India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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NRao
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 13 Jun 2020 01:51

Boy, it took a very long time for the cat to leave the bag!!!!

Chinese diplomat tweets a twist to Ladakh standoff, sees link to Article 370

“India’s actions of unilaterally changing the status quo of Kashmir and continuing to exacerbate regional tensions have posed a challenge to the sovereignty of China and Pakistan and made the India-Pakistan relations and China-India relations more complex,” Wang tweeted.


Now Xi has included Pakistan too. :lol:
Last edited by NRao on 13 Jun 2020 01:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Karna » 13 Jun 2020 01:57

nachiket wrote:
Karna wrote:The silence from the political leadership is deafening as compared to URI surgical strikes and Balakot Bombings. Hence the loss in the battle of perception.

The silence from Xi Jinping has been deafening too. Wonder how that doesn't lead to a loss in the battle of perception for the Chinese.


My bad for not articulating my thoughts correctly. It may be perceived as deafening.

Since the Gov has been very strong on security matters it allows few individuals to provoke and goad the leadership to take action which might be counter productive which is what such articles are doing.

Like I highlighted in the previous thread we have key experts on cheen none other than the current EAM who has been an ambassador to cheen.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 13 Jun 2020 02:00


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 13 Jun 2020 02:02

This Chinese tweet corroborates perfectly what I posted as the reason for China creating this stand off NOW.

But alas they can only wish & hope for a weak Indian Govt to capitulate and forego or at least lay low on its claims to Gilgit-Baltistan & PoK. That ain't gonna happen.

Just like the Pakis in Kargil, the Chinese have an agressive opening tactical move but no easy mid-game or end game moves.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Karna » 13 Jun 2020 02:10

amar_p wrote:
"I think we are giving too much. credence to the superiority of Chinese strategic thinking. "


If anything we seen to have underestimated the space available for such thinking for an autocratic regime whose survival does not depend on winning elections every 4 or 5 years. They can and will do long term thinking since the regime offers the continuity to act over a period of time in support of what ever thinking they may come up with.

Doesn't automatically mean their thinking is always right or they will always succeed in realising their objectives.



+100..

That was my key takeaway from my experience as a student in cheen. They are in it for long term and every move is to achieve those goals. They will befriend you if it helps them today to only stab you later.

Cheen is the only economically strong country who doesn't needs to answer to its domestic audience and hence can take strategic steps.

2020 is the 100 yrs of CCP existence and 2049 is when they complete 100yrs of coming to power. And they have some ambitious target as part of its 100yr plan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 13 Jun 2020 02:13

NRao wrote:
abhik wrote:So as per this the Chinese have intruded 3km in the "Hot Springs area" also (not just finger 4-8) - where exactly is this?


Try 34.30 N 78.95 E

There is an ITBP post there. And, there is a natural hot spring.

Like the area between fingers 8 and 4, so too here there is an overlap between Indian and Chinese claims. The 3 kms, per Chinese is theirs. Per India China has not crossed their claimed line and therefore not intruded into Indian territory.

But then China has laid a claim to all of Ladakh.

Thanks for the co-ordinates. Honestly we should not accept this business of difference of "perception" and claims etc - once we start accepting this we are also accepting Chinese salami slicing as will keep extending their claim and keep building infrastructure into the grey zone. PLA need to to be kicked out permanently out of these areas (finger 4-8 and hotsprings) and any infrastructure they have build needs to be destroyed.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 13 Jun 2020 02:26

^^^^^

Absolutely.

China should be told to go back to the 1947 lines. Not April 2020. IMHO.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Karna » 13 Jun 2020 02:27

amar_p wrote:The silence from Indian leadership is not surprising, not because they lack courage, but because China has put a complex problem before India with suddenness and alacrity. Indian Govt is busy assessing the ramifications and evaluating its options on a scale which we have not encountered in recent times. And they realise the current standoff is much bigger than a border issue. A lot is at stake here, for China and for us, for years to come.

.


Yes this will be test of India's mettle. However, while cheen has used the peace on LAC to grow it won't allow India the same comfort.

It will antagonise India either covertly through na pork and such countries or overtly through their actions at LAC.

We have to factor this in. However what this has done has aroused lot of interests around cheen actions and hopefully this momentum can be maintained.

Again repeating what George Fernandes said, cheen is the real enemy no.1
Last edited by Gerard on 13 Jun 2020 03:22, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited for quote length

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 13 Jun 2020 02:54

Can we refrain from quoting the whole text (especiqlly of a voluminous post)? It just clutters the thread.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 13 Jun 2020 03:37

Cain Marko wrote:
ldev wrote:India desperately needs a 1000 or more long range cruise missiles, like the Tomahawk Block 2-TLAM or the Russian Kalibr M with a range of 2500km-3000km. That will ensure that any Chinese targeting of Indian population centers specially in the north and east with conventional SRBMs will be met with an Indian salvo of CMs that can reach all the way to Shanghai and Beijing. Being sub sonic cruise missiles travelling for 3-4 hours over China the losses will be significant but even if half reach their targets on the eastern Chinese seaboard it will be deterrence enough that China will not attack Indian population centers. Dibrugarh to Shanghai is about 2600 km and Dibrugarh to Beijing is about 2350 km.

Actually if the Chinese use BMs that would be playing into India hands. We already have a non strategic missile response to such things.... It's called Shouurya. It is virtually undoable and could easily reach Chinese nerve centers in the east coast. Provided of course that these have been produced... No news at all on this front.

No need for kalibr or tomakawk. Much more expensive but far more effective.


Range, range, that is what India needs. And Shourya has a maximum range of 700 km. India needs to reach the manufacturing, commercial and political heartland of China all of which are between 2000km, Guandong province to 2600 km away, Beijing and Shanghai from eastern Assam.

India has to be prepared for a full spectrum war with China just short of the nuclear threshold. That means everything from pushing and shoving by troops at the border all the way up to a conventional missile exchanges of population centers to degrade civilian morale. India's Brahmos and even Shaurya if it exists will only reach targets in Tibet and limited parts of Yunaan province, not even the city of Chengdu and in all this area there are limited military and even more limited civilian targets. In contrast China's SRBM's have an extremely target rich environment within their range in northern and eastern India. If China targets India's power and communication nodes and northern and eastern cities the war will be very much in India's heartland and in contrast China will show that it's citizens are living a normal life in Beijing, Shanghai, etc. There has to be equivalent damage in Chinese cities and communication and power networks but for that India needs platforms that have the reach to get there.

The other option is to have IN ships in the South China sea with Brahmos missiles that can reach eastern Chinese targets. India's limitations are the number of ships that it has, the limited number of Brahmos missiles (16) per ship and the high vulnerability to Chinese anti ship missiles like the DF-21D. Even the US navy is wary of those missiles now and is building up a island based missile force from Okinawa to Guam to counter Chinese SRBMs.
Last edited by ldev on 13 Jun 2020 03:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 13 Jun 2020 03:41

The question is what exactly does China want?

Is it really just an issue of Ladakh, Panong Tso, Galwan Valley, Doklam etc.? Or is the border flare up just a pretext to put India on the defensive and distract from other issues such as the closeness with the US, the Quad, the post Covid world and an enquiry into Covid and encouraging companies to move from China to India i.e. is it all about keeping up the pressure at the border long enough and then "solving" it by going back to the status quo with of course some small salami slicing as a fait accompli so that India breathes a sigh of relief by November/December and then decides not to pursue any kind of anti China grouping/activities.

If this is the case it will be a classic application of Sun Tzu's "winning the war without firing a shot".

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Jun 2020 03:47

ldev wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:Actually if the Chinese use BMs that would be playing into India hands. We already have a non strategic missile response to such things.... It's called Shouurya. It is virtually undoable and could easily reach Chinese nerve centers in the east coast. Provided of course that these have been produced... No news at all on this front.

No need for kalibr or tomakawk. Much more expensive but far more effective.


Range, range, that is what India needs. And Shourya has a maximum range of 700 km. India needs to reach the manufacturing, commercial and political heartland of China all of which are between 2000km, Guandong province to 2600 km away, Beijing and Shanghai from eastern Assam.

India's Brahmos and even Shaurya if it exists will only reach targets in Tibet and limited parts of Yunaan province, not even the city of Chengdu.

You are mistaken. Shaurya has enough range to hit around 2500km with smaller warheads of 500kg. Please see Arun S's analysis on this.

For lesser ranges it'll have flatter trajectories making intercepts very difficult.

In terms of performance, the only problem is CEP compared to a subsonic CM or brahmos. But then if it's down to targeting population centers as you suggested, that hardly matters.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 13 Jun 2020 03:53

Cain Marko wrote:
ldev wrote:
Range, range, that is what India needs. And Shourya has a maximum range of 700 km. India needs to reach the manufacturing, commercial and political heartland of China all of which are between 2000km, Guandong province to 2600 km away, Beijing and Shanghai from eastern Assam.

India's Brahmos and even Shaurya if it exists will only reach targets in Tibet and limited parts of Yunaan province, not even the city of Chengdu.

You are mistaken. Shaurya has enough range to hit around 2500km with smaller warheads of 500kg. Please see Arun S's analysis on this.

For lesser ranges it'll have flatter trajectories making intercepts very difficult.

In terms of performance, the only problem is CEP compared to a subsonic CM or brahmos. But then if it's down to targeting population centers as you suggested, that hardly matters.


Firstly beyond the public displays about 8-10 years ago there has been no further news on on it. Second, a two stage IRBM is inherently more costly to produce than either a single stage SRBM or a long range cruise missile. Shaurya is a two stage cannesterized missile I believe. Because if cost was not a consideration India should just produce a 1000-1200 Agni 3s and arm them with conventional warheads. Any missile that is tasked with taking on China's SRBM force has to be cheap enough to be produced in the hundreds if not a thousand at least.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 13 Jun 2020 05:03

If possible, take down Xi.

India-China border feud: Are the bargaining chips changing hands?

...........

Here are some of the factors that could put a limit on China's capacity to drive a hard border bargain, and as a consequence, give India a bit more leverage in the post-Covid world order.

Leverage along LAC

There are several places along the LAC where the People's Liberation Army (PLA) is militarily weak, giving Indian army an upper hand. Indian troops have an advantage at many places, and our strength has been bolstered over the past few years with more mountain forces and better equipment and infrastructure.

Shift in maritime balance

While China enjoys a continental superiority, the maritime domain is a weak spot in Chinese strategic formulation — in particular China's commercial and energy interest to which maritime space is crucial. India is well-positioned to shift the conflict to the waters of the Indian Ocean and the South China Sea. Groupings like Quad could also influence the maritime balance in East Asia.

A "collective whole"

Many nations across the globe are joining hands against China. This "collective whole" is already creating pressure to ensure that China be held accountable for its actions. Countries are also calling out China over the abuse and violation of human rights. The US Senate has approved a bill to sanction China over repression of Uighur Muslims in the country. The bill was backed by lawmakers on both sides.

The status quo factor

At the Lieutenant General-level talks last Saturday, Delhi firmly conveyed its demand to China for restoring the status quo as existed in April along the border. The military leadership has communicated that infrastructure development will go on in Indian territory as China has already undertaken developmental projects on its side.

At the meet, India stuck to a two-point agenda — restoring the status quo of April, and an immediate pullback of Chinese troops and equipment from inside Indian territory and along the LAC.

Rising discontent

Some reports have talked of the rising discontent in China owing to the failure of the government and CPC to evenly distribute economic prosperity. These reports have put the spotlight on Xi Jinping's pressing problem — the great Covid bungle, criticism of his policies and social instability caused by a slump in production. For the party, these are some of the biggest challenges it has faced in years.

New 'balancing force'

With Delhi taking the early lead in forming the Saarc Covid-19 Emergency Fund, India did well in not only combating the coronavirus internally but also assisting nations in the region and beyond, including the US. This much-needed outreach increased its goodwill and linkages.

If the world order changes after the pandemic as is being widely expected, it could give India the heft to seek a fair, reasonable and acceptable solution to the boundary question.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rishirishi » 13 Jun 2020 05:52

NRao wrote:Boy, it took a very long time for the cat to leave the bag!!!!

Chinese diplomat tweets a twist to Ladakh standoff, sees link to Article 370

“India’s actions of unilaterally changing the status quo of Kashmir and continuing to exacerbate regional tensions have posed a challenge to the sovereignty of China and Pakistan and made the India-Pakistan relations and China-India relations more complex,” Wang tweeted.


Now Xi has included Pakistan too. :lol:


This is just to increase their bargaining power. Stake the maximum claim and settle at better terms.

China is economically much more powerful then India. But that does not automatically mean militarily. Both have nukes, so any large adventure is not likely, on either side. China has a long supply route to the LAC. IAF will have the upper hand in the air, and would probably be able to take out the supply lines to LAC. Expect Ukil and western help for India, because they also fear China. All in all, there is a fair chance that it may end up in humiliation for the PLA. The Chinease leadership will not want to risk such humiliation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 13 Jun 2020 05:52

China claims all of Ladakh and Ar.Pradesh to justify sending its troops anywhere across the border and obtaining concessions from us. We stupidly react dfending only the border drawn on a map in response and simply make eccuses for their aggression by saying " perceptions differ"! We never claim in return all of Tibet, all of Xinjiang,whatever.Neither do we cross into parts of Tibet occupied by China.Yet we shout from the ramparts that POK will soon be ours,ad nauseum,but can do bugger all with the Chin invasions that occurs with regularity, other than stop them where ee can while "without firing a shot" they keep advancing into ours time and time again.

Apart from border creep,what they immediately do after some sort of agreement is reached to defuse tensions, is to build a huge infrastructure on their side,close to the disputed flashpoint where a large number of troops,AVs and heavy armour can be stationed,with helipads to support attack helos. From this solid support base they further encroach into our territory at a future occasion. Until we do to the Chinese what they are doing to us,this land- grabbing by the accursed Chins will go on forever until one day the fighting starts.By then we may have lost too many strategic points to prevent a Sino- Pak link up in Aksai Chin,threatening Siachen ,the Chicken's neck,and Ar.Pradesh for example.

There is a secondary strategy of the Chins.While we spend a bomb on maintaining a huge army of 250,000+ in the mountains,they massively saturate the IOR with warships and subs using their bases at Djibouti,Gwadar/ Jiwani,Hanbantota/ Colombo, E.African coast,attempts in the Maldives,Burma ,threatening to cut off our very own energy supplies and MV trade in our own backyard! I was laughes at 25 years ago for predicting the PLAN's arrival in the IOR post 2000. We now have at least 8 PLAN warships and subs on permanent deployment every year.No one's laughing now! In a few years time that will be double.The PN is also getting a huge boost from the PRC.New FFGs,DDGs,8 Yuan AIP subs plus another 8 on the anvil,some kind of second strike UW system either using large conv. AIP boats or perhaps even an SSBN. All this while we CUT the naval budget while China's navy gets top priority over its other two forces and a huge increase every year!

It is an historic fact that the most powerful empires existed because they ruled the seas.The powerful navies of the ancient world of Rome,Greece,Egypt, then the Venetians, Portugese,Spanish,Dutch,British, spearheaded and supported
their colonial ambitions .Napoleon said that he lost because of the RN throtling France at sea. IN both WW1 and WW2 the Allied fleets defeated Germany and Japan. The Americans rule the oceans today, but the Chinese are building a fleet to challenge the USN in the Asia-Pacific region. Right now we have superior forces vs the PLAN in the IOR,even if clubbed with the PN's assets. But unless there is a similar massive investment in the IN,plugging the alarming gaps in mine warfare,ASW helos, subs, and supersonic maritime strike aircraft, the waters of the IOR will taste very bitter for India.Our Delhi Durbar's " landlubber" mentality has to change. The best counter strategy for us right now to make the Chins withdraw is to shadow every warship,MV,bumboat,whatever in the IOR,especially its tankers heading back home to the Middle Kingdom with our combined naval and air assets.If the balloon goes up they must all meet Mr.Davy Jones in his locker.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VinodTK » 13 Jun 2020 06:30



Gravitas: Ladakh border dispute | How well prepared is India?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 13 Jun 2020 06:35

Pretty interesting topic of who Xi has placed in the Western Theatre. India has its work cut out.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cain Marko » 13 Jun 2020 06:51

ldev wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:You are mistaken. Shaurya has enough range to hit around 2500km with smaller warheads of 500kg. Please see Arun S's analysis on this.

For lesser ranges it'll have flatter trajectories making intercepts very difficult.

In terms of performance, the only problem is CEP compared to a subsonic CM or brahmos. But then if it's down to targeting population centers as you suggested, that hardly matters.


Firstly beyond the public displays about 8-10 years ago there has been no further news on on it. Second, a two stage IRBM is inherently more costly to produce than either a single stage SRBM or a long range cruise missile. Shaurya is a two stage cannesterized missile I believe. Because if cost was not a consideration India should just produce a 1000-1200 Agni 3s and arm them with conventional warheads. Any missile that is tasked with taking on China's SRBM force has to be cheap enough to be produced in the hundreds if not a thousand at least.

I already acknowledged that cost can be an issue but if cities are burning, that's the last thing that matters. Also a cost comparison has to take into account the fact that the damage caused by Shaurya would be of a magnitude far greater than a CM. It is also that much more difficult to intercept. The Agni comparison is apples to oranges because the shaurya is a quasi cruise bm for theater level ops unlike the Agni which is for strategic deterrence.

It is far more appropriate to use to use shaurya as a response to Chinese srbms than say, a tlam.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 13 Jun 2020 07:47

NRao wrote:Pretty interesting topic of who Xi has placed in the Western Theatre. India has its work cut out.


This was good. 20 mins longer than it had to be, but good.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 13 Jun 2020 08:43

^^^^^

When one repeats the same thing in triplicate .................................

_______________________________________________________________________________

Meanwhile, nothing new except (to me):

Amid Escalating Tension With China, Australia and India Strengthen Partnership

Ahead of the virtual summit between India’s Narendra Modi and Australia’s Scott Morrison, adjunct professor of Asian Studies at the University of Adelaide Purnendra Jain wrote: “While it is unlikely that the ‘C’ word will figure in the talks between Morrison and Modi, China will no doubt loom large in both leaders’ minds.”

“Both countries are members of the so-called ‘Quad,’ a security dialogue framework comprising Japan, India, Australia and the United States,” he wrote. “After being hesitant initially, both have now committed to it. India has signalled a desire to become more involved as Modi has pushed back against China’s influence in the region.”


What did Modi say/do to signal?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby samirdiw » 13 Jun 2020 08:52

Philip wrote:China claims all of Ladakh and Ar.Pradesh to justify sending its troops anywhere across the border and obtaining concessions from us. We stupidly react dfending only the border drawn on a map in response and simply make excuses for their aggression by saying " perceptions differ"! We never claim in return all of Tibet, all of Xinjiang,whatever.Neither do we cross into parts of Tibet occupied by China.



This is really the perplexing part. What has China to lose with claiming any part of India? It must be really amusing to them too to see such a big and docile opponent. Just like any bully unless you take them head on they will keep pushing the button.
Why doesn't India just say straight forward to them that unless they drop the claims of Ladakh and AP, India will declare Tibet a free country. What do we have to lose? Lets be honest, isn't it cowardly to fear making the bully angry.



mody wrote:In case the situation escalates, I hope we have concrete set of objectives that we would want to achieve.
If the balloon does go up, I would wish the IA can capture enough territory to cut of the G-219 highway through Aksai chin. We can them negotiate to withdraw ....

Good point we must have better objectives then try to see they dont capture much land from us.

If we are too eager to negotiate that is already the battle lost. What they got to lose by saying no? We need to have the mindset to keep going till they succumb or we do then only will they be too exhausted to continue. Then negotiation becomes an option and they know to expect to lose something becuase they fear to lose more! Just capturing a few bits of land, stopping and expecting them to negotiate only means returning all the land, some more dead bodies and back to next round. For our own security if we need to keep them of India, we need to keep them of Tibet. Nehru made a mistake but there is no reason for us to not correct the mistake.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 13 Jun 2020 09:02

NRao wrote:^^^^^

When one repeats the same thing in triplicate .................................

_______________________________________________________________________________

The guy wanted some credit for doing all that mind numbing research (that we didn’t have to do), let’s cut him some slack.

Are you NN3 from the old days?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 13 Jun 2020 09:41

Subramanian Swamy
@Swamy39
The Namo government would be well advised not to use S400 in a possible battle with China. This is because S400 is made with Chinese electronics. Russia is today a junior partner of China
9:57 AM · Jun 12, 2020·TweetCaster for iOS


:shock: Any basis for fact here or is SS just shooting his mouth off?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 13 Jun 2020 10:15

somdev wrote:There you go #panchsheel

Chinese multinational civil construction firm Shanghai Tunnel Engineering Co. Ltd. (STEC) has emerged as the lowest bidder among the five bidders for the construction of 5.6 km underground section between New Ashok Nagar and Sahibabad of Delhi-Meerut RRTS corridor

https://www.urbantransportnews.com/stec ... rrts-line/

Better we get them to build infra for us than send us stuffed toys, furniture and low end consumer goods.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 13 Jun 2020 10:19

Going by the noise on Twitter, which indicate PLA is solidifying it’s hold on Indian (disputed) territory, any precursor to armed hostilities will be preceded by GOI saying that PRC has violated previous agreements & therefore previous agreements are null & void.

This would give India the cover needed to do the needful pre-emptively.

Not sure what happens next.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 13 Jun 2020 14:04

Something interesting in this video. The Chini IFV deployed in Tibet has a high angle of fire capability to act like a mortar. This will help in hitting mountain tops.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 13 Jun 2020 14:20

CCP now has something else to deal with as well...

Beijing goes into ‘wartime mode’ as virus emerges at market in Chinese capital
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/beijing-goes-into-wartime-mode-as-virus-emerges-at-market-in-chinese-capital/2020/06/13/65c5aac8-ad40-11ea-868b-93d63cd833b2_story.html

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 13 Jun 2020 14:45

amar_p wrote:CCP now has something else to deal with as well...

Beijing goes into ‘wartime mode’ as virus emerges at market in Chinese capital
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/beijing-goes-into-wartime-mode-as-virus-emerges-at-market-in-chinese-capital/2020/06/13/65c5aac8-ad40-11ea-868b-93d63cd833b2_story.html


Seriously, they are acting fast and hard on any sign of the virus re-appearance. Let's see if they put Beijing in lockdown. They started this total lockdown business. Or have they changed their tactics?

Unlikely that anyone can keep the virus at zero new infections.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 13 Jun 2020 15:48

nam wrote:Something interesting in this video. The Chini IFV deployed in Tibet has a high angle of fire capability to act like a mortar. This will help in hitting mountain tops.



Which IFV is that? For all the talk of 5x economy, the PLA fails to look TFTA in any of the puff piece videos they put out, closer to a turd world army than a NATO level TFTA-ness.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby eklavya » 13 Jun 2020 16:12

nam wrote:Something interesting in this video. The Chini IFV deployed in Tibet has a high angle of fire capability to act like a mortar. This will help in hitting mountain tops.



That tank looks quite exposed. Someone with an ATGM on a mountain top would have it for breakfast.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 13 Jun 2020 16:20

eklavya wrote:
nam wrote:Something interesting in this video. The Chini IFV deployed in Tibet has a high angle of fire capability to act like a mortar. This will help in hitting mountain tops.



That tank looks quite exposed. Someone with an ATGM on a mountain top would have it for breakfast.


Yes. A typical propaganda piece designed to make us dhoti shiver. An IFV is expected to use its fun in direct (line of sight) fire, not as a mortar.
Its vulnerable even before it gets to the LAC, at high altitude if it does not have a special grade of fuel and lubricant, if its engine stalls, if
it is stuck on a narrow mountain track, if the driver suffers from lack of oxygen etc. We have faced and overcome several of these problems in the
decade in which mechanised forces have been deployed in Ladakh and north Sikkim.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rsatchi » 13 Jun 2020 16:38

https://youtu.be/91CXPbaFI4U
Is this true???
Why don't this be used to counter Pappu and his 'Verbal Diarrhoea' on Ladakh issue

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Yagnasri » 13 Jun 2020 16:56

Perception of what? Perception with whom?

The present political leadership do not care for MSM scum. GoI is deploying forces on par or/and more than Chinese to protect our interests. It is continuing the road and other infra constructions without caring for the Chinese lose talk. So GoI doing whatever is required to be done. So where is perception problem?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 13 Jun 2020 18:15

Based on Chini videos, they like to take two things with them. IFV and artillery( MBRL in particular). All video actions indicate attack against dug in positions on hills/ hill top. So i seem then attacking places closer to where there are roads.

The most important counter from our side would be artillery. And airpower to contain PLAAF attacks against our artillery positions.

Given the barren place and distance required to cover, the PLA would have to mass closer to the action points for supplies and re-reinforcement.

We so need those 155MM guns. On the first sign of any attack, we need to throw everything we got, at those massing locations. And then have a go at the incoming re-reinforcement.

I really hope IAF is involved in day one. I fear our leaders and babus will hold back IAF, if PLA does not involve PLAAF. This should not happen.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Prasad » 13 Jun 2020 19:14

For ladakh prime air bases on Chinese side will be Hotan, Ngari and Kashgar. At the max 2+1+2 squadrons can be based there per uneducated guess by a layman. Only issue would be HY bombers from the east. Lhasa & xigatse are quite far to affect Aksai Chin by air meaningfully.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Nihat » 13 Jun 2020 19:16

Really don't think it'll cover to all that. The Chinese have shown themselves to be tactical and geo political idiots.

The harsh pounding being given out to their pet dogs on the other side and simultaneously building up all along the LAC and all this while we are fighting a global pandemic is going to serve us well on the future.

I believe that undertaking of intensified Coin ops and use of heavy weapons on the western border is also meant to send a signal to China.

Is far too late in the game for them to do any misadventure now. Best they can hope for is a month's long stand off that may dent our finances a little bit but nothing more.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby krishna_krishna » 13 Jun 2020 19:27

Just because some massa pasand dalal's from deep state want war at drop of hat does not mean GOI will give them that , please see the video from our Shiv sir about this area it clears lot of stuff :

https://youtu.be/mKkD4Xga2HY

The chini kum will be done, but will have to be done after preparations which could be months.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 13 Jun 2020 19:55

Will Chinis will go to war or not is another issue. If they do, we need to throw everything at them.

The Chinis want a short sharp war, ideally localised to contain the action and result. This allows them to utilise their kit they have. Mass artillery & Khan style shock and awe. They also would want to keep it localised to allow us to agree for a quick ceasefire. Something similar to what happened on Feb 26-27. Then do a PR run.

We should not keep it localized nor short. That will be the deterrence against any future Chini action

Our media commentary should say this constantly. We will throw the kitchen sink at them, if they don't move... The Chini ambassador sitting in Delhi should hear it..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 13 Jun 2020 20:40

A view on why Kashmir "valley" is called a valley. Open the image in another tab for a bigger version.

Image

Notice Srinagar, Muzzafarabad, the links. And ofcourse Pir Panjal.

Why Baramulla & Shopian are hotbed of terror..notice the links these place have


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