India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 17 Jun 2020 17:26

sooraj wrote:ANI
@ANI
· 27m
Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi says urges India to severely punish those responsible for conflict, control its frontline troops: Reuters

Genius suggestion. I hope he knows that we have every intention of severely punishing those responsible for this conflict.

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 17 Jun 2020 17:28

sooraj wrote:ANI
@ANI
· 27m
Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi says urges India to severely punish those responsible for conflict, control its frontline troops: Reuters

These arrogant Chinese think they can get away with anything. Time to hunt down these 'wolf warriors'

Lohit · Post by **Lohit** » 17 Jun 2020 17:31

Interesting to look at the two FM statement briefs,

Chinese FM statement: CHINA, INDIA AGREE TO RESOLVE BORDER CLASH IN A FAIR WAY, DE-ESCALATE AS SOON AS POSSIBLE - CHINA FOREIGN MINISTRY.

Keywords:

1. Resolve border - Seems they brought up technical points on border.

2. De-escalate as soon a possible: Want this to quickly go away

Our FM statement: External Affairs Minister
@DrSJaishankar has spoken to his Chinese counterpart to find ways to reduce tensions.

What is interesting here is the LACK of keywords in a fairly terse statement.

India is not interested in discussing border

India is not in a hurry, we will dictate pace

I do feel that NaMo seemed furious probably because Intel picked up Chinese intent to start multiple border incidents to intimidate India. This would have been followed by incidents along Pak border and LOC.

A trailer of a two front war if you will.

Krita · Post by **Krita** » 17 Jun 2020 17:31

abhishekm wrote:Asutos has posted a puke-worthy article on NDTV website blaming India for provoking China and asking India not to react. This makes Global Times look like Swarajya and Shoo Claw the biggest patriot we have had since Sardar Patel.

*Warning* not to be read if you have high BP! I'm putting this here as an example of the defeatist and downright traitorous mindset that some people have.

https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/for-modi-c ... topstories

Even NDA training cannot staighten bent ones like Shukla ( sounds like hook's law).

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 17 Jun 2020 17:32

This is the crux of the matter

Relative defence spending India vs China vs Pakistan

https://ibb.co/f9Ttmnr

India’s best course of actions is to hurt the Chinese where China is most sensitive- in the pocket. Make a national plan to substitute all imports from China within 12 months. Target every single MNC leaving China, sadly VN has been having far far more success with this than India in recent weeks.

This is an incredibly tough position for India to find itself in, I don’t envy leadership- there’s no easy answers. And all this in the backdrop of a virus the Chinese unleashed

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 17 Jun 2020 17:32

When was the last time the government called for an all party meeting on national security ? I can remember Vajpayee calling one after the parliament attack and the Congi govt calling one after 26/11. Nobody wants war but if war is thrust upon India then its foolish of the chinese to underestimate India's resolve and patriotism. The chinese calculation seems to be driven by a 3 prong strategy (a).Hit a large country with powerful military with a global standing like India to show the world china is now the big bully in asia (b). Use (a) to send a message to the US and (c). Boost the fast crumbling image of the CCP supermen and superwomen in the eyes of chinese.

I don't wish for a war especially in a time like this but even if we manage to evade the war its only a matter of time before china pulls something similar. In their infinite wisdom and "strategic brilliance" i fully expect pakis to do something on the western border in the days and weeks to come.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 17 Jun 2020 17:35

All Party meeting in 2 days is also a message

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 17 Jun 2020 17:37

ANI
@ANI
· 2m
Wang Yi-S Jaishankar talks: Strong message conveyed by Indian Foreign Minister to China, “What happened in Galwan was premeditated and planned action by China which was responsible for the sequence of events.”

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 17 Jun 2020 17:45

chola wrote:
AshishAcharya wrote:How about bleed china with a thousand cuts in Tibet?
Like Afghanistan and Vietnam? It'll take years. You also need a native population that'll do the cutting. Judging by how they locked up and basically pacified a far more radical muzzie population through internment in Xinjiang, I don't hold out much hope for Tibetan buddhists.

Not feasible in short term. Long term, Poo Bear might die of old age before the strategy comes to fruition.

NRao wrote:@chola,

I don't think massed guns at the desolate tibet border is the key. The key is 1 man .

The Dalai Lama. If he calls for people to set themselves on fire in tibet, they will do it. (Also Tibetans extend beyond the TAR in China)

But I don't think he will, for a couple of reasons. And I don't think india wants him to, either.

The next change is not when Xi dies but when the Dalai lama dies and when he resurrects. Also based upon what he says about his resurrection before he dies and what games surround the recognition of the resurrection as the next Dalai lama.

There is one other practical thing that matters significantly other than face/pr/reputation

The Xinjiang tibet highway through northern Aksai chin.

When so much is made of temporary camps and visits, and a little more about permanent black tops and huts, imagine the significance of connection between the entire provinces..

abhishekm · Post by **abhishekm** » 17 Jun 2020 17:46

All party meeting is great optics. When the future of this conflict is written it will show how Modi took everyone on board, how we did not react immediately, how we gave diplomacy a chance, etc etc. The Chinese have it coming. The question is when (I'm sure GoI has already decided the where).

And expect Pakistan to open a soft second front in the coming days: greater shelling on LOC, increased infil attempts, Pak Fizzle-ya carrying out aerial maneouvres, UGs being tasked to do stone pelting, a spectacular targetted attack in the valley. Anything to throw India off balance and show brotherly love for China..."look we did our bit now can you please give us a moratorium on our 100 zillion dollar loan?"

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 17 Jun 2020 17:46

Aarvee wrote:
SidSoma wrote:
It feels like he has declared war.......Just wow
I agree, It felt like it.

In the beginning he said, "India will protect each and every inch of its land"

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 17 Jun 2020 17:49

abhishekm wrote:All party meeting is great optics. When the future of this conflict is written it will show how Modi took everyone on board, how we did not react immediately, how we gave diplomacy a chance, etc etc. The Chinese have it coming. The question is when (I'm sure GoI has already decided the where).

And expect Pakistan to open a soft second front in the coming days: greater shelling on LOC, increased infil attempts, Pak Fizzle-ya carrying out aerial maneouvres, UGs being tasked to do stone pelting, a spectacular targetted attack in the valley. Anything to throw India off balance and show brotherly love for China..."look we did our bit now can you please give us a moratorium on our 100 zillion dollar loan?"

This is where our links with Gulf and US is very important, hope the Pakis food stocks is completely destroyed by locusts and we have a very good moonsoon. And dependent for Indian supply of foodstuffs.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 17 Jun 2020 17:51

Lohit wrote:If I try and empathize with China, the problem with China is that it is also fairly hemmed in

Oopar Russi and CIS satellites

Small but powerful countries to east like Japan or SoKo

South has US bases in Philippines, Singapore and Oz.

Only to east they have potential for lebensraum and there thorn is Indian civ. If it becomes vassal, they can expand till caspain.

Why is it that China cant even think of taking panga with anybody else on its other borders but thinks (successfully) it can get away with anything when it comes to India?

It is because of our non practical and idealistic thinking and mindset. Had we not drunk to much of the ahimsa kool aid situation today would have been much different.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 17 Jun 2020 17:56

NRao wrote:
yensoy wrote: It is very much Galwan river. Measure 2.4km from the LAC, on their side, as the crow flies and you will find it.
I have. And, given you reasons why I think it is not.
Besides, you really think India would allow that many Chinese vehicles into Bharat's territory? 2.5 Kms into Bharat? In broad daylight?

You can give whatever reasons you want but the India Today picture of the mass of vehicles is from here: 34°45'08.6"N 78°14'18.2"E
34.752390, 78.238384. Please read what I said again - I said 2.4km from the LAC on their side. Galwan is not such a treacherous gorge in their area as it in ours.

The alarming part is the bridge they seem to be building slightly downstream here 34°45'12.6"N 78°13'57.3"E (34.753496, 78.232580).

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 17 Jun 2020 17:56

Four headlines from the past 8 days:
https://twitter.com/d_jaishankar/status ... 24448?s=21

China is a global menace, it won’t be today or this year but there will be a global response to it one day and it will be unlike anything we have ever seen in human history. CCP has been allowed to grow far too powerful.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 17 Jun 2020 17:57

SSridhar wrote:GB has to be taken. That will put paid to a lot of Chinese ambitions.

China's latest moves in Ladakh have to be seen from its necessity to secure GB. It is not merely protecting G219 as it was until some years ago.

Sridharji, if China has reacted to our building just a road that could in future be a fast mobilization path to target the Karakoram highway, I do not think they will sit idle to our trying to take away GB. If India tries to do that then it will be a a war that india would need to fight on two fronts-China and Pakistan. We may have the will to fight but are we equipped to do so? Our Artillery is not enough even for one front. It will take a lot of planning and equipment induction before we can go that route.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2020 17:58

something better than surgery needed for the chinese... and disruption of bijnej is what I am thinking. ban all chinese contracts

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 17 Jun 2020 18:08

Despite all the hyperventilating it appears we have the situation in control at the ground.

http://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/1273213659045482496

Mollick.R · Post by **Mollick.R** » 17 Jun 2020 18:09

While I'm sure IA/IAF/IN is doing all what needs to be done, I think have ignored giving funds & focus to Cyber Warfare domain.
Bat Eaters have advantage on that front.

With ChinaVirus19 pandemic already running in desh & BatEater's rented Wh()re from western border expected to go aggressive simultaneously, they can put some nasty dirty tricks from Cyber domain.

nam · Post by **nam** » 17 Jun 2020 18:12

Bharadwaj wrote:Despite all the hyperventilating it appears we have the situation in control at the ground.

http://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/1273213659045482496

That is the proof that the PLA attack was pre-mediated for no apparent reason. They attacked PP14 and when things escalated, pulled back fearing a direct reprisal if they had held on PP14.

I feel this is the typical Chinese behavior to bully, who believe he can get away with anything even if they have to pull back.

nam · Post by **nam** » 17 Jun 2020 18:13

Jha is reporting a PLA build up near Chusul. PLA is expecting an attack on the finger area.

Chusul build up is to counter that.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 17 Jun 2020 18:24

SaiK wrote:something better than surgery needed for the chinese... and disruption of bijnej is what I am thinking. ban all chinese contracts

If we were to cold turkey block all commercial contacts with the Chinese:
1. We would lose huge. Our retailers and commerce will lose. Our industries will lose because the Chinese produce a lot of competitively priced factory equipment (machines to make stuff). We will continue to have huge infra gaps. Our pharma will be in deep trouble. We won't have enough Covid test kits.
2. We will have no further leverage with the Chinese.

Graded closure/resistance is the way to go here. That's the only way they can feel the pain, and we can get an opportunity for our locals to step up besides some revenue which won't hurt in these circumstances.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 17 Jun 2020 18:35

yensoy wrote:
SaiK wrote:something better than surgery needed for the chinese... and disruption of bijnej is what I am thinking. ban all chinese contracts
If we were to cold turkey block all commercial contacts with the Chinese:
1. We would lose huge. Our retailers and commerce will lose. Our industries will lose because the Chinese produce a lot of competitively priced factory equipment (machines to make stuff). We will continue to have huge infra gaps. Our pharma will be in deep trouble. We won't have enough Covid test kits.
2. We will have no further leverage with the Chinese.

Graded closure/resistance is the way to go here. That's the only way they can feel the pain, and we can get an opportunity for our locals to step up besides some revenue which won't hurt in these circumstances.

I think IN should periodically harass the Chinese ships in BoB and India Ocean. Just to show who is daddy here. In addition its time to Take POK and make OBOR look like yet another Pakistani road.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2020 18:35

it may not be a trade-off always! - we can't compare one loss with another, in a war declaration.

of course, chankianess is needed.. but we can't get bogged down by covid19 [anyone vulnerable to virus is anyway outside the war zone].

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 17 Jun 2020 18:42

yensoy wrote:
SaiK wrote:something better than surgery needed for the chinese... and disruption of bijnej is what I am thinking. ban all chinese contracts
If we were to cold turkey block all commercial contacts with the Chinese:
1. We would lose huge. Our retailers and commerce will lose. Our industries will lose because the Chinese produce a lot of competitively priced factory equipment (machines to make stuff). We will continue to have huge infra gaps. Our pharma will be in deep trouble. We won't have enough Covid test kits.
Graded closure/resistance is the way to go here. That's the only way they can feel the pain, and we can get an opportunity for our locals to step up besides some revenue which won't hurt in these circumstances.

It is also very important to compile and release a list of products that we need to manufacture in India and the quantity of those items imported from china. That shall be the first step realistic baby step towards total substitution of such products. Otherwise the responsibility will solely rest upon the industry to do the guesswork.
I think we shall also have a dedicated section somewhere in BRF for this purpose.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2020 18:46

read a tweet, all IA leave cancelled! 15 bar pressure cooker only I think getting ready to cook something

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 17 Jun 2020 18:47

https://www.pgurus.com/abhijit-iyer-mit ... in-galwan/

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jun 2020 18:48

Vips wrote:Sridharji, if China has reacted to our building just a road that could in future be a fast mobilization path to target the Karakoram highway, I do not think they will sit idle to our trying to take away GB. If India tries to do that then it will be a a war that india would need to fight on two fronts-China and Pakistan. We may have the will to fight but are we equipped to do so? Our Artillery is not enough even for one front. It will take a lot of planning and equipment induction before we can go that route.

Vips, of course , yes. But, GB is part of J&K and China has no locus standi and that's why it has of late been trying to insert itself into this dispute. Diamar-Basha is a ruse to deploy large-scale PLAGF there apart from those who are already there under the guise of maintaining KKH and part of CPEC. In a few years' time, GB will come under the control of PRC under some agreement between China & Pakistan and then it would be even more difficult. We have a narrow window. Right now, China has no legal framework to intervene in an India-Pakistan fight. I know that a lot of planning is required and I hope we have gamed it and planned it. It would be better than capturing Aksai Chin, but the effect on China would be more dramatic.

Of course, taking back GB is a medium-term solution (hopefully not in the too distant future) and not directly related to the developing and fast-moving tactical situation.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Jun 2020 18:49

Aditya_V wrote:Army has clearing come out saying No Indian Soldier in Chinese Custody- why this BS?

Has it really? Sorry I may have missed it.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 17 Jun 2020 18:50

Please not Abhijit-Iyer Mitra, the guy is annoying and sounds like a chinese spokesperson ! How this guy went on from being a graduate in hotel management to journalist on defense/strategic matters is beyond me.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Jun 2020 18:53

pralay wrote:I think we shall also have a dedicated section somewhere in BRF for this purpose.

A long time back, we compiled a list of Pakistani products, especially restaurants that went under Indian names to hoodwink.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 17 Jun 2020 18:53

Krita wrote:
abhishekm wrote:Asutos has posted a puke-worthy article on NDTV website blaming India for provoking China and asking India not to react. This makes Global Times look like Swarajya and Shoo Claw the biggest patriot we have had since Sardar Patel.

*Warning* not to be read if you have high BP! I'm putting this here as an example of the defeatist and downright traitorous mindset that some people have.

https://www.ndtv.com/opinion/for-modi-c ... topstories
Even NDA training cannot staighten bent ones like Shukla ( sounds like hook's law).

Several of us have high BP, please do not inflict Shukla (or Pravin sawhney) on us. I'd rather read Globar times.

RohitH · Post by **RohitH** » 17 Jun 2020 18:55

pralay wrote: It is also very important to compile and release a list of products that we need to manufacture in India and the quantity of those items imported from china. That shall be the first step realistic baby step towards total substitution of such products. Otherwise the responsibility will solely rest upon the industry to do the guesswork.
I think we shall also have a dedicated section somewhere in BRF for this purpose.

http://www.indiatradedata.com/what-indi ... port-china

This site gives product codes, descriptions, total value ( USD ), and percentage of total import from China.
If the Indian industry has to rely on "guesswork" for such information then they better sit at home instead of running businesses.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 17 Jun 2020 18:56

Akshay Kapoor wrote:I have been crying myself hoarse on twitter since April 'Please do not let soldiers patrol without weapons. Serves no tactical or strategic purpose'. When basics of soldiering are ignored because of faulty strategic appreciation then such tragedies are bound to occur.

We still continue to misread China

Here is my assessment

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/12 ... 45442?s=20

Great stuff Akshay, this is the type of work we need. Its amazing how folks are reluctant to even think about changing the status quo, and using terminologies like jingoism or dhoti shivering to avoid the thought.

We need to do what the powerful nations in history have done. Have visionary objectives, identify the gaps, identify what needs to be done to accomplish them, prioritize them and work single-mindedly towards that. We aim for the stars we will at least be somewhere in between. The cause of the dilly dallying between the defense PSU's and armed forces are on account of our leaders and nation not having that aggressive ambition. With that what we think impossible today can become a reality tomorrow. Not having that is just pure mental laziness.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 17 Jun 2020 18:58

SidSoma wrote: I think IN should periodically harass the Chinese ships in BoB and India Ocean. Just to show who is daddy here. In addition its time to Take POK and make OBOR look like yet another Pakistani road.

Start with sinking Chinese trawlers that routinely fish in our waters - or board them on suspicion of being spy vessels (which they sometimes are).
If asked, invite Chinks for chai-biskoot and deny knowledge.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 17 Jun 2020 19:03

Mollick.R wrote: they can put some nasty dirty tricks from Cyber domain.

PM and HM need to rally up amateurs by providing incentives like tuition waivers, admission to yet to be established cyber campuses, etc. The lack of immediate background checks would hamper many critical work but somethings may still be achieved. Especially low hanging fruits like Chinese call home devices and apps being characterized and banned.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 17 Jun 2020 19:03

RohitH wrote: http://www.indiatradedata.com/what-indi ... port-china

This site gives product codes, descriptions, total value ( USD ), and percentage of total import from China.
If the Indian industry has to rely on "guesswork" for such information then they better sit at home instead of running businesses.

Unfortunately they aren't interested in listening to people who have run companies (like me) and rely on the kind of crap that these sites
produce. The real issues Indian industry faces are:
- Under-invoicing (to pay lower duties). The balance money goes from the importers offshore bank account, to China.
The solution is to have a floor price for import.
- Using Hong Kong to ship from. Solution is to club HK with China.
- Use countries with favorable trade regimes with India (e.g. Sri Lanka). Solution - act tough and stop 0 duty access if there is any case of cheating.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 17 Jun 2020 19:15

Let us think, can we with our Industrial base take on China for a sustained war for say 1 month and come out winners. Short war , no doubt we will have the edge, but long drawn. How much of our people and media which are screaming WAR, will support if one or two missiles fall on a city. No doubt we will retaliate. I am not worried about our Forces' morale, I am worried about our media, civilians. What happened during 99 hijack crisis? Will we stand behind our armed forces , no matter what the hardships?

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 17 Jun 2020 19:20

Also need to have public campaigns explaining many things in terms of economics that common person understands. For example, how the wasteful habits can lead to Chinese imports and in turn lead to trade deficits and effects on common person of having trade deficits.

Trade deficits should be moving thru the news tickers like stock market indexes.