India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Cain Marko
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Jun 2020 23:06

Manish_Sharma wrote:
YashG wrote:If prc lobs srbm missiles into indias population centres - what will we do immediately? Its good to know our options.



Here is China population density map, most population dense areas are under coverage of

1. Agony 3 (2.5 Ton Payload)
2. Agony 5 (1 Ton Payload)

Cheeni Commies won't recover from hits by Agni missiles

https://twitter.com/ChampakbhumiaE/stat ... 90818?s=09

Shourya? Anyone know the status of this beast?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dilbu » 19 Jun 2020 23:10

What was the conclusion on the alleged incursion in Arunachal? Did they go back?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Jun 2020 23:11

To those having doubts with confusion in PM speech, here is the link, he is talking about incident in Eastern Ladakh- i.e PP14, I think to a neutral observer he is specifically stating that in that incident Chinese have not come in our territory or captured our post, basically stating LAC status quo. It does mean we are giving up on Aksai Chin. or talking about Pangong Tso area. 1 minute later he clearly refers to attack on LAC. Ajai Shulka and other have clearly played mischief in misinterpreting it. He is the PM and its unfortunate such tricks are happenning.

Last edited by Aditya_V on 19 Jun 2020 23:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Jarita » 19 Jun 2020 23:11

manjgu wrote:Not sure but maybe modi will solve pakistan issue first... then tackle the chini issue ... the picture has just begun... if push comes to shove ..a few concrete bunkers dont count for much inside a deep gorge ...


Conflict with both our neighbors for ancient and historical reasons is inevitable. What is important is that it should be at a time of our own choosing. Is this our choice? We will not know.
I hope we will be able to consolidate our stance on territories within the existing LAC and perhaps regain some strategic areas.
Please study the Vietnam and PLA conflict in 1979. We are much more powerful.
Let us wait and watch but please do not become naysayers at this juncture. Look at the all party meet - other than Congress party which is still sowing seeds of doubt and behaving like outsiders to who India is accountable, every other party has committed unequivocal support. So must we.


Even at a time like this they cannot stand with India. There is always a BUT

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1273972680526491648
Last edited by Jarita on 19 Jun 2020 23:16, edited 1 time in total.

AshishA
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 19 Jun 2020 23:14

Manish_Sharma wrote:
YashG wrote:If prc lobs srbm missiles into indias population centres - what will we do immediately? Its good to know our options.



Here is China population density map, most population dense areas are under coverage of
:rotfl:
1. Agony 3 (2.5 Ton Payload)
2. Agony 5 (1 Ton Payload)

Cheeni Commies won't recover from hits by Agni missiles

https://twitter.com/ChampakbhumiaE/stat ... 90818?s=09


I had read a fictional Novel by an American author who was a retired Navy man. It was a novel centred on Indo China war in which USA plays the mediator and eventually saves the day by preventing nuclear war between us. It had taken pretty artistic liberties but had been quite realistic too.

In that book, a threat was issued to China that if they start attacking our civilian centres then we will destroy the three gorges dam which would have devastating effect on Chinese national defense and create huge loss of lives.

My question is that do we have the capability to destroy the dam? Lastly, can it be a substitute to nuclear weapons in case china decides to threaten us with it?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby debadutta » 19 Jun 2020 23:15

Balakot happened 14/15 days after Pulwama. hope to see something similar.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Jun 2020 23:18

jpremnath wrote:
And the decision to order police riot gear for the forces is totally shocking to be honest. How is it going to affect the morale of troops?


Here's the next tweet from same person:

Re: last tweet, must clarify, after getting inputs, riot gear for troops was brought in post 15 May 2020 to protect them from any repeat of earlier incidents and not after events at Galwan. There is no ambiguity on ground that the situation has changed.

https://twitter.com/bsdhanoa/status/127 ... 30985?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby naruto » 19 Jun 2020 23:24

LakshmanPST wrote:The map uploaded by Reuters is correct and matches with the LAC on Google Earth...
But the MARKED-UP LAC IN RED IS WRONG IN THIS PHOTO...

The confluence shown here is NOT the confluence of Shyok and Galwan rivers... It is the confluence of Galwan river and a rivulet...
This confluence point is 5 km to the East of the Shyok and Galwan confluence...
The person who uploaded the pic would have got confused between the two confluence points...

The so called 'DBO' marked in this photo is Galwan River...

I hope it puts everyone's doubts to rest...

ldev wrote:This is the Reuters satellite photo of June 16, the day after the clash. The red dots are Chinese vehicles, structures. Look at the map scale and see the distance to the first cluster of red dots. The second big red cluster of 100 PLA vehicles is where the LAC is. So yes, that major PLA force is where the LAC is, 4-5 km away. The purple dots are Indian vehicles and positions.

You are absolutely correct. The joining of the rivulet with Galwan where it takes a west turn, is patrol point PP 14. The skirmish took place here.

https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1273 ... 03936?s=20

This twitter thread by Australian analyst (Aus strategic policy institute ASPI) has good resolution satellite imagery and very clearly shows chinese and Indian positions at Galwan, Hotsprings and Pangong. The view of Shyok-Galwan confluence from ridgeline at PP14 is the best illustrated in his 3D images. He also wrote an article for ASPI which is mentioned in his first tweet.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby naruto » 19 Jun 2020 23:41

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/12 ... 83073?s=20

These sat images by @detresfa_ show the positions pre and post skirmish at PP14. PP14 is important because it gives a line of sight to the other side, its like on sitting on a 90 degree bend. Col Babu and his men sacrificed their lives pushing Chinese away from PP 14 at Galwan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Jun 2020 23:41

YashG wrote:
Instead of posturing, we should rather ready ourselves of war, if SRBMs come knocking in our cities - we need to be ready.


10 Agni 3 carrying nuclear payload

10 Agni 5 carrying nuclear payload

Half of AGNIs Warheads peppered with 100 kilos of Cobalt 60

Rest Half of AGNIs Warheads peppered with 100 kilo "Gold isotopes 197"

Even if 2 out of 20 missiles succeeded Chinese land is finished for thousands of years.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 19 Jun 2020 23:41

----POST DELETED----
Last edited by Rakesh on 20 Jun 2020 00:26, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Trolling

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 20 Jun 2020 00:00

Aditya_V wrote:To those having doubts with confusion in PM speech, here is the link, he is talking about incident in Eastern Ladakh- i.e PP14, I think to a neutral observer he is specifically stating that in that incident Chinese have not come in our territory or captured our post, basically stating LAC status quo. It does mean we are giving up on Aksai Chin. or talking about Pangong Tso area. 1 minute later he clearly refers to attack on LAC. Ajai Shulka and other have clearly played mischief in misinterpreting it. He is the PM and its unfortunate such tricks are happenning.



Key word RANANEETI at 8;12 in the speech. If you have left it unnoticed all jingos need to stop commenting on what PM AND IA MUST DO. Go revisit the clip at 8:12

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 20 Jun 2020 00:01

Iyersan wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:To those having doubts with confusion in PM speech, here is the link, he is talking about incident in Eastern Ladakh- i.e PP14, I think to a neutral observer he is specifically stating that in that incident Chinese have not come in our territory or captured our post, basically stating LAC status quo. It does mean we are giving up on Aksai Chin. or talking about Pangong Tso area. 1 minute later he clearly refers to attack on LAC. Ajai Shulka and other have clearly played mischief in misinterpreting it. He is the PM and its unfortunate such tricks are happenning.



Key word RANANEETI at 8;12 in the speech. If you have left it unnoticed all jingos need to stop commenting on what PM AND IA MUST DO. Go revisit the clip at 8:12


Or in this clip at -1:11

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 20 Jun 2020 00:18

So what has happened is that China has converted the overlapping zone between Indian and Chinese LAC perception lines into permanent Chinese territory. So yes, technically China has not entered India (Indian land lying beyond their earlier LAC perception), but it is a fact that India has permanently lost the buffer land which was lying earlier between 2 overlapping LAC claims. In my opinion, this is loss of Indian land, but atleast going forward China cannot push further since India has built-up defences from this point onwards.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 20 Jun 2020 00:19

manjgu wrote: 4) there is no denying that govt has been given a thapad by the chini .

Please elaborate on the bolded part as the PM says otherwise.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 20 Jun 2020 00:21

Thank You Aditya for posting the PM's speech. Greatly appreciated.

Some on BRF wait for crises like this to crop up and then push their agenda.

Just one clarification in your post below....

Did you mean to say "It does *NOT* mean we are giving up on Aksai Chin or or talking about Pangong Tso area."

Aditya_V wrote:To those having doubts with confusion in PM speech, here is the link, he is talking about incident in Eastern Ladakh- i.e PP14, I think to a neutral observer he is specifically stating that in that incident Chinese have not come in our territory or captured our post, basically stating LAC status quo. It does mean we are giving up on Aksai Chin. or talking about Pangong Tso area. 1 minute later he clearly refers to attack on LAC. Ajai Shulka and other have clearly played mischief in misinterpreting it. He is the PM and its unfortunate such tricks are happening.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 20 Jun 2020 00:24

Sanju wrote:
manjgu wrote: 4) there is no denying that govt has been given a thapad by the chini .

Please elaborate on the bolded part as the PM says otherwise.

Unfortunately he will not be able to elaborate, because he has been banned for one month for making that asinine comment.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 20 Jun 2020 00:29

PM Modi didn’t say much of anything - very mixed messaging.

By saying Chinese aren’t occupying any Indian land or posts, he left room for himself to back off - but he didn’t close the door to further escalations.

Not sure what’s going on. Maybe he wants to keep the deployment going for a few months, force the Chinese to hold their lines over the Winter. No peace, no war.

Added Later: Or maybe the Chinese communicated that they wanted some certainty on Aksai Chin & that could become a basis for a border deal.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby hemant_sai » 20 Jun 2020 00:48

There was no need to take shortcut and over simplify things. I think people of India would not mind if PM had taken more than hour to inform the truth as it happened.

Honestly, there are clear signs that something is still kept under the carpet for sheer projection that things can't go wrong with BJP in power.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sumair » 20 Jun 2020 00:52

Wow!!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1273892257557393408 ---> Only a lioness can give birth to a Lion. Jai Hind, Jai Hind Ki Sena.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 20 Jun 2020 00:55

Honestly, if what happened at Galwan had happened at Finger 4 a month ago, maybe that Finger 4 build up would not have happened. And the only reason Galwan happened was because troops were so upset at the loss of a CO, they disobeyed orders and took the fight to the other side.

If nothing else, I hope this results in long term changes to the way India does national defense policy in all spheres.
Last edited by khan on 20 Jun 2020 00:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby LakshmanPST » 20 Jun 2020 00:55

There is one point most of us are unfortunately missing and got lost in narrative building by enemies--->
How do we know that the clash that happened on Monday is an ambush...??? Neither Govt. nor Army has said that it is an ambush...

All Govt. said was that China tried to alter the status quo and Indian Army prevented that, due to which clash happened and soldiers died on both sides...
There is a hell lot of difference between soldiers getting killed in an ambush and soldiers dying while fighting...
Even in today's speech Modi was clear that those 20 soldiers died while fighting...

I see two problems with this Ambush narrative:-
1) By repeating again and again everywhere that our soldiers got killed in an ambush, I feel we are actually letting the Army and the soldiers down who fought valiantly before dying... We are not giving proper recognition to the fact that they fought...

2) Also, there is another problem with this ambush narrative...
We did Balakot strikes becoz. soldiers were killed in a suicide attack in Pulwama... But we wouldn't have asked for a similar response had the soldiers died in some border firing while killing equal no. of Pakistanis...
There is a difference between the two events...
I feel unnecessary pressure is being created on the Govt. by the opposition (and unknowingly by general public) to escalate things with China...
----
As of now, all I see is that China tried to intimidate us by show of force and possibly push the LAC a bit further...
We responded by an equal show of force and stand-off is currently going on...
The only major incidents that happened are:-
1) At Pangong Tso, they prevented us from patrolling upto Finger 8 and limited us to Finger 4 only (for which talks are still on).
2) At Galwan, they tried to push the LAC and we stopped them after a bloody fight.

They haven't changed the status quo anywhere else...
-
I feel all of us need to relax a bit and think through all this...
Right now, Govt.'s priority is return of Status quo...
Things will escalate only if China doesn't back off now... And we have already proved them this Monday what will happen if they try to push LAC again... That message reached the right people there...
Let Govt. and Armed Forces handle it... And I trust them to handle it...

All we can do is not to get carried away by PsyOps from usual suspects...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby MeshaVishwas » 20 Jun 2020 00:58

Yes, GoI handling the situation and especially MEA (in)action left a bad taste in the mouth.
Hopefully facts are put to the fore in the years ahead.
Any clips of RM briefing the members? That would at least give us something more to go on...else back to Shiv Aroor breaking news Shinkansen edition and Shook Law's "slit eyed Chinaman on the outskirts of Bengaluru, Kerala".

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mort Walker » 20 Jun 2020 01:01

hemant_sai wrote:There was no need to take shortcut and over simplify things. I think people of India would not mind if PM had taken more than hour to inform the truth as it happened.

Honestly, there are clear signs that something is still kept under the carpet for sheer projection that things can't go wrong with BJP in power.


The public wants revenge for the loss of life and territory. Pure and simple. Only on BRF are we interested in the details. The PM's address was for the public to assuage them that everything will be alright, because that is what national leaders do.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby naruto » 20 Jun 2020 01:01

The Chinese have released a statement now, after PM's speech.

https://twitter.com/ChinaSpox_India/sta ... 32609?s=20

"#Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian gave a step-by-step account of the #Galwan valley clash and elaborated #China's position on settling this incident. Please read the full text by the following link. https://bit.ly/2NiWAY5 "

We should put out our version of events clearly.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 20 Jun 2020 01:06

Larry Walker wrote:So what has happened is that China has converted the overlapping zone between Indian and Chinese LAC perception lines into permanent Chinese territory. So yes, technically China has not entered India (Indian land lying beyond their earlier LAC perception), but it is a fact that India has permanently lost the buffer land which was lying earlier between 2 overlapping LAC claims. In my opinion, this is loss of Indian land, but atleast going forward China cannot push further since India has built-up defences from this point onwards.


I looked at the maps and I think i was wrong in my assessment. The confluence of Shyok and Galwan is at approx - 34.757823 , 78.169522 - and the map posted earlier with red (Chinese positions) and purple (Indian positions) dots is about 4+ km east of this point at approx - 34.769180 , 78 213210 - which looks very similar to the confluence but is actually an almost 90° bend in flow of Galwan river. So we hopefully did not loose any land in Galwan valley. Now if we can push Chinese permanent structures back to finger-8 in Pangong lake area, then we are status quo.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 20 Jun 2020 01:08

I am sure the Chinese Spox statement will reflect the truth and nothing but the truth as in their Wuhan Virus numbers.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Primus » 20 Jun 2020 01:09

There are too many people even here on BRF who seem to be part of the 'saboot gang'. It is disturbing that Rakshaks can doubt the intent of the present leadership both in civilian office and in the armed forces. The process of Chini incursion has been going on since 1962 or even earlier, it takes a while to reverse the enormous errors of Banditji and his heirs. I am old enough to remember those terrible times. Fortunately, Major Shaitan Singh's spirit is still alive and Col. Babu is evidence enough of that.

I think we need to believe our soldiers and their officers are smart and they are brave. So is the political leadership today. Patience therefore has to be a virtue we must all adopt.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mort Walker » 20 Jun 2020 01:11

Posted the Chinese FM version here:

On June 19, 2020, Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Zhao Lijian gave a step-by-step account of the Galwan clash and elaborated China's position on settling this incident.

Zhao Lijian pointed out that the Galwan Valley is located on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control in the west section of the China-India boundary. For many years, the Chinese border troops have been patrolling and on duty in this region. Since April this year, the Indian border troops have unilaterally and continuously built roads, bridges and other facilities at the LAC in the Galwan Valley. China has lodged representations and protests on multiple occasions but India has gone even further to cross the LAC and make provocations. By the early morning of May 6, the Indian border troops, who have crossed the LAC by night and trespassed into China's territory, have built fortification and barricades, which impeded the patrol of Chinese border troops They deliberately made provocations in an attempt to unilaterally change the status quo of control and management. The Chinese border troops have been forced to take necessary measures to respond to the situation on the ground and strengthen management and control in the border areas.

In order to ease the situation, China and India have stayed in close communication through military and diplomatic channels. In response to the strong demand of the Chinese side, India agreed to withdraw the personnel who crossed the LAC and demolish the facilities, and so they did. On June 6, the border troops of both countries held a commander-level meeting and reached consensus on easing the situation. The Indian side promised that they would not cross the estuary of the Galwan river to patrol and build facilities and the two sides would discuss and decide phased withdrawal of troops through the meetings between commanders on the ground.

Shockingly, on the evening of June 15, India's front-line troops, in violation of the agreement reached at the commander-level meeting, once again crossed the Line of Actual Control for deliberate provocation when the situation in the Galwan Valley was already easing, and even violently attacked the Chinese officers and soldiers who went there for negotiation, thus triggering fierce physical conflicts and causing casualties. The adventurous acts of the Indian army have seriously undermined the stability of the border areas, threatened the lives of Chinese personnel, violated the agreements reached between the two countries on the border issue, and breached the basic norms governing international relations. China has lodged solemn representations and strong protests to the Indian side.

During State Councilor and Foreign Minister Wang Yi's phone conversation with External Affairs Minister Dr. S. Jaishankar, he repeated China's stern position, demanding India to carry out a thorough investigation into the incident, severely punish those who should be held accountable, strictly discipline Indian frontline troops, and immediately stop all provocative actions so as to ensure that such incidents do not happen again. A second commander-level meeting should happen as soon as possible to deal with the situation on the ground. The two sides agreed to handle in a just manner the serious situation caused by the Galwan Valley clash, observe the agreement reached during the commander-level meeting, cool down the situation on the ground as soon as possible, and uphold peace and tranquility of the border areas in accordance with bilateral agreements reached so far.

China hopes that India will work with us, follow faithfully the important consensus reached between the two leaders, abide by the agreements reach between the two governments, and strengthen communication and coordination on properly managing the current situation through diplomatic and military channels, and jointly uphold peace and stability in the border areas.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mukhi » 20 Jun 2020 01:17

Primus wrote:There are too many people even here on BRF who seem to be part of the 'saboot gang'. It is disturbing that Rakshaks can doubt the intent of the present leadership both in civilian office and in the armed forces. The process of Chini incursion has been going on since 1962 or even earlier, it takes a while to reverse the enormous errors of Banditji and his heirs. I am old enough to remember those terrible times. Fortunately, Major Shaitan Singh's spirit is still alive and Col. Babu is evidence enough of that.

I think we need to believe our soldiers and their officers are smart and they are brave. So is the political leadership today. Patience therefore has to be a virtue we must all adopt.


Interesting times ahead.

China at the Border and situation tense. NaMo just came on TV and basically told Chinese that we are ready.

I am #WithNaMo .

Its time we teach these Chinese a lesson.

As they say - Some Goals are so worthy, it glorious to die trying for them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 20 Jun 2020 01:22

Still the events on night of 15-Jun do not make sense from Chinese perspective - I still cannot understand what were they trying to achieve. Multiple sources have mentioned Shaolin swords and spears were used by Chinese and attack was almost simultaneous upon atleast few or more Indian patrols - which indicates sectorwide planning and coordination - so atleast HQ at some level was involved - it could not be a rogue Chinese party.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 20 Jun 2020 01:24

There is an interesting paradox created by the Chinese occupation of gray zone in F4 to F8.

We either military challenge them or diplomatically. Diplomatically Chinese will say it their LAC claim line so they have solidified their position.

So fundamentally what this means is the Chinese have set a precedent for either side to move in to Gray Zone areas and set up permanent position.

If India did not militarily respond to Pangong occupation, Chinese will be in a catch 22 situation. If it tries to militarily evict us, it will trigger a corresponding military response from us on the Pangong lake occupation.

If it doesn't because we didn't.... :D

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 20 Jun 2020 01:25

Chinese have set an open season for Indian Salami slicing. It now needs to man every metre of LAC or watch India use it's own tactics...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 20 Jun 2020 01:25

Mukhi wrote:
Interesting times ahead.

China at the Border and situation tense. NaMo just came on TV and basically told Chinese that we are ready.

I am #WithNaMo .

Its time we teach these Chinese a lesson.

As they say - Some Goals are so worthy, it glorious to die trying for them.

To me it sounded like he was backing off the Fingers (no Indian territory or posts are currently occupied), but standing his ground everywhere else.

The Chinese response seemed to say that they want Galwan too, but are scared of the bloodthirsty Biharis on the other side.

But that speech could mean anything, PM Modi is very hard to read. It very impressive how he is reassuring a Nation, while saying nothing or giving away anything about his thought process.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 20 Jun 2020 01:27

Larry Walker wrote:Still the events on night of 15-Jun do not make sense from Chinese perspective - I still cannot understand what were they trying to achieve. Multiple sources have mentioned Shaolin swords and spears were used by Chinese and attack was almost simultaneous upon atleast few or more Indian patrols - which indicates sectorwide planning and coordination - so atleast HQ at some level was involved - it could not be a rogue Chinese party.


Bas kar kake Bacche ki jaan lega kya? Unka mann kiya to kiya.

Ye Shaolin wala khahani kahan suna Kerala- Bengaluru mein?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 20 Jun 2020 01:30

https://twitter.com/shivaroor/status/12 ... 40261?s=21

Shiv Aroor effectively states we don’t have control over finger 4 to 8.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby shaun » 20 Jun 2020 01:41

I guess we need to wait for few weeks ... PM's speech what ever he is telling is in contrast to EAM's telephonic call..

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KSingh » 20 Jun 2020 01:42

Sumair wrote:Wow!!

https://twitter.com/i/status/1273892257557393408 ---> Only a lioness can give birth to a Lion. Jai Hind, Jai Hind Ki Sena.


Undoubtedly true that these families and their sons are from a reality most of us cannot even comprehend. Willing to sacrifice so much for something that many postmodernists would consider arbitrary and trivial (nation states).

As the PM has said the sacrifices of these brave brave men will not be forgotten and they went down as warriors one and all.


Let the cooling down reveal that those that are displaying grief at the situation are NOT casting doubt on these men or their actions nor do they doubt, I’m sure, the abilities of them or their million plus service members who will be willing to go in their place and do the same task.


The issue is what now?


This is one of the most fair Western commentators on indian strategic affairs:
https://twitter.com/cold_peace_/status/ ... 57218?s=21


One has to understand that China is playing a very specific and targeted game. They are playing 4D chess, perhaps as a distraction or perhaps some in their strategic leadership saw a very unique set of circumstances and dusted off pre-made plans?


By keeping the fight sub-conventional they have left India with very very few options unless India wants to be the aggressor and be the one that escalates.


Going by recent sat imagery it seems the status quo has been forever changed, we just need to be honest and accept that.

https://twitter.com/cold_peace_/status/ ... 11328?s=21



Again, this is a tight bind for India and I don’t think any nation on earth including even America could do much more against an expansionist power who has the kind of tight internal controls on its populace that the CCP does. A status quo seeking power such as India will ALWAYS be on the defensive and always be at risk of this kind of salami slicing. The best India can do is try its best to ensure that the Chinese cannot take another inch of indian settled land but again all the initiative is with the Chinese and they’ll attack on their terms where they find it most favourable.



Long term all India can do is work with others (not advocating becoming anyone’s poodle- India needs to be its OWN power) and bring about the end of the PRC, this is a generational battle make no mistake about it. Most in the West don’t see it like that as of now but the writing is on the wall.

The economy is now the utmost priority, so WHATEVER needs to be done to get GDP growth booming, get whatever MNCs are flowing out of China and pump what can be reasonably accommodated into defence and be ready for when the balloon goes up- It will be unlike anything humanity has ever seen and sadly India is in a horrific postion with Pakistan on one side and China on the other. Defence needs to be India’s number 1/2/3/4/etc priority. This should be made clear to the populace, this is a fight for survival.


The world will one day look back and commend India for its strength and backbone in light of the neighbourhood it finds itself in. No country in history has been faced with such a perilous strategic dilemma. Be strong, be free and be everything those commie rats are not.

YashG
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby YashG » 20 Jun 2020 01:44

Iyersan wrote:
Iyersan wrote:
Key word RANANEETI at 8;12 in the speech. If you have left it unnoticed all jingos need to stop commenting on what PM AND IA MUST DO. Go revisit the clip at 8:12


Or in this clip at -1:11


We are reading too much into this video - it neither confirms nor denies anything. Its meant to be like this - it gives Modi to choose his time/place of action - gives no details. These are general assurances- sovereignty, defending every inch. Confirms nothing! we're making hope our judgment. Even if Govt is planning something - this speech would be last to signal anything.

Only because we're angry and raring for action - doenst mean we need to read things that aint in this speech. It merely signals that govt is onto it and I fully expect that we will see action ( economic or military - idk).

---------------
Secondly we lost soldiers and we are all angry but we cant fit narratives to comfort us and make us feel better - impairs our judgment. I saw several narrative have been put up - while any of them could be true but we can dissect each of those to our scrutiny instead of just hoping the one that calms our heart the most is true. whether "43" or "5-10" chinese KIAs - doesnt matter except for pysops and optics. Whether we were betrayed by Chinese or impaired by ROEs or outwitted in intelligence or politically impaired - the truth is this fight didnt go "entirely" well for us. You can argue the same for Chinese too. totally! But like Balakot the aggressor looks better, even if the action's efficacy is debated. Balakot was our victory, our display of superiority, even if every single bomb failed. We jolted the paki establishment.

Now China is doing the same to us. Only a true escalation can do the same to China. True escalation is costly ( i think only 20% chance, even less). But I see no other way. If we accept the status quo, then Chinese will bring their circus to town every second season.

Lets book our losses and be pragmatic about whats about to happen.

#1 We dont know and probably wont know what we traded for our soldiers during negotiations. Its the most important variable - beacuse future action will depend upon what happened and got traded on table. ( Multiple theories have been put up, but jury is out)
#2 The action we all want to see is so so dependent upon #1
#3 Till Chinese do not do another aggression, I feel things will go into a lull.

We may not like it or hope for it - But only true escalation will give us a permament or long term elimination from Chinese threat.

Larry Walker
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 20 Jun 2020 01:44

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
Bas kar kake Bacche ki jaan lega kya? Unka mann kiya to kiya.

Ye Shaolin wala khahani kahan suna Kerala- Bengaluru mein?


Yaar Tuesday morning se DKMKB (d==dimaag) kar rakha hai yeh Chiniyon ne ... Isiliye Friday evening baith ke soch raha hoon..kya mila yeh sab karke in chachundaron ko ??!!


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