India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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abhik
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 08 Jun 2020 18:12

Once winter sets in, who's logistics will degrade more, Ours or the Chinese? And what are the chances of a winter war - sure it will be difficult but is one side can take even limited action while the other is paralysed, it could give that side a decisive advantage.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 08 Jun 2020 18:16

arshyam wrote:
Deans wrote:None of these cost the Quad countries anything.

Thanks - all of these can be thought of as intelligence sharing and cooperation among friendly countries. At best, some level of institutionalized info sharing and training exercises. While definitely useful, that's all we can expect from this grouping for now.

What are your thoughts on our occupying some positions and do some salami slicing ourselves? While the current talks would be resolved, China won't be made to pay a price for their periodic antics. We need to impose a cost on them somehow.


Rather that pipe dreams of liberating Tibet, what is doable is taking back some of the 600 odd Sq km we allowed the chinese to take,
during UPA 1 & 2. Its possible in the Demchok area in southern Ladakh - which can threaten to cut the G-219 highway and their base at Ngari.
The opening of the Rohtang tunnel will simplify logistics if we have to station a force in Demchok.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 08 Jun 2020 18:23

abhik wrote:Once winter sets in, who's logistics will degrade more, Ours or the Chinese? And what are the chances of a winter war - sure it will be difficult but is one side can take even limited action while the other is paralysed, it could give that side a decisive advantage.


In general, fighting in extreme cold and high altitude will favour the defending side.
More importantly, IA is the only army with the institutional experience of operating in these conditions. The defending side would have a bigger advantage if their men have more experience of the conditions, which we do. In a hypothetical war, I would even bet on Pakistan's Northern LI successfully defending against the PLA.
Our biggest logistics problems in winter have been eased with the Durbok-Shyok-DBO road, the opening of advanced landing grounds and the all weather Rohtang tunnel.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vips » 08 Jun 2020 18:33

Strategic 'climate-controlled' ITBP post in Ladakh expected to be operational this year after delays.

After suffering multiple delays, the first 'climate-controlled' border post of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) along the icy and strategic Pangong Tso lake area in Ladakh along the Chinese LAC is expected to be operationalised this year, officials said.

The BoP or the border out post is located in Lukung, close to the Pangong Tso lake area of Ladakh, where Indian and Chinese soldiers are currently involved in a standoff.

The border post is counted as an ambitious strategic project as the facility will allow armed ITBP troops to be deployed in the forward areas for a long time amid sub-zero temperatures and very cold and harsh climatic conditions prevalent in the region.

Officials said while the construction of the concrete structure for the 'composite' border post has finished, the temperature control measures and few ancillary works are yet to be tested and finished.

The project is being executed by the National Projects Construction Corporation (NPCC), a PSU whose majority shares were acquired by WAPCOS (Water and Power Consultancy Services) under the Jal Shakti Ministry, sometime back. While the construction of the composite BoP is complete, the temperature control measures are yet to be stabilised, official sources said.

While the desired indoor temperature is about 22-23 degrees, what is being achieved at present is about 11-12 degrees, they said. The recent change of guard at the NPCC and the outbreak of the coronavirus pandemic has further pushed the deadline of completion of this project. However, it is being expedited and it is expected that the BoP will be operational by this year, they said.

When asked if the current standoff between the Army, ITBP troops and the Chinese PLA soldiers at this front is the reason for speeding up the work, two officials privy to the development told that this was already a "fast tracked" project.

ITBP Director General (DG) S S Deswal had last year said at a press conference that the climate controlled BoP project has been "We are requesting them to expedite the work. We are making efforts to ensure that the work is complete without further delay," he had said in October last year.

The source of energy at this modern BoP, which is expected to be replicated at more ITBP LAC locations, will be clean fuel or solar energy, and not diesel or kerosene. These high-altitude border posts will also have facilities to store water in liquid form.

While the normal temperature in the areas around Pangong Tso lake dips to about minus 40 degrees Celsius, the temperature inside this post can be regulated between 22-28 degree Celsius.

The border guarding force, as per an official of the Union Home ministry, has also sent an update to them about the creation of 47 new BoPs at this front from the Karakoram Pass in Ladakh to Jachep La in Arunachal Pradesh criss-crossing a multitude of terrains like mountains, plains, rivers and other frozen heights across the 3,488 km of the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

The mountain warfare-trained ITBP is mandated to guard the LAC and its posts are located between 9,000 fts-18,700 fts in the western, middle and eastern sectors of this front and has about 180 BoPs at present.

The force in coordination with various LAC sharing states has submitted a report to the Union Home ministry identifying the land parcels to create the new BoPs, the ministry official said. However, as these areas are located in very hard terrain regions with almost negligible modes of transport, finding contractors and labourers is a tough task, he added. However, BoP construction work is being monitored very scrupulously, he added.

The paramilitary force has "enhanced" its capacity to reach up to the farthest point along the LAC as it added 25 posts in the past five years to ensure effective preparedness on this icy front marred by perceptional difference of the borderline, DG Deswal had said last year. This also has led to an increase in ITBP patrols in these areas, a senior official said. The ITBP, in the backdrop of the recent standoff, has reinforced its numbers and is working with the Army to resolve the tension, officials had said recently. Unconfirmed reports said as many as 10 companies (about 1,000 personnel) of the force have been sent to the front in the recent past. The force under the Union Home ministry, about 90,000 personnel in strength, was raised in the aftermath of the 1962 Chinese aggression and apart from its primary task of guarding the LAC, it renders a variety of internal security duties.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Yagnasri » 08 Jun 2020 18:51

So apart from Indian Army we also have a good number of ITBP forces available to us for taking some of the IA responsibilities in case need then.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 08 Jun 2020 18:59

Deans wrote:To counter that, China has to move its entire Western theatre command to Ladakh. That force has to move along a single highway (G219). There is no construction in place near the LAC to house a force close to that size - or store their supplies. Even by Chinese standards, that construction effort will take months. Getting the labor in place (who will have difficulty adapting to the altitude, unlike our pro-India local porters) will take weeks and will be at the cost of rail and road capacity required to move an army. The time required for acclimitizing is only a small part of the total time they will need. If they work on a war footing starting now, they will finish in winter, when conditions make combat next to impossible. Also China cannot move this force and withdraw it, without a huge loss of face, unless they start and win a war. It has taken us decades to put our existing infrastructure in place. Apart from this, insurgency in the valley, cross LOC firing and stone pelting etc have been at their lowest level in years, giving us a reserve of infantry (unlike during Kargil).


I am really hopping we carry out a publicized build up and force the Chinese to react. Make them think we are planning an attack.

We can move in and move back easily. PLA has to build everything from scratch. Need to catch them off guard with a full mobilization.

No need to attack, but a open mobilization will create enough doubts for a status quo.

Got to stop this "long haul" business and create an crisis.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Prabu » 08 Jun 2020 19:14

NRao wrote:China, to their credit, has gamed every detail, trade, financial, military, etc, extremely well. And now has a huge boost from a badly distracted world and a comical US President. And, China gamed this situation too and is executing and gathering data for future moves.

Imho, China will go back to pre April positions in this "dispute". But, would have gained a boat load of info - worldwide - to game the next moveS.

China is not only taking on multiple nations in military, but is taking on Canada and the UK in telecommunication, Australia and the US in trade. And, all the while keeping a lid on her other partner's in Africa, south Asia, etc.


Namasthe and nice to see :) you NRao garu after long time. I have not around with BR for some time.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 08 Jun 2020 19:16

I think this, among others, is more optics. But. .....

Chinese chopper activities go up along the LAC in Eastern Ladakh

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 08 Jun 2020 19:24

nam wrote:
Deans wrote:To counter that, China has to move its entire Western theatre command to Ladakh. That force has to move along a single highway (G219). There is no construction in place near the LAC to house a force close to that size - or store their supplies. Even by Chinese standards, that construction effort will take months. Getting the labor in place (who will have difficulty adapting to the altitude, unlike our pro-India local porters) will take weeks and will be at the cost of rail and road capacity required to move an army. The time required for acclimitizing is only a small part of the total time they will need. If they work on a war footing starting now, they will finish in winter, when conditions make combat next to impossible. Also China cannot move this force and withdraw it, without a huge loss of face, unless they start and win a war. It has taken us decades to put our existing infrastructure in place. Apart from this, insurgency in the valley, cross LOC firing and stone pelting etc have been at their lowest level in years, giving us a reserve of infantry (unlike during Kargil).


I am really hopping we carry out a publicized build up and force the Chinese to react. Make them think we are planning an attack.

We can move in and move back easily. PLA has to build everything from scratch. Need to catch them off guard with a full mobilization.

No need to attack, but a open mobilization will create enough doubts for a status quo.

Got to stop this "long haul" business and create an crisis.


Basically Operation Checkerboard 2.0

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 08 Jun 2020 19:28

NRao wrote:I think this, among others, is more optics. But. .....

Chinese chopper activities go up along the LAC in Eastern Ladakh

Any OSINT on where these helicopters based out of? or are they operating from their airfields only.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 08 Jun 2020 19:49

^^^ Yeah we hear this increase helo activity all the time during this face off. But I can't really find anything on this. No pictures of where those helos are coming from or even what helos they are using. They are deficient on high-alt types and for years they depended on the Blackhawks they bought from the US in the 1980s. The CopyHawk is supposed to be their new high altitude copter but no picture of this being in Tibet beyond training.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 08 Jun 2020 20:10

Sravan wrote:
arshyam wrote:It would be foolish to think these quad+ countries would send men and materiel to fight China alongside us, given the current threat levels to countries other than us. Heck, even we are not going to war for a few fingers - any democratic govt would need public support for such an action, or an immediate external threat. China has so far operated under that threshold, so it would be very hard for GoI to justify any big military action. So unless China does something incredibly stupid and causes an existential problem for all of us, a combined military response to China is not happening.

Since India and China are immediate neighbours and China perceives some sort of superiority w.r.t. us, the maximum threat from China is to us. Only us. So whatever we can do with our own resources (men + materiel) is what we should be focusing on. That's what I'd been saying over the past couple of pages here, but the thread got derailed with fantastic scenarios about liberating Tibet and what not.


Typical desi line of thinking. What’s in it for me?

The Quad countries don’t think like this. Their goal is how to shape the world to be beneficial to their goals. What business does the US have in Latin America? Yet it provides a military for Costa Rica. What business does Japan have in space defense, yet they just created a space defense force. The flaw is we apply our desi mindset to foreign powers. These powers don’t think like this. Their focus is on shaping the world in a way that they get an unfair advantage. Right now that means beating up China.

Sure - since you are so confident, kindly stitch up an alliance with Japan and the US and inform Modi-ji. I am sure he'll appreciate your efforts :lol:. I am desi, so would only have a desi mentality, what to do onlee :((

Of course, let's not forget Australia - they were, after all, falling over themselves in offering to support India a few years ago without the "desi mentality" of "what's in it for me", and it was India that turned down Aussie magnanimity.

Good luck saar - we are all eagerly awaiting the results of your diplomatic efforts.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sudarshan » 08 Jun 2020 20:22

Disclaimer: total noob, have kept my ignorant nose out of military issues so far. But just a question.

What is with this "all or nothing approach" in "liberating Tibet?" What about grabbing a chunk of land about the size of Liechtenstein or maybe Belgium, ideally including Lhasa, and setting up a "free Tibet" government there? Those guys are running a govt. in exile from Himachal Pradesh, they might as well do it from a sliver of their own land. The rest of Tibet has some hope of rejoining the free chunk, and that would be a goal to work towards in future. Would such a sliver be easier to defend, or harder?

For comparison, the TAR is about half the size of India. That's a massive chunk of land to liberate all at once.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 08 Jun 2020 20:27

Here is what will happen if we "liberate" let's say Lhasa.

With PLA been driven out of Lhasa, it will become open season for the Chinese. All they have to do is keep firing their BM & CM from Chengdu fundamentally ravaging the entire city. Along with Tibetans, we will loosing troops, who have to be deployed to counter any future PLA invasion.

And what do we get in return? The "joy" of liberating what would be a barren Lhasa?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 08 Jun 2020 20:33

sudarshan wrote:What about grabbing a chunk of land about the size of Liechtenstein or maybe Belgium, ideally including Lhasa, and setting up a "free Tibet" government there? Those guys are running a govt. in exile from Himachal Pradesh, they might as well do it from a sliver of their own land. The rest of Tibet has some hope of rejoining the free chunk, and that would be a goal to work towards in future. Would such a sliver be easier to defend, or harder?


This is more likely going to be a long term plan depending on how internal matters in India are sorted out. Grabbing pieces here and there that can be defended would be the most likely offensive scenario.

Many just simply seem to forget the political scenarios in India where many politicians seem to be Chinese puppets. Yogi still needs to be back in UP to even have some sort of confidence about long term trajectory of political scene in India.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 08 Jun 2020 21:37

If only this was in numbers... :roll:

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mort Walker » 08 Jun 2020 21:50

So far only 145 Dhanush have been ordered and more like 1,450 are needed. If weight is an issue, the DRDO with the gun carriage factory in Jabalpur could have made a lightweight version, this would have been better than buying the M777. Neither the M777 or Dhanush are in enough numbers. When will India's leadership wake up?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 08 Jun 2020 21:54

nam wrote:Here is what will happen if we "liberate" let's say Lhasa.

With PLA been driven out of Lhasa, it will become open season for the Chinese. All they have to do is keep firing their BM & CM from Chengdu fundamentally ravaging the entire city. Along with Tibetans, we will loosing troops, who have to be deployed to counter any future PLA invasion.

And what do we get in return? The "joy" of liberating what would be a barren Lhasa?


Why is it not open season in Aksai Chin or PoK right now?

As per your logic MRLS barrages should be happening in Aksai Chin and PoK.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 08 Jun 2020 21:56

Dear Members,
I always assumed BRF has a quality and a certain gravitas of debate.

There have been several posts with some hyperbolic suggestions of liberating Aksai Chin and some / most parts of Tibet, as the answer to the present imbroglio. I really wish I could round up these geniuses and drop them off at DBO for at least a couple of hours to help them understand what an extremely bleak and desolate HIGH ALTITUDE terrain feels like.

Besides such suggestions being beyond the level of asinine, its very obvious ,that most of these posts are by members who are either trolling or have not done even a modicum of background research into either the terrain or the historical roots of the problem.
Most posts by experienced members either go without response or serious debate. Also, some members who would perhaps put the best village idiots to shame, continue their absolutely idiotic posts and suggestions in those lines with breathless exuberance to liberate all or parts of Aksai Chin / Tibet.

Will you guys PLEASE stop bringing down the standard of the thread!! Especially considering the fact that you are effectively jamming out the few members who are able to occasionally post valuable arguments and news analysis??

Admins, request kindly moderate to maintain the standards of BRF!
Last edited by Hari Nair on 08 Jun 2020 21:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 08 Jun 2020 21:57

Sravan wrote:
nam wrote:Here is what will happen if we "liberate" let's say Lhasa.

With PLA been driven out of Lhasa, it will become open season for the Chinese. All they have to do is keep firing their BM & CM from Chengdu fundamentally ravaging the entire city. Along with Tibetans, we will loosing troops, who have to be deployed to counter any future PLA invasion.

And what do we get in return? The "joy" of liberating what would be a barren Lhasa?


Why is it not open season in Aksai Chin or PoK right now?

As per your logic MRLS barrages should be happening in Aksai Chin and PoK.


Here is a perfect example of the type of posts I was referring earlier! @Sravan - kindly read up to some reasonable degree before you post!! - And NO, your post is NOT in keeping with BRF standards that I am aware - its more suited for amateur, childish forums elsewhere.
Last edited by Hari Nair on 08 Jun 2020 22:06, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 08 Jun 2020 22:00

Today just read about our artillery development programs and it confirmed my suspicions.

When BMCS was apparently been developed DRDO & OFB were working on it. I don't know if both managed to achieve, but apparently we reached 80% of the QR.

Army found that the solution to each other's problem was with the other one. And both hated each other so much, they refused to share it with the other :roll:

It required army to read them the riot act to make them behave.

Such is the state of our GoI entities.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 08 Jun 2020 22:12

nam wrote:Here is what will happen if we "liberate" let's say Lhasa.

With PLA been driven out of Lhasa, it will become open season for the Chinese. All they have to do is keep firing their BM & CM from Chengdu fundamentally ravaging the entire city. Along with Tibetans, we will loosing troops, who have to be deployed to counter any future PLA invasion.

And what do we get in return? The "joy" of liberating what would be a barren Lhasa?


Begs the question what exactly are we going to use the mountain strike corps for?

If we do intend to take aksai chin then we will be cutting off their main western road G219 connecting tibet with Xinjiang East Turkestan. It only make sense to cut off the main eastern road G318 from Lhasa to Sichuan as well (let's say at Nyingchi - after that their nearest "mainland city" Chengdu is a full 1600km via a single lain road with no natural cover). That just leaves the northern roads and rail connections to Qinghai for IAF to interdict. That will give us 1000km plus buffer across from our border and the war will turn from mountain warfare to mostly air interdiction, behind the lines sabotage operations of logistics and lobing long range missiles/airstrikes.

We know that PLA does not man the whole of LAC, It long logistic tail precludes it. But its not just the border, its entire hold on the Tibet is weak, it does not make sense to defeat them at the border, only to move the LAC a few kilometres but let them keep the entire province so that they can attack us again when they are ready.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 08 Jun 2020 22:32

Hari Nair wrote:
Sravan wrote:
Why is it not open season in Aksai Chin or PoK right now?

As per your logic MRLS barrages should be happening in Aksai Chin and PoK.


Here is a perfect example of the type of posts I was referring earlier! @Sravan - kindly read up to some reasonable degree before you post!! - And NO, your post is NOT in keeping with BRF standards that I am aware - its more suited for amateur, childish forums elsewhere.



Save the name calling and machoism for the Chinese, not against fellow Brfites. If you don’t have the stomach for such a conversation, sit on the bench and watch it transpire. Take some blood pressure pills if it helps. This narrative needs to be supported and grown to permanently solve China and Pak. Your methods don’t work, the last 70 years have shown that. Thank you.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Indranil » 08 Jun 2020 22:51

Sravan ji, there is a saying in almost all languages I know, "Jo garaj te hai, woh ...", "barking dogs, ...", "empty vessels ... "

May we have your qualifications on this topic before we hear your pompous talk? Hari Nair is a TP of helicopter programs for high altitude warfare.

Either desist or face the consequence. Soft warning to you.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby anupamd » 08 Jun 2020 22:51

Sravan wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:
Save the name calling and machoism for the Chinese, not against fellow Brfites. If you don’t have the stomach for such a conversation, sit on the bench and watch it transpire.


You have no idea who you are talking with! He is probably one of few BRFrite with first hand experience of the region.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-nair-1 ... bdomain=in

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 08 Jun 2020 22:54

https://www.project-syndicate.org/comme ... ey-2020-06


India’s Appeasement Policy Toward China Unravels

Jun 5, 2020
BRAHMA CHELLANEY

Last month’s swift and well-coordinated incursions by People’s Liberation Army troops into the icy borderlands of India’s Ladakh region were likely the product of months of preparation. The aggression – and the fact that Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi didn't see it coming – shows just how miserably his China policy has failed.

NEW DELHI – Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi is “not in a good mood,” US President Donald Trump recently declared, as he offered to mediate India’s resurgent border conflict with China. After years of bending over backward to appease China, Modi has received yet another Chinese encroachment on Indian territory. Will this be enough to persuade him to change his approach?

While India was preoccupied with the COVID-19 crisis, China was apparently planning its next attempt to change the region’s territorial status quo by force. Last month’s swift and well-coordinated incursions by People’s Liberation Army troops into the icy borderlands of India’s Ladakh region were likely the product of months of preparation. The PLA has now established heavily fortified camps in the areas it infiltrated, in addition to deploying weapons on its side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC), within striking distance of Indian deployments.

China’s “unexpected” maneuver should not have been unexpected at all. Last August, China’s government vigorously condemned India’s establishment of Ladakh – including the Chinese-held Aksai Chin Plateau – as a new federal territory. (China seized Aksai Chin in the 1950s, after gobbling up Tibet, which had previously served as a buffer with India.) And the PLA had been conducting regular combat exercises near the Indian border this year.

Deception, concealment, and surprise often accompany China’s use of force, with Chinese leaders repeatedly claiming that military preemption was a defensive measure. Its latest assault on India – which China claims is the actual aggressor – was taken straight from this playbook.

Yet Modi did not see the Chinese incursions coming. His vision seems to have been clouded by the naive hope that, by appeasing China, he could reset the bilateral relationship and weaken China’s ties with Pakistan, another revisionist state that lays claims to sizable swaths of Indian territory.

The China-Pakistan axis has long generated high security costs for India and raised the specter of a two-front war. That is why some Indian leaders have pursued a “defensive wedge strategy,” in which the status quo power seeks to drive a wedge between two allied revisionist states, so that it can focus its capabilities on the more threatening challenger.

In 1999, the first prime minister from Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party, Atal Bihari Vajpayee, sought to win over Pakistan by visiting the country on the inaugural trip of a new bus service from Delhi to Lahore. Vajpayee was rewarded for his “bus diplomacy” with a stealth invasion by Pakistan’s powerful military of the Indian border zone of Kargil. This triggered a localized war, in which both sides lost several hundred soldiers before the status quo ante was restored.

Unlike Vajpayee, Modi has focused his attention on China – with similarly disastrous results. In fact, soon after becoming prime minister in 2014 – and just hours before hosting Chinese President Xi Jinping for a summit meeting – he learned that PLA troops had elbowed their way into southern Ladakh’s Chumar area, which lies along the LAC, and built a temporary road there.

The summit was portrayed as a success, even though the Chinese did not withdraw until weeks later, after India agreed to demolish local defensive fortifications. This was the beginning of a policy not of reconciliation, but of appeasement, the costs of which continue to mount.

On a trip to Beijing the next year, Modi surprised his own administration by announcing a decision to issue electronic tourist visas to Chinese nationals upon their arrival in India. He also delisted China as a “country of concern,” in an effort to court Chinese investment. Instead, the move opened India up to even more dumping by Chinese firms. On Modi’s watch, China has more than doubled its trade surplus with India to $60 billion per year – nearly equal to India’s annual defense spending.

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Meanwhile, the PLA has continued to encroach on disputed territories. In mid-2017, Indian troops were pushed into another standoff with the PLA – this time, at Doklam, a small and desolate Himalayan plateau where Chinese-ruled Tibet meets the northeastern Indian state of Sikkim and the Kingdom of Bhutan. Indian troops stood up to the Chinese, as the PLA attempted to build a road to the India border through the uninhabited plateau that Bhutan, an Indian ally, regards as its own territory. The standoff lasted 73 days, before China and India agreed to disengage.

India declared the Doklam disengagement a tactical victory. But over the next several months, China steadily expanded its troop deployments by building permanent military structures, thereby gaining control of much of Doklam. Despite being the de facto guarantor of Bhutan’s security, India failed to defend the tiny country’s territorial sovereignty.

Yet Modi maintained India’s appeasement policy. In 2018, his government backed away from official contact with the Dalai Lama and Tibet’s India-based government-in-exile. At the same time, as Xi later revealed, Modi proposed an annual “informal” bilateral summit – a proposal Xi gladly accepted, because high-level meetings aid China’s “engagement with containment” strategy toward India. Two such summits have now been held, as well as 14 other meetings between the two leaders.

And what has Modi gotten for his troubles? China has stepped up its territorial revisionism, while raking in growing profits from the bilateral economic relationship (though, to be sure, India did recently tighten its policy on foreign direct investment, so that any flows from China must be pre-approved).

Modi has himself to blame for this state of affairs. With his excessive personalization of policy and stubborn strategic naiveté, he has shown himself not as the diplomatically deft strongman he purports to be, but as a kind of Indian Neville Chamberlain. Unless he learns from his mistakes and changes his policy toward China, India’s people – and territorial sovereignty – will pay the price.

Sravan
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 08 Jun 2020 23:14

anupamd wrote:
Sravan wrote:


You have no idea who you are talking with! He is probably one of few BRFrite with first hand experience of the region.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-nair-1 ... bdomain=in


And you are speaking with someone who has the leading edge experience in developing relevant network centric warfare equipment and command and control infrastructure for military use.

Someone with expertise in sensor fusion, data fusion, mapping & localization and routing and dispatch for huge autonomous fleets at a continental level.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 08 Jun 2020 23:17

Deans wrote:Rather that pipe dreams of liberating Tibet, what is doable is taking back some of the 600 odd Sq km we allowed the chinese to take,
during UPA 1 & 2. Its possible in the Demchok area in southern Ladakh - which can threaten to cut the G-219 highway and their base at Ngari.
The opening of the Rohtang tunnel will simplify logistics if we have to station a force in Demchok.

Do we know where all this 600 sq km is distributed?

Demchok seems to be hardly 50-60km from G-219 and Ngari. Close to artillery range. So a good area to focus on. But it looks like there is some work to do here - G maps has the road from Fukche marked as a minor road and seems to be mostly un-metalled. While the connection to Hanle (and a better road) is shorter, it also goes via what's marked as Photi La, and seems steep. Compared to this route, the route via Dungti is along the Indus, so upgrading it should be doable and would provide a viable alternate route. The Fukche ALG still seems to be unpaved - hope further upgrades are on the cards.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 08 Jun 2020 23:40

Sravan wrote:
anupamd wrote:
You have no idea who you are talking with! He is probably one of few BRFrite with first hand experience of the region.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-nair-1 ... bdomain=in


And you are speaking with someone who has the leading edge experience in developing relevant network centric warfare equipment and command and control infrastructure for military use.

Someone with expertise in sensor fusion, data fusion, mapping & localization and routing and dispatch for huge autonomous fleets at a continental level.

So that makes you an expert in border management and mountain warfare? Just throwing some fancy jargon in response to a post from someone who has actually been there during his service only reflects poorly on you. Many of us are indeed experts in various areas, but no one is an expert in everything. The discussion here is not about sensor fusion and autonomous fleets, whatever that is, but about challenges in defending the tallest mountain border in the world. So, the word of someone who has worked/travelled in that area would carry a lot of weight in this thread, that compared to, say, yours.

For the past few pages, you've succeeded in derailing this thread with fantastical nonsense, despite multiple requests for some research and realism from your side, which you've kept ignoring. I, for one, have asked you specific questions/suggestions/hints as to why what you're proposing is not easy and straightforward, and spending some time with a map would make it obvious. But it seems no can do. Can't force a horse to drink the water, I suppose. Fine, but at least stop trolling, when so many people have asked the same of you.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 08 Jun 2020 23:50

What has this thread got to that one is questioning and being derisive to an experienced IAF officer (retd.) on their expertise?

Edit: Post reported.

yensoy
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 08 Jun 2020 23:57

Sravan wrote:
anupamd wrote:You have no idea who you are talking with! He is probably one of few BRFrite with first hand experience of the region.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/hari-nair-1 ... bdomain=in

And you are speaking with someone who has the leading edge experience in developing relevant network centric warfare equipment and command and control infrastructure for military use.
Someone with expertise in sensor fusion, data fusion, mapping & localization and routing and dispatch for huge autonomous fleets at a continental level.

That sounds awfully like a Beltway Bandit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltway_bandit to me :D

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby CRamS » 09 Jun 2020 00:08

If Brahma Chellaney has been brutal to ModiJi, Pappu's Shook Law on his twitter line has all but declared ModiJi to be a coward and latest Chinese maneuver as a worst debacle than his grand pa, Nehru's debacle in 1962 :-).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sudarshan » 09 Jun 2020 00:10

^ The above sounds like "I make the weapons, so you should defer to me on how to use them."

I'm out with this, will lurk from now on.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sravan » 09 Jun 2020 00:12

---POST DELETED---
Last edited by Rakesh on 09 Jun 2020 00:50, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Unnecessary Thread Derailment. User has been banned for one month.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 09 Jun 2020 00:20

Sravan, in light of your strong background & experience, I think it is best that you touch base with the decision makers in India. Do not waste your time on BRF. Requesting you to stop derailing this thread has not worked, so now I will be revoking your posting privileges for a month. Please take this ban in the right spirit and invest your energies where it will matter. Thank You.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 09 Jun 2020 00:24

^^^ Admiral, you should be re-named Judge for your judiciously quick use of the gavel lately :D

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 09 Jun 2020 00:29

Hari Nair wrote:Dear Members,
I always assumed BRF has a quality and a certain gravitas of debate.
....
Admins, request kindly moderate to maintain the standards of BRF!

Dear Sir,

The issue has been resolved. Thank You.

Rakesh

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 09 Jun 2020 00:49

Would anyone have a theory on why does the PLA think it can create a standoff and get what it wants? Why are they so confident that India will not escalate? or even do a counter incursion?

I am trying to understand the reason behind their confidence.

I can see Chinis doing something like this with smaller countries. They could not get what they in Doklam. It is not as if India will agree to change a status quo so openly, specially a one which was using force.

They may have demands, but i am not sure why are they so confident of getting whatever they want.

Trying to understand why would Chini make a enemy of a it's second largest market after US.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Prasad » 09 Jun 2020 01:00

chola,
there is a heli base in ngari from which demchok is about 56km.

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/12 ... 1746022402

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 09 Jun 2020 01:16

nam wrote:Would anyone have a theory on why does the PLA think it can create a standoff and get what it wants? Why are they so confident that India will not escalate? or even do a counter incursion?

I am trying to understand the reason behind their confidence.

I can see Chinis doing something like this with smaller countries. They could not get what they in Doklam. It is not as if India will agree to change a status quo so openly, specially a one which was using force.

They may have demands, but i am not sure why are they so confident of getting whatever they want.

Trying to understand why would Chini make a enemy of a it's second largest market after US.

Its a low risk, high-reward thing for them. There is almost no risk of India starting a war over 8 km of desert and until the roads are built, India can't really do the same thing.

The only way India can retaliate is indirectly, by boosting the forward deployment and forcing the Chinese to match the deployment levels.

India needs to finish building the roads ASAP and get logistical parity with the Chinese. Then India can also start playing this game.


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