India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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nam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 11 Jun 2020 02:32

ldev wrote:Also the total PLAAF inventory of the DF-15 is about 1000 units. The DF-16 is newer and probably deployed in the mid double digits. And the PLAAF will not be able to move all of their short range missiles to the western theater from their present locations opposite the Taiwan Straits. Only a small fraction will be available to target India.


That got me thinking. How will the Chini transport their BM in to tibet? It has to be trains. Are they air transportable?

We should target the train line and any bridges on the roads which connects Tibet to Hanland. Make it difficult to get BM resupplies.

Even mobilization of 100 BM will be visible to us on satellites.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 11 Jun 2020 02:55

The latest on line edition of Force magazine gives a very detailed
anslysis of the situ and why China has behaved thus.It is a part of the planned pincer movemrnt with Pak to weaken our hold on Siachen ,leading in thc future to even its loss,and strengthening China's hold of Indian territory in Aksai Chin,the security of the Karakorum highway, the OBOR link from China through Tibet,etc.Pak and Chinz have been conducting several joint exercises precisely for the same,details given. Stalling Indian infra development ,giving us better logistic capability allowing us to defend the region better, would hamper this pernicious design . Thus the planned intrusions in the " fingers" to prevent our earlier patrolling protocol ,"possession being 9/10ths of the law", in an area which China disputes with us.Past time for us to also use non-military aces in the pack like the two " T" cards.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 11 Jun 2020 04:14

ramdas wrote:Would'nt runway targeting be inefficient ? With accurate missiles (ballistic or supersonic cruise) targeting aircraft shelters would be more profitable. True that the DF-16 is not there in sufficient numbers right now, but that can change in the next 2 years or so. A large number of brahmos on our side, for starters, could help our cause and enable us to give back almost as good as we get.


And the S400 should be fully inducted by then so that should help with most if not all interceptions of the DF-16s. Brahmos has to be the extended range variants because some of these PLAAF DF-15s will be firing from the edge of the Tibet Plateau and could be 500-600 kms way. The Brahmos ER should be able to target the launcher sites. DF-16s are longer ranged and will be out of range of the Brahmos and so will have to be intercepted by the S-400.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VinodTK » 11 Jun 2020 05:52


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VinodTK » 11 Jun 2020 05:58

Chinese air activity goes down, limited troop pullback effected
Indian and Chinese air force fighters remained on the ground, with negligible air activity noticed over the past two days, even as disengagement of troops picked up at two out of four points in the eastern Ladakh sector, officials watching the situation said on Wednesday.

The PLA Air Force fighter activity has come down considerably since military commander talks on June 6.

Fighter air activity was nil on Tuesday while there was some air movement in Aksai Chin region on Wednesday, said the officials cited above, adding that there was significant reduction of Chinese vehicles at patrolling point 14 at Galwan Nullah and a decrease in PLA troops at the contentious finger 4 in the Pangong Tso sector.

The PLA has already moved out 15 high-speed interceptor boats from the finger 4 area of the high-altitude lake.

According to senior officials, the reduction of air activity and the withdrawal from the two most contested points in eastern Ladakh means that disengagement will pick up in the coming days, with military commanders on both sides in touch with each other.

While the annual summer military exercises are on in China’s Xinjiang region, the air forces on both sides conducted combat air patrol sorties around the stand-off area with air defences ready across the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Both the Indian Air Force (IAF) and PLAAF (People’s Liberation Army Air Force) had been flying their platforms since the stand-off between the two countries’ armies began a month ago in the Galwan and Pangong Tso areas of eastern Ladakh.

The PLAAF brought in additional strength of half-a-squadron of fighters to the western Xinjiang region in the name of military exercises and had not only activated its air defences but also all the air bases—Kashgar, Hotan, Yarkand, Korla, Ngari-Gunsa—in the region. The Ministry of External Affairs remains tight-lipped about the ground situation in eastern Ladakh, but it is understood that the disengagement will be done slowly and steadily by the two armies with the military commanders being in touch with each other.

Even though the Chinese PLAAF has undertaken a number of sorties in the vicinity of eastern Ladakh like the Indian Air Force, senior Indian military commanders believe that this fighter flying was on account of exercises. “As we have no confirmation that the fighters were loaded with ammunition and missiles, we believe that the Chinese Air Force was participating in military exercises. Weaponising the aerial platform would have indicated the intent of the Chinese military,” a senior official said.

Senior IAF officials said the loading of air-to-air missiles is a sure indicator of the adversary’s intent as the seekers of missiles have limited shelf life and hence there is no point in loading the fighters with expensive weapons if there is no hostile intention

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VinodTK » 11 Jun 2020 06:07

India deploys main battle tanks closer to Chinese border

Writeup + embedded video of tanks being transported by train

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 11 Jun 2020 07:16

India working on two roads in Ladakh amid border row

India is working on two key roads near the China border in eastern Ladakh — the site of a tense weeks-long border stand-off with its northern neighbour — to provide connectivity to an important forward area that the military calls Sub-Sector North (SSN), two senior officers familiar with the developments said on Monday.

While the first is the strategic Darbuk-Shyok-Daulat Beg Oldi (DS-DBO) road that provides connectivity to the country’s northern-most outpost, Daulat Beg Oldi, the second road being built from Sasoma to Saser La could eventually provide an alternative route to DBO near the Karakoram pass, said one of the two officers. The Sasoma-Saser La road axis is south-west of DBO.

Both projects are being executed by the Border Roads Organisation (BRO), which is ferrying 11,815 workers to areas near the China border in Ladakh, Himachal Pradesh and Uttarakhand for building strategic roads, as first reported by Hindustan Times on May 31.

India is not allowing the border confrontation with China to hinder strategic road projects in forward areas, including the Ladakh sector, where soldiers of the two nations are eyeball-to-eyeball at four locations along the Line of Actual Control (LAC), said the second officer cited above.

The current Chinese troop build-up in the Galwan valley threatens the critical 255-km DS-DBO road (also known as the SSN road), and top experts and China watchers have argued that India should build an alternative road to DBO.

The road from Sasoma to Saser La, at a height of almost 17,800 feet, is a tough project that falls under “Hardness Index-III”, the BRO’s top-most classification for hard projects, the second official added. Experts believe that the road can be extended to Brang Sa, Murgo and eventually DBO in the long term. BRO officials weren’t available for a comment.

“There’s a 200% need to have an alternative road to DBO in Sub-Sector North. The DS-DBO road can be interdicted at several choke points by Chinese forces during hostilities. While the road from Sasoma to Saser La can connect with DBO, it will be an engineering challenge due to the terrain. It may require construction of a tunnel too,” said Lieutenant General BS Jaswal (retd), a former Northern Army commander.

HT reported on May 27 that if the DS-DBO project is blocked, the Indian Army will be forced to use aerial supply lines and also build an arduous alternative route linking Sasoma to Murgo to DBO through the glaciated Saser La. Two years ago, the BRO said the Sasoma-Saser La road would be the world’s first motorable glaciated road.

Lieutenant General DS Hooda (retd), also a former Northern Army commander, said the construction of Sasoma-Saser La road in the glaciated terrain posed a huge challenge, especially in the final patches near Saser La.

“If we can build this road and further connect it to DBO, it could provide an alternative route during summer months. However, the all-weather DS-DBO road will remain very important for the army,” Hooda said.

The defence ministry told Parliament’s standing committee on defence last year that the Sasoma-Saser La road was a challenging project because of its peculiarities.

“Due to peculiarity of formation and shifting of moraines, the road suffers continuous shifting resulting in various gradients… The Central Road Research Institute has been approached for providing solution and the proposal based on CRRI recommendation is being prepared,” the ministry told the panel.

Amid the border stand-off, top officials said the BRO would complete all 61 strategic roads assigned to it along the China border by December 2022 for swifter mobilisation of troops and stores to forward areas.

A day after the external affairs ministry said that India and China will continue military and diplomatic contacts to resolve the border stand-off, defence minister Rajnath Singh met the chief of defence staff and the three service chiefs and reviewed the situation along the disputed border in the Ladakh sector.

An hours-long meeting on Saturday between a delegation led by Lieutenant General Harinder Singh, commander of Leh-based 14 Corps, and a Chinese delegation headed by Major General Liu Lin, commander of the South Xinjiang military region, at Moldo on the Chinese side of the LAC ended without a breakthrough.

The external affairs ministry said the meeting “took place in a cordial and positive atmosphere” and both sides agreed to work towards peacefully resolving the situation.

In the first official acknowledgement of a troop build-up along the disputed border with China. Singh last week said a significant number of Chinese troops were present along the LAC and the Indian Army had matched the neighbour’s military moves.

China has marshalled close to 5,000 soldiers and deployed tanks and artillery guns on its side of the disputed border in the Ladakh sector, where India has also sent military reinforcements, as reported by HT on May 26.

The situation of the ground remains unchanged in the midst of efforts to break the stalemate, said officials. They added that increased Chinese air activity had been observed on the other side of the LAC during the last few days.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 11 Jun 2020 07:21

A few data points.

The strategic road to DBO

Of the possible triggers cited for the People’s Liberation Army’s (PLA) targeting of Indian territory along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in eastern Ladakh, the construction of the 255-km long Darbuk-Shyokh-Daulat Beg Oldie (DSDBO) all-weather road is possibly the most consequential.

Running almost parallel to the LAC, the DSDBO road, meandering through elevations ranging between 13,000 ft and 16,000 ft, took India’s Border Roads Organisation (BRO) almost two decades to construct.

Its strategic importance is that it connects Leh to DBO, virtually at the base of the Karakoram Pass that separates China’s Xinjiang Autonomous Region from Ladakh.

DBO is the northernmost corner of Indian territory in Ladakh, in the area better known in Army parlance as Sub-Sector North.

DBO has the world’s highest airstrip, originally built during the 1962 war but abandoned until 2008, when the Indian Air Force (IAF) revived it as one of its many Advanced Landing Grounds (ALGs) along the LAC, with the landing of an Antonov An-32.

In August 2013, the IAF created history by landing one of its newly acquired Lockheed Martin C-130J-30 transport aircraft at the DBO ALG, doing away thereafter with the need to send helicopters to paradrop supplies to Army formations deployed along the disputed frontier.

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has acknowledged that “large numbers” of Chinese troops had massed along the LAC, and had “come a little further than they used to earlier”, making the situation “different” this time from earlier incidents between the two sides in the same region.

The Chinese build-up along the Galwan River valley region overlooks, and hence poses a direct threat to the DSDBO road.

The token mutual de-escalation of the two armies, ahead of a series of bilateral consultations between senior military and other officials, is expected to be completed over an extended period. The withdrawals are subject to reciprocal endorsement.

The DSDBO highway provides the Indian military access to the section of theTibet-Xinjaing highway that passes through Aksai Chin. The road runs almost parallel to the LAC at Aksai Chin, the eastern ear of erstwhile Jammu and Kashmir state that China occupied in the 1950s, leading to the 1962 war in which India came off worse.

The DSDBO’s emergence seemingly panicked China, evidenced by the 2013 intrusion by the PLA into the nearby Depsang Plains, lasting nearly three weeks.

DBO itself is less than 10 km west of the LAC at Aksai Chin. A military outpost was created in DBO in reaction to China’s occupation of Aksai Chin, and is at present manned by a combination of the Army’s Ladakh Scouts and the paramilitary Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP). Both forces regularly patrol the LAC.

There are additional strategic considerations in the area.

To the west of DBO is the region where China abuts Pakistan in the Gilgit-Baltistan area, once a part of the erstwhile Kashmir principality.

This is also the critical region where China is currently constructing the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC) in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir (PoK), to which India has objected.

As well, this is the region where Pakistan ceded over 5,180 sq km of PoK to China in 1963 under a Sino-Pakistan Boundary Agreement, contested by India.

***

What makes the DSDBO an “all-weather” road is the 37 prefabricated military truss bridges along it. Previously an old road, largely a track, existed along the same alignment as the pucca road, but was practically unusable during summer due to the flooding of the snow-fed Shyok river – or River of Death – and its tributaries, including the Chip Chap, Galwan, and Chang Chenmo that crisscross it.

The Shyok river itself is a tributary of the Indus, flowing through northern Ladakh and Gilgit-Baltistan. It eventually re-joins the Indus at Keris, east of Skardu.

In October 2019, Defence Minister Singh inaugurated a 500-m-long Bailey Bridge on the road. The bridge is named after Colonel Chewang Rinchen, an Indian Army hero from Ladakh. Located at 14,650 ft, it is believed to be the world’s highest such bridge.

An alternative route exists from Leh to Daulat Beg Oldie through the 17,500-ft-high Sasser Pass that was part of the ancient Silk Route connecting Leh to Yarkand. It leads from the Nubra Valley into the Upper Shyok Valley en route to China’s Karakoram Pass, indicating the topographical and strategic interlinking of the entire disputed region between India and China and to a lesser extent, Pakistan.

For most of the year bar a few summer months, Sassar La — or pass — is snow-bound and inaccessible. The BRO is currently building a “glaciated road” between Sasoma (north of Leh, near the Nubra river) to the Sasser Pass, but it could take several years to complete. But even when it is, the alternate DBDSO will remain critical to the Army and its defences in the region.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Roop » 11 Jun 2020 08:15

chola wrote:I said all this during Doklam after looking up pure numbers -- distance and bases. The numbers advantages were even greater then.


Yes you did. I remember it well, because what you said was so out of keeping with the general thinking on the forum (including my opinion).

And the 101 to 122 ratio in 4th gen fighters is a false narrative. The amount of J-11/J-10 aircraft in Tibet is around 10-15. The other aircraft are much further away.


More than that, the J10/J11 is itself not some magic machine like the F22/F35/Rafale. It would be hard-pressed to even compete with the F16 Blk 52. Why are we supposed to cower in fear at the thought of J10/J11 in theater?

The amount of dhoti shivering we have for the chinis is misplaced.


It is worse than misplaced, it is disgusting to watch. I'm not talking about this forum, really, I'm talking about various media/YT/Opp Party voices.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby la.khan » 11 Jun 2020 09:24

Was this posted here? As per Babaji
Dr. APR @drapr007
3 formations of IAF fighter jets took off from Bhuj and Adampur airbase last night, 1 of which went towards Karachi and 2 to Bahawalpur. Packages include Mig 29 & Sukhoi-30MKI.

What happen after that is classified and you may know about it in future.

9:33 PM · Jun 10, 2020

Bahawalpur imlpies JeM HQ and/or its chief MMA :twisted:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vsunder » 11 Jun 2020 09:35

A report on the final survey of the Bilaspur-Manali-Leh railway line

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3pWDpMIbVo

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 11 Jun 2020 09:41

VinodTK wrote:India deploys main battle tanks closer to Chinese border

Writeup + embedded video of tanks being transported by train

AFAIK there are no rail lines near the LAC.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2020 11:30

Chola and Roop that shivering is being orchestrated.

Keep track.


https://twitter.com/vipinrocs/status/12 ... 95265?s=09

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 11 Jun 2020 12:53


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rkirankr » 11 Jun 2020 16:15

Brahma Chellaney does not seem to be convinced
https://twitter.com/Chellaney/status/12 ... 8500171777

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 11 Jun 2020 16:28

Chini will one advantage. They will get to fire the first round.

Something to note is all Chini borders had Chinis firing the first shot. They have managed to keep that under control since the Vietnam war.

It is a matter of time, that habit will creep in. It will come soon, but I don't know if LAC will be the first place.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cyrano » 11 Jun 2020 16:28

abhik wrote:
VinodTK wrote:India deploys main battle tanks closer to Chinese border

Writeup + embedded video of tanks being transported by train

AFAIK there are no rail lines near the LAC.


On that face of it, it would seem that MBT supply chain logistics will be much more demanding than for towed artillery, man power & skillrequirements will be higher, engine power output will be lower affecting mobility, field tactics will need to adapt to choke points like deep gorges and mountain passes.

Could resident experts enlighten what are the advantages of MBTs like T90 and Arjun in high altitude and steep terrain like Ladakh ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 11 Jun 2020 16:31

In terms of narrative, the whole incident has been described from an Indian perspective. We got to be the victim. The Chini will have a tough time convincing anyone they are the victim, even if we decide to ...act.

I am noticing Taiwanese sharing IA truck, rail tank movements with great glee...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby TKiran » 11 Jun 2020 17:17

Galwan valley is the target. To camouflage pongong tso and naku la were reinforced.

Main aim is security architecture around the BRI. The next will be large scale reinforcements in Gilgit-Baltistan. Finally the taking over of daimar basha with China sovereignty.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Jun 2020 18:10

it's not over yet..
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 626/?amp=1

By Ajit K Dubey
New Delhi [India], June 11 (ANI): Even as India and China continue to discuss ways to reduce tensions in Eastern Ladakh, it is emerging that the Chinese Army has deployed its troops all along the over 4,000 kilometre-long Line of Actual Control after which India has also rushed its fighting formations to forward locations in Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh.
India and China have been engaged in one of the biggest disputes over territory in several years after the Chinese military started building up along the Line of Actual Control in May first week along the Ladakh sector and Sikkim where they came to the Naku La area and had a face-off with the Indian troops there.
"The Chinese military has done military build-up not only just in Ladakh but also in other sectors including Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh wherever it shares borders with us. The build-up includes troops and heavy weaponry which are deployed in rear positions," government sources told ANI here.
To avoid any possibility of any misadventure by the Chinese, we have rushed in our fighting formations to forward locations in all these sectors, the sources said.
The reserve brigades of a Corps with an area of responsibility including Himachal Pradesh have gone up to the Ladakh sector to provide backup and cushion to the 3 Infantry Division based in Karu there. Additional fighting formations have also been moved forward to the border locations in Himachal Pradesh where Chinese choppers had shown up in April.
In Uttarakhand also, additional troops have been deployed in the Harsil-Barahoti-Nelang Valley and other sectors as Chinese choppers had come there also before the build-up started and have been seen carrying out foot patrols.
In the Eastern sector starting from the Chicken's neck corridor, the training brigades of the Corps formations including the Sukna-based 33 Corps and Tezpur-based 4 Corps have been deployed on the front locations and a Brigade of the 17 Mountain Strike Corps is also ready for deployment, the sources said.
The Indian side has also rushed in its new ultra-light howitzers and other heavy weaponry to the forward locations for countering this build up on the other side by China.
When the Chinese build-up started, their choppers had started unusual activity at multiple locations including the Ladakh sector where they came right above the new bridge being built by the Indian Army to connect the all-important Durbuk-Shyok-DaulatBegOldie road with the Patrolling Point 14 in the Galwan area. The chopper had flown close to the Indian territory in Himachal Pradesh's Kinnaur district and Barahoti in Uttarakhand in an apparent bid to confuse the Indian side about their intentions all along the LAC.
Along the Line of Control in the Ladakh sector only, the Chinese side has deployed over 10,000 troops and heavy weaponry including tanks and long-range artillery guns and India wants that they should de-induct troops from the rear positions before, for the tensions to really end along the LAC.
India, at present, is talking to the Chinese military leadership for resolving the dispute at three sites including the Galwan area, Patrolling Point 15 (114 Brigade area) and Patrolling Point 17 (Hot Springs) at multiple levels from battalion commanders to the Corps Commander. (ANI)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 11 Jun 2020 19:10

nam wrote:Chini will one advantage. They will get to fire the first round.

Something to note is all Chini borders had Chinis firing the first shot. They have managed to keep that under control since the Vietnam war.

It is a matter of time, that habit will creep in. It will come soon, but I don't know if LAC will be the first place.


Yup the Chinese get to fire the first round - implicit in that is:
1. They get to choose when to start (will do it only after they have built their strength)
2. They get to choose where to start (they will do it only where they have a tactical advantage)
3. They get to choose how much to escalate (if air cover's their weak point then they will keep the conflict localised and use only small arms/artillery, cause they know we will not escalate).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 11 Jun 2020 19:11

No Arjuns,only T- series,much lighter,transportable by air.
The media blah about " an accord reached",in merely an understanding how to reduce tensions at the flashpoints. The two armies are still holding onto their current positions on the ground, with NO accord on the boundaries,which the Chins for decades have refused to settle,deliberately so they can keep on demanding more and more of Indian territory while they creep into our land foot by foot every day.

India must treat the Chins in the same coin,saying that Tibet is "Uttar India/ Bharat" whatever, from Buddhist times as the Enlightened One was INDIAN! Goodness Grscious Me! So,the entire boundary is up for grabs including Tibet. Let the Chins be forced to defend every inch of the border, let them fear an Indian attack to free Tibet; get the IN to mobilise and shadow every Chin warship,sub,MV, bumboat in the IOR ,making them feel weak at the knees. This will call for a huge investment in our military,long overdue ,and which requires swift decision- making and govt-to-govt deals for milware from diverse sources.We have a huge forex
reserve of approx $500billion. A small fraction of it as emergency funding for the current situ will strengthen the armed forces immensely and help plug the gaps that the Chins are exploiting as of now.

India standing firm openly defying China will invigorate many Asian nations looking for alternatives to being dragged into alliances either with China of the US. As was stated in one of the papers by a well-known politico, " we will have to fight our own battles". We did it in 1971,our finest hour,defying both the US and China who supported Pak immensely. That is the only way in which we can defend our sovereign interests,not expecting Uncle Sam,Comrade Putin or the Kangaroo of Oz to leap to our aid,!
Last edited by Philip on 11 Jun 2020 19:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 11 Jun 2020 19:12

India increases troop deployment along LAC | NewsX

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 11 Jun 2020 19:51

^^^^^

She actually says China has "infiltrated into".

If true, which I doubt, is a new development and actually the first shot has been fired.

Very serious stuff, if true.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 11 Jun 2020 19:53

NRao wrote:^^^^^

She actually says "infiltrated into".

If true, which I doubt, is a new development and actually the first shot has been fired.

Very serious stuff, if true.

It is corrected later as "deployed on their side of the LAC", so no.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jun 2020 20:58

Thank you abhik for setting the record straight. Let us not dhoti shiver, when there is no need to.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 11 Jun 2020 21:06

IMO, just like any other entity the PRC Politico-military complex has their own shades of gray.

It wouldn’t surprise me if this was some gambit by that new aggressive PLA Western General (with backing from Xi). Within the politburo, there is someone Doval is maintaining back Chanel communications with to try to de-escalate.

So this whole thing could be a Sundarji type situation, where you have an aggressive General & a disengaged political leadership giving the General a long leash.

But if the balloon does go up, it might be a golden opportunity to get back some land that was lost in 1962.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 11 Jun 2020 21:09

abhik wrote:
Yup the Chinese get to fire the first round - implicit in that is:
1. They get to choose when to start (will do it only after they have built their strength)
2. They get to choose where to start (they will do it only where they have a tactical advantage)
3. They get to choose how much to escalate (if air cover's their weak point then they will keep the conflict localised and use only small arms/artillery, cause they know we will not escalate).

They will only have control over 1 & 2 - not 3. It would be a mistake to give them control over 3, a mistake Nehru made and something hopefully everyone has learnt from.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jun 2020 21:59

Got this from a tweet....

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby schinnas » 11 Jun 2020 22:00

India should drag Cheen into a fight now and give it a solid thrashing, along with getting back strategic areas in Ladakh and Chambi valley.

If any captured cheeni soldiers desert, have them join BRO and complete all pending border roads and widen existing roads.

If and when conflict breaks out, India should use it's mighty airforce until end of Aksai Chin, which is the Indian border.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jun 2020 22:05

Look who is getting takleef over Nitin Gokhale getting recognition :lol:

https://twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/status/ ... 70308?s=20 ---> Why have I trusted Nitin Gokhale's reporting on the China-India border issues over other, more sensational claims that have since proven unreliable? Because in the years I've known him he's proven to be a patriot with good contacts and no political agenda interested in the facts.

https://twitter.com/NarangVipin/status/ ... 65568?s=20 ---> Jeff, this isn’t fair. I respect Nitin tremendously. But to suggest that he’s more patriotic than Shukla, Sushant Singh, Suhasini Haider, Pubby, Peri, Pandit, Ananth Krishnan, Indrani Bagchi, Nidhi Razdan, Rahul Kanwal, etc isn’t fair. They’re all seeking the facts without agenda.

https://twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/status/ ... 28678?s=20 ---> Come again? I didn't mention any of those names, many of whom are good friends and great reporters. You're reaching here, bud. All I mentioned were "sensational claims that have proven unreliable" and those are the reporters you thought of?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sumair » 11 Jun 2020 22:51

I have a sneeky feeling that a riposte is in works and thus the large Chinese movement along the entire LAC. Game of Brinkmanship under this facade of, "no bullet fired in 50 years." We dont have the option to blink and Chinese dont want a fight. Outcome almost predictable.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 11 Jun 2020 23:07

Rakesh wrote:Look who is getting takleef over Nitin Gokhale getting recognition :lol:

https://twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/status/ ... 70308?s=20 ---> Why have I trusted Nitin Gokhale's reporting on the China-India border issues over other, more sensational claims that have since proven unreliable? Because in the years I've known him he's proven to be a patriot with good contacts and no political agenda interested in the facts.

https://twitter.com/NarangVipin/status/ ... 65568?s=20 ---> Jeff, this isn’t fair. I respect Nitin tremendously. But to suggest that he’s more patriotic than Shukla, Sushant Singh, Suhasini Haider, Pubby, Peri, Pandit, Ananth Krishnan, Indrani Bagchi, Nidhi Razdan, Rahul Kanwal, etc isn’t fair. They’re all seeking the facts without agenda.

https://twitter.com/Cold_Peace_/status/ ... 28678?s=20 ---> Come again? I didn't mention any of those names, many of whom are good friends and great reporters. You're reaching here, bud. All I mentioned were "sensational claims that have proven unreliable" and those are the reporters you thought of?

IMO, this whole thing is demeaning. Why should some Gora analyst praising Nitin mean anything? This is just a symptom of the mental colonization of everyone involved.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 11 Jun 2020 23:09

More From Brahma Chellaney

https://twitter.com/Chellaney/status/12 ... 5904568320
Will disengagement in 2020 look like the 2017 Doklam disengagement, which showed that China doesn’t deviate from what it has set out to attain? As soon as that standoff ended, China embarked on permanent fortifications and occupied almost the entire Doklam

https://www.hindustantimes.com/columns/ ... Rn3yM.html
Let’s be clear. China’s latest aggression is very different from its Ladakh intrusions in the Depsang Plains (2013) and Chumar (2014) that had narrow tactical objectives. For example, it withdrew from Chumar after making India demolish local defensive fortifications.

The latest well-planned encroachments seem strategically geared to altering the frontier by grabbing vantage locations, whose control will place the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in a commanding position. By building bunkers and other concrete structures, such as between Pangong’s Fingers 4 and 8, PLA has signalled its intent to retain key land grabs.

Far from submitting to China’s aggression, India will make the necessary readjustments in its foreign and defence policies with the aim of imposing costs and thwarting Beijing’s larger hegemonic objectives. After all, how India emerges from its military stand-off with China will have an important bearing on its international standing and on Asian security.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 11 Jun 2020 23:13

An hour long .....................


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jun 2020 23:21

khan wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Look who is getting takleef over Nitin Gokhale getting recognition :lol:

IMO, this whole thing is demeaning. Why should some Gora analyst praising Nitin mean anything? This is just a symptom of the mental colonization of everyone involved.

Saar, the issue at hand is not that Nitin Gokhale is getting praised by a Gora. Gora or Kala is secondary and not even germane to the discussion. The issue is folks getting heartburn over his factual reporting.

A narrative of false reporting leads to dhoti shivering, which results in making incorrect decisions. The ones doing the false reporting have agendas to push. Wolves in Sheep's Clothing.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VinodTK » 11 Jun 2020 23:46

Rakesh wrote:Saar, the issue at hand is not that Nitin Gokhale is getting praised by a Gora. Gora or Kala is secondary and not even germane to the discussion. The issue is folks getting heartburn over his factual reporting.

A narrative of false reporting leads to dhoti shivering, which results in making incorrect decisions. The ones doing the false reporting have agendas to push. Wolves in Sheep's Clothing.


++Agreed 100%

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mort Walker » 11 Jun 2020 23:53

Someone is tweeting that India is buying 10,000 Excalibur Artillery shells from unkil, and will make a decision on THAAD at end of month. Yes, I know Twitter is lots of disinformation....
https://mobile.twitter.com/deepak_thor0 ... 7621361665

https://mobile.twitter.com/FrontalAssau ... 5846418433

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 12 Jun 2020 00:03

khan wrote:
abhik wrote:
Yup the Chinese get to fire the first round - implicit in that is:
1. They get to choose when to start (will do it only after they have built their strength)
2. They get to choose where to start (they will do it only where they have a tactical advantage)
3. They get to choose how much to escalate (if air cover's their weak point then they will keep the conflict localised and use only small arms/artillery, cause they know we will not escalate).

They will only have control over 1 & 2 - not 3. It would be a mistake to give them control over 3, a mistake Nehru made and something hopefully everyone has learnt from.


Giving them #3 would definitely be a mistake, but till date (last 20-30 years) we have hardly ever (never?) escalated, instead chosen to maintain the piss and let the diplomuts handle it (hasn't done us any good till date) at every occasion.


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