India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Pashupatastra · Post by **Pashupatastra** » 17 Jun 2020 13:49

SSridhar wrote:We must throw the BDCA into the dust-bin. We don't need any CBMs hereafte. If anyone remembers, it was forced down our throat by Xi when Li Keqiang came calling on his first visit. They insisted on signing it immediately. The BDCA itself was a ruse to stop our infrastructure activities on our side.

Our soldiers must be fully armed from now onwards.

Agree Sridhar Sir. Somehow government always make it a point to emphasize that they have given the forces free hand to decide on course of action as per the situation. However , i think it must be a government directive to not use arms and instead to rely on stones , clubs to avoid escalation. This has cost us dearly .

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 17 Jun 2020 13:51

V_Raman wrote:Corroborating what shyamd said - https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/1 ... ina-322836

This should have happened with few days of prior planning and not as a result of what happened day before yesterday evening.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 17 Jun 2020 13:54

asinh wrote:India today showing sat images of two hundred Chinese trucks near Galwan on the 16th.

Yes, it looks like it's roughly 2.5km on their side of the LAC. After that beachhead, Galwan becomes impassable so those trucks are not going to be able to proceed any further. Presumably we have some heavy artillery at the mouth of the Galwan in case things get out of hand. I would be more concerned about the other less defensible areas like the Depsang plains.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 17 Jun 2020 13:54

Satellite pics of chinese buildup, though in their area.

https://twitter.com/dansiddiqui/status/ ... 52/photo/1
https://twitter.com/dansiddiqui/status/ ... 52/photo/2

Corresponding location in google maps

https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+G ... 78.1701053

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 17 Jun 2020 13:56

PMO has called for an all party virtual meet on 19th.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jun 2020 13:57

So 2 days of inaction

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 17 Jun 2020 13:59

SSridhar wrote:We must throw the BDCA into the dust-bin. We don't need any CBMs hereafte. If anyone remembers, it was forced down our throat by Xi when Li Keqiang came calling on his first visit. They insisted on signing it immediately. The BDCA itself was a ruse to stop our infrastructure activities on our side.

Our soldiers must be fully armed from now onwards.

+100 Sir.

In parallel, there needs to be a series of steps the civilian administration can take. Deans@ list of recommendations was a good one. I hope he expands on it and writes an article on Swarajya or even better passes it on to the powers that be in govt with more specifics. Enemy should feel the cost on the ground in LAC and economic costs for years to come for their treachery and savagery.

Anyone who believes a local PLA commander did this is naive or has a motive. This has been orchestrated and approved by the PLA Lt.Gen goon who was handpicked recently by Xi to manage the Western front with India. Just like Puki generals who indulge in mischief to "prove" their credentials, this dumbo has initiated an action under-estimating Indian resolve.

This whole nonsense of 43 casualties and PLA CO among the dead are just nonsense to lull India into not responding. Our response has to be big, bold and public - not allowing any room for Cheen to hid casualties and we should go more than recover lost ground from April.

Only thing is for India to not retaliate immediately - take time and catch the enemy by surprise. GoI and the Army has the trust of nearly all the 1.3 billion Indians to act without any pressure at the most appropriate time and place with all the preparations and precautions. Few cretins on SM and media and traitors like RG should be ignored or asked to shut up.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 17 Jun 2020 14:01

Sonugn wrote:PMO has called for an all party virtual meet on 19th.

This does not make sense. Are we sending the message that we are giving 2 days time for discussions and after that we will discuss internally about war? Don't know if that is a good thing.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 17 Jun 2020 14:02

Yes, act at a time and place of our choosing.
However, we need not wait. 3500 km long LAC I bet has areas where we have advantage.

VikramA · Post by **VikramA** » 17 Jun 2020 14:19

details of casualty released: some thing interesting in those figures 2 KIA in '2 MED regiment' and 1 KIA in ' 81 FIELD regiment'. if i am not wrong these are arty regiments. did we have a arty fight too. if not why would arty reg troops be doing patrolling

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2020 14:29

Here we go. Rewrite history. Officially.

China claims sovereignty over Galwan Valley; refuses to comment on Chinese casualties

Beijing, Jun 17 (PTI) China on Wednesday claimed that the sovereignty of the Galwan Valley area in Ladakh "always belonged to it," a day after the armies of the two countries were engaged in a violent face-off.

........

Start of the start.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Jun 2020 14:31

yensoy wrote:
asinh wrote:India today showing sat images of two hundred Chinese trucks near Galwan on the 16th.
Yes, it looks like it's roughly 2.5km on their side of the LAC. After that beachhead, Galwan becomes impassable so those trucks are not going to be able to proceed any further. Presumably we have some heavy artillery at the mouth of the Galwan in case things get out of hand. I would be more concerned about the other less defensible areas like the Depsang plains.

200 trucks are at least a whole battalion if not a half strength brigade, and they are parked just 5-6 km from one of our main roads? Sure the PLA is vulnerable to artillery and airstrikes but thats only if we choose to use it (I'm still doubtful if our side had the stomach to escalate).

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jun 2020 14:34

NRao wrote:Here we go. Rewrite history. Officially.

China claims sovereignty over Galwan Valley; refuses to comment on Chinese casualties

Beijing, Jun 17 (PTI) China on Wednesday claimed that the sovereignty of the Galwan Valley area in Ladakh "always belonged to it," a day after the armies of the two countries were engaged in a violent face-off.

........
Start of the start.

This is what the they did in 1962, Galwan and Tawang on 20 Oct 1962 and then attack further at CHushul on 20 Nov - they are planning something similar.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Jun 2020 14:35

khan wrote:I like Shiv Aroor, but watching him brag about being the first to “break” the Galwan “story” made me sick.

He is a fatherch*d.

He published Abhinandan's bruised photos and AM Varthaman learnt about his capture before the IAF could tell him.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 17 Jun 2020 14:35

Prem Kumar wrote:[
You can believe whatever you choose to believe. If you believe Chinese *official statements*, the Coronavirus killed only 4000 people in Wuhan.

Unlike us, they are not a free society. They will kill a million of their own and not admit it. They are not answerable to their grieving mothers & widows. We are answerable to ours.

Our soldiers aren't sissies. They give as good as they get, even when outnumbered. So, its eminently believable that the Chinese suffered 43 casualties, which may include 35 dead.

They did lose an estimated million men in the Korean war, but never published casualty figures. Even the 62 war casualty figures were only released in 1994. I'm baffled as to why our media wait for the Chinese media to validate what they say.

ricky_v · Post by **ricky_v** » 17 Jun 2020 14:37

^^ffs, let the goi take a stance first. Imagining scenarios and debating inadequacy of actions taken therein does good to nobody.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2020 14:38

Need a regime change in Beijing.

The iron is hot.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 17 Jun 2020 14:42

Aarvee wrote:https://www.news18.com/news/india/pla-d ... 73347.html

Furious hand-to-hand fighting raged across the Galwan river valley for over eight hours on Monday night, as People’s Liberation Army assault teams armed with iron rods as well as batons wrapped in barbed wire hunted down and slaughtered troops of the 16 Bihar Regiment, a senior government official familiar with the debriefing of survivors at hospitals in Leh has told News18.

“Even unarmed men who fled into the hillsides were hunted down and killed,” one officer said. “The dead include men who jumped into the Galwan river in a desperate effort to escape.”

Government sources say at least another two dozen soldiers are battling life-threatening injuries, and over 110 have needed treatment. “The toll will likely go up,” a military officer with knowledge of the issue said.

Large numbers of dead bodies, Indian military officials say, were handed over by the PLA on Monday morning — possibly men dragged away in the course of hand-to-hand fighting, and then killed.
As more details come through, my blood boils.

if our unarmed and outnumbered men were trying to save themselves and fleeing to hillside, then who was inflicting heavy casualty on the chinese? Is it possible that the bulk of chinese deaths are due to the ground caving/landslide and not due to indian action.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jun 2020 14:43

Deans wrote:They did lose an estimated million men in the Korean war, but never published casualty figures. Even the 62 war casualty figures were only released in 1994. I'm baffled as to why our media wait for the Chinese media to validate what they say.

The Vietnamese hill slopes are full of tens of thousands of cemeteries of Chinese soldiers too.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2020 14:45

India UNSC seat up for vote today (Thursday). I think uncontested.

WHO in January. Should invite US back. Followed by Taiwan.

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 17 Jun 2020 14:49

@drapr007
·
24m
#BREAKING : As per reliable sources casualties of PLA are more than hundred as their helicopters are still picking d€ad bod¡es and ¡njured soldiers from the skirmish sites.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2020 14:53

Ladakh clash evokes memories of China’s brutal killing of Soviet troops in 1969

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2020 14:56

Davidrock wrote:Satellite pics of chinese buildup, though in their area.

https://twitter.com/dansiddiqui/status/ ... 52/photo/1
https://twitter.com/dansiddiqui/status/ ... 52/photo/2

Corresponding location in google maps

https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+G ... 78.1701053

That "Corresponding location" is wrong.

Inder Sharma · Post by **Inder Sharma** » 17 Jun 2020 15:02

AdityaM wrote:
Aarvee wrote:https://www.news18.com/news/india/pla-d ... 73347.html

As more details come through, my blood boils.
if our unarmed and outnumbered men were trying to save themselves and fleeing to hillside, then who was inflicting heavy casualty on the chinese? Is it possible that the bulk of chinese deaths are due to the ground caving/landslide and not due to indian action.

since when did Praveen swami regain his credibility on this forum? Have we forgotten the " it was the misunderstanding around a grandma which led to "Indian soldiers beheadings" and "It were not paki terrorists. They kerosene smugglers" saga by PS.

chola · Post by **chola** » 17 Jun 2020 15:09

NRao wrote:Need a regime change in Beijing.

The iron is hot.

The only way for that to happen is for us to roll into the LAC in force and create a situation where Xi is responsible for the loss of Chinese territory and Chinese lives. Create a revolt against him by imposing a disaster under his reign.

We're not driving to Beijing with an armor column and remove the SOB like the US did with Saddam.

We have to wage a general war on the border. Raids and ambushes won't do it.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 17 Jun 2020 15:11

sooraj wrote:@drapr007
#BREAKING : As per reliable sources casualties of PLA are more than hundred as their helicopters are still picking d€ad bod¡es and ¡njured soldiers from the skirmish sites.

Please, Baba is not news. It is psyops. If PLA still has helos flying there I will be very very worried, because they are probably bringing in people and supplies rather than taking away bodies.

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 17 Jun 2020 15:12

chola wrote:
NRao wrote:Need a regime change in Beijing.

The iron is hot.
The only way for that to happen is for us to roll into the LAC in force and create a situation where Xi is responsible for the loss of Chinese territory and Chinese lives.

We're not driving to Beijing with an armor column and remove the SOB like the US did with Saddam.

We have to wage general war on the border. Raids and ambushes won't do it.

How about bleed china with a thousand cuts in Tibet?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Jun 2020 15:16

@chola,

Prevent Xi from achieving his goal/s and he is gone. IMHO of course.

@somdev,

It says 1.6m at the bottom. One should be able to blow that picture pretty good.

I just checked, PlanetLab has 0.9m spatial resolution.

chola · Post by **chola** » 17 Jun 2020 15:18

yensoy wrote:
sooraj wrote:@drapr007
#BREAKING : As per reliable sources casualties of PLA are more than hundred as their helicopters are still picking d€ad bod¡es and ¡njured soldiers from the skirmish sites.
Please, Baba is not news. It is psyops. If PLA still has helos flying there I will be very very worried, because they are probably bringing in people and supplies rather than taking away bodies.

I can't find pictures of these helos since this thing began weeks ago. I read about helo activity but can't find any evidence. I don't even know what they have that operate at those altitudes. Z-20? Mi-17? S70 Blackhawks (from 1980s.) Their ubiqitous Z-8 and Z-9 are sea level optimized machines that probably can't operate in Tibet.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 17 Jun 2020 15:19

NRao wrote:Ladakh clash evokes memories of China’s brutal killing of Soviet troops in 1969

From wikipedia:

On 2 March 1969, a group of People's Liberation Army (PLA) troops ambushed Soviet border guards on Zhenbao Island. According to the Chinese sources, the Soviets suffered 58 dead, including a senior colonel, and 94 wounded. The Chinese losses were reported as 29 dead.[18] According to the Soviet/Russian sources, no fewer than 248 Chinese troops were killed on the island and on the frozen river,[20] while 32 Soviet border guards were killed, 14 wounded.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jun 2020 15:20

What is Major General Level talks are on- what are we talking to them about- they are clearly not listening.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 17 Jun 2020 15:22

somdev wrote:I am wondering if PlanetLabs are producing such detailed imagery, what our ISRO military satellites are/were doing?

Timepass with chai-biskoot.

somdev wrote: Is there a communication breakdown between ISRO satellite feeds and army MI/satellite imagery experts?

Yes, most absolutely. All this started when ISRO stopped paying phone bills last year.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 17 Jun 2020 15:25

shyamd wrote:
shyamd wrote:Lots of international conversations ongoing. Moscow trying to help resolve situation. Pompeo in Hawai to meet Yang Jiechi (Also special representative for Indian border Diplomacy). Chinese requested the meeting.

GOI want to send the message that India is ready for a fight. As I mentioned previously operational plans are ready.

There is dilemma.. are the PLA talks designed to stall for time? As delay sets in Indian army advantage getting eroded.

In any case, we’ll Know in next 24-48 hours if PRC want a war
Update: press reports state that Maj Gen level talks have been “suspended”.
My view is that the talks have failed as PLA did not live up to their end of the bargain.

Fear the worst. There is last minute diplomacy going on with France, Russia and US.

All eyes on Hawaii.

Stage 1: GOI shows operational readiness to fight and take back territory. (<48 hours)
Stage 2: All GOI has to do is to deliver a bloody nose to Xi and show that PRC is not invincible.

Apparently the 2 Maj Gens met on the actual site to de-escalate the issue on Monday night and talks went on until late evening yesterday.

End result was that PLA are sticking to their stand on Galwan valley i.e. it is theirs. Talks failed and are now "suspended".

Whilst Armed Forces plans are ready - there is still more mobilisation/logistics/recon etc that needs to happen.

Indian Ambassador in PRC is conducting diplomacy. Doval is in touch with his counterpart. Russia is now involved in diplomacy.

There was a planned Rus - PRC - Ind Foreign Min meet planned for 22 June. As of now, expect last ditch diplomacy to happen there.

Xi is in hot water internally and the sudden increase in PLA activity across most of their borders is seen as a way to unite internal party.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Jun 2020 15:28

Aditya_V wrote:What is Major General Level talks are on- what are we talking to them about- they are clearly not listening.

As per multiple sources yesterday some of our troops where captured by PLA, this piece of the puzzle is still not clarified - IMO this might be what they are negotiating.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jun 2020 15:31

Army has clearing come out saying No Indian Soldier in Chinese Custody- why this BS?

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 17 Jun 2020 15:34

Btw the last all party Meet on a border conflict was way back in 1999 before kargil war.

srin · Post by **srin** » 17 Jun 2020 15:35

somdev wrote:I am wondering if PlanetLabs are producing such detailed imagery, what our ISRO military satellites are/were doing? Is there a communication breakdown between ISRO satellite feeds and army MI/satellite imagery experts?

We know this bit of information exactly how ? How do we know that confirmation that ISRO has not shared feeds with military ? Is it only because they haven't shared it in public domain ?

chola · Post by **chola** » 17 Jun 2020 15:38

AshishAcharya wrote:How about bleed china with a thousand cuts in Tibet?

Like Afghanistan and Vietnam? It'll take years. You also need a native population that'll do the cutting. Judging by how they locked up and basically pacified a far more radical muzzie population through internment in Xinjiang, I don't hold out much hope for Tibetan buddhists.

Not feasible in short term. Long term, Poo Bear might die of old age before the strategy comes to fruition.

NRao wrote:@chola,

Prevent Xi from achieving his goal/s and he is gone. IMHO of course.

We don't even know what his goals are. How do we prevent them?

I don't think most chinis know. He's a goddam dictator and does what he wants without domestic opposition.

The only way to bring him down is to sit 250K jawans on chini claimed territory like Aksai Chin and take it from him. Then he might be pilloried for losing land that Mao conquered.

chola · Post by **chola** » 17 Jun 2020 15:41

AshishAcharya wrote:Btw the last all party Meet on a border conflict was way back in 1999 before kargil war.

Modi is uniting the clans for war. He doesn't need an all party for negotiation. The other shoe has to drop.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 17 Jun 2020 15:48

India-China border troops clash at Galwan Valley: Key points

PM Narendra Modi will hold all-party meet on June 19 and will address the nation on June 21
In order to discuss the situation in the India-China border areas, Prime Minister Narendra Modi has called for an all-party meeting at 5 pm on June 19. Presidents of various political parties would take part in this virtual meeting. He will also address the nation on June 21. Further details are awaited.

Here are the names of the 20 Indian Army personnel who lost their lives in the "violent face-off" with China in Galwan Valley, Ladakh.
Names of the 20 Indian Army personnel who lost their lives in the "violent face-off" with China in Galwan Valley, L… https://t.co/zHskeQXDV0
— ANI (@ANI) 1592385132000

Loss of soldiers in Galwan is deeply disturbing and painful: Defence minister
"The loss of soldiers in Galwan is deeply disturbing and painful. Our soldiers displayed exemplary courage and valour in the line of duty and sacrificed their lives in the highest traditions of the Indian Army, " said Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on Wednesday. He added, "Nation will never forget their bravery and sacrifice. My heart goes out to the families of the fallen soldiers. The nation stands shoulder to shoulder with them in this difficult hour. We are proud of the bravery and courage of India’s bravehearts."
Defence minister Rajnath Singh on Wednesday held a meeting with 3 Service Chiefs (Army, Navy & Air Force) and the Chief of Defence Staff. The defence minister also spoke to External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar on the current situation.

United Nations expresses concern over India-China border clashes
United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres has expressed concern on the reports of violent clashes between India and China on Line of Actual Control and urged both sides to exercise maximum restraint. Eri Kaneko, Associate Spokesperson of Guterres, said,"We take positive note of reports that the two countries have engaged to deescalate the situation."

British High Commission encourages dialogue between India-China
"Clearly these are concerning reports. We encourage China and India to engage in dialogue on issues relating to the border - violence is in no-one's interest," said British High Commission spokesperson.