over the last 2 decades.
Kargil.Taken by surprise. Series of major terror attacks from 26/11,attack on Parliament, major terror strikes in Kashmir, all taken by surprise resulting in our reactive strikes,surgical and Balakot. But these were ,and will be in the future too be insufficient to deter Pak which is supported to the hilt by its " all- weather" patron,China.

With China,Doklam appeared out of nowhere.Surprise again. Ever since the arrival of PM Modi,the Chin fuhrer has been itching to teach him and India another lesson. The contrast between Mr.Modi and Snake-oil- Singh couldn't be greater.The latter,a genial geriatric gent who couldn't harm a fly, who had little vision of India reaching its full potential as a global power in all dimensions especially in military might.After Mr.Modi sat in the PM's chair, or rather travelled round the globe in a hectic outreach ptogramme to tell the world that India was open for business ,it worried China and its pretender as " Chairman" for life like Mao.
India demanding to be treated as an equal with China is completely unacceptable to China. After Doklam, XI has quietly planned this surprise for us, with perfect timing as we are in the midst of this global pandemic also orchestrated by China.

Let's not deny the fact that the IA were taken by surprise with the intrusions into our territory,but have responded with alacrity erecting a wall of steel to stop the Chinese. As reports say,China wants us to refrain from beefing up our border infrastructure ,while it massively continues its OBOR masterplan! Typical of Chinese bullying tactics to achieve its political objectives without having to go to war. Who does that remind us of in the past? One Adolf Hitler,who got his way first with the Sudetenland,Austrian
" Anschluss",ignored the humiliating restrictions of the treaty of Versailles preventing a German military build up ,and then gobbled up Czechoslovakia in the infamous Munich agreement with Chamberlain proudly proclaiming " peace in our time"!

Appeasement of Hitler we see today once again with China and XI.The islands and atolls of the ICS ,Mischief Reef,et al,have been gobbled up by the dragon. Expanded in size with land reclamation into fully equipped military bases,airfields,piers,etc.Hong Kong is rapidly going the way of Czechoslovakia,but Taiwan however would be the equivalent of Poland which would bring about war between the US and China. XI fondly thinks he can skinch on Indian territory,with his mission creep, as Hitler did incorporating the Sudetenland and Austria with the Anschluss.Ar.Pradesh let's not forget is to him " S.Tibet"! It has to be " unified" at some point of time. These absurd demands from China make it abundantly clear that the Chins want NO meaningful settlement of the border,but just continue their strategy from one Indian PM to the other,waiting for the opportnuity to teach us another lesson.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 08 Jun 2020 01:12

Philip wrote:What the current crisis reiterates is that we must expect the unexpected from both Pak and China.Both sides have used meaningless diplomacy to lull us into a false sense of security time and time again.Take recent history over the last 2 decades.
Kargil.Taken by surprise. Series of major terror attacks from 26/11,attack on Parliament, major terror strikes in Kashmir, all taken by surprise resulting in our reactive strikes,surgical and Balakot. But these were ,and will be in the future too be insufficient to deter Pak which is supported to the hilt by its " all- weather" patron,China.

With China,Doklam appeared out of nowhere.Surprise again. Ever since the arrival of PM Modi,the Chin fuhrer has been itching to teach him and India another lesson. The contrast between Mr.Modi and Snake-oil- Singh couldn't be greater.The latter,a genial geriatric gent who couldn't harm a fly, who had little vision of India reaching its full potential as a global power in all dimensions especially in military might.After Mr.Modi sat in the PM's chair, or rather travelled round the globe in a hectic outreach ptogramme to tell the world that India was open for business ,it worried China and its pretender as " Chairman" for life like Mao.
India demanding to be treated as an equal with China is completely unacceptable to China. After Doklam, XI has quietly planned this surprise for us, with perfect timing as we are in the midst of this global pandemic also orchestrated by China.

Let's not deny the fact that the IA were taken by surprise with the intrusions into our territory,but have responded with alacrity erecting a wall of steel to stop the Chinese. As reports say,China wants us to refrain from beefing up our border infrastructure ,while it massively continues its OBOR masterplan! Typical of Chinese bullying tactics to achieve its political objectives without having to go to war. Who does that remind us of in the past? One Adolf Hitler,who got his way first with the Sudetenland,Austrian
" Anschluss",ignored the humiliating restrictions of the treaty of Versailles preventing a German military build up ,and then gobbled up Czechoslovakia in the infamous Munich agreement with Chamberlain proudly proclaiming " peace in our time"!

Appeasement of Hitler we see today once again with China and XI.The islands and atolls of the ICS ,Mischief Reef,et al,have been gobbled up by the dragon. Expanded in size with land reclamation into fully equipped military bases,airfields,piers,etc.Hong Kong is rapidly going the way of Czechoslovakia,but Taiwan however would be the equivalent of Poland which would bring about war between the US and China. XI fondly thinks he can skinch on Indian territory,with his mission creep, as Hitler did incorporating the Sudetenland and Austria with the Anschluss.Ar.Pradesh let's not forget is to him " S.Tibet"! It has to be " unified" at some point of time. These absurd demands from China make it abundantly clear that the Chins want NO meaningful settlement of the border,but just continue their strategy from one Indian PM to the other,waiting for the opportnuity to teach us another lesson.


This is why we should attack now. Push an allied front to fight the menace.

If the US allied with France and defeated Britain, we can ally with the Quad and achieve the same.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Nihat » 08 Jun 2020 01:18

Larry Walker wrote:https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1269567756287897601?s=19

This propoganda ad video really makes we wonder if Chinese are more afraid of us then we are of them ??!!
What will these few hundred choclate boys do with just a bagpack and no sign of any logistics or any other war material. All we see is some APC's being loaded and few tanks that too on transports and in usual commie style the final paegentry when they all asemble. This is ridiculous level for any kind of pysops and makes it look completely hilarious.


After I was done laughing at that propaganda video, it did occur to me that the Chinese may have overplayed their hand on all this. Their intention is always to win by using pressure tactics and proxies rather than a real fight.

Once a battle begins, the best made plans go up in the air and it's the experience, calibre and battle preparedness of men that matters and it's a whole different ball game when someone is firing back from the the other end.

They will most definitely look to back down and it's only a game of nerves and in the process sullying their global image and improving our resolve.

What a bunch of looney toons, that clearly lack in strategic thinking and we are seriously overestimating their abilities here.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 08 Jun 2020 01:30

schinnas wrote:Isn't there an ITBP camp at the base of finger 4? How can they build bunker between finger 3 and 4? How accurate if Print.in?


I heard that there is no real road there, just a narrow mountain path( if we are referring to the same thing) so then if the Chinese did come past finger 4, they would be in full view, on foot.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Suresh S » 08 Jun 2020 01:32

India must take the initiative and attack. attack is the best defense. Initiative almost always lies with the attacker. india has been under attack for the last 70 odd yrs . If anyone on this board or this govt thinks that china and pakis will stop from the goodness of their heart and let India rise to it,s potential than they are leaving in a la la land . They will not stop till India is divided into multiple parts and some or all of which will be gobbled up by pakis and china. That is their endgame. And if people think oh let me get my economy and military strong and be a 10 trillion country than I will think about doing something.It will never happen that way. Attack when conditions are right and not when u want to. Condition are right now do not miss the chance.

I will knock out the pakis with a pre emptive strike before the chinks can even mobilize than decide about further action against china.But I will not let them get away this time. Entire world is against them and they know it. They are completely rattled and these are signs of extreme nervousness for chinks. If India does not attack they will and put us on the defensive.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby schinnas » 08 Jun 2020 01:33

Watching their propoganda video with soldiers sitting with helmets and rifles inside a plane or bus was so hilarious.

All this talk about 4x bigger economy and larger airforce means nothing in the unforgiving Himalayas. Within couple of days of war, they will lose their key highways and their chocolate boy soldiers will be useful primarily for Indian army target practice. They should be cowering in fear.

India should not give them an easy exit. They should be given a bloody nose or a public humiliation as they withdraw.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kit » 08 Jun 2020 01:40

abhik wrote:
amar_p wrote:Came across an interesting argument somewhere on yootyoob:

China or more exactly CCP will never engage in a full scale war and risk body bags coming back because as a nation that has adopted a forced one child policy for long, soldiers dying on the war front will lead to as many families losing the next generation completely. And no society will be able to tolerate losing the next gen, the families will revolt against the CCP having nothing to live for and this is a scenario the CCP is aware of and fears most.

Something all its neighbours should keep in mind.

CCP has been one of the most repressive regimes in killing and brutalising its own people (in sheer numbers it is at the top). Forget about great leap forward or Tiananmen square massacre, even the one child rule was enforced in some cases by literally killing babies - and this was less that ten years ago. Even in case of a war they will probably loose less people that all those sweetshop owners who have committed suicide while assembling iPhones. Let's not base our strategy on such drivel. Only reason they have not gone to war is that they have they have been mostly able to achieve their goals with out war.



So its more a question of who will blink first !!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kit » 08 Jun 2020 01:44

ManuJ wrote:Pakistan occupied POK at the time of independence when Indian and Pakistan armies had rough parity. It's only in the recent past (in sync with the Indian economy) that Indian military has moved ahead to have a decisive edge against Pakistan. This also proves the point that it's much easier to hold on to territory than to try to dislodge an entrenched enemy from it.
US fight for independence was on its own soil, with a large ocean separating it from Britain.
Israel's victory against the Arabs was a fight for survival in its own homeland. Though conceded that it's probably the only valid example in recent past of a small nation taking on a much larger enemy (on paper at least) and prevailing.

What is being proposed here is that India attack China and hive off Tibet. That's unrealistic based on today's economic and military strengths of the two countries. India can and will defend itself, but at this time it does not have the strength to go on a large offensive. For now, it needs to manage China and focus on building up its economy and its military strength. It should pursue a single-minded aim of achieving economic parity with China in the next 20 years. Then we can talk.



There is nothing like being fully prepared. The question is are you able to do what is required with what we have right now..this is the question for India politically.10 years down the line both china and india will reach somewhere, not just India. I do feel this is a very naive assumption of lets get bigger to do anything.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kit » 08 Jun 2020 01:49

I feel it is China that is on the backfoot.It literally shot itself in the foot trying on a border situation when the whole world is against it. India needs to make this situation its destiny and mark itself as chinas equal or better.The world is watching. The antics of Gobar times , the education of press from other countries wholesale propaganda war etc. India must call chinas bluff.No two versions about this. If it is war we will give them war. Period.
Last edited by kit on 08 Jun 2020 03:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Suresh S » 08 Jun 2020 02:00

is bar pant khol ke ghar bhaijo salo ko

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Nihat » 08 Jun 2020 02:10

Larry Walker wrote:https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1269567756287897601?s=19

This propoganda ad video really makes we wonder if Chinese are more afraid of us then we are of them ??!!
What will these few hundred choclate boys do with just a bagpack and no sign of any logistics or any other war material. All we see is some APC's being loaded and few tanks that too on transports and in usual commie style the final paegentry when they all asemble. This is ridiculous level for any kind of pysops and makes it look completely hilarious.


After I was done laughing at that propaganda video, it did occur to me that the Chinese may have overplayed their hand on all this. Their intention is always to win by using pressure tactics and proxies rather than a real fight.

Once a battle begins, the best made plans go up in the air and it's the experience, calibre and battle preparedness of men that matters and it's a whole different ball game when someone is firing back from the the other end.

They will most definitely look to back down and it's only a game of nerves and in the process sullying their global image and improving our resolve.

What a bunch of looney toons, that clearly lack in strategic thinking and we are seriously overestimating their abilities here.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RKumar » 08 Jun 2020 02:14

We are not starting the war, it has been imposed on us by China. They have entered into no men land, intact already occupied area illegally. They have done another Kargil, now question is when we lose our patience with Chinese or vice versa. We don’t undermine our opponent, they have arrived with full preparation. We hope Chinese pull their army sooner before situation gets out of hand.
Last edited by RKumar on 08 Jun 2020 02:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Jun 2020 02:17

TWITTER

@OpIndia_com

I reactivated Ladakh’s Daulat Beg Oldi airstrip in 2008 without informing govt because earlier 5 requests were denied: Former Air Marshal PK Barbora

https://t.co/K0iFEr6jZU

https://twitter.com/OpIndia_com/status/ ... 44641?s=19

Here's link to whole article:

https://www.opindia.com/2020/06/i-react ... ssion=true

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Narad » 08 Jun 2020 02:24

https://twitter.com/desertfox61I/status ... 9581200389
ROFL
@HuXijin_GT
Storm troopers Travel over 4282 KMs by road & Train in few hours ?
&
An altitude difference of about 14000 ft
IN FEW HOURS ?
Without acclamitization ?
Troops will die of HAPO, without a bullet being fired
@China_Amb_India
not even funny
Its Juvenile :rotfl:

https://twitter.com/desertfox61I/status ... 7496530944
They sit with helmets & rifles on train & Airplanes
Are they REAL Soldiers ?
Or
They are Movie extras
Last edited by Narad on 08 Jun 2020 02:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 08 Jun 2020 02:31

GT has rolled out 3 anti-India article today. I was curious to see the Chinese reaction after the meeting yesterday.

Looks like we did not do what the Chinese wanted in the meeting.

Probably confirms with the lame statement from MEA on resolving things peacefully.

Now since the Chinese have nothing worth while in airpower or army mass in Tibet, their build up will be openly seen.

In our case, our airbases are usually occupied. Not in the case of PLAAF. Ngari was completely empty. If they have to escalate it, PLAAF needs to deploy in strength in Ngari, which will be a giveaway of what might come next.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby CRamS » 08 Jun 2020 02:59

Like I said before, I don't place too much credibility on Pappu's Shook Law, but I do respect Brahma Chellaney. And my goodness, he has been going hammer and tons against what he calls ModiJi's 'appeasement'. Frankly, something I don't understand these guys. Why would a hard core nationalist like ModiJi appease China is beyond me, but that his opinion

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... ey-2020-06

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 08 Jun 2020 03:24

Simple explanation. Nationalism doesn't mean going to war willy nilly, specially when LAC has not seen the level of violence as in LoC. The Chinese are bullies, but they don't send terrorist across to India like the Paks do.

The first and foremost objective is the growth of the nation. You would do your utmost to prevent getting the nation in to a war. And definitely not keeping two borders on a firefight. Because the cost is not paid by PM Modi. It is paid by families of the men who come back in body bags. They would have lost their lives in a never ending firefight, for which there is no solution, nor a gain, like we have on LoC.

If the Chinese fire first, we have no choice. We defend with our entire might.

The job of the nation is to be prepared. Prepared for a war, so that you can prevent one.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rishirishi » 08 Jun 2020 03:59

A world without India to rival China will send shivers down the spine of many security planners. US and EU needs an effective counter to China. India thus has the opportunity to milk this situation.

Possible senario:
Show some weakness and request real cutting edge stuff like JSF to counter the Chinese threat.
JSF would be a total game changer. A combat radius of 800+ km could take out supply lines for troops sitting several thousands of Km away from the border.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 08 Jun 2020 04:07

We have to keep our eyes in multiple diretions. Pakis on the West, Chini on the East and the internal saboteurs within. The lockdown is slowly being lifted and with the worldwide protests on, we can expect serious attempts at starting the same here.

For those who know abut 1967 incident at Nathu La, should also be aware that it was the Chinese who started it and we ended it. There was another incident post that, when an incoming Gurkha Battalion was taken by surprise and PT 15450 was occupied by the Chinese. To avenge its honour "close quarter khukri work" was used to clear the Chinese and retake the PT 15450. (Source: Page 84, A Talent for War The Military Biography of Lt. Gen. Sagat Singh)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rishirishi » 08 Jun 2020 04:08

Now since the Chinese have nothing worth while in airpower or army mass in Tibet, their build up will be openly seen.

In our case, our airbases are usually occupied. Not in the case of PLAAF. Ngari was completely empty. If they have to escalate it, PLAAF needs to deploy in strength in Ngari, which will be a giveaway of what might come next.


I think the Indo-pak air war showed how important technology is. My belief is that IAF has better tech and China could potentially face a massive defete in the air. A defete in the air, would make it almost impossible to sustain any meaningful presence at the border. The soldiers would start starving withing days.
The Balakot strike also make it clear that India does not fear Nuclear weapons. The Chinease do not have the Jehadi mindset and would probably make a calcualted move. Even if India took large parts of this useless land, China would probably do nothing. But then what is the point? India should focus on development, not be inspired by its western lunatic.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 08 Jun 2020 04:22

Rishirishi wrote:
Now since the Chinese have nothing worth while in airpower or army mass in Tibet, their build up will be openly seen.

In our case, our airbases are usually occupied. Not in the case of PLAAF. Ngari was completely empty. If they have to escalate it, PLAAF needs to deploy in strength in Ngari, which will be a giveaway of what might come next.


I think the Indo-pak air war showed how important technology is. My belief is that IAF has better tech and China could potentially face a massive defete in the air. A defete in the air, would make it almost impossible to sustain any meaningful presence at the border. The soldiers would start starving withing days.
The Balakot strike also make it clear that India does not fear Nuclear weapons. The Chinease do not have the Jehadi mindset and would probably make a calcualted move. Even if India took large parts of this useless land, China would probably do nothing. But then what is the point? India should focus on development, not be inspired by its western lunatic.


The point is establishing a power center in Asia that will stabilize the neighborhood and enable our infrastructure to have better connectivity than the Chinese. We can’t do this if the Belt and Road Initiative goes through PoK, effectively cutting India out of the new Silk Road. We have to have a strategic presence and sit between China and Pakistan. Better yet, create a Tibet so that is a buffer between India and China. This will drastically increases stability in India and lead to accelerated prosperity for the average Indian.

The counter move allows us to be bullied by countries like Nepal who don’t recognize our sphere of influence and through sabotage we are reduced to always being on the defensive and giving away critical strategic assets in a continuous pursuit of peace. Appeasement doesn’t work. It didn’t work with Hitler and it won’t work with Xi. It will simply embolden them to try again. You have to confront the bully and create a conversation from a position of strength. This will cost lives, but we have to fight this fight eventually, because it is repeatedly imposed on us by our neighbors.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 08 Jun 2020 05:11

Manish,tx. for that link and 3 cheers for AM Barbora! A toast to him! The babus in the MOD are more dangerous than the Pakis and Chinks combined! In fact the IAF should quietly put into operation more strategic ex- WW2 airstrips that it feels essential to protect our vast mountainous borders. We now see parts of NHs being trialled as emergency airstrips. In fact the existing ones should be further upgraded,defended to the hilt with SAMs,AAA,etc. and a host of helipads also constructed .A pity we don't have STOVL/VTOL birds like the Harriers.The RAF used to operate them from small clearings in German forests witth mobile logistic teams, camouflaged so well that even when locations were given,they were v.difficult to spot.

But all this calls for a huge amt. of Vitamin M to acquire critical weaponry,ammo,spares,etc.in as short a time as possible.As much as one is happy about the "make in India" mantra,buy only Indian,it is more rhetoric than actual capability. 4 decades on and we still haven't been able to produce a single fighter engine! Great strides have been made by the IN in warship and sub- building,in fact so far ahead,decades ahead of the IAF and IA,that too using the services of state undertakings in the main. The other two servives should also take their cue from the IN in emulating their example.

A list was given in a recent post of various items required. What the cabinet/ CCS should do is to treat the situ as one where we are on the brink of conflict- which it is,and empower the PM/ MOD to cut through the massed ranks of babudom and their lethal traps of red tape, along with the 3 services,determine the critical requirements,plus others in the short,med and long term timeframe,and take decisions to beg,borrow or steal them with the utmost haste. "Quantity has a quality of its own", is a famous saying.It helped us defeat Pak time and again.But against China,we are hugely outnumbered in most depts.,though China has to spread its guns and butter in several theatres,but in our eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation,we should have both numerical superiority in sectors concerned,plus the qualitative advantage where possible.

Always keep in mind how the Soviets outnumbered the Nazis in tanks,etc. in WW2. Even humble armed AJTs have their usefulness in adding to the forces we can bring to bear upon the enemy. Leasing of eqpt. from firang OEMs is also an option.NATO used MI-8/17 helos in Afg. A host of decisions already made are languishing for a final seal. KA-226 LUHs,Kalashnikov production,80+LCA MK1As, Arjun-2s,ICVs, extra MKIs ,upgrades to around 200,extra MIG-29s,AWACS and AEW aircraft. Subs especially,declining numbers acutely felt,ASW helos- over 100 naval LUHs plus another 100 or so ASW helos ,LCHs,etc.reqd. A batch of Backfires for LR maritime strike essential,aircraft could be leased until new upgraded ones arrive.The range of missiles from BMos variants to short- ranged SAMs also need sealing.

We have huge forex reserves approx. $ 450B. At least 5% of that would give us around $25B for war acquisitions. A significant portion of this especially ammo, aircraft ( LCAs) and helos (LCHs, LUHs and naval helos) numbering a few hundreds,would be built in India.One area already showing much fruit is in the arty. branch,where Dhanush,K-9s,Sarang ,Pinakas,etc. are being built for the IA.I think over 60 K-9 SPs have already been delivered by L&T. These decisions can be all taken in a week or two if the will is there. The process of execution and timeframe of acquisition to follow.Only after a significant number of items are in the pipeline ,plus delivered and operationalised,can we think of offensive ops.Until that time,we are better off in a defensive posture,but with planned counter- attack options,particularly in the maritime sphere.

I don't think that Mr.Modi is " appeasing" China. He well knows our situ,but we need to move ahead and fast.

PS: The JSF is still a work in progress,latest Congressional report.It's also v.expensive and the task of inducting will take time.Less glamorous but v.efficient options are there. The most important factor reqd. right is intel,from our own sats and sources, plus those of our potential allies.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Roop » 08 Jun 2020 05:32

kit wrote:Guys, ... the quadrilateral grouping is all fine , but how exactly is the US, Australia Japan etc going to help india if push comes to shove ?


By bringing military pressure to bear on China from the east and south-east (South China Sea, East China Sea, their illegal artificial islands, etc.). This would cause all kinds of pants-browning in Beijing, to the point where they would be very limited in their ability to fight seriously on their "western front", i.e. Tibet and Xinjiang.

Your question is a serious and reasonable one and deserves a serious answer, which I have attempted to give above.

You have also raised another excellent point, which I agree with: this Quad thing is just an informal grouping, insufficient for the rigorous challenges of a full-fledged shooting war. My answer is twofold:

  • We (the general public) are not aware of the details of the Quad agreement. I think (assume) there is a lot more behind-the-scenes serious contingency planning for joint military action than we realize, and
  • In any case, I don't think (again, my assumption) that anyone is thinking about occupying all of Tibet in the near future. For the present, all that is planned is a pushback of the Chinese PLA out of their strongholds in Tibet to relieve the pressure on India and to administer a jhapad to their H&D that is publicly visible to the whole world, i.e. a serious loss of face. I think the long-term (10 years, say) plan is to create an independent buffer state of Tibet free of Chinese rule and let them govern themselves, with their independence guaranteed by a coalition India, US and others. If you (we) destroy the road/rail bridge links between Tibet and China, as also the PLAAF air bases, there is no way China can support an army in Tibet unless they want to go to all-out war. And if they choose that option, they will be fighting against the Quad, not just India.

And finally: I, personally, am all for a formalization of the Quad into a full-fledged military alliance (and let's bring in Vietnam and S.Korea too -- make the Quad into a Hexiad, or whatever the hell the word is). The world has changed a lot since 1947, all this NAM-style "neutrality" (basically, sitting on the fence while everyone around you fights and dies) is unworthy of a great power (which India aspires to be).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 08 Jun 2020 05:40

Roop wrote:
kit wrote:Guys, ... the quadrilateral grouping is all fine , but how exactly is the US, Australia Japan etc going to help india if push comes to shove ?


By bringing military pressure to bear on China from the east and south-east (South China Sea, East China Sea, their illegal artificial islands, etc.). This would cause all kinds of pants-browning in Beijing, to the point where they would be very limited in their ability to fight seriously on their "western front", i.e. Tibet and Xinjiang.

Your question is a serious and reasonable one and deserves a serious answer, which I have attempted to give above.

You have also raised another excellent point, which I agree with: this Quad thing is just an informal grouping, insufficient for the rigorous challenges of a full-fledged shooting war. My answer is twofold:

  • We (the general public) are not aware of the details of the Quad agreement. I think (assume) there is a lot more behind-the-scenes serious contingency planning for joint military action than we realize, and
  • In any case, I don't think (again, my assumption) that anyone is thinking about occupying all of Tibet in the near future. For the present, all that is planned is a pushback of the Chinese PLA out of their strongholds in Tibet to relieve the pressure on India and to administer a jhapad to their H&D that is publicly visible to the whole world, i.e. a serious loss of face. I think the long-term (10 years, say) plan is to create an independent buffer state of Tibet free of Chinese rule and let them govern themselves, with their independence guaranteed by a coalition India, US and others. If you (we) destroy the road/rail bridge links between Tibet and China, as also the PLAAF air bases, there is no way China can support an army in Tibet unless they want to go to all-out war. And if they choose that option, they will be fighting against the Quad, not just India.

And finally: I, personally, am all for a formalization of the Quad into a full-fledged military alliance (and let's bring in Vietnam and S.Korea too -- make the Quad into a Hexiad, or whatever the hell the word is). The world has changed a lot since 1947, all this NAM-style "neutrality" (basically, sitting on the fence while everyone around you fights and dies) is unworthy of a great power (which India aspires to be).



:twisted: This is spot on strategy. We have to pursue this with hyper focus.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Roop » 08 Jun 2020 05:58

I have to say, as a personal observation, I am very glad to see the level of pro-active anti-China aggression on these threads. Gone are the days when the majority of BRF members were shivering in their dhotis at the thought of a military clash with China, "arre bhai, the Chinese are ten feet tall, their economy is five times that of India, let us preach Om-Shanti onlee and hide in the corner". That was the norm on BRF 20 years ago, but no more.

That, in itself, is a good thing, regardless of the specific details of this or that battle plan. Before you can come up with a good plan of battle, you have to first have the resolve to fight, rather then pre-emptively surrender.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 08 Jun 2020 06:08

We need to win with overwhelming international support and collaboration. We have to define the strategy and shore up the logistics and manpower support with all the democratic countries. In return, India has to create a new sphere of influence and bring about stability to Asia while containing China. Status quo cannot be the end goal. That will be the death of India. India has to assert itself, this will require stepping out of comfort zone and boots on the ground in foreign soil.

I've said this before. We had no problem doing this as part of the British India army when we were deployed in Burma, Europe and Africa. We lost lives and fought for the benefit of a tiny island European nation, but we don't have the appetite to empower ourselves. I don't buy that one bit. We have to be comfortable asserting our presence and creating a buffer between India and China. This will isolate Pakistan and enable us to handle that situation permanently. Walking on egg shells and appeasing for the sake of peace is not working. We have to ruffle some feathers. If we take a hit so be it. All the European countries took a hit in WWII and they got a seat at the UN Security Council and defined the new world order. Should we have India sit on the sidelines while other countries define the strategic initiatives in our neighborhood or do we grab our partners and deploy with a sharp focus. The pitch to our allies has to be, we will be the medium of change and we are the boots on the ground. We need to shore up the strongest military supply chain to overcome China's manufacturing capacity. We should also feverishly work towards local procurement of defense equipment. This is a rite of passage to be a world power that demands respect. We are being tested and how we react will reflect our standing in the world.

Last edited by Sravan on 08 Jun 2020 06:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mort Walker » 08 Jun 2020 06:15

Roop wrote:I have to say, as a personal observation, I am very glad to see the level of pro-active anti-China aggression on these threads. Gone are the days when the majority of BRF members were shivering in their dhotis at the thought of a military clash with China, "arre bhai, the Chinese are ten feet tall, their economy is five times that of India, let us preach Om-Shanti onlee and hide in the corner". That was the norm on BRF 20 years ago, but no more.

That, in itself, is a good thing, regardless of the specific details of this or that battle plan. Before you can come up with a good plan of battle, you have to first have the resolve to fight, rather then pre-emptively surrender.


No one is saying hide in a corner or give up territory. India has neglected its MIC and indigenisation and can not become a world power until it does so. Relying on foreign powers to act in its favor is folly. This has been the case time and again. The 2017 Doklam standoff should have pumped more money into production of Arjun, Dhanush, Tejas and AWACs by the tens of billions of dollars over a 5-7 year period.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 08 Jun 2020 07:48

schinnas wrote:Isn't there an ITBP camp at the base of finger 4? How can they build bunker between finger 3 and 4? How accurate if Print.in?

Per Col Dinny's interview with Nitin Gokhale (video shared in an earlier page), there is the ITBP camp at just west of Finger 4, as well as a base farther east near the foxhole point. The metalled road ends at the ITBP camp, but there is a dirt road going up to and beyond this camp, all the way to the "uncrossable" point on the western edge of the foxhole ridge (the video makes it much clearer as he explains it with a map).

So Print is clearly smoking something potent.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 08 Jun 2020 08:03

Nihat wrote:
Larry Walker wrote:https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/status/1269567756287897601?s=19

This propoganda ad video really makes we wonder if Chinese are more afraid of us then we are of them ??!!
What will these few hundred choclate boys do with just a bagpack and no sign of any logistics or any other war material. All we see is some APC's being loaded and few tanks that too on transports and in usual commie style the final paegentry when they all asemble. This is ridiculous level for any kind of pysops and makes it look completely hilarious.


After I was done laughing at that propaganda video, it did occur to me that the Chinese may have overplayed their hand on all this. Their intention is always to win by using pressure tactics and proxies rather than a real fight.

Seriously :rotfl: :rotfl:

The only thing different from Doklam is that they have learnt how mocking could blow back on them (remember that 7 deadly sins video?), and this is a way for them to signal that they are regarding us as a real threat now. It's an upgrade, gentlerakshaks, so we must be happy about that :roll:.

Assuming the video is not pure propaganda (a tall assumption, but let's play along for fun), all this rapid deployment is meaningless without acclimatization, and here are these kids taking air-con tourist buses all the way to "forward locations". As for logistics, well, some of our fellow "liberate Tibet now!" rakshaks here would identify with the method shown in these videos - simply catch the next bus to Lhasa or wherever it is you want to go. Good luck mounting any sort of real fight.

#BoysWithToys :lol:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 08 Jun 2020 08:44

Sravan wrote:
arshyam wrote:Too much Tom Clancy-ish thinking going around here. BRF is better than this.


1. How would US "supplies" help change the geographical challenges to maintain logistical support? Kindly explain.
2. Why would the US expend money and manpower to support our need for strategic depth? If they had a problem with China that requires military intervention, won't it be easier to use their navy on the eastern seaboard? Why would they choose this difficult route instead?
3. How well has "US supplies" helped its own troops to sustain in Afghanistan? Isn't Tibet an order-of-magnitude increase in difficulty?
4. If it were that easy to deal with China via the Himalaya and Tibet, why didn't the allies with all their resources at their command, attack Japanese positions in China from Arunachal? Why did they resort to, at best, sustenance-level of supplies to Chiang Kai-shek's troops over the hump? Getting Japan off China would have been worth the cost, wouldn't it?
5. Conversely, why did the Japanese choose to attack India via Myanmar and not China? India was the key to the allied effort in Asia (and Europe too, if food supplies were considered), and would have been a humongous strategic prize for the Japanese, not to mention Bose's attempt to throw the Britshits out of desh. It would have ended the allied effort in Asia in short order. Given these obvious benefits, why didn't they think about it?

Lastly, as a thought exercise, kindly do some research into what it takes to supply 1 of our brigades stationed in, say Lhasa, and share your findings. Routes (road + air), requirements for 1 brigade worth of troops, time taken for a single convoy, amount of material to be sent daily, ammunition, manpower to secure the route, etc. For this theoretical exercise, you can dismiss any Chinese challenge to this supply route.
So, you don't want to look into specifics. Oh-kay.

Sravan wrote:US maintains the biggest arms repository known to man. They can out manufacture and have huge reservoirs of ammunition and guns. Walmart can ship more weapons to their citizens vs our OFB companies to our military. If you are planning to fight a war of attrition, you want them on your side.
So now Walmart will handle our logistics? Will they do priority ground to, say, Shigatse? If they are really that good, why are the US forces still struggling so much in Afghanistan?

Sravan wrote:Regarding why they will help us. It is easier to hold Tibet from India vs from China. Tibet is naturally separated from China with climate. We simply need to offer them a logistics supply chain through India. US would be all over this to drive forward an attack without facing the full wrath of China’s military.
Yet again, why would the US want to hold Tibet? What's in it for them? And what makes you think the Chinese military, whatever its capability, will not attack a US thrust via Tibet?

Sravan wrote:Civilizations are naturally separated by Climate.
So it is your submission that Tibet and India share the same climate?

Sravan wrote: If we can create a supply chain to the alpine climate, then we can truly create a buffer between India and China.
This is exactly the million-dollar question I am asking you to think through. If it were that easy, why wasn't it done in the past? WWII was a great opportunity to attempt it, wasn't it? What happened then?

Sravan wrote:US benefits because the war would have a low human capital cost, a huge wealth of resources and future security around the water supply for its allies.
Fight the Chinese to a last Indian, I see. Definitely Tom Clancy.

Sravan wrote:If the US allied with France and defeated Britain, we can ally with the Quad and achieve the same.
Again and again you keep going on about this fantasy, not to mention the false equivalency between fighting for one's own homeland vs liberating someone else's - please share any indication that the Quad is some sort of military alliance? India herself has been quite clear that it is not a military pact, so why would US, Japan and Aus suddenly team up with us to counter China, putting their people and economies on the line? Do they have the same level of problems and imminent threats we have with the Chinese? Sure, as I said above, they'd be happy to fight the Chinese to the last Indian, but that again goes back to the question - what would be our objective? Please note that as a jingo, I too would love to fight the Chinese to the last American/Korean/Russian/whatever, but does that mean I could? Let's be real.

Saar, don't get me wrong, you have good imagination and write well. But it is too much for this thread to handle. I'd suggest the scenario thread. Thanks.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 08 Jun 2020 08:44

As long as Global Times keeps attacking India, things are good. Be suspicious if things improve too quickly, it means a sellout has happened.

What we are seeing now is good, right wing people like Bhrama Chellany are attacking Modi to keep the Government honest, which is making any temptation of a sellout less likely. On the military front we are seeing inconclusive meetings which again means sellout isn’t happening. Hope this pattern is continued for months of inconclusive diplomatic talks.

Eventually when the Chinese get tired of this s**tty forward deployment on a freezing desert for 8 km of barren land that isn’t serving its purpose of deterring India from building roads, they will go back into their holes.

This is the ideal outcome.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 08 Jun 2020 08:46

Suresh S wrote:India must take the initiative and attack. attack is the best defense. Initiative almost always lies with the attacker. india has been under attack for the last 70 odd yrs . If anyone on this board or this govt thinks that china and pakis will stop from the goodness of their heart and let India rise to it,s potential than they are leaving in a la la land . They will not stop till India is divided into multiple parts and some or all of which will be gobbled up by pakis and china. That is their endgame. And if people think oh let me get my economy and military strong and be a 10 trillion country than I will think about doing something.It will never happen that way. Attack when conditions are right and not when u want to. Condition are right now do not miss the chance.

I will knock out the pakis with a pre emptive strike before the chinks can even mobilize than decide about further action against china.But I will not let them get away this time. Entire world is against them and they know it. They are completely rattled and these are signs of extreme nervousness for chinks. If India does not attack they will and put us on the defensive.

Attack for what objective? Without a clear objective, no military campaign will be effective. Please think it through instead of grandiose homilies like "attack is the best form of defense". Everyone here knows that, and most of us are not even using such defeatist lines like "They will not stop till India is divided into multiple parts and some or all of which will be gobbled up by pakis and china." to make our case. India is too strong for that, and no one, not even the mighty khan, has the resources to actually do that to us. But what will be our objective?

Since you bring the "world is against them" logic implying some support from "the world" for some campaign against the Chinese, what military campaign of ours will not cause "the world" to withdraw that support, whatever form it is of? Will they be okay if we pre-emptively strike Chengdu with a Brahmos from, say, Dibrugarh? (Brahmos does not have the range, but since we all seem to be fantasizing, let's play along) And what will we achieve by said attack? What about their reaction? Our counter reaction?

If this is the level of discussions we want to have, I'd suggest starting a fantasy thread (not even simulation/scenario) and take these posts there. Let's not clutter the real challenges of the border here, and improve the SnR. Thx.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 08 Jun 2020 08:56

1) even HH Dalai Lama is not asking for what the cowboys on the forum are asking !!! 2) on thr Quad..it will take much more time ( in years) for it to be taken seriously ..unless its in black/white and lists out the terms/conditions ... USA pushing convoys is a serious irritant to china but not a real mil threat unless USA occupies any of the artificial island. So dont pin too many hopes on Quad atleast in near future. 3) i was talking to my Ladhak Scouts frnd who has patrolled often in Galwan valley . he was saying it took them excess of 1 day of walking with ponies to reach the LAC ... was saying saar bahut difficult area hai... bahut mushkil hoti hai... and then he said ...sir order aayega to cheena ( as ladhakis say) ki faad denge... but he was also saying ..buildup has slowed down...


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