India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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williams
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 15 Jun 2020 07:22

All these road links, rail link, trade etc does not work with the Chinese or the Pakis for that matter. That is because there is no mutual respect with any Chinese dealings. The current Chinese regime has the habit of breaking agreements and international law. They don't have respect for basic human rights and they think India is an inferior power. You cannot expect anything from such a relationship. You have no choice but to fight on all fronts.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 15 Jun 2020 07:53

williams wrote:That is because there is no mutual respect with any Chinese dealings. The current Chinese regime has the habit of breaking agreements and international law. They don't have respect for basic human rights and they think India is an inferior power. You cannot expect anything from such a relationship. You have no choice but to fight on all fronts.

For a civilisation that considers itself the middle kingdom between heaven and earth (Zhōngguó), whatever you describe is to be expected. Whether a communist regime or democracy, this is how they'd deal with others. The commies, for all their imported Marx-ism and homegrown variant of Mao-ism, still hark back to their ancient glorious past and imbibe that worldview strongly.

The leopard cannot change its spots and all that.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 15 Jun 2020 08:09

m_saini wrote:The moment we try to strike a deal with chinese for Pok, GB etc what's stopping the americans from swooping in and give pakis F15s/F21 and couple hundreds AIM120D at "fighting terrorists" prices. I don't think either China or US wants us to solve our mess on the border so the moment we cozy up to one, the other will balance it out.

There is no question of giving the Chinese any Indian road to access Pakistan. Neither would the Chinese be foolish enough to take that. If the whole idea of China is to make its strategic competitor, India, wallow in the South Asian quagmire surrounded on all sides by the Chinese-bases or States under the Chinese sphere of influence, how is that purpose served by a road that goes through India to Gwadar with GB/PoK in Indian hands and threatening Wakhan Corridor & Xinjiang? Besides, Pakistan is already an Autonomous Region of China and that Gordian Knot serves China very well indeed. Why should they inflict a self wound by allowing us to cut that knot?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2020 08:36

China is learning the limitations of its will to power

June 13, 2020

...........

The Peoples Liberation Army (PLA), occupied a sliver of Indian land between fingers 4 to 8, and a few other places as decoys. If they could have kept this land it would push India away from its own borders. But now, it is militarily threatened by the Indians from higher ground, in this terrain of mountain spurs and valleys.

India found a new patrolling route to finger 8 and beyond from its own positions at finger 4 and quickly fortified it. This outflanks the Chinese encamped below, and exposes them to a clear line of Indian fire. India has also effected several intrusions of its own into Chinese territory.

...........

DBO and Ladakh, a Union Territory now, is also well poised to attend to Chinese occupied Akshai Chin and the strategic Siachen glacier.

India is also upgrading a road into an airstrip in South Kashmir simultaneously. The preparations for any future operations in PoK and Gilgit-Baltistan are clearly underway.

............

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 15 Jun 2020 08:43

m_saini wrote:Tbh China's economic rise is phenomenal and it does raise the question whether democracy is the best solution for lifting a state out of poverty or is it dictatorial regimes like China. No doubt that democracy is better for wealth creation and overall wellbeing of the public but i feel that it's more suited for a well-educated and well-fed population that can make responsible decisions like electing head of states.

For poor states where populations are much more susceptible to foreign interference, a dictatorial regime, if "governed" by able people, is a much better and much faster way to become prosperous. The problem is the inevitable transition to a democracy.

It's pretty much a given that chinese will fight a war rather sooner than later. Now if they win, then all iz well. But if they lose, it'll be magnitudes more bloody than a democracy when people come for CCP. And no one wins forever.


There's little doubt that Cheen would be exponentially wealthier if it were a democracy. Save for fellow Commie dictatorship North Korea, it is the poorest state in East Asia.

The last thing we would want as an aspiring power ourselves is a democratic cheen with the per capita income of Taiwan or HK and is supported by the West as a democracy just like Japan and SoKo. Why do people think Cheen will balkanize as a democracy? It doesn't happen to us as a democracy and it don't happen to Spain, Canada or the US for that matter. The worse is maybe a federation of Sinic states.

The absolute worst for India would an EU in East Asia led by China or even Japan that overshadows everything else on the continent. Or would we be happy just because they are democracies?

I rather Cheen stays communist for as long as possible. At least until we've passed it economically.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 15 Jun 2020 08:46

SSridhar wrote: There is no question of giving the Chinese any Indian road to access Pakistan. Neither would the Chinese be foolish enough to take that. If the whole idea of China is to make its strategic competitor, India, wallow in the South Asian quagmire surrounded on all sides by the Chinese-bases or States under the Chinese sphere of influence, how is that purpose served by a road that goes through India to Gwadar with GB/PoK in Indian hands and threatening Wakhan Corridor & Xinjiang? Besides, Pakistan is already an Autonomous Region of China and that Gordian Knot serves China very well indeed. Why should they inflict a self wound by allowing us to cut that knot?


I think the road access wouldn't be to Pakistan per se but to an Indian port. The idea that was proposed was, if I'm not wrong, that we let them secure their oil supplies by giving them an Indian port through an indian route and in return they dump their investments in pakiland and let us/won't interfere when we take back POK/GB etc.
But yeah I agree, Chinese would have to be absolutely insane to accept that. And even by some miracle they did, the US would cancel it out. So no point of even thinking about striking a deal with them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 15 Jun 2020 08:46

NRao wrote:China is learning the limitations of its will to power

June 13, 2020

...........

The Peoples Liberation Army (PLA), occupied a sliver of Indian land between fingers 4 to 8, and a few other places as decoys. If they could have kept this land it would push India away from its own borders. But now, it is militarily threatened by the Indians from higher ground, in this terrain of mountain spurs and valleys.

India found a new patrolling route to finger 8 and beyond from its own positions at finger 4 and quickly fortified it. This outflanks the Chinese encamped below, and exposes them to a clear line of Indian fire. India has also effected several intrusions of its own into Chinese territory.

...........

DBO and Ladakh, a Union Territory now, is also well poised to attend to Chinese occupied Akshai Chin and the strategic Siachen glacier.

India is also upgrading a road into an airstrip in South Kashmir simultaneously. The preparations for any future operations in PoK and Gilgit-Baltistan are clearly underway.

............

It’s hard to know what’s going on for real. It would be nice if someone with credibility like Nitin Gokhale can confirm this good news.

With stuff about the US recognizing Tibet should be an independent country, the article could very well be some jingo’s wet dream.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 15 Jun 2020 08:58

chola wrote:There's little doubt that Cheen would be exponentially wealthier if it were a democracy. Save for fellow Commie dictatorship North Korea, it is the poorest state in East Asia.

The last thing we would want as an aspiring power ourselves is a democratic cheen with the per capita income of Taiwan or HK and is supported by the West as a democracy just like Japan and SoKo. Why do people think Cheen will balkanize as a democracy? It doesn't happen to us as a democracy and it don't happen to Spain, Canada or the US for that matter. The worse is maybe a federation of Sinic states.

The absolute worst for India would an EU in East Asia led by China or even Japan that overshadows everything else on the continent. Or would we be happy just because they are democracies?

I rather Cheen stays communist for as long as possible. At least until we've passed it economically.


The Chinese would not be exponentially wealthier if they were a democracy. The only reason why they are at their current level is because they could force their people to work in inhumane conditions and inhumane hours and without interference from countless NGOs and environmental groups that come packaged with democracies. Their entire growth was possible because there is no political opposition and because americans wanted cheap goods made with child labor.

How much does the West support a democratic India? Same way they aren't going to support a democratic cheen either, not unless they have their military bases in shanghai and beijing just like they do in korea and okinawa. And in that case, can cheen really ever be a danger to bharat without west's consent?

An EU in east Asia would never happen either. How would CCP forget the rape of Nanjing without losing their domestic support or how brotherly would south and north korea be? The europeans could band together because germans/italians were decimated after ww2 and every single country there relied on the Americans to stay alive.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2020 09:03

India should revise ‘One China' policy, exploit China's fault lines, say experts

.......

The experts at the webinar were Arvind Gupta, former deputy national security adviser of India and now director of Vivekananda International Foundation; Jayadeva Ranade, former additional secretary in the Cabinet Secretariat and present day President of Centre for China Analysis and Strategy; Seshadri Chari, secretary-general of Forum for Integrated National Security; Nitin A. Gokhale, editor of StratNewsGlobal and BharatShakti; and Abhijit Iyer-Mitra, senior fellow at Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies. Editor of Defence.Capital N C Bipindra moderated the session.

.......

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 15 Jun 2020 09:12

m_saini wrote:I think the road access wouldn't be to Pakistan per se but to an Indian port. The idea that was proposed was, if I'm not wrong, that we let them secure their oil supplies by giving them an Indian port through an indian route and in return they dump their investments in pakiland and let us/won't interfere when we take back POK/GB etc.

Yes, I do understand that and that was my point too. The whole idea of CPEC was to demonstrate, with a pliant Pakistan, the successful concept of BRI to other nations and get them on board, in the process acquire Gwadar for a naval base, aid in the process of economic development of Xinjiang and secure some amount of o&g supplies from West Asia avoiding chokepoints.

None of them would be served at all by the Indian access point. Moreover, the Chinese would be committing a harakiri wasting their six decades of wooing Pakistan. That was what I was trying to say.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 15 Jun 2020 09:14

m_saini wrote:
SSridhar wrote: There is no question of giving the Chinese any Indian road to access Pakistan. Neither would the Chinese be foolish enough to take that. If the whole idea of China is to make its strategic competitor, India, wallow in the South Asian quagmire surrounded on all sides by the Chinese-bases or States under the Chinese sphere of influence, how is that purpose served by a road that goes through India to Gwadar with GB/PoK in Indian hands and threatening Wakhan Corridor & Xinjiang? Besides, Pakistan is already an Autonomous Region of China and that Gordian Knot serves China very well indeed. Why should they inflict a self wound by allowing us to cut that knot?


I think the road access wouldn't be to Pakistan per se but to an Indian port. The idea that was proposed was, if I'm not wrong, that we let them secure their oil supplies by giving them an Indian port through an indian route and in return they dump their investments in pakiland and let us/won't interfere when we take back POK/GB etc.
But yeah I agree, Chinese would have to be absolutely insane to accept that. And even by some miracle they did, the US would cancel it out. So no point of even thinking about striking a deal with them.



yes ...to a indian port bypassing pakis...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 15 Jun 2020 10:00

SSridhar wrote:Yes, I do understand that and that was my point too. The whole idea of CPEC was to demonstrate, with a pliant Pakistan, the successful concept of BRI to other nations and get them on board, in the process acquire Gwadar for a naval base, aid in the process of economic development of Xinjiang and secure some amount of o&g supplies from West Asia avoiding chokepoints.

None of them would be served at all by the Indian access point. Moreover, the Chinese would be committing a harakiri wasting their six decades of wooing Pakistan. That was what I was trying to say.


Apologies i misunderstood. It begs the question though that had India agreed to give chinese an access route on our western coast, would the chinese still have invested in pakiland? considering that other countries would be much more interested had a democratic stable country like India said yes to such investments.

But then again, we'd still never have given them control over a port like the pakis and sri lankans did so I answer my own question.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 15 Jun 2020 10:21

m_saini wrote:
chola wrote:There's little doubt that Cheen would be exponentially wealthier if it were a democracy. Save for fellow Commie dictatorship North Korea, it is the poorest state in East Asia.

The last thing we would want as an aspiring power ourselves is a democratic cheen with the per capita income of Taiwan or HK and is supported by the West as a democracy just like Japan and SoKo. Why do people think Cheen will balkanize as a democracy? It doesn't happen to us as a democracy and it don't happen to Spain, Canada or the US for that matter. The worse is maybe a federation of Sinic states.

The absolute worst for India would an EU in East Asia led by China or even Japan that overshadows everything else on the continent. Or would we be happy just because they are democracies?

I rather Cheen stays communist for as long as possible. At least until we've passed it economically.


The Chinese would not be exponentially wealthier if they were a democracy. The only reason why they are at their current level is because they could force their people to work in inhumane conditions and inhumane hours and without interference from countless NGOs and environmental groups that come packaged with democracies. Their entire growth was possible because there is no political opposition and because americans wanted cheap goods made with child labor.



No, that is not the way an economy works. Slave labor destroys the job market and you would have people rioting in Cheen instead of being the biggest buyers on the market for stuff like cars, refrigerators, cell phones, online gaming and air conditioners that depend on discretionary income. If forcing people to work creates wealth then they would have stuck with Mao.

Again, freedom creates wealth not slave labor. All you have to do is just look at the developed world.

How much does the West support a democratic India? Same way they aren't going to support a democratic cheen either, not unless they have their military bases in shanghai and beijing just like they do in korea and okinawa. And in that case, can cheen really ever be a danger to bharat without west's consent?


The same way they supported Japan and Korea and Taiwan and Hong Kong and Singapore. There is a soft spot among goras for East Asians (especially their women.) They are a pale race, we are brown. See the difference between our access to the US economy compared to Japan, Taiwan and Korea. Even compared to commie Cheen. If Cheen were democratic and liked baseball and the NBA then we'll have Chimerica all over again. Chimerica was a push for dual pole. America leading of course but Cheen esconced in second as honorary whites like the Japs. Communism onlee puts a wrench into this.

An EU in east Asia would never happen either. How would CCP forget the rape of Nanjing without losing their domestic support or how brotherly would south and north korea be? The europeans could band together because germans/italians were decimated after ww2 and every single country there relied on the Americans to stay alive.


A democratic Cheen would not have the CCP. Taiwan and Hong Kong love Japan fine. Check out the popular culture and travel numbers in the Far East. They are blended even now. Without communism in their biggest state things will come together. Those people not only look alike but they think alike with the same work ethic and the same (often crappy) tastes. From what I heard, Japanese p0rn is far bigger than the Amreeki version by a wide mile in Cheen. That is best indicator of cultural affinity according to more than few foreign market analysts I spoke too over martini. lol
Last edited by chola on 15 Jun 2020 10:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RajaRudra » 15 Jun 2020 10:29

Prithvi Raj Chauhan is all-powerful and won the wars but chose to let the enemy go. That is not correct and we got punished for that insane humbleness.

Fast forward to Today, We letting the Pakistan survive each passing day, is as big mistake as that of Prithvi Raj Chauhan. We may look like barbarians, but we should do the dismantling of pakistan in one way or the other by one way or the other. Pakistan(if its of the same economic / military strength) would have already done that. There should not be a reason for pakistan(as a mind set) exist, that can think of dominating us through victim card or vote bank politics inside India also.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 15 Jun 2020 10:39

m_saini wrote:It begs the question though that had India agreed to give chinese an access route on our western coast, would the chinese still have invested in pakiland? considering that other countries would be much more interested had a democratic stable country like India said yes to such investments.

But then again, we'd still never have given them control over a port like the pakis and sri lankans did so I answer my own question.

In 1963, when the Chinese invested in Pakistan (and vice-versa too), it wasn't for an access point to the IOR or the Gulf. It was for strategic reasons with respect to India and Sinkiang. Then, the Americans wanted to destroy USSR and enlisted the Chinese through the Pakistanis. The China-Pakistan relationship got cemented. The rest is history.

The point is India is the *lone* long-term strategic competitor to China and China recognized that a long time back. They would therefore do everything from that perspective. Being a tributary-loving Empire, China would be more interested in smaller (and therefore easily amenable & controllable) nations on its periphery to achieve its long term goal.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 15 Jun 2020 10:51

chola wrote:No, that is not the way an economy works. Slave labor destroys the job market and you would have people rioting in Cheen instead of being the biggest buyers on the market for stuff like cars, refrigerators, cell phones, online gaming and air conditioners that depend on discretionary income. If forcing people to work creates wealth then they would have stuck with Mao.

Again, freedom creates wealth not slave labor. All you have to do is just look at the developed world.

They are the biggest buyers of all that stuff only after slave labour gave them enough money to do so. And cheeni people know they can't riot or else tanks would roll again in tiananmen square. That inability of rioting is exactly why dictatorship regimes, if goverened well, are the fastest, albeit instable, way to prosperity.
chola wrote:he same way they supported Japan and Korea and Taiwan and Hong Kong and Singapore. There is a soft spot among goras for East Asians (especially their women.) They are a pale race, we are brown. See the difference between our access to the US economy compared to Japan, Taiwan and Korea. Even compared to commie Cheen. If Cheen were democratic and liked baseball and the NBA then we'll have Chimerica all over again. Chimerica was a push for dual pole. America leading of course but Cheen esconced in second as honorary whites like the Japs. Communism onlee puts a wrench into this.

Goras don't have soft spots for anyone, they only have guilt for Japan and fetish for their women because anime have taught them that east-asian women are submissive and ofcourse have pale skin. Japan, Taiwan and Korea have that kind of access because they are literal colonies of America which are entirely dependent on them. This is what goras did to the soft spot japanese when they got too close to the sun. Chimerica as far as I can see wasn't a push, it just described the couple between american and chinese economies. They have "Nichibei" too for Japan-US couple. Doesn't mean they want japan to be the second pole.


chola wrote:A democratic Cheen would not have the CCP. Taiwan and Hong Kong love Japan fine. Check out the popular culture and travel numbers in the Far East. They are blended even now. Without communism in their biggest state things will come together. Those people not only look alike but they think alike with the same work ethic and the same (often crappy) tastes.

Without CCP, cheenis would not have been so economically developed today so there would be no call for a EU like entity either. I agree that they are pretty blended and also that they look alike and have similar tastes but work ethic varies by a lot. There is a vast difference between how the japanese approach things versus how the chinis do.

chola wrote:From what I heard, Japanese p0rn is far bigger than the Amreeki version by a wide mile in Cheen. That is best indicator of cultural affinity according to more than few foreign market analysts I spoke too over martini. lol


That is actually a very interesting point. Wasn't there some survey where they found that chinis love japanese stuff, pakis love animal/homo and indians were into mallus :mrgreen:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 15 Jun 2020 11:04

SSridhar wrote:In 1963, when the Chinese invested in Pakistan (and vice-versa too), it wasn't for an access point to the IOR or the Gulf. It was for strategic reasons with respect to India and Sinkiang. Then, the Americans wanted to destroy USSR and enlisted the Chinese through the Pakistanis. The China-Pakistan relationship got cemented. The rest is history.

The point is India is the *lone* long-term strategic competitor to China and China recognized that a long time back. They would therefore do everything from that perspective. Being a tributary-loving Empire, China would be more interested in smaller (and therefore easily amenable & controllable) nations on its periphery to achieve its long term goal.


That explains a lot yeah. I stand corrected.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 15 Jun 2020 13:50

China does not need that road for CPEC, it's more symbolic, maybe even strategic but it does not make economic sense - a road link that is 1000's of miles long, single lane for most of it, passing through some of of the most inhospitable places on earth, with blizzards, rock slides, avalanches etc + constant insurgent attacks - you are not really going to be able to move much through in the larger scheme of things. Almost all of its trade with Pak will be conducted via the sea route anyways.


A road is much more than the economics if it. It is access, presence, sets precedent, locus standii for power projection, an asset you get the right to defend, a beach head to many other things...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 15 Jun 2020 14:20

I've seen this strange argument before and it makes no sense whatsoever. Are US, UK, France, etc. not democracies? Democracy and freedom enhance wealth creation. Communism and lack of freedom depress it.


Lets not forget that Western democracies were built on economies of slavery and colonialism. But that very democratic thought and political system has led to the dismantling of colonial empires and led to the creation of "the third world". Indian democracy stands in contrast.

Without underlying historical and cultural unity, a system of self determination will not be stable. If you look at China, it is in reality a patchwork of ethnicities held together by a communist iron fist. It can order and mobilise these fundamentally disparate peoples to whatever its agenda might be. People's will and well being is irrelevant there. When the iron fist weakens, the fingers will separate from the hand.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 15 Jun 2020 15:26

Opening up a rail/ road link to Burma,linking it to China is yet another access route for the red soldier ants of the PRC to use to threaten us and finally invade us. The Tibetan highway is a perfect example.Thf Buddhist trail gets on v.well with flights to Bodh Gaya from various countries, cheap affordable tkts. Moreover,such direct links will see a flood of Chin goods smuggled in .The porous Nepal border is just one example.

A sea change in attitude towards Chin goods is taking place.Surveys showed an overwhelming % of Indians fed up with China ,founc untrustworghy and are spurning its products. A fatwa against Chin goods is gathering apace,watch this space.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 15 Jun 2020 16:17

Cheap Chinese products have contributed greatly to excessive "use and throw" consumption by consumers the world over. In today's stressful, social media driven, credit driven economies, markets are flooded with trinkets, baubles, gadgets, toys, tools, apparel, footwear, what have you, and many many people buy stuff (self included) that we don't really need, because they are affordable and satisfy compulsive shopping habits. This is not limited to developed economies though they still make up for a large share of this consumption.

These cheap goods consume resources, unethical labour, and pollute during their manufacture, transport, consumption and when discarded. If Indians or any other peoples are avoiding buying such stuff, they will be doing a lot of good to themselves, their economies and the planet. I suspect that alone will impact Chinese economy significantly, without going as far as a boycott, which IMHO is excessive and mostly unnecessary for many categories of non-strategic products.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sanjayc » 15 Jun 2020 16:25

m_saini wrote:Tbh China's economic rise is phenomenal and it does raise the question whether democracy is the best solution for lifting a state out of poverty or is it dictatorial regimes like China. No doubt that democracy is better for wealth creation and overall wellbeing of the public but i feel that it's more suited for a well-educated and well-fed population that can make responsible decisions like electing head of states.


Wealth creation depends on economic freedom given to people, not political freedom. Singapore and Dubai are rich despite not being democracies. India is poor despite being a democracy. The reason is that while the former give full economic freedom to people to pursue their business with minimum interference of the state, India had license permit raj which impoverished people - India's political freedoms were meaningless for wealth creation. Hence people in Singapore / Hong Kong mock: "India has rights, we have rice."

India remained the world's richest country for 2,000 years, accounting for 22.5 percent of the world's GDP, despite being ruled by kings. There was no democracy that time. Economic freedoms are more important for people than political freedom. People too know this intuitively. How many Singaporeans would like to migrate to India because it has political freedoms even it it is poor? Offer the same option to Indians to migrate to Singapore or Dubai despite them being a dictatorship, there will be a stampede. Poor democracies get no respect. Rich dictatorships do (provided they are not unreasonably oppressive of people).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 15 Jun 2020 16:45

Guys, border thread :)

Good discussion, but please move it to the neutering and defanging China thread, it's more relevant there. Thanks!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 15 Jun 2020 16:47

In the meantime: https://swarajyamag.com/insta/india-loo ... y-year-end

Looks like some work is left on D-S-DBO road. I was under the impression that it was complete.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 15 Jun 2020 17:05

arshyam wrote:In the meantime: https://swarajyamag.com/insta/india-loo ... y-year-end

Looks like some work is left on D-S-DBO road. I was under the impression that it was complete.

This makes sense. This year is China’s last chance to stop this road, which is why they did this unprecedented mobilization to put unprecedented pressure on India.

This also explains GOI’s silence, they want to finish the road & don’t want to jeaprodize it by starting a shooting war - in-fact that might play into Chinese hands.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 15 Jun 2020 20:09

khan wrote:This makes sense. This year is China’s last chance to stop this road....

Absolutely - The Great Middle Kingdom is well aware of that and they have amassed some armour south of DBO in the Depsang Plains.
Connect the dots.... and one can discern their primary objective - its now (this campaign season) or never for them- slicing through south of DBO and claiming the area as their own for possibly a parallel road to G219.
The rest of the stuff at Fingers and other places are just diversions.
Last edited by Hari Nair on 15 Jun 2020 20:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Nihat » 15 Jun 2020 20:19

As the article states, the construction of the road will reduce travel time between leh and dbo to 6 hours. Any clue as to what was the travel time say 2-3 years ago.

Also, this road should help us in moving forces between western and Eastern fronts, which may be critical of we need to quickly mobilize acclimatized troops.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 15 Jun 2020 20:23

Nihat wrote:As the article states, the construction of the road will reduce travel time between leh and dbo to 6 hours. Any clue as to what was the travel time say 2-3 years ago.


Travel time was in days back then...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 15 Jun 2020 20:33

If the LAC alignment is really like what was shown in RV's/India Today i.e. the Chinese have a line of sight to the road from the top of the ridge (LAC), this would be quite vulnerable. I hope we build some bunkers at the top to prevent the PLA from coming any closer, do a reverse salami slice, since this is once place where we may have better connectivity than the PLA, since they have not completed building the full length of the road as per the last sat images (or am I mistaken?).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 15 Jun 2020 20:46

It is not just the DBO road. It is about the capability that we can bear on Tibet once all our roads are done AND our local MIC starts to roll out weapon systems in the next 3-4 years in large numbers. LCH, 155MM artillery, fighters, BVRs, local A2G weapons etc.

The Chinis know it very well, becox with their good roads, they can get away with minimum deployment across 3400 km frontier.

In few years they have to deal with an adversary who will have 12-15 mountains divisions, hundreds of attack choppers, large airforce, large number of 155MM guns.. all stationed on the rear on the middle kingdom in a god forsaken roof of the world, 3000KM away from the Hanland.

The PLA who has been dreaming of dominating the Pacific, then the Americas, will have to then freeze itself in Tibet against a large difficult to defeat adversary. While PLAN takes away all the glory...and the budget.

The PLA want leverage on our road build or troop deployment on LAC to prevent the future trouble they know is coming.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VinodTK » 15 Jun 2020 20:57


India Begins Fortifying Ladakh | NewsX

A train carrying 1,600 workers from Jharkhand to work on the Ladakh border projects have reached Udhampur. They are on their way in a huge convoy to Ladakh where they will be deployed along the LAC in multiple locations for the infrastructure work. This comes a week after the Indo-China talks over border disputes.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vsunder » 15 Jun 2020 21:02

Hari Nair wrote:
Nihat wrote:As the article states, the construction of the road will reduce travel time between leh and dbo to 6 hours. Any clue as to what was the travel time say 2-3 years ago.


Travel time was in days back then...


In 1962 a lot of supplies was moved by mule. The Army had a full-fledged mule corps part of it based in Meerut. I was old enough to remember the IAF deployment in Congo and read the newspapers and then Goa( which we would pass on trips by ship of the Scindia steam navigation company to Mangalore from Bombay). Portuguese customs would board the ship to check and then came 1962 which I recall very well.

Before Chinese checkers the US supplied India with the Flying Boxcar the C-119 Fairchild Flying packet and this was a workhorse for the IAF and made landings at DBO. I remember the deep rumble of the engines of the packet while swotting over my desk at school or home in Kanpur. The aircraft had a characteristic twin tailed boom like the B24 Liberator of which the IAF had a quite a few rehabilitated from its graveyard at Mirpur in Kanpur Cantt. One could go and play in those derelict planes in those days. No 1 BRD Chakeri was an overhaul center and so the planes would come there. CKS Raje was a skilled pilot of those Packets. Johnson-Berry set up the early helicopter units of the IAF and I have met him on many occasions. He was a young officer those days. All HU units owe it to those pioneers. I am not sure helicopters were employed in 1962. The early helicopters also visited No 1 BRD when I have seen them in 1961 for sure. The station commander Kanpur was Group Captain Kapadia(technical branch) and his wife taught me art. The joke was I could not draw in school and since I was the youngest in her class, she gave me a 50 pass ( and claimed my assignment was to draw a ball in the final exam, mind you this is KG) and allowed me through her husband, carte blanche to see the flight line and overhaul facilities in Chakeri.

When YB Chavan took over there was some panga with VM Harjinder Singh a legend in maintenance command in IAF since WW2. Chavan moved No 1 BRD to Nagpur and Kanpur became HAL and No 4 BRD.

Regarding AVM Harjinder Singh: He started his career as a Hawai Sepoy but was known as Flight by all officers. He seems to have had some panga with the "Russian" coterie in the IAF and GoI. He built two aircraft Kanpur-1 and Kanpur -II. Kanpur-1 was to be a basic trainer to be given to flying clubs in India. But HAL Pushpak won over. Kanpur II was beaten by the Krishak of HAL and became a crop dusting and air observation aircraft. Both Kanpur 1 and Kanpur II are in the hangars of IIT Kanpur, at least they were in 1975 when I was there and not sold for scrap. Harjinder Singh did not like and did not want the Mig-21 and wanted the Lightning. About the Mig 21 deal, Krishna Menon, HF-24 I have other stories.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 15 Jun 2020 21:31

Oh, once the roads are done on our side, our 15 divisions can reach the LAC faster than their 15 divisions!

And our 15 divisions can stay nearer to the LAC because of shorter communication line.

Our people in DBO will back to civilization in 6 hrs on the road. PLA chaps driving 6 hours from LAC will still next some unknown stream with no humans for 100s of miles.

This is the crux of the issues for PLA.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 15 Jun 2020 21:49

nam wrote:Oh, once the roads are done on our side, our 15 divisions can reach the LAC faster than their 15 divisions!

And our 15 divisions can stay nearer to the LAC because of shorter communication line.

Our people in DBO will back to civilization in 6 hrs on the road. PLA chaps driving 6 hours from LAC will still next some unknown stream with no humans for 100s of miles.

This is the crux of the issues for PLA.

You forgot to mention that their 15 divisions will be supplied by miles long convoys on one 2000 km highway, full of bridges & hairpin turns - running through some of the most inhospitable terrain on earth where you can’t even breathe without being acclimatized.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 15 Jun 2020 21:57


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 15 Jun 2020 22:55

vsunder wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:
Travel time was in days back then...


In 1962 a lot of supplies was moved by mule. The Army had a full-fledged mule corps part of it based in Meerut. I was old enough to remember the IAF <snip>


VSunder ji, Fascinating post, please continue in the Airforce thread. Would love to read about:

About the Mig 21 deal, Krishna Menon, HF-24 I have other stories.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 15 Jun 2020 23:03

A historical perspective of the area. Quite fascinating.
Amid India-China standoff, meet the explorers who mapped Galwan’s lonely heights

Written by Nirupama Subramanian | Updated: June 14, 2020 9:27:30 am
Across the bleak mountains and the inhospitable heights of Ladakh, where Indian and Chinese troops are now locked in a standoff, it is difficult to believe that a 500-year-old trade on the old Silk Route between Leh and Yarkand in China’s Xinjiang, was thriving as recently as the late 1940s. From Leh, traders from Punjab and Kashmir set off in caravans to Yarkand with horses laden with tea, saffron, spices, shawls, and indigo, while from the other side came traders with precious stones, carpets, brocade and silk.

From the 19th century onwards, as the Great Game unfolded between Britain and Russia for influence in Afghanistan, central Asia and neighbouring regions, several British and European travellers began to undertake expeditions into the ‘heart of Asia’. They mapped the region, learnt the languages of the locals, studied their cultures, sketched the landscapes and the flora and fauna, even as they sussed out its potential for diplomatic and commercial benefits.

The last of these explorers, and perhaps most curious of them all, was Nicholas Roerich, the famous Russian painter who was accompanied by his wife Helena and their Tibetologist son George. The Roerichs had moved to America before the Russian Revolution. The mission was apparently financed by the Roerich Museum in New York. The final destination was Tibet.

Mystery and intrigue surrounded the mission from the start. Travellers or spies? Soviet spies, or Americans? Or just crazies, in search of the mythical Shambala? The expeditioners established a base in Darjeeling, and first made forays into Sikkim. Roerich senior made an impression from the start in his monkish-Buddhist robes and Chinese cap. Later the party took a train from Howrah to Rawalpindi, and from there across Murree to Srinagar by road. A halt of three months in Srinagar went by in preparations for the journey ahead through Ladakh to Xinjiang, and through mainland China into Tibet. The expedition lasted five years. It was keenly followed by the US, Russia, Britain, Germany, France, and in the east, Japan.

The Leh to Yarkand leg of this expedition traversed the region that is presently the cause of tensions between India and China in Ladakh. The journey is recorded by George N Roerich, in his 1931 book Trials to Inmost Asia: Five Years with the Roerich Central Asian Expedition (Yale University Press).

What leaps out through the book’s pages is the easy confluence of the East and West, of Islam and Buddhism, and to a lesser extent, Hinduism, in this hardly inhabited, tough terrain. Caravans are crossing each other all the time with different looking men and women, who speak many different languages. At one point, the Roerich expedition passes a caravan with pilgrims from Yarkand bound for Mecca via Srinagar and Bombay.

In Leh, for instance, the “two principal bazaars of the town are thronged by a multicolored crowd”. There are Turks from Turkestan with their bales of merchandise. Tibetan nomads brought pashmina to sell to Kashmiris, there is silk from China and Khotan. The returning caravans “carry loads of European-made goods: products of Manchester looms and Bradford woolen mills, British and German dyestuffs… and Indian products and spices, such as saffron, which is exported in great quantities from Kashmir to Turkestan and Tibet.”

After buying 30 horses from a Karghalil caravaneer, and 36 more from an Afghan trader (at the price of Rs 76 each for a horse), and accompanied by a small army of Ladakhi porters, the expedition set off on September 19, 1925. Their first difficult ascent was Khardung La, now a selfie spot. It takes them five days to cross Nubra valley and reach the foot of Sasser La, one of the most difficult mountain crossings in the region, even though at 17,500 ft, it is lower than the Karakoram Pass.

Roerich’s description of the glacier-covered Sasser La is true to its reputation. Carcasses lie across it. Blizzards blow. Ditched merchandise lies in a heap. Perhaps because of the difficulties of crossing it, traders left their wares, secure in the knowledge that they could collect them later.


This is where the Border Roads Organisation hopes to construct a “glaciated road” to provide an alternative link between Leh and Daulat Beg Oldie (DBO), India’s forward post at the foot of the Karakoram Pass. At present, the two are connected by the Darbuk-Shyok-Daulat Beg Oldie Road, inaugurated last year, and now in Chinese sights, after the intrusion of PLA soldiers into what was previously an uncontested part of the LAC in Galwan Valley.

Beyond Sasser La is Shyok, the river and valley, Depsang Pass and the Depsang plains. On the 11th day of their journey from Leh, the expedition crossed over Karakoram Pass, which at 18,694 feet “was very gradual and the pass itself was more like a low ridge on the surrounding high up”. Roerich does not mention Galwan Valley, or DBO, though the expedition would have crossed both points on its way to the Pass. DBO, named after a sultan of Yarkand, figures in earlier expeditions as a stopping point for caravans. It is unclear when Galwan Valley got its name. Recent articles say it is named after a Ladakhi of Kashmiri descent called Ghulam Rasool Galwan, who was part of many expeditions in the region.

Today, Google Maps will show a reimagined version of the Silk route — the Chinese Belt and Road Initiative — that has already begun to take shape in the formidable network of highways through China that meet at Kashgar in Xinjiang. Some branch off into central Asia, while one, numbered G314, heads south to link up with Pakistan’s Karakoram Highway that cuts through Gilgit-Baltistan, territory claimed by India as part of the erstwhile state of J&K. To the east is the G219 from Tibet to Kashgar, through Aksai Chin, built in the 1950s before India noticed that China had nibbled off J&K’s eastern ear. East to west, Galwan to Siachen, is 80 km max. It’s enough to set the heart racing. In other circumstances, this area could have been romantically described as the place where India meets China and Pakistan.

Post-script: The Roerichs settled down in Naggar, in Himachal Pradesh. After his father’s death, George and his mother moved to Kalimpong where they lived until 1956, before moving to the Soviet Union. The younger son, Svetoslav, married Indian actor Devika Rani. They moved to Bangalore where they lived a very public life until their deaths.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 15 Jun 2020 23:29

Nihat wrote:As the article states, the construction of the road will reduce travel time between leh and dbo to 6 hours. Any clue as to what was the travel time say 2-3 years ago.

Also, this road should help us in moving forces between western and Eastern fronts, which may be critical of we need to quickly mobilize acclimatized troops.

There is no way u can reach leh to dbo in 6 hrs ..it must be reduce by 6 hours and not to 6 hrs ... leh to dabruk itself will take atleast 10 to 12 hrs for laden military trucks .

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 15 Jun 2020 23:32

The galwan valley is still patrolled with mules ... takes 2 days of ttekking from ds dbo road to reach the patrolling points ...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 15 Jun 2020 23:57

Nihat wrote:As the article states, the construction of the road will reduce travel time between leh and dbo to 6 hours. Any clue as to what was the travel time say 2-3 years ago.

Also, this road should help us in moving forces between western and Eastern fronts, which may be critical of we need to quickly mobilize acclimatized troops.


I still have my doubts about this 6-hour claim. There are two routes to get to Murgo (which aptly means the gateway to hell). The first one is from Sasoma in the Nubra valley which is much shorter but treacherous. The other one is through the Shyok river bank. Both are prone to flooding, crazy temperatures (-50 Deg), and landslides. In the 90s from Leh to Sasoma, it will take 8 hours in a vehicle and from there you will be lucky to reach DBO in 2 days by foot. The longer route had an unpaved road from Shyok that can take you until Murgo in a day and then you can do the rest of the 20 km by foot the next day. This is when you don't have flooding, landslides, high winds, blizzards, etc. To do this you need at least 3 weeks of acclimatization and crazy fit. Kudos to IA and ITBP to maintain a base in this place. No other country has a force like this.

Building and maintaining roads here are very hard. If technology has overcome that, then I can understand why the Chinese are making such noise.


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